Which “current affairs” are you referring too here? Personally I don’t get the feeling of him using current affairs at all until the 1978 letters and even then it’s not to bolster his image. IF him, those just sound like he’s been gone a while and is trying to be relevant. Or is it the reference to Snoozy and Furlong? Which some people think he’s responsible for. Then he wouldn’t be using current affairs, he’d be using his affairs.

They are numerous but to mention a few:-

Exorcist letter
Mailing to Belli
Reference to Gas chamber and TV in 340 cipher
Period of Manson connection with Beatles quotes and wearing all black at LB
Badlands letter
Riverside connection letter
Blank panther / Peace buttons

Richard, correct me if I am wrong, I gather that you don’t believe that Snoozy or Furlong were Zodiac victims, as he took credit for those victims after the Stine murder, but Bilek was a Zodiac victim?

All three were attributed to Karl F Werner, he pled guilty and currently incarcerated for their murders. He was arrested in April 1971 and sentenced in Sept 1971.

Richard, correct me if I am wrong, I gather that you don’t believe that Snoozy or Furlong were Zodiac victims, as he took credit for those victims after the Stine murder, but Bilek was a Zodiac victim?

No, none of them were Zodiac victims, he initially claimed Snoozy & Furlong by way of "Aug" on November 8th 1969. When Karl Francis Werner was arrested and charged for Snoozy & Furlong, along with Kathy Bilek, Zodiac had three choices [1] Keep quiet [2] Admit he was a liar, or [3] Now claim all three victims off Werner. He chose the latter. On about May 2nd 1971 he called Werner a phony and threatened to kill 3 more kids. Then on July 13th 1971 he claimed Kathy Bilek in the Monticello card. She was murdered in the Villa Montalvo woods, in April, near Monticello (which was 9 miles east and the burial site of Kathie Snoozy). Monticello was not only a clue to his previously claimed victims throughout the name "Kathy", but was a further clue to the identity of Bilek in the Monticello card. But although Zodiac was attempting to claim all three, he was responsible for none, blowing away the argument all the crimes he claimed were unsolved.

In answer to "TheDude", I do believe he was familiar with San Jose, it featured heavily throughout his communications. It really wouldn’t be that difficult to visit Oak Hill Memorial Park & Cemetry and discover the neighbourhood of Monticello, and then use it as a clue. The Monticello card bound all three victims together, and was extremely cleverly designed. Debra Furlong was Los Gatos. In the next podcast I will bring up how the solved Z148 mirrors the then unsolved 340 cipher, strongly suggesting this letter & cipher in 1971 was Zodiac.

Richard, correct me if I am wrong, I gather that you don’t believe that Snoozy or Furlong were Zodiac victims, as he took credit for those victims after the Stine murder, but Bilek was a Zodiac victim?

No, none of them were Zodiac victims, he initially claimed Snoozy & Furlong by way of "Aug" on November 8th 1969. When Karl Francis Werner was arrested and charged for Snoozy & Furlong, along with Kathy Bilek, Zodiac had three choices [1] Keep quiet [2] Admit he was a liar, or [3] Now claim all three victims off Werner. He chose the latter. On about May 2nd 1971 he called Werner a phony and threatened to kill 3 more kids. Then on July 13th 1971 he claimed Kathy Bilek in the Monticello card. She was murdered in the Villa Montalvo woods, in April, near Monticello (which was 9 miles east and the burial site of Kathie Snoozy). Monticello was not only a clue to his previously claimed victims throughout the name "Kathy", but was a further clue to the identity of Bilek in the Monticello card. But although Zodiac was attempting to claim all three, he was responsible for none, blowing away the argument all the crimes he claimed were unsolved.

In answer to "TheDude", I do believe he was familiar with San Jose, it featured heavily throughout his communications. It really wouldn’t be that difficult to visit Oak Hill Memorial Park & Cemetry and discover the neighbourhood of Monticello, and then use it as a clue. The Monticello card bound all three victims together, and was extremely cleverly designed. Debra Furlong was Los Gatos. In the next podcast I will bring up how the solved Z148 mirrors the then unsolved 340 cipher, strongly suggesting this letter & cipher in 1971 was Zodiac.

Also by using”April” he could also have been alluding to the arrest of Werner.

Yes, Werner’s arrest was covered by Paul Avery. On April 29th 1971, Karl Francis Werner was arrested for the murders of Kathy Snoozy, Deborah Furlong and Kathy Bilek, and his story was covered by Paul Avery on April 30th 1971 under the title of San Jose Student Held in Slaying of Three Girls. The newspaper article stated "He was immediately advised of his rights concerning any statements he may make and legal representation to which he is entitled, the detectives said. Werner was then taken to the scenes of the crimes. Late yesterday he was undergoing questioning. The detectives would not reveal what statements, if any, he had made concerning the killings of the three girls".

