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#	Post Title	Result Info	Date	User	Forum
	YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac	64 Relevance	13 years ago	Zamantha	Zodiac Theories
	Zamantha, Subject: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:02 pm You Tube, where the interviewer feels he is speaking to the Zodiac Killer. The interviewer in this You Tube actually contacted Sandy. He came out to her home to show her the knifes he found. Sandy totally worried me that nite having some strange guy come over with knifes. I made a phone call to check on her once and made her do a check in after he left. I’ll let Sandy tell the story. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:26 pm You Tube, where the interviewer feels he is speaking to the Zodiac Killer. The interviewer in this You Tube actually contacted Sandy. He came out to her home to show her the knifes he found. Sandy totally worried me that nite having some strange guy come over with knifes. I made a phone call to check on her once and made her do a check in after he left. I’ll let Sandy tell the story. This guy lived on Bethel Island. The Coincidence is I have a friend that wants to take me to a home on this extract same street on Bethel Island, to show me a home where someone thought the Z lived. This is something he learned a few years back when he went to buy a boat. Out of curiosity I will go see if it’s the same home. Nin, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:16 pm Who is "Steve"? How did he find "Barry"? Is it possible to get Steve here on morf’s messageboard? Difficult situation with Barry only having 6 weeks to live.. We need handwriting samples, as soon as possible. Barry almost acts guilty of something. But then, we don’t know whether Barry is currently on medication and how much he is connected to reality, just saying. Sandy, can you get Steve to sign up please? -Nin traveller1st, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:48 pm Here are the knives. [flash(425,350)] [/flash] Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:30 pm I learned about this guy last week and spent Saturday morning checking out some of the claims he made about his suspect. The first thing that caught my eye was that Captainfun11 said his suspect abused the corpse of his wife. I checked the marriage records and found the suspect had been married four times. I tracked everyone of the women and none of them died before he did. As a matter of fact three of his wives are still living and the fourth died in 2011, the suspect died in 2009. I wrote a comment asking which wife had her corpse abused as through research I had leartned that all of his wives survived him. My comment was not up very long before he removed it and accussed me of being Tom Voigt. He said in a general comment that Tom Voigt was using varous names to discredit him so he Another thing that Captainfun 11 said was that his suspect was dishonorably discharged from the service. I learned that was not true. At Ancestry.com there are 23 muster rolls for his suspect that show he rose steadily in rank and when he completed his active duty he was admitted to the enlisted reserves. I then posted a comment to his video saying I was not Tom Voigt and that if Captainfun11 did not have an account with Ancestry he should get one and I told him about the muster rolls. Captainfun11 again deleted my comment and blocked me from commenting further. He changed his story though in his comments with the video and said that his suspect had 20 disiplinary actions while in the service. If his suspect did have that many actions against him he would not have risen steadily in the ranks and they would have been reflected in the muster rolls. A day an a half later I received a vile email from him. He posted on my youtube channel and the post was forwarded to me in an email. This is his email to me- AK Wilks, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:33 pm Stay classy, cranky Zodiac hoaxers. Sorry you had to deal with that Seagull Taco Cat! Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:51 pm Thanks AK! I know we’re not immune to the idiots out there but that email was a shocker. I did learn quite a bit about Captainfun11’s suspect. He was an Oakland police officer for over 20 years and I saw nothing that would lead me to believe that he was the Zodiac. I have all his marriages, wives names, kids etc. plus I ahve a few newspaper articles dating back to 1959 if anyone is interested. Though I don’t see the necessity to drag his name out in public over this. After that email from Captainfun11 I learned a bit about him, too. LOL Checking records from the Contra Costa County Recorder’s Office I can see that he did buy a home from his suspect. I also learned that he has an order from a southern California court for child support, I guess he fell behind and the courts had to step in to collect it. He says in his comments on his video that he has a wife and children but I also learned that he is registered at at least one dating site! Google Captainfun1269 to find that. A real charmer……. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:52 pm Just checked with my source on the guy he heard about, a few years back. Got the address. Now to try to find out if the address is the same as this guy’s POI. I’m aware from what he told Sandy, it’s the same street on Bethel Island. Sandy will have to report on his visit to her home, but from what she told me he was very nice and polite and believed he had the right guy, like a lot of people do with their POI’s. I have no idea, but found the two different stories about a Z like guy on the same road on a small island….interesting to learn more. traveller1st, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:03 am I heard enough when the knife video stated they had got blood testing kits off the internet. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:07 am I heard enough when the knife video stated they had got blood testing kits off the internet. I know a few good people on Bethel Island….I will ask around and see what I can learn about this guy….good or bad. It’s a small Island were everyone knows your name…..pretty much so. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:29 am …I know we’re not immune to the idiots out there but that email was a shocker. Geesh! I should say so. Ouch. I wonder if his attidude would change if he knew who you were…or weren’t. Either way, kind of shows someone’s true ways when they post crap like that. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:40 am I know a few good people on Bethel Island….I will ask around and see what I can learn about this guy….good or bad. It’s a small Island were everyone knows your name…..pretty much so. Is it still that way today? My grandparents lived there most of my life. It really grew and last time I was out there I hardly recognized it. Definitely had a small town, country-delta feel back when I was a kid. (miss that) Any idea how long the suspect lived there? Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:46 am Recorders Office records show that the suspect and his second wife bought property there in 1986. He was into boating and belonged to boat/yacht clubs since the late ’60’s. He raced boats on the SF Bay, too. Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:48 am Trave: good one, I was thinking the same thing. :cheers: This is so disheartening; I can’t believe he showed up on that poor guy’s front door grilling him. When the retired cop said we have a fifty eight something… I’m sure that’s there police radio signal for a crazy loon… This guy must be Horan’s mythical twin brother :joker: …someone better take those knives away from him before he hurts someone or himself. Sandy, don’t let a stranger in your home carrying knives… :no: :farao: Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:53 am I know a few good people on Bethel Island….I will ask around and see what I can learn about this guy….good or bad. It’s a small Island were everyone knows your name…..pretty much so. Is it still that way today? My grandparents lived there most of my life. It really grew and last time I was out there I hardly recognized it. Definitely had a small town, country-delta feel back when I was a kid. (miss that) Any idea how long the suspect lived there? I just sent out 5 emails to key BI People. I know nothing on the suspect, just interested me since I heard not one but two possible Z stories on the Island. Yeah, it’s grown…but it’s still small time Delta Town. I go to the island a couple times a month for something. At Christmas time I went to The Scouts Hall to wrap gifts for the poorer children on the island to have Christmas Gifts. There’s the Marina’s, Boat Docks, Restaurants, and of course it has the bar life. Two of my favorite eateries are on the island. Also about 12 or more of my friends keep their boats berthed there. Bethel Island (formerly, Bethell) … LskVRa1bWw Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:58 am Seagull, does it show which Yacht Clubs he belonged to? Daniel G., I agree…I was worried about Sandy that nite! I called her once, and made her check in when he left. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:00 am Seagull, can you PM me his address & I’ll see if it matches the "other" address I have. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:33 am Totally, "Off Topic" But this is one of my favorite places to go by boat on Bethel Island. Shows you some of the water ways & Island in the back ground. Great view of Mt. Diablo in the back ground. Sugar Barge Resort & Marina … USC6sDOOfw Nin, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:45 am Seagull, you never cease to amaze me.. Great research. It’s too bad what some folks are doing to push their suspects. They go to great lengths of accusations based on poor investigation. Thanks for the video, trav. -Nin Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:16 pm Barry did not seem to have trouble with interacting with women, he was married four times after all! He did not trade up for a newer model either but stuck to women his own age, he was born in 1935 and his "youngest" wife was born in 1938. His first wife moved back to her home state of Missouri in the mid ’70’s and it looks like all three of his children also went there around that time. I could find no California addresses for the children, only Missouri. His second wife still lives at Bethel Island. After divorcing Barry she remarried in 1990. His third wife was a high school classmate of his and I don’t know much about his fourth and surviving wife. Barry has owned more than one property at Bethel Island. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:27 pm You Tube, where the interviewer feels he is speaking to the Zodiac Killer. The interviewer in this You Tube actually contacted Sandy. He came out to her home to show her the knifes he found. Sandy totally worried me that nite having some strange guy come over with knifes. I made a phone call to check on her once and made her do a check in after he left. I’ll let Sandy tell the story. It was about 8:30pm when I received a phone call from someone asking if I was thee sandy Betts who investigates the Zodiac case ? I told him yes , he said he believed he had some Zodiac evidence and wanted t show it to me. That it was some knifes and a machete , that he found while demolishing a wall in a home he was buying. There was a woman who spotted the knives and yelled OMG that looks like the knife the Zodiac used ! He didn’t know much about the case, so he read on line about it and found my name to call. He mentioned meeting me at Starbucks. I wasn’t up to driving there and told him he could come to my home. As soon as I hung up , I realised that was a stupid thing to do , to invite a stranger who was brings knives with him to my home ! So I phoned Zamantha and told her that if my body was found the next day , here is the phone number and name of the person who called me ( by the way his last name was smith LOL) Meanwhile I got my gun which I keep loaded, and my mace, and put it next to where I would be sitting while talking to this stranger. Zamantha did panic and said that she would call me in a few minutes to check on me, which she did, and I let her talk to this Mr. Smith guy. He knew some of her friends from one of the clubs she belongs to , so that put us both at ease. Yesterday Zamantha showed me the video , I had to laugh and say that is the Smith guy who came to my home ! This man is passionate about his suspect, just as many of us are about our own. So I listened to why he felt his suspect was a good one. One being that the man had hid these knives in the wall, the other being he was a ex policeman , and that some people felt that Zodiac was at one time in LE, that he had the red/ brown hair at one time and fit the description of the Zodiac ,some valid reasons I think ? (In fact better than some other poi’s.) He told me that he wanted to not only show these knives to me, but a video he took of his suspect . As it turned out, I told him that none of the knives he showed me were like the one used at Lake Berryessa, and I didn’t think the man looked like the Zodiac composite. Poor man had to listen to me tell all about my poi, he ended up leaving at 12:30 am. It was me listening to him for about one hour , him listening to my story for three. He was a very polite and nice man. He offered to help me if I ever need him. Zamantha met someone else who has a suspect on the same road as this Mr. Smith’s suspect, so we think it could be the same poi ? sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:50 pm I would like everyone to know I didn’t read the thread before posting, it was a link that Zamantha sent me, so I could explain how I knew this Mr. Smith. This shows you can’t tell a book by its cover for sure ! Now that I have read the entire thread , this man is not the nice man I thought he was . ( I didn’t like that private email he wrote ) Good investigating Seagull ! To add to this post, I just read Smith’s comments and replies about his video, I can see that he became upset with all the negativity thrown at him. When pushed, I would do the same, as would some of you . But I agree with TV, that he needs to show the handwriting samples , instead of just saying he has been told that the writing samples are a match. He should have also shown the size of that knife that looks like the Lake Berryessa knife, ( it looks like it in the video ) but when I saw it , it was shorter than the actual knife used at Lake B. When anyone is showing such things it is a good idea to have something like a ruler next to it, or something else to compare to. Even though I have my own suspect,whom I like much better, I will look into this poi further along with Zamantha. I do enjoy going to Bethel Island, and digging up anything I can, you never know what it can lead to, even some other poi who knows ? Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:17 pm Seagull, does it show which Yacht Clubs he belonged to? Daniel G., I agree…I was worried about Sandy that nite! I called her once, and made her check in when he left. The information you seek is all in the suspects online obituary! … bLoggedOut Barrett Wysling Obituary Barrett (Barry) Jean Wysling I Feb. 6, 1935 – Oct. 2, 2009 Resident of Bethel Island Born in San Jose, Barry was the only child of Paul and Etta Wysling. A product of the Alameda, California school system, he graduated in the Class of June 1953. In the years to follow Barry was very involved in class reunions and subsequently formed the Hornet web site that increased communication between alumni. Barry’s next stop was the US Marine Corps where he served a tour of duty as a corporal at 29 Palms, CA. He built the first darkroom while being the base photographer and photo journalist in the Base Special Services Section. The following two years were spent at San Francisco City College studying criminology and another year at Oakland City College where prior to graduation, with an AA Degree, he was accepted as an Oakland Police Officer. In 1957 he started a career in law enforcement that lasted 22 ½ years. At OPD Barry served in many capacities that included Patrol, Jail, Communications, Community Relations, Internal Affairs, Criminal Investigation and his first love, Juvenile, where he did two four year tours. Barry served on the Oakland Council for the Boy Scouts and was Post Advisor and Institutional Representative for OPD. While in the police department Juvenile Division, Barry was Officer Friendly for the Romper Room show on Channel 2, KTVU. Barry obtained two lifetime teaching credentials from the State of California vocational educational department and was accredited to teach Police Science and Family Legal Needs and Responsibilities. Barry assisted the Oakland area Red Cross and trained United States Navy life guards for the Oak Knoll Navel Hospital. In 1978 he retired as a Detective Sergeant in the Robbery Section. Barry is the father of three sons: Michael, Bradley, and Jeffery who live in St. Joseph, Missouri with their families. He has two grandsons: Barrett J. II, and Anthony Joseph (AJ); and a granddaughter Barbara Jean. Upon retirement from Oakland, Barry started a new career in marina management by becoming the Harbor Master of Beacon Harbor on Bethel Island for eight years. That was followed by another seven years as Harbor Master for the City of Martinez. Always active in recreational boating, Barry was the Commodore of Encinal Yacht Club in Alameda in 1972 and 1973, and Commodore of the Northern California Power Cruiser Association in 1977. When Barry passed, he was the oldest member of the San Joaquin Yacht Club of Bethel Island, where he and his wife Marguerite joined in 1969. He was also a member of the International Order of the Blue Gavel. Barry was a member of Alameda Elks Club #1015 for approximately ten years, and was a member of the 1995-96 Contra Costa County Civil Grand Jury. Active locally, Barry spent several years on the Bethel Island Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors and was active in the B.I. Marina Owners Association. His participation included photographing various local events like the Meals on Wheels, Safety Fair and Citizen of the Year, to name a few. Barry concluded his Harbor Master carrier at Beacon Harbor as the widower of Marianne Holmes Wysling. He subsequently sold Beacon Harbor and permanently retired in 2005. Recreationally Barry enjoyed underwater photography in Hawaii where he frequently visited, while house/animal sitting for several friends. He also restored nautical artifacts which decorate the home of the San Joaquin Yacht Club, the M/S Sutter. Recently Barry took the opportunity to host his own "Going Away Bash" by inviting many club members, high school classmates, friends and neighbors to a cocktail party and pot luck at his home. He had long and deep friendships with many, some of whom dated back to kindergarten, including his previous wives, Frances Hazard of Rancho Mirage and Marguerite Lawry of Bethel Island. Most recently care was given by Kaiser Hospice and a wonderful significant other, Penny Givens-Berry, who provided home care which was equal to none. Contributions can be made to Kaiser Hospice. traveller1st, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:23 pm Nice one Deb. Thank you. I have some spare paragraph breaks lying around if you want them though lol. Just messing, you know you’re great. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:02 pm Much thanks Seagull! I have a Bethel Island friend tapping into more on him right now. I’ll share once I get all the information. Been & know people at San Joaquin YC (MS Sutter) so that is a help. Also have friends that are in Blue Gavel. If you should run across his former home address on Taylor Rd in B.I. Please let me know as I want to compare it to the address of another strange guy on Taylor Rd. as told to a friend seemed Zodiac like. That would save me a trip to the recorders office. I "think" we have 2 different guys here but both lived on Taylor Rd. Zincerely, Zam* Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:00 pm I have already emailed with Sandy. It is the same address. edited to add: Since this suspect was in LE he surely has as many enemies as friends. He no doubt has arrested many people in his 22 year career. These people have families and friends who might be quick to take a side against LE. I would not put it past some people to try to make a cops life miserable because of some misplaced anger. Steve, who put up the video, has changed his story a few times along the way due to people who have commented about his video and presented different and verifiable information that goes against what Steve presented. This reminds me of KevinB who changed his story more often than he changed his socks! We all know how that is going! Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:06 pm I have already emailed with Sandy. It is the same address. edited to add: Since this suspect was in LE he surely has as many enemies as friends. He no doubt has arrested many people in his 22 year career. These people have families and friends who might be quick to take a side against LE. I would not put it past some people to try to make a cops life miserable because of some misplaced anger. Steve, who put up the video, has changed his story a few times along the way due to people who have commented about his video and presented different and verifiable information that goes against what Steve presented. This reminds me of KevinB who changed his story more often than he changed his socks! We all know how that is going! The Address’s match up to the one given to me by a different source. I will find his message and post it. So far I’ve received 3 replies. Two are positive, one said he was Odd and gave me the reason why, but I hesitate to post it. All replies said they would ask around on the guy that did the video, but they do not know him. One reply said that Barry was a good, well liked man. This contact give me two of his ex wife’s emails. She said she knew three of his wife’s and that they thought the world of him. That he was a kind, generous man, soft spoken and his home and boat docks were spotless. He did like the color, "Blue" When he found out he had six weeks to live, he gave himself a going away party…the theme "Bears Going Away Party" (Bears was his nick name) This was his best chance to see his friends and loved ones. It worked, and was a beautiful day. Lot’s of friends were there including his ex wife’s. A few days later he was gone. She hopes that this gives me some kind of idea that Barry was a good person. My other contact said they knew Barry, he was very involved with the Community & San Joaquin Yacht Club. tracers, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:22 pm Stay classy, cranky Zodiac hoaxers. Sorry you had to deal with that Seagull Taco Cat! LOL! That "stay classy" comment had me laughing for about five minutes. Thanks AK! This guy sounds very immature. My speakers aren’t working well and I am having trouble getting everything that is said in the video. If someone has the time, can you provide a summary? if not, it’s okay. I should be getting some new speakers this weekend. I did read from the comments he said he found knives in a shrine in a wall? Does he know for sure that the knives belonged to his suspect? I find this guy Steve’s posts hard to understand at times. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:04 pm He sure is a pretty damn good match to the Oct 11, 1969 sketch. Also note the symbol on his cap, it is kind of resemble the shape of the crosshair symbol. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:22 pm Do you have a date for that photo TF? Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:41 pm Do you have a date for that photo TF? I can’t answer for The Foreigner, but I would assume 1972/1973 as that is when he was, "Commodore of the Encinal Yacht Club" in Alameda, CA. Or it would be 1977 when he was Commodore of the Northern California Power Cruiser Association. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:51 pm Who is "Steve"? How did he find "Barry"? Is it possible to get Steve here on morf’s messageboard? Difficult situation with Barry only having 6 weeks to live.. We need handwriting samples, as soon as possible. Barry almost acts guilty of something. But then, we don’t know whether Barry is currently on medication and how much he is connected to reality, just saying. Sandy, can you get Steve to sign up please? -Nin I think I scared him away LOL. I haven’t heard from him after that night. Maybe I disappointed him, when I told him that none of the knifes looked like the one used at Lake Berryessa ? Or he felt I wasn’t a good investigator, because I didn’t recognise the knife as being the same one he thinks was used at Lake B ? I plan on contacting him and seeing the house his suspect lived in, then talking more about why he isn’t willing to share the poi’s printing ? I will tell him that you would like to have him post here. He knows I am a friend of Tom’s, that could stop him from wanting to talk to me, who knows, all I can do is give it a try ? I could sure use him to question people who know the name of my suspect and save me a lot of time trying to figure it out . (It is way too dangerous for me to do it.) No one else I know wants to do it either. But then I can’t blame them, everyone else who has tried to help me so far ,has been harmed or nearly killed by this guy. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:52 pm Do you have a date for that photo TF? No I don’t have a year for that photo, but I found this newsreport from Jan 1972 naming him "Commodore" just like in the photo, so the photo might be from early 70s, he was born Feb 6, 1935, so he would have been ca 37 years old in 1972: To find the photo I posted of BW, just google "Barry Wysling " and klick on "images" sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:59 pm He sure is a pretty damn good match to the Oct 11, 1969 sketch. Also note the symbol on his cap, it is kind of resemble the shape of the crosshair symbol. \ OMG, That is the closest picture to the Z composite I have ever seen ! Thanks for finding it TF great job as usual. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:08 pm He sure is a pretty damn good match to the Oct 11, 1969 sketch. Also note the symbol on his cap, it is kind of resemble the shape of the crosshair symbol. \ OMG, That is the closest picture to the Z composite I have ever seen ! Thanks for finding it TF great job as usual. Yeah, it’s kinda Spot On! Wow, is all I can say. 1972/1973 ? as that is when he was, "Commodore of the Encinal Yacht. This would of been the Club Hat for his Commodore’s Picture. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:56 pm A houseboat makes a good place to use as a hideout- … 576C09.pdf morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:04 pm Seagull, did you see that his Dad shot himself to death in 1967? I think its his dad,the article is blurry.It was in the 6/27/67 Oakland Tribune tracers, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:21 pm So he’s a respected member of the community who holds many positions of responsibility and respect and then throws his wife’s corpse around on a blanket and dances around naked with a necklace with pictures of naked girlfriends? sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:27 pm Well Nin, I just got off the phone with Steve, and he wants to join this site. I would like to know more about his suspect. I did tell him that one of our investigators who is very good at what she does, didn’t find a wife of Barry’s dieing before him . He assured me that Marianne Holmes Wysling died 4 weeks after Barry married her. I am guessing that was his first wife ? Some of you may not be interested in his suspect, but I think that everyone should should be able to write about the information they have . We don’t want to ever miss that missing piece of the puzzle, just because we don’t agree with something someone has to say. He told me he also has a better picture of Barry that looks even closer than the one TF found, that is hard to believe because that one is spot on ! sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:45 pm So he’s a respected member of the community who holds many positions of responsibility and respect and then throws his wife’s corpse around on a blanket and dances around naked with a necklace with pictures of naked girlfriends? I was told that Barry himself was the one who wrote his obituary. That is a great idea ,I will be writing my own and I will be the great great granddaughter of the Queen of Sheba . And three pages of all the wonderful things I have done for people through out my life ! Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:55 pm Well Nin, I just got off the phone with Steve, and he wants to join this site. I would like to know more about his suspect. I did tell him that one of our investigators who is very good at what she does, didn’t find a wife of Barry’s dieing before him . He assured me that Marianne Holmes Wysling died 4 weeks after Barry married her. I am guessing that was his first wife ? Some of you may not be interested in his suspect, but I think that everyone should should be able to write about the information they have . We don’t want to ever miss that missing piece of the puzzle, just because we don’t agree with something someone has to say. He told me he also has a better picture of Barry that looks even closer than the one TF found, that is hard to believe because that one is spot on ! Sandy, someone else who is also researching Barry but does not belong to this site contacted me with information on Marianne. She was his fourth wife, they married Oct. 10, 2002 and there is an obit for her in the Nov. 20, 2002 Contra Costa Times in the name Marianne Holmes Wysling. Her death does not show up in the social security death index at Ancestry, I have no idea why, maybe her name is misspelled in the records or something. That year of the Contra Costa Times is not available online but maybe you can get a copy of it. How sad to die so soon after getting married. bentley, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:58 pm dances around naked with a necklace with pictures of naked girlfriends? Well, he was a Commodore. ‘Cause she’s a brick, house… :joker: Land sakes, again no hand printing? Knives we got. Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:18 pm Here is the list of the muster roll documents that are posted at Ancestry for Barry. As you can see he rose steadily in rank, he did not get busted back in rank at anytime which would have happened if he had as many disiplinary actions as Steve said he had. J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Oct 1953 Rank: E1 Station: Recruits 6Th Rec Trng Bn Ncrd San Diego Calif , Camp Pendleton U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Oct 1953 Rank: Private Station: Recruits 6Thrtrngbn, Mcrdep San Diego Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Oct 1953 Rank: Private Station: 6Th Signal Company Usmcr, N and Mcrtc 2144 Clement Ave Alameda Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett Wysling Name: Barrett Wysling Muster Date: Oct 1954 Rank: E2 Station: H And S Btry 2D Aaa Auto Wpns Sp Bn Fmf U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: E2 Station: H And S Btry 2D Aaa Auto Wpns Bn Fmf U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: Private First Class Station: H and S Btry 2D Aaa Awbn Fmf,29 Palms Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: Private First Class Station: H and S Btry 2D Aaa Awbn Fmf,29 Palms Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: Private First Class Station: H and S Btry 2D Aaa Awbn Fmf,29 Palms Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: Private First Class Station: H and S Btry 2D Aaa Awbn Fmf,29 Palms Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Apr 1954 Rank: E2 Station: H And S Btry 2D Aaa Auto Wpns Sp Bn Fmf U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Apr 1954 Rank: Private First Class Station: H and S Btry 2D Aaa Awbn (Sp) Fmfpac,29 Palms Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jul 1954 Rank: E2 Station: H And S Btry 2D Aaa Auto Wpns Sp Bn Fmf U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: E2 Station: Recruits 6Th Rec Trng Bn Mcrd San Diego Calif , Mri Camp Pendleton U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: Private First Class Station: Recruits 6Thrtrngbn Mcrdep San Diego California U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett Wysling Name: Barrett Wysling Muster Date: Apr 1955 Rank: E2 Station: Hq Btry Force Artillery Force Troops Fmf Mri-3 Camp Pendleton Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett Wysling Name: Barrett Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1955 Rank: E2 Station: H And S Btry 2D Aaa Auto Wpns Sp Bn Fmf U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett Wysling Name: Barrett Wysling Muster Date: Oct 1955 Rank: E3 Station: Enl Vol Res S-Z 12Th Mcrrd, 8 San Francisco Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jul 1955 Rank: Corporal Station: Hqco Force Troops Fmfpac, Camp Pendleton Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Oct 1955 Rank: Corporal Station: Hqco Fortrps Fmfpac, Mctc 29 Palms Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Apr 1955 Rank: Private First Class Station: Hqbtry Forarty Fmf,Mctc 29 Palms Cal U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1955 Rank: Private First Class Station: H and S Btry 2D Aaa Awbn (Sp) Fmfpac, 29 Palms California U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Oct 1955 Rank: Corporal Station: Enlisted Volunteer Reserve (S-Z) 12Th Mcrrd, 100 Harrison Street San Francisco Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jul 1957 Rank: Corporal Station: Enlisted Volunteer Reserve (S-Z) 12Th Mcrrd, 100 Harrison Street San Francisco Calif U.S. Marine Corps Muster Rolls, 1798-1958 about Barrett J Wysling Name: Barrett J Wysling Muster Date: Jan 1954 Rank: Private First Class Station: H and S Btry 2D Aaa Awbn Fmf,29 Palms Calif Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:26 pm Just spoke to Steve the guy in the video to get a feel of what he is all about. He comes across very kind, real & sincere. He fell into this Z case, he didn’t go looking for it and he is now trying to report his findings. He explained the time line of his POI to me. He also explained how he came to use the Crime Scene Clean Up company for the blood testing. <-Made sense, I mean no police dept is going to take any of us seriously & test any of our possible evidence for blood. He’s done some good research on this POI. I suggested he write it down in a time line to share. FYI, I did get a very negative(creepy) review from someone on the island, Re: Barry. They are asking around for more information. Also hope to snoop around some more. I have nothing to gain either way in this. So I will be reporting my findings, the good, bad & any ugly. Sandy invited him to our site. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:00 am Found OPD 2008 Pictures. Oakland Police Dept. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:21 am Please forgive me….. I cannot look at that man and see him as the Zodiac killer. (I know people change, lose weight, etc. and what the hell do I know?) Sure the photo back with "Zodiac" glasses looks like the composite, but so would almost any guy you stuck those glasses on…and w/the hat you can’t even see his head. I look forward to another old photo, but photos of guys who may or may not look like Zodiac…I don’t know. I very much welcome people with ideas and information, but I hope he doesn’t treat people here like he treated people elsewhere. I’d like to give him the benefit of doubt, but so many get rude and offensive when you find flaws in their research. We’ll see. …thx for the info on the photo date TF. traveller1st, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:23 am Please forgive me….. I cannot look at that man and see him as the Zodiac killer. (I know people change, lose weight, etc. and what the hell do I know?) Sure the photo back with "Zodiac" glasses looks like the composite, but so would almost any guy you stuck those glasses on…and w/the hat you can’t even see his head. I look forward to another old photo, but photos of guys who may or may not look like Zodiac…I don’t know. I very much welcome people with ideas and information, but I hope he doesn’t treat people here like he treated people elsewhere. I’d like to give him the benefit of doubt, but so many get rude and offensive when you find flaws in their research. We’ll see. …thx for the info on the photo date TF. Well said T on all counts. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:47 am I would like to his hear more about this guy’s story & everything that makes him believe that his suspect was Zodiac…more backstory on how he came to believe it,etc. He has been accepted as a member here,so let’s hear him out and see what he has to say. traveller1st, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:25 am I would like to his hear more about this guy’s story & everything that makes him believe that his suspect was Zodiac…more backstory on how he came to believe it,etc. He has been accepted as a member here,so let’s hear him out and see what he has to say. Absolutely we are all in the the same boat. We will listen to any story because we don’t know what the truth is … yet. We chip away and then start again. Welcome Steve and thank you for taking the time to pursue what has caught your attention. traveller1st, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:49 am But we all have to eat humble pie also. I would expect an apology to Seagull and after a thorough review (over time of course) of her excellent work on this case, it should be heart-felt. We all find it easy to get exasperated with this thing, so I understand that, but we should also man up (sorry ladies) when we are wrong or get out of hand. Just trying to ease tensions before they begin. bentley, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:40 am HANDWRITING Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:54 pm This is the 4th wife who died ca 1 months after she married Barreet (Barry) jean Wysling. I can´t get to the actual obit. Web: Obituary Daily Times Index, 1995-2011 about Marianne Holmes Wysling Name: Marianne Holmes Wysling Publication Date: 20 Nov 2002 Publication Place: United States Death Date: Abt 2002 Death Place: Bethel Island, CA Age at Death: 64 Birth Date: abt 1938 Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:59 pm TF were you able to find a social security death record for Marianne? I was not but you have been known to come up with the seemingly impossible! morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:10 pm My laptop which I used to listen to & watch his youtube video has very poor sound quality, and I couldnt hear much at all. Can somebody post the ‘cliffnotes’ of his video & suspect? Thanks in advance. Hopefully he doesnt come here and pull a ‘Horan’,and he gets along with everybody. Can’t see how most people wouldnt get along with Seagull. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:42 pm Well Nin, I just got off the phone with Steve, and he wants to join this site. I would like to know more about his suspect. I did tell him that one of our investigators who is very good at what she does, didn’t find a wife of Barry’s dieing before him . He assured me that Marianne Holmes Wysling died 4 weeks after Barry married her. I am guessing that was his first wife ? Some of you may not be interested in his suspect, but I think that everyone should should be able to write about the information they have . We don’t want to ever miss that missing piece of the puzzle, just because we don’t agree with something someone has to say. He told me he also has a better picture of Barry that looks even closer than the one TF found, that is hard to believe because that one is spot on ! Sandy, someone else who is also researching Barry but does not belong to this site contacted me with information on Marianne. She was his fourth wife, they married Oct. 10, 2002 and there is an obit for her in the Nov. 20, 2002 Contra Costa Times in the name Marianne Holmes Wysling. Her death does not show up in the social security death index at Ancestry, I have no idea why, maybe her name is misspelled in the records or something. That year of the Contra Costa Times is not available online but maybe you can get a copy of it. How sad to die so soon after getting married. Seagull ,when I was using Ancestry, I found that they didn’t have all of my relatives listed who I know passed away, although they do have a lot of great information, they don’t have everything. I liked Ancestry much better about 5 yrs ago, when I could also get a lot more information on living people. I was told that Barry knew Marianne was dieing of cancer and that she had a lot of money, of which he ended up with . Even Ray Charles could see what probably happened there ? Very sad for me to even think about, having lost a daughter to cancer, knowing how much victims of cancer suffer for so long before death. What was done to Marianne’s body after she died is appalling to me and something that no one in their right mind could do. I don’t think a sane person could even think of this to make it up ? Thank you TF for finding her death date, I will get a copy of the obituary dated 11-20-02 and post it. Barry more than likely wrote that one as well . I will get a copy of Marianne’s obituary and post it. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:56 pm My laptop which I used to listen to & watch his youtube video has very poor sound quality, and I couldnt hear much at all. Can somebody post the ‘cliffnotes’ of his video & suspect? Thanks in advance. Hopefully he doesnt come here and pull a ‘Horan’,and he gets along with everybody. Can’t see how most people wouldnt get along with Seagull. He truly thought Seagull was Tom V using another name. He is very sure that Tom also pretended to be Harry Horton on YouTube, who bashed him badly and his ideas about his suspect. (I have never seen that side of Tom V.) But that is what pushed Steve over the edge. I am sure Steve had a hard time believing me, when I told him that Seagull is a real person a female investigator and not Tom V. I told him he didn’t have to worry about anyone bashing him here, that it is a none bashing site. That all of us are open to everyone’s theories. I feel that if we disagree with someone, there is a nice way to tell them why we disagree, without being mean about it.
	Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac	61 Relevance	13 years ago	AK Wilks	Zodiac Theories
	AK Wilks, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:15 pm Steve Welcome to the site. Many here look forward to what you have to say. Now some words of advice you may take them or leave them. Since you suspect is dead, there is no reason you can’t post his handwriting. Several members here – trav, TheForeiegner, Bentley, Morf and others – are very good at doing handwriting comps and analysis. So that is one thing you can do to help us evaluate your suspect. There are many excellent researchers here. You will get help with your case if you follow the forum rules, which I am sure you will. Also be prepared for friendly skepticism. You are making a bold claim here, and we will want to see the EVIDENCE that backs up the claim. Very helpful if you can post not just what you heard, but where you heard it, who told you, etc. Better yet if you can post pictures, handwriting and links to databases that confirm what you say. For example, you said that Barry had discipline problems in the military and was dishonorably discharged. Records found and posted here seem to indicate that those statements are NOT true. In fact it seemed Barry had an honorable record as a Marine and a police officer. Lots of people like the Mikado play, know about radians and have knives. If you hunt you may have knifes with blood on them. There have been dozens and dozens of suspects who look like the generic sketch and have some circumstantial evidence against them. Yet none were the Zodiac. What is the hard evidence you have showing he could be the Zodiac? How did you come up with this theory? If you have a lab report showing human blood on the knives, please post it. The Zodiac case is fascinating and you are at a forum with IMO the top amateur researchers in the field. Hopefully we can help you in your research, if you provide the evidence and leads. You can start by posting the handwriting. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:15 pm TF were you able to find a social security death record for Marianne? I was not but you have been known to come up with the seemingly impossible! No I couldn´t find any ss death record either. But I found thise: … bLoggedOut Marianne Holmes Wysling Obituary Guest Book The Guest Book is expired. Restore the Guest Book In Loving Memory Of Marianne Holmes Wysling Aug. 3, 1938 – Nov. 15, 2002 A gracious lady who always put others first. She is greatly missed by her family and many friends. Published in Contra Costa Times on November 15, 2003 … nID=606116 MARIANNE HOLMES WYSLING Marianne Holmes Wysling, 64, of Bethel Island, California, operator for 32 years, with her husband, of Beacon Harbor in Bethel Island, died at her residence on Friday, November 15, 2002, following a lengthy illness. A celebration of life is scheduled for after new year’s day, at the family home. Arrangements entrusted to Brentwood Funeral Home, Brentwood, California. … bLoggedOut Marianne Holmes Wysling Obituary Wysling, Marianne Holmes, 64, of Bethel Island.. Operated Beacon Harbor on Bethel Island. A Celebration of her life at the family home after the first of the New Year. Arrangements by Brentwood Funeral Home, (925) 634-2171. Published in Contra Costa Times on November 20, 2002 … bLoggedOut Marianne Holmes Wysling Obituary Marianne Holmes Wysling Marianne Holmes Wysling, 64 years of age died at her residence on Bethel Island, CA on November 15, 2002 following a lenghty illness. Marianne was a native of Cleveland, Ohio and has resided in Contra Costa Co on Bethel Island for the past 32 years. She and her late husband, Howard Holmes operated Beacon Harbor on Bethel Island for the past 32 years. Marianne was preceded in death by her Mother, Ruth Connolly on Nov. 9, 2002. Survivors include her husband: Barrette J. Wysling of Bethel Island, Son: Howard ‘Buck’ Holmes of Los Angeles, and Brother: Ronald Owings of Westerville, Ohio. At Marianne’s request cremation has taken place and there will be a Celebration of her life at the family home after the first of the New Year. Arrangements by Brentwood Funeral Home. See for online guest book. Donations may be made to the charity of your choice in Marianne’s Memory. Published in Contra Costa Times on November 20, 2002 Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:27 pm Thank You, TF!!! I looks to me like you got most of what would have been in Marianne’s obituary in the Contra Costa Times, if not all. Great job as always. Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:35 pm Yes, Thank you T.F. appreciate it. Pondering, So Marianne and her first husband built a business together for 32 years. That’s a long time. Then she marries Barry & does the business also go in his name? I would think it would be solely in her name & then it would go to her sons. Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:44 pm This is just for the record and it regards my comments to Captainfun11’s video. I did not save the first comment I made because I had no reason to believe that he would delete it. After he deleted my first post I did screen save the two more comments I made to the Barry interview video. I did believe at that point he would delete any more comments that I made and wanted a record of them. I was blocked from posting after the second comment shown here. I do not believe that I said anything in any of my comments that would warrant the vile email he sent to me. I would like to add that the reason I made the "I am not Tom Voigt" comment was because Captainfun11 said in one of his comments that he deleted things because Tom Voigt was messing with him and using multiple user names. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:45 pm Thank You, TF!!! I looks to me like you got most of what would have been in Marianne’s obituary in the Contra Costa Times, if not all. Great job as always. Your welcome Seagull and Zam Marianne was born Marianne Owings and married Francis R. Hulbert in 1960. Then Marianne remarried Howard C Holmes June 20, 1970. Her husband Howard C Holmes died Nov 24 1997 And then she married BJW Oct 10, 2002 And she died Nov 15, 2002 Cook County, Illinois Marriage Index, 1930-1960 about Marianne Owings Name: Marianne Owings Marriage Date: 25 Oct 1960 Spouse: Francis R. Hulbert Marriage Location: Cook County, IL Marriage license: {4D837152-FDA4-4E0D-8BE5-519714BE5ABD} File Number: 2589183 Archive Collection Name: Cook County Genealogy Records (Marriages) Archive repository location: Chicago, IL Archive repository name: Cook County Clerk California, Marriage Index, 1960-1985 about Marianne Owings Name: Marianne Owings Age: 31 Est. Birth: abt 1939 Spouse Name: Howard C Holmes Spouse Age: 51 Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1919 Date: 20 Jun 1970 Location: Monterey California, Marriage Index, 1960-1985 about Marianne Hulbert Name: Marianne Hulbert Age: 31 Est. Birth: abt 1939 Spouse Name: Howard C Holmes Spouse Age: 51 Est. Spouse Birth: abt 1919 Date: 20 Jun 1970 Location: Monterey California Death Index, 1940-1997 about Howard Calvin Holmes Name: Howard Calvin Holmes Social Security #: 549266629 Sex: Male Birth Date: 13 Feb 1919 Birthplace: Arizona Death Date: 24 Nov 1994 Death Place: Contra Costa Mother’s Maiden Name: Carbine Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:47 pm My laptop which I used to listen to & watch his youtube video has very poor sound quality, and I couldnt hear much at all. Can somebody post the ‘cliffnotes’ of his video & suspect? Thanks in advance. Hopefully he doesnt come here and pull a ‘Horan’,and he gets along with everybody. Can’t see how most people wouldnt get along with Seagull. Just a suggestion Morf, plug in some headphones into your laptop and you will be able to hear what they say. tracers, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:58 pm Good luck with Steve. I hope this doesn’t turn out the way the KevinB, Lafferty, and Horan things did. I am also curious about the handwriting and look forward to hearing what else he has to say. I know some members here will ask the hard questions and do the real research required to determine the validity of Steve’s claims. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:08 pm My laptop which I used to listen to & watch his youtube video has very poor sound quality, and I couldnt hear much at all. Can somebody post the ‘cliffnotes’ of his video & suspect? Thanks in advance. Hopefully he doesnt come here and pull a ‘Horan’,and he gets along with everybody. Can’t see how most people wouldnt get along with Seagull. Just a suggestion Morf, plug in some headphones into your laptop and you will be able to hear what they say. After you hear the video, it might give you some insight as to what got Steve so upset, by reading the comments and how they were presented to him. And don’t forget Steve thought that Seagull was Tom V. ( that make a difference ) I had no idea until I read up to page 9 and for what ever reason I was not able to read more. Everyone has a breaking point, I don’t think people should be pushed to that point. There are too many people who thrive on pushing buttons, perhaps because their lives aren’t going so well , not sure why ? We should hear what Steve has to say and then ask questions. Lets not do what was done to Jim Crabtree, there was a lot he was sharing with all of us, before he got upset and stopped telling us about Darlene and their life together , where they lived etc. We missed out on a lot of good information, and a interesting site was shut down because of it.Most people treat others as they are treated. "The Golden rule" Vallejo Pd said that the case will not be broken by handwriting samples, that even the experts can’t agree on Zodiac’s letters. Steve has some and I am pretty sure I can get some of Barry’s writing myself. It is better to see samples from the late 60 early 70’s to compare to, because a persons writing changes over the yrs , mine has. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:18 pm Thank You, TF!!! I looks to me like you got most of what would have been in Marianne’s obituary in the Contra Costa Times, if not all. Great job as always. Thanks a bunch TF , I won’t have to drive to get it, saves time and money, to do something else constructive in the Z case. Great job again ! tracers, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:43 pm Please. What breaking point? Tom asked two simple questions and instead of answering the questions, Steve starting getting personal. Have people actually read the initial comments between the two? I’ll post them. You have to sort of read from the bottom up. Tom asked about seeing handwriting samples and asked Steve to name the handwriting experts, and Steve went off. IMO, Steve is just using the I Thought MsSeagull101 Was Tom excuse to justify deleting posts and to keep people who ask good questions or point out his flaws from posting. I’m just asking for you to back up your claims. Obviously you can’t. (Because you’re a liar.) tomvoigt 1 week ago "We left the handwriting to the experts in that field…" So you are claiming the "experts" (plural, more than one) matched the handwriting of your suspect to that of the Zodiac? Who are these so-called experts? If you are being truthful, there should be no problem naming them. But we all know you won’t. tomvoigt 1 week ago Are you Tom a handwriting expert? I think not, so why would I wish to show you anything? You have done exactly what in the last 44 yrs. to actually help find the true killer? captainfun11 in reply to tomvoigt (Show the comment) 1 week ago "We left the handwriting to the experts in that field…" So you are claiming the "experts" (plural, more than one) matched the handwriting of your suspect to that of the Zodiac? Who are these so-called experts? If you are being truthful, there should be no problem naming them. But we all know you won’t. tomvoigt 1 week ago And that’s the exact response I was expecting. tomvoigt 1 week ago This comment has received too many negative votes And that’s the exact response I was expecting. tomvoigt 1 week ago I thought you were expecting a response about an ongoing investigation or similar BS, did I in anyway respond like that? It might help if you made a effort to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem? You seem a little desperate? If you need a couple hundred just ask, I am not a hater Tom, but, really you should jump onto the winning team, we could use you! captainfun11 in reply to tomvoigt 1 week ago If "his handwriting is a match," why not show us? And don’t say it’s because "this is an on-going investigation" or similar BS. Let’s see the handwriting. tomvoigt 1 week ago This comment has received too many negative votes If "his handwriting is a match," why not show us? And don’t say it’s because "this is an on-going investigation" or similar BS. Let’s see the handwriting. tomvoigt 1 week ago The difference between you and I is I am not a want-a-be sleuth, I just bought a house, started a remodel and found weapons inside a wall, and in no way was I ever investigating anything! My only hope out is to find closure for the victims and/or there families. You and others have only hampered this investigation with suspects that don’t fit the evidence and facts we do know! Lets see your suspects handwriting Tom? Get a job like the rest of us, and quit asking me and others for money! captainfun11 in reply to tomvoigt 1 week ago And from what I can tell, Steve still hasn’t answered these questions? And that message he sent to Seagull was vile and tasteless, like a few people he lets post on his video page while he blocks people who question him. I will of course be civil to the man, but I am not going to "welcome" someone like that. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:28 pm Link to youtube video by Steve/Captainfun11 of the 3 knifes he says he found in a house he was remodeling, and which he claim have tested positive for human blood (not sure if all 3 knifes tested positive?): Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:57 pm Does anyone know the name etc. of the alleged uncle of BJW that is supposed to have written books about decoding ciphers "nazi strategies" etc ? I belive that he was named "Hunt" or somthing to that affect. And does anyone know wheter "Steve" has become a member here yet? tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:29 pm And does anyone know wheter "Steve" has become a member here yet? Yes. He is registered. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:34 pm WOW,I gotta say,finally got a chance to listen to the full video of his suspect being interviewed,and I have to agree,he DOES seem a bit nervous or something.If somebody told me that they thought I was a serial killer, I would tell them to "get the hell out of my face",and slam the door in their face. This guy seems like he wants to see how much they actually know,etc. Could be coincidence,and maybe the guy was being polite etc, but he didnt really dispute what they were saying. How did this guy become a suspect again? Also,did his Uncle really write books on decoding ciphers? I for one wanna hear more. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:42 pm If somebody told me that they thought I was a serial killer, I would tell them to "get the hell out of my face",and slam the door in their face. Now THAT would cause suspicion. I think most would actually take on a curiosity. If you weren’t a killer, I don’t think you’d get mad. This guy almost seems bewildered and caught off guard and rightly so. AK Wilks, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:42 pm My take was different! I saw a frail broken and dieing man who just found out he has six weeks to live. He is confronted by people saying he is the Zodiac with no hard evidence and he laughs and walks away. He does not have the physical or mental strength to yell. I have seen innocent people accused of crimes and they react in different ways. Anyway perhaps Steve can post the handwriting and tell us how he connects the knives to Barry and what evidence shows Barry was the Zodiac. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:43 pm How did this guy become a suspect again? I think it was the knives found in the wall and someone saying they looked like Zodiac’s. Please correct me if I am wrong. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:44 pm If somebody told me that they thought I was a serial killer, I would tell them to "get the hell out of my face",and slam the door in their face. Now THAT would cause suspicion. I think most would actually take on a curiosity. If you weren’t a killer, I don’t think you’d get mad. This guy almost seems bewildered and caught off guard and rightly so. He does in a way,but also seems a bit nervous when he brings up Mikado & contacting Vallejo PD morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:45 pm Going to start a thread in the SUSPECTS section for this guy. Maybe CAPTAIN will start posting in it with more background info. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:04 pm Going to start a thread in the SUSPECTS section for this guy. Maybe CAPTAIN will start posting in it with more background info. Maybe put a link to this thread too? Theforeigner, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:12 pm And does anyone know wheter "Steve" has become a member here yet? Yes. He is registered. Thanks Tahoe:) I do hope he will start posting, I for sure would like to know more about his suspect. IMHO Mr Wysling’s behaviour in the video was odd. As I understand it, that encounter Mr Wysling had with Steve, in the video, was NOT the first time he spoke with Steve about the Zodiac issue( i might be wrong though) morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:37 pm In the video, Wysling mentions that his Dad didnt work at Mare Island. I dont know if he did or not,but in an article in the June 67 Oakland Tribune, about the suicide of Wysling’s Father, it mention- "Wysling, a retired metal’ smith, is the father of Oakland policeman… …Barrett J. Wysling" Could have been a metalsmith anyplace,but if he was at Mare Island,then Barry was lying. Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:06 pm I think one thing you need to consider about watching Barry on that video. He was a cop for 22 years for the Oakland Police Department, one of the roughest cities in the Bay Area. As a cop he would have been trained to learn as much as possible about a situation without giving any indication of knowledge he might have regarding the situation. To me Barry looked like he was going into cop mode in that video. Given the state of his health and the literal deadline he was given, just that day, I think he handled himself quite well. How would you react if someone knocked on your door and accused you of being a notorious serial killer? Would you immediately start denying the accusation or would you try to learn why you were being accused and exactly what you were being accused of doing? Morf, Barry’s father Paul had been a pastry chef in a hotel until WWII began. He, at 43 years old, was too old to join the service but he did contribute to the war effort by working in a field that would aid our troops. He did not work at Mare Island, as a matter of fact Steve changed his tune on that later in his comments and said the the father worked at a base in Alameda. I could not find that the father lived anywhere but Alameda County, first Oakland and later Alameda itself. It is unlikely that the father would have commuted to Mare Island, particularly during war time when gas was in very short supply and was strictly rationed. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:42 pm In this vid- Captain is saying that the knives tested positive for human blood. If thats true, that pretty interesting,and the knives NEED TO BE turned in to police. Maybe it can be compared to Hartnell’s DNA? Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:00 pm STEVE: I have to ask…these knives found in the wall…how did this transpire, were you doing the remodeling of the building. When you discovered the secret compartment did you photograph it before you moved anything or touched anything, did you call law enforcement to explain what you discovered. I really doubt this is the zodiac but you might have evidence of another crime if in fact this is true. traveller1st, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:41 pm Very excellent questions Dan. I am putting myself in Steve’s position though and how I would feel confronted by this shrine and I have to say, I would have been all over it, wow what are these, look at this etc. It’s only through listening to everyone on the forums that I would now, in the same position, stop and think, then photograph and then contact LE. Problem is without knowing at that point what you’ve found even alerting LE could be disastrous as if it ends up with an LE who don’t have an open investigation to the Zodiac crimes, these things could just ended up buried in an evidence chain as new match comparisons and may not even be considered for anything older than a certain time unless it falls under a cold case review and then the relevant cold cases to that district would probably be considered first. I didn’t like hearing that internet testing kits had been used, despite a lab follow up. It all adds to contamination outside of a proper evidence chain. But we all do what we do when we do it and then usually have to it different next time. Nin, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:23 pm Sorry, but I am drawing a blank now. Who is this individual?? … bLoggedOut Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:25 pm Trave: Point well made, its sad because if these knives were involved in some unknown murder or murders the evidence is completely useless… Nin, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:33 pm Sorry, but I am drawing a blank now. Who is this individual?? … bLoggedOut Okay, so he actually died 3 years ago! I was under the impression the youtube video was recently posted and Barry was still alive having only 6 more weeks according to his doc. Next. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:27 pm I started a thread dedicated to this POI here- … rrywysling Hope the Captain will post in it and give us some more background & details Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:41 pm I believe the you tube video was recently posted. I have no idea why there is such a gap in time. Was the video, apparently recorded by a television station, was ever aired. It’s odd that we wouldn’t have heard of it before now, if so. And if it wasn’t aired, why did the station make the decision not to air it? I’ve looked through the TV station’s archive but was unable to find it. The archive goes back to 1998 but it’s doubtful that they have every single story ever done archived. Maybe someone else with a little more patience and faster internet speed than I have can find it. Barry died Oct. 2, 2009. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:30 am Maybe they never aired it because they didnt want to get backlash from people for accusing this guy of being Zodiac. Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:49 am Maybe it’s a question the Captain can answer! sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:07 am I believe the you tube video was recently posted. I have no idea why there is such a gap in time. Was the video, apparently recorded by a television station, was ever aired. It’s odd that we wouldn’t have heard of it before now, if so. And if it wasn’t aired, why did the station make the decision not to air it? I’ve looked through the TV station’s archive but was unable to find it. The archive goes back to 1998 but it’s doubtful that they have every single story ever done archived. Maybe someone else with a little more patience and faster internet speed than I have can find it. Barry died Oct. 2, 2009. It is my understanding that the reporter was very excited about Steve’s findings and his POI, it was filmed to be put on TV, but due to the fact that Barry was still alive at that time ,the station decided they could be sued, and called it off. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:55 am When will the captain be coming aboard the ship? Would be nice to finally hear from him Luke68, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:56 am My take was different! I saw a frail broken and dieing man who just found out he has six weeks to live. He is confronted by people saying he is the Zodiac with no hard evidence and he laughs and walks away. He does not have the physical or mental strength to yell. I have seen innocent people accused of crimes and they react in different ways. Anyway perhaps Steve can post the handwriting and tell us how he connects the knives to Barry and what evidence shows Barry was the Zodiac. And probably high as a kite as well. As soon as someone is given a prognosis like he had, they are pumped to the gills with drugs. sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:53 pm When will the captain be coming aboard the ship? Would be nice to finally hear from him He is reading the message board when ever he has time between his two jobs and family life. He wants to get to know everyone, read some of their posts to get a feel of what we do here first. He also would like to know more about the zodiac case in general. He hasn’t read the You tube thread yet, to know what questions we want him to answer. Then he needs Zamantha to have the time to help him get some of his evidence scanned and posted. I did ask him about Barry’s military records, and told him what Seagull had found on Ancestry. He said that Barry had one tour of duty in Vietnam as he told in his obituary and on Ancestry it also shows 20 disciplinary actions against him. He wasn’t able to see what exactly they were. I did see the one knife again that looks very much like the knife that was used at Lake Berryessa. This was the one that I had felt was a bit too short to be the correct knife. Looking at it again up close, it has the two rivets which I noticed before and is longer than I remembered. It also has a crack on the end of the wooden handle, where the tape that Hartnell said was on the knife. It was speculated by LE that the tape was put on the knife so the killers hand wouldn’t slip. But now I am thinking that it could have been because the handle was weak because of the crack ? I think he has some pretty good evidence to bring to the table. He has no agenda, so if we can help him with his findings to show either way that this Barry is or isn’t the Zodiac killer, he would very much appreciate it. All I ask is that we do it in a civil manner. Nin, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:57 pm .. I think I scared him away LOL. I haven’t heard from him after that night. Maybe I disappointed him, when I told him that none of the knifes looked like the one used at Lake Berryessa ? Or he felt I wasn’t a good investigator, because I didn’t recognise the knife as being the same one he thinks was used at Lake B ? I plan on contacting him and seeing the house his suspect lived in, then talking more about why he isn’t willing to share the poi’s printing ? I will tell him that you would like to have him post here. He knows I am a friend of Tom’s, that could stop him from wanting to talk to me, who knows, all I can do is give it a try ? I could sure use him to question people who know the name of my suspect and save me a lot of time trying to figure it out . (It is way too dangerous for me to do it.) No one else I know wants to do it either. But then I can’t blame them, everyone else who has tried to help me so far ,has been harmed or nearly killed by this guy. Thank you, Sandy. Did not see your response earlier. -Nin tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:02 pm It was speculated by LE that the tape was put on the knife so the killers hand wouldn’t slip. But now I am thinking that it could have been because the handle was weak because of the crack ? So you think Zodiac was Barry? I just don’t get it. Some knives are found in a wall, someone says that looks like it could be Zodiac’s and here we go…. Sorry, but if if Captainfun11 claims to not really know anything about the Zodiac case…I’m not sure what to make of any of this?? :scratch: He said something on his youtube stuff about him being sure this was Zodiac, but if he doesn’t know much about the case then how is he so sure? I think he could find a few seconds to chime in. We got a lovely introduction. Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:30 pm He I did ask him about Barry’s military records, and told him what Seagull had found on Ancestry. He said that Barry had one tour of duty in Vietnam as he told in his obituary and on Ancestry it also shows 20 disciplinary actions against him. He wasn’t able to see what exactly they were. I posted everything related to Barry’s military service that is posted at Ancestry. There are no disiplinary actions against Barry posted at Ancestry! Others here have Ancestry accounts and could confirm this. Here is the page where I posted the records of Muster Rolls for Barry- … the-zodiac If anyone can see disiplinary actions in these records please let me know because I just don’t see it. How does the Captain know the records are disiplinary actions if he wasn’t able to see exactly what they were? AK Wilks, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:54 pm He went from private to corporal in 4 years. That is average to good. i did 8 years in the army reserves and never got past Spec 4! Now looking at the chronolog y I do see some instances were it seems he went down one level in rank but that may or may not be the case. Also a demotion is not really a disciplinary action or a result of major misconduct. I got demoted once for being late to formation. You can get demerits for lateness boots not shined failing a test etc. Overall it sems Barry had an average to good Marine Corps record honorable service and honorable service as a policeman. The big question is how are the knives connected to Zodiac or Barry? There are 4000 unsolved murders every year so what is there to make the knives suggest Zodiac who usually killed with a gun as opposed to the 80000 unsolved murders over the last 20 years? Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:08 pm He went from private to corporal in 4 years. That is average to good. i did 8 years in the army reserves and never got past Spec 4! Now looking at the chronolog y I do see some instances were it seems he went down one level in rank but that may or may not be the case. Also a demotion is not really a disciplinary action or a result of major misconduct. I got demoted once for being late to formation. You can get demerits for lateness boots not shined failing a test etc. Overall it sems Barry had an average to good Marine Corps record honorable service and honorable service as a policeman. The big question is how are the knives connected to Zodiac or Barry? There are 4000 unsolved murders every year so what is there to make the knives suggest Zodiac who usually killed with a gun as opposed to the 80000 unsolved murders over the last 20 years? At first glance it does look like Barry went down in rank but if you look closer you will see that some of the dates are out of order. The first part of 1955 he was a private first class, or E2, but the second half of the year he was a Coporal, E3. The last entry is for the prevoius year. I copied and pasted what and how it was posted at Ancestry and they didn’t quite get it all chronological. I too wonder why out of all the murders in California, so many unsoved, the Captain fixated on Barry being the Zodiac. Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:28 pm I did ask him about Barry’s military records, and told him what Seagull had found on Ancestry. He said that Barry had one tour of duty in Vietnam as he told in his obituary and on Ancestry it also shows 20 disciplinary actions against him. He wasn’t able to see what exactly they were. . Please, tell me where in Bary’s obituary it says that he served in Vietnam? I read the thing three times and then did a word search for Vietnam but nothing about Vietnam is mentioned. Barrett Jean "Barry" Wysling I ( – ) Obituary Barrett (Barry) Jean Wysling I Feb. 6, 1935 – Oct. 2, 2009 Resident of Bethel Island Born in San Jose, Barry was the only child of Paul and Etta Wysling. A product of the Alameda, California school system, he graduated in the Class of June 1953. In the years to follow Barry was very involved in class reunions and subsequently formed the Hornet web site that increased communication between alumni. Barry’s next stop was the US Marine Corps where he served a tour of duty as a corporal at 29 Palms, CA. He built the first darkroom while being the base photographer and photo journalist in the Base Special Services Section. The following two years were spent at San Francisco City College studying criminology and another year at Oakland City College where prior to graduation, with an AA Degree, he was accepted as an Oakland Police Officer. In 1957 he started a career in law enforcement that lasted 22 ½ years. At OPD Barry served in many capacities that included Patrol, Jail, Communications, Community Relations, Internal Affairs, Criminal Investigation and his first love, Juvenile, where he did two four year tours. Barry served on the Oakland Council for the Boy Scouts and was Post Advisor and Institutional Representative for OPD. While in the police department Juvenile Division, Barry was Officer Friendly for the Romper Room show on Channel 2, KTVU. Barry obtained two lifetime teaching credentials from the State of California vocational educational department and was accredited to teach Police Science and Family Legal Needs and Responsibilities. Barry assisted the Oakland area Red Cross and trained United States Navy life guards for the Oak Knoll Navel Hospital. In 1978 he retired as a Detective Sergeant in the Robbery Section. Barry is the father of three sons: Michael, Bradley, and Jeffery who live in St. Joseph, Missouri with their families. He has two grandsons: Barrett J. II, and Anthony Joseph (AJ); and a granddaughter Barbara Jean. Upon retirement from Oakland, Barry started a new career in marina management by becoming the Harbor Master of Beacon Harbor on Bethel Island for eight years. That was followed by another seven years as Harbor Master for the City of Martinez. Always active in recreational boating, Barry was the Commodore of Encinal Yacht Club in Alameda in 1972 and 1973, and Commodore of the Northern California Power Cruiser Association in 1977. When Barry passed, he was the oldest member of the San Joaquin Yacht Club of Bethel Island, where he and his wife Marguerite joined in 1969. He was also a member of the International Order of the Blue Gavel. Barry was a member of Alameda Elks Club #1015 for approximately ten years, and was a member of the 1995-96 Contra Costa County Civil Grand Jury. Active locally, Barry spent several years on the Bethel Island Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors and was active in the B.I. Marina Owners Association. His participation included photographing various local events like the Meals on Wheels, Safety Fair and Citizen of the Year, to name a few. Barry concluded his Harbor Master carrier at Beacon Harbor as the widower of Marianne Holmes Wysling. He subsequently sold Beacon Harbor and permanently retired in 2005. Recreationally Barry enjoyed underwater photography in Hawaii where he frequently visited, while house/animal sitting for several friends. He also restored nautical artifacts which decorate the home of the San Joaquin Yacht Club, the M/S Sutter. Recently Barry took the opportunity to host his own "Going Away Bash" by inviting many club members, high school classmates, friends and neighbors to a cocktail party and pot luck at his home. He had long and deep friendships with many, some of whom dated back to kindergarten, including his previous wives, Frances Hazard of Rancho Mirage and Marguerite Lawry of Bethel Island. Most recently care was given by Kaiser Hospice and a wonderful significant other, Penny Givens-Berry, who provided home care which was equal to none. Contributions can be made to Kaiser Hospice. AK Wilks, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:39 pm Right. This Barry was in the Marines from 1953 to 1957. Not Vietnam era at all. Maybe there is another Barry Wysling who served in Nam and had disciplinary actions. Also I find it hard to believe Zodiac was a cop with a good record. True a cop would know guns tactis and procedures. But Zodiac seemed to hate cops and want to challenge them. Anyway welcome aboard Capt and I think it is good you are reading info here there is a lot of it. When youu feel more up to speed we look forward to learning more about your story and poi and seeing the handwriting. Nin, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:41 pm One of his sons: … sling.html Zamantha, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:42 pm A "little" update on Steve’o aka CaptainFun. I asked around the Island on Steve, curious to know more about him. All I have received so far are wonderful, positive reports! He is considered a nice, nice, nice man who is very well respected and liked. He also gives back to the community. Sandy & I also meant with Steve’o last night. I heard his story, saw the knives & yes they are quite large. (One does fit the Z profile, but of course that is my opinion) We spend 3 hours talking. I found his story and how he fell into the Zodiac information quite interesting. Not my place to tell his story, and I’m sure he will share with us in due time. Like Sandy posted, Steve’o is very busy with 2 jobs. He is also a crab fisherman and is getting ready for 3 months of crab fishing. PS: My impression of Steve, a nice, honest good guy! If he ever made any mistakes in his research, please keep in mind we have all done that! Not that I’m saying he did….but others are looking for mistakes. I also ask can we also look at the positive things and see if any of those pieces fit. Thanks for reading… Zincerely, Zam :star: tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:25 pm I don’t think anyone is questioning whether Steve’o is a nice guy. I just want to know what evidence he has to accuse this man of being the Zodiac killer. Not that he was a cop and likes the color blue. This man’s face was put on Youtube along with accusations of the man being a brutal serial killer….so let’s have it! tracers, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:55 pm So "other people are looking for mistakes"? Really? More like they FOUND them when trying to confirm what Steve posted on his YouTube. Seagull has no POI and has always presented the facts. i hope this is not going to turn into another Lafferty situation where people who use critical thinking skills and research the claims and then point out discrepancies are accused of having a hidden agenda or a POI to protect or Tom Voigt to kowtow to. If people didn’t look at things critically and question what they were told about this case and the suspects, we would still be thinking Graysmith got everything right and ALA was the Zodiac. Sure, let’s have Steve come here and more fully explain his case. But let’s not get on top of people who point out things that may be problematic about what he says by suggesting that people who do so are "picking on" the guy. Seagull, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:58 pm Looks like we won’t be seeing any handwriting according to a post made by the Captain on you tube. I am sorry, did you not see my comment about the handwriting sample? I will show anyone who has a poi in this case and I will only show samples in person.( Also, as you know I don’t want spread everywhere) Tom explained what had happened with you, and it opened my eyes to your situation, that to bad! Just keep up your wonderful work on the Zodiac, it will help keep your mind off it. Don’t be mad at Tom for telling me, and I will keep it to myself. Have a great weekend! captainfun11 in reply to Harry Horton (Show the comment) 5 hours ago Captain may be a busy man but he seems to have plenty of time for posting on you tube. Honestly, I have no problem where and when he chooses to post. If he doesn’t want to discuss his suspect at this forum that’s his perogitive but why join in the first place? As for "looking for mistakes" . When someone accuses an otherwise good man who has served his country in the military as well as risking his life as a policeman for 22 years in one of the roughest cites in the Bay Area, your darn tootin’ the mistakes made by the accuser will be looked at. The accuser has offered nothing but mistakes and innuendo to make his case. Please tell me the good and TRUE pieces of the accusers case against Wysling. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:30 pm Good points Seagull sandy betts, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:02 pm It was speculated by LE that the tape was put on the knife so the killers hand wouldn’t slip. But now I am thinking that it could have been because the handle was weak because of the crack ? So you think Zodiac was Barry? I just don’t get it. Some knives are found in a wall, someone says that looks like it could be Zodiac’s and here we go…. Sorry, but if if Captainfun11 claims to not really know anything about the Zodiac case…I’m not sure what to make of any of this?? :scratch: He said something on his youtube stuff about him being sure this was Zodiac, but if he doesn’t know much about the case then how is he so sure? I think he could find a few seconds to chime in. We got a lovely introduction. I don’t know where you got the idea that I think Barry is the Zodiac ? I was talking about a knife that was found in a wall, that supposedly had human blood on it and it looks a lot like the Lake B knife. I explained why the Zodiac may have put tape on his knife. From that you got I think Barry is the Zodiac really ? It should be obvious to everyone including Steve ,that I believe one of my POI’s is the Zodiac and no one else. I haven’t seen any "good evidence" in "anyones" poi’s except mine. It would take more than a bloody knife found hidden in a wall ,to convince me. But on the other hand ,I am willing to help anyone who asks for help with their POI’s. I plan on proving to him that Barry is not the Zodiac , he wants anyone not just me to show him. He wasn’t into the Zodiac at the time he found the knives, he was told when he found them that he should see if they could have belonged to the Zodiac . He started looking into the case at that time, what he found were things that started to fit Barry, from what he was learning about Zodiac. He went to VPD to show what he had , they kept one of the knives. And told him that the handwriting wouldn’t matter in the Z case, because the experts can’t even agree on some of the letters. He became discouraged and looked for help anywhere he could find it (That is my understanding). He has read some police reports and a very interesting Zodiac profile, he dosn’t know the case forwards and backwards like some of us, that is why he is asking for help. tahoe27, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:12 pm I was just messin’ with you Sandy. morf13, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:36 pm So far,the Captain is ALL SMOKE & NO FIRE. He comes up with a suspect that seems pretty interesting,and generates some attention,but then he keeps things hush-hush,doesnt want to share writing samples, etc…Hmm,where have we heard this before? Nin, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:45 pm So far,the Captain is ALL SMOKE & NO FIRE. He comes up with a suspect that seems pretty interesting,and generates some attention,but then he keeps things hush-hush,doesnt want to share writing samples, etc…Hmm,where have we heard this before? KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: YOU Tube says he found the Zodiac Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:31 pm :scratch: Who is this Captain Underpants 11? I saw:shock:that on you tube, I don’t know what to say. :no: It’ just a series of unfortunate events. It’s like one of those Alfred Hitchcock’s Movies.:suspect:
	Re: Riverside Parade Video and Video of Ross in Binghamton?!	35 Relevance	7 years ago	morf13	Ross Sullivan
	I don’t want to be tedious with linking videos but I find them interesting so I’m sure some of you will too! First, this is a 1966 Riverside Parade video. video quality is terrible. It’s interesting in general, though. Of note, Ramona High School Band plays in the parade. There is a Ross shaped blob with glasses on sitting on the courthouse steps over a lady’s shoulder around .13 seconds in that could have wing walkers on (and Ross’s hairline) but obviously it is impossible to identify with the quality of the video. FWIW the girl’s body language to his left is all about getting away from him imo. At any rate, enjoy Riverside 1966! Second video says it’s Binghamton in 1965. Board members, I don’t know what to make of this!! I know it sounds ridiculously implausible – i’ve been trying to talk myself out of it for a few days now – but a guy wanders close into the frame around .18 and I’m nearly positive it IS Ross Sullivan. Unfortunately, he doesn’t look directly at the camera and he is so close the shot is cutting off the top of his head but if you time it like a ninja you can hit a good two or three frames before the cut at .20 where you can pause and see the side profile very clearly. Ross has a distinct mouth where his bottom lip protrudes out a bit. Same mouth as Ross. This guy also has: same cheeks, same chin, same nose, same glasses, same eyes, same ears, same facial arrangement. This is 1965, so the video says, accuracy of that could be questioned, which would make Ross about 24 and this doesn’t fit at all with how I understand Ross’s timeline. I’d actually welcome you timing up a pause on the frame and telling me I’m crazy! If you want to go further down the rabbit hole, I can’t quite get a great image of the book he’s carrying but I can tell that it appears the back of it is facing us and it is a smallish book that is white with a red spine. I can’t find a picture of the back of it, but, just sayin, from what I’ve seen of the 1967 Laffin Codes & Ciphers, under the dust cover is an 8×5, 170ish page white book with a red spine. Please shoot this down so I can go back to my comfortable Ross Sullivan timeline haha! Riverside video to blurry. NY video, lips do look a bit like Ross. I don’t think Ross had a mole on his face and that guy does
	Video about the Zodiac Ciphers on National Geographic	34 Relevance	13 years ago	morf13	Zodiac Cipher Mailings & Discussion
	morf13, Subject: video about the Zodiac Ciphers on National Geographic Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:06 am Here is a video about the Ciphers from National Geographic (with some really cheesy acting too) … -code.html Please take note, at 1:12 into the video, they show a Zodiac letter I have never seen before…sent to the BAY AREA OBSERVER. I think it may just be a prop forthe video, I dont even know if that was a real newspaper in SF area…anybody know? , Subject: Re: video about the Zodiac Ciphers on National Geographic Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:50 am I’ve seen that discussed before. It was in fact just a prop. There is no San Fran Observer. Even pics of the letters show that they are incorrect reproductions… at one point you can read the text as "chase around town" instead of "cruse around town" from Z’s first letter. They did not make a very good attempt at accuracy. morf13, Subject: Re: video about the Zodiac Ciphers on National Geographic Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:50 am I’ve seen that discussed before. It was in fact just a prop. There is no San Fran Observer. Even pics of the letters show that they are incorrect reproductions… at one point you can read the text as "chase around town" instead of "cruse around town" from Z’s first letter. They did not make a very good attempt at accuracy. Thanks, it was 6:15 am when I posted that and I wasnt all the way awake…
	Riverside Parade Video and Video of Ross in Binghamton?!	29 Relevance	7 years ago	Khys	Ross Sullivan
	I don’t want to be tedious with linking videos but I find them interesting so I’m sure some of you will too! First, this is a 1966 Riverside Parade video. video quality is terrible. It’s interesting in general, though. Of note, Ramona High School Band plays in the parade. There is a Ross shaped blob with glasses on sitting on the courthouse steps over a lady’s shoulder around .13 seconds in that could have wing walkers on (and Ross’s hairline) but obviously it is impossible to identify with the quality of the video. FWIW the girl’s body language to his left is all about getting away from him imo. At any rate, enjoy Riverside 1966! Second video says it’s Binghamton in 1965. Board members, I don’t know what to make of this!! I know it sounds ridiculously implausible – i’ve been trying to talk myself out of it for a few days now – but a guy wanders close into the frame around .18 and I’m nearly positive it IS Ross Sullivan. Unfortunately, he doesn’t look directly at the camera and he is so close the shot is cutting off the top of his head but if you time it like a ninja you can hit a good two or three frames before the cut at .20 where you can pause and see the side profile very clearly. Ross has a distinct mouth where his bottom lip protrudes out a bit. Same mouth as Ross. This guy also has: same cheeks, same chin, same nose, same glasses, same eyes, same ears, same facial arrangement. This is 1965, so the video says, accuracy of that could be questioned, which would make Ross about 24 and this doesn’t fit at all with how I understand Ross’s timeline. I’d actually welcome you timing up a pause on the frame and telling me I’m crazy! If you want to go further down the rabbit hole, I can’t quite get a great image of the book he’s carrying but I can tell that it appears the back of it is facing us and it is a smallish book that is white with a red spine. I can’t find a picture of the back of it, but, just sayin, from what I’ve seen of the 1967 Laffin Codes & Ciphers, under the dust cover is an 8×5, 170ish page white book with a red spine. Please shoot this down so I can go back to my comfortable Ross Sullivan timeline haha!