The article stated that Werner was being questioned for the murders of Snoozy, Furlong & Bilek, so it’s no surprise that Zodiac would fire off another letter (I have calculated early May 1971), enciphering the words "Stop listening t(o) phonys". He was saying Werner was a phony and he was their killer. It is also no surprise, in view of the newspaper article title of San Jose Student Held in Slaying of Three Girls that he would promise to "skin 3 little kids".

Yes, Werner’s arrest was covered by Paul Avery. On April 29th 1971, Karl Francis Werner was arrested for the murders of Kathy Snoozy, Deborah Furlong and Kathy Bilek, and his story was covered by Paul Avery on April 30th 1971 under the title of San Jose Student Held in Slaying of Three Girls. The newspaper article stated "He was immediately advised of his rights concerning any statements he may make and legal representation to which he is entitled, the detectives said. Werner was then taken to the scenes of the crimes. Late yesterday he was undergoing questioning. The detectives would not reveal what statements, if any, he had made concerning the killings of the three girls".

The article stated that Werner was being questioned for the murders of Snoozy, Furlong & Bilek, so it’s no surprise that Zodiac would fire off another letter (I have calculated early May 1971), enciphering the words "Stop listening t(o) phonys". He was saying Werner was a phony and he was their killer. It is also no surprise, in view of the newspaper article title of San Jose Student Held in Slaying of Three Girls that he would promise to "skin 3 little kids".

This leads to the question of whether this could be one of the major contributing factors for his apparent lack of communication for 3 years. The whole Werner affair showed him to be what was, a fraud (at this point in time), he was attempting to ride on the coat tails of others.

I’m talking in the looses term but this would have seriously brought his credibility into doubt. Thus contributing to his fall from grace.

Yes Craigle, he may have made one last attempt in 1971, but we have a lack of verified and unverified communications between the end of 1971 and 1974, with the Novato & Albany letter two notable exceptions. Although, we don’t know for certain he didn’t mail many communications in 1972 and 1973, but they were all written off as hoaxes, either correctly or incorrectly. I am fairly confident the Albany letter was Zodiac. However, 1971 wouldn’t be the final time he laid claim to victims which he may not have been responsible for.

Which “current affairs” are you referring too here? Personally I don’t get the feeling of him using current affairs at all until the 1978 letters and even then it’s not to bolster his image. IF him, those just sound like he’s been gone a while and is trying to be relevant. Or is it the reference to Snoozy and Furlong? Which some people think he’s responsible for. Then he wouldn’t be using current affairs, he’d be using his affairs.

They are numerous but to mention a few:-

Exorcist letter
Mailing to Belli
Reference to Gas chamber and TV in 340 cipher
Period of Manson connection with Beatles quotes and wearing all black at LB
Badlands letter
Riverside connection letter
Blank panther / Peace buttons

I see where you are going. We were talking about Snoozy and Furlong when this came up so I thought we were talking about bolstering his image (as an evil killer, not just a guy living in the 70s) by taking credit for attacks that were in the newspaper.

And I was wrong. I can admit it. there was the mention of killing a man with a.38 (Officer Radetich) and the reference to Donna Lass. Two more killings to help his numbers.

And at the risk of embarrassing myself, I have serious reservations about if Werner did those crimes. Seems extremely young to be that violent and seemingly out of nowhere. There are other reasons as well. I would like to know the details of what happened while in police custody.

Richard, respectfully I think you might be missing my point. How would he have known the neighborhood is called Monticello? Simply driving there wouldn’t do it. So did he ask someone which neighborhood is this? Seems odd. To me, common sense would say that he was already familiar with the community and the different neighborhood names in the city of San Jose. Not something a person living in Vallejo would likely be familiar with. Unless the neighborhood of Monticello was so popular that people around the bay knew of it? I’m familiar with the area. Have had family live in San Jose. Great friend still lives there, went to his wedding which was held at Villa Montalvo, and I couldn’t tell you about Monticello. But I bet they might. That’s my point.

Yes, I get what you are saying. He may very well be familiar with San Jose. He could have worked or lived there at some point. Maybe he went to a funeral at the Oak Hill Memorial Park? Who knows, but it would be one hell of a coincidence to choose Monticello on that card, and by doing so, accidentally select a location of a victim he’d previously claimed on November 8th 1969, while simultaneously identifying the April and Woods of the Villa Montalvo woods from the April 11th 1971 murder of Kathy Bilek, all under the banner of one serial killer. The chances of that are practically zero. It’s clear that Zodiac was desperately trying to keep the Snoozy & Furlong murders in his victim total, by attempting to claim Bilek as well. That is the reason he chose Monticello, not only because Kathy Snoozy (spelled in newspapers) was the namesake of Kathy Bilek, but by calling Werner a phony. The Zodiac Killer could have chosen the burial site of Debra Furlong, but no linkage exists in the name, which is why he chose Monticello and the burial site of Kathy Snoozy. There is also (possibly) a threat on the Furlong family by Zodiac, which I will expand upon in an upcoming podcast on May 8th.

And at the risk of embarrassing myself, I have serious reservations about if Werner did those crimes. Seems extremely young to be that violent and seemingly out of nowhere. There are other reasons as well. I would like to know the details of what happened while in police custody.

Vulnerable people being pressured into confessing to crimes they did not commit is far from unheard of, especially in the days before fairer and transparent police procedures.

Yes, I get what you are saying. He may very well be familiar with San Jose. He could have worked or lived there at some point. Maybe he went to a funeral at the Oak Hill Memorial Park? Who knows, but it would be one hell of a coincidence to choose Monticello on that card, and by doing so, accidentally select a location of a victim he’d previously claimed on November 8th 1969, while simultaneously identifying the April and Woods of the Villa Montalvo woods from the April 11th 1971 murder of Kathy Bilek, all under the banner of one serial killer. The chances of that are practically zero. It’s clear that Zodiac was desperately trying to keep the Snoozy & Furlong murders in his victim total, by attempting to claim Bilek as well. That is the reason he chose Monticello, not only because Kathy Snoozy (spelled in newspapers) was the namesake of Kathy Bilek, but by calling Werner a phony. The Zodiac Killer could have chosen the burial site of Debra Furlong, but no linkage exists in the name, which is why he chose Monticello and the burial site of Kathy Snoozy. There is also (possibly) a threat on the Furlong family by Zodiac, which I will expand upon in an upcoming podcast on May 8th.

For what it’s worth, I think you’re right. About the card.

And at the risk of embarrassing myself, I have serious reservations about if Werner did those crimes. Seems extremely young to be that violent and seemingly out of nowhere. There are other reasons as well. I would like to know the details of what happened while in police custody.

Evil and/or insanity, and the capacity to act out violently as a result of either, does not have an age requirement.
Ted Bundy is theorized by many in law enforcement to have committed his first murder at the age of 14.
Edmund Kemper killed his grandparents, quite violently, at the age of 15.

Are you honestly falling back on the old trope "the cops coerced the confession" in Werner’s case?

And at the risk of embarrassing myself, I have serious reservations about if Werner did those crimes. Seems extremely young to be that violent and seemingly out of nowhere. There are other reasons as well. I would like to know the details of what happened while in police custody.

Evil and/or insanity, and the capacity to act out violently as a result of either, does not have an age requirement.
Ted Bundy is theorized by many in law enforcement to have committed his first murder at the age of 14.
Edmund Kemper killed his grandparents, quite violently, at the age of 15.

Are you honestly falling back on the old trope "the cops coerced the confession" in Werner’s case?

Classic, I guess I am. And your argument is as valid as mine.

But to agree with you, I too think young men can kill. I’m researching a guy that did at 17. But the Snoozy/Furlong murder showed… extreme rage. Personally it’s hard for me to believe that was Werner’s first killing. For me, I either think that he’s done it before or he didn’t do it. I mean think about it. His first murder is against TWO people at once!? Two people that he had no beef with? No torturing of animals, no previous run ins with LE, no practicing at all … just out of nowhere he brutally attacked two young girls so badly that they hardly had skin on them. Strange. And then he must have liked it because he did it again (Bilek)? I guess it’s possible, just not probable. Odds really aren’t there. By the way, do you know what Werner’s reasoning was? Does anyone know anything about why he killed those girls? Do you know if he claimed innocence at first? Did the kid have an attorney during questioning? Do you know how long he was questioned? I guess I’m perplexed by why my opinion is somehow less informed than yours.

He had gone though psychiatric treatment in 68 when at 15 he attacked a young woman with a knife in Marlboro, Mass.

He had gone though psychiatric treatment in 68 when at 15 he attacked a young woman with a knife in Marlboro, Mass.

Now that’s interesting. I didn’t know that. I’m going to research it out now. Thank you.