	CJB in 1966 Riverside Parade Video?	25 Relevance	10 years ago	vasa croe	Cheri Jo Bates 10/30/66
	So I happened upon this video of a parade from Riverside, CA in 1966 from what the YT link says. Interesting to see the town. I have an odd question about this video…at the 3:43 minute mark there is a "float" with a girl dressed in white on the back and the obvious focus of the cameraman. Then at 3:55, the video takes a strange cut to that same woman walking down a street that is not in the parade, then the video cuts back to the parade. Now I know the video is somewhat blurry, but that girl looks a LOT like CJB to me. Anyone else? She seems to have the same jawline and facial features, though I doubt anyone but someone that actually knew her would be able to tell…..interesting blue car in the video at that point too…. Anyone know if she ever took part in parades like this? https://youtu.be/kDBBdgQKbJo
	Re: Riverside Parade Video and Video of Ross in Binghamton?!	20 Relevance	7 years ago	Khys	Ross Sullivan
	MIght have found something significant looking back at these. I’ve zoomed in on the Riverside parade video and I think I’ve got the purse Cheri Jo was carrying when she was murdered with the woman in the video next to the Ross shaped blog. If you are interested I’ll link a blog article I just did with screenshots for you to have a look at since I’ve never been able to figure out how to post them here.
	Re: Joe Stine's Television Interview – KPIX 10/22/69	19 Relevance	13 years ago	Tahoe27	Paul Stine 10/11/69
	From the old site: , Subject: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:51 pm This was apparently posted over on ZK.com. It’s pretty interesting, and features Joe Stine and Melvin Belli, among others. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:29 am I feel so sad watching this; you can see that Joe Stine is a good person and really hurting while trying to put up a "brave front"… Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:49 am Did anyone notice, in the vidoe, that Joe Stine (Paul Stine´s brother) had, what seems to be, scratches on his cheek? This video is 11 days after His brother was killed. Additional info of possible interest: Joe Stine did live in Vallejo in 1968. (this was stated in his stepfather Roy James Harrison´s obit in Oct 1968,posted on Zodiackiller.com by Tom V ) Joe Stine divorced his wife Helen in Kings County in September 1970 One of Paul and Joe Stine´s siters was married twice and had several children in Solano county. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:52 am He worked in a gas station/garage, so I just assume that is oil, or scratches from working under a car. That is pretty common for mechanics, to get oil, scratches, debris, dirt, cuts or whatever on their faces and hands… Obviously the police would have detained him for questioning if they felt anything else were going on. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:49 am He worked in a gas station/garage, so I just assume that is oil, or scratches from working under a car. That is pretty common for mechanics, to get oil, scratches, debris, dirt, cuts or whatever on their faces and hands… Obviously the police would have detained him for questioning if they felt anything else were going on. I dont agree, IMO it IS scratches. And it is kind of strange that it seems that Joe didn´t mention that he had lived in Vallejo in 1968 when the Farraday/Jensen murders took place. And also interesting is the fact that, Paul and Joe Stine´s sister Carol had HUGE conections in Solano County, she married/divorced twice between 1966-1977and had two children in Solano County, the first child in July 1968 the last in 1977! WHY has this never come out??? , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:02 am Zabagliona wrote: He worked in a gas station/garage, so I just assume that is oil, or scratches from working under a car. That is pretty common for mechanics, to get oil, scratches, debris, dirt, cuts or whatever on their faces and hands… Obviously the police would have detained him for questioning if they felt anything else were going on. Yes, like I said, mechanics get dirty and scratched all the time. I am not quite understanding what is so earth shattering about them "having connections" in Solano county, and what those connections were?? , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:20 am The Modesto Bee Wednesday, October 22, 1969 MODESTAN OFFERS TO BE KILLERS VICTIM Joe Stine, 31, of Modesto, brother of a San Francisco cab driver who was slain by the killer known as Zodiac, offered himself today as the Zodiac’s next victim. "I’ve been thinking about it since they found that little girl killed in San Jose." Joe Stine said as he tightened a tire rod in the southwest Modesto service station where he works as a mechanic. Brother Died "I decided to do it this morning and called the (San Francisco) Examiner and told them," Stine said. "It’s pretty hard to lose a brother and just forget about it. Maybe if he makes an attempt on me they can close the area off and get him." Joe’s brother Paul was shot to death Oct. 11 while working the night shift for the Yellow Cab Company in San Francisco. The Hughson High School and Fresno State College graduate was selling insurance during the day and driving a cab nights while studying for his doctor of philosophy degree at San Francisco State College. He would have received the degree in January. Paul Stine was killed instantly when the killer put a nine millimeter automatic to his cheek and pulled the trigger. The killer was seen wiping down the inside of the bloodied cab with piece of cloth, believed to have been torn from Paul’s undershirt. A piece of the cloth was sent to The San Francisco Chronicle by a man who claimed he committed four other murders in the Napa and Vallejo areas. He has called himself the Zodiac. While Joe Stine, who lives with his mother in a small home in south Modesto, admits to being nervous about the prospect of the killer taking up his challenge, the only evidence of any nervousness is the precaution he takes when leaving the lube room for the gas pumps. Checks Driver A man in a pickup truck pulled into the station, setting off the customary gong.Stine walked slowly o the lube room door, then, satisfied the driver was not Zodiac, walked out to wait on him. Joe was asked if he thinks the killer will accept his challenge, "I hope he does, though I’m not real brave about it. Actually, I figure he will," Stine added. Joe Stine is small, balding and has flashing blue eyes. He wears a brown uniform when he works at Merle Barnes Richfield service station at Sutter and Rouse avenues. His arms are coated with grease and there are cuts on his knuckles from slips of the wrench. "I gave The Examiner my work schedule to make it easier for Zodiac," Joe says "I go to work at 7 a.m. and am off at 5 p.m., I go to lunch every day at The Walking Chicken up at the corner at noon." Doesn’t Know What is the reaction of the woman whose youngest son has already been slain by Zodiac and whose oldest son has offered himself to be a target for the killer ? "She doesn’t know yet," Stine answers "But I’m going to catch hell when she does. I’m going to catch hell from my relatives too." Audra Harrison, mother of Joe and Paul Stine, has been under heavy medication since the death of Paul, Joe said. Joe lives alone with his mother. His ex-wife has Joe’s only child, an 8-year-old boy. Joe will not tell where they live. Joe graduated from Sonora High School, spent half a semester at Modesto Junior College and a semester at business school before he joined the Army. He spent seven years in the service and was stationed in Korea and France. Although Joe spends his days working on cars, he does not own one. He rides a rickety bicycle to work. Joe has not asked for any police protection. He is not carrying a weapon. "I’d rather he get me than to have that nut kill a bunch of kids." AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:26 am Someone reacted to Joe Stine very strongly. Doug Oswell and I, and some others, wonder if this letter from AROUSED is actually the Zodiac. Someone else pointed out the the Johns attack was near this very area where Joe Stine worked. Was Zodiac sending a message? Did Zodiac write this letter? , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:32 am Very, very interesting, AK!!! Yes, I think it is possible; does anyone know if the name of the check sender was ever revealed?? Since he indicates he sent a "small check", a name would have been on it… Either the guy is who he says, an innocent classmate, or ??? , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:35 am …looks like it is still a gas station, amazingly enough, cannot tell if there is still an oeprating garage there too…If you turn and look across the street from the gas station, I would guess that the garage used to be there, or it is the one across the street from the side of the gas station… … CAgQ8gEwAA It would be interesting to find out…somehow… if a check was ever sent in… AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:38 am Zab = "Either the guy is who he says, an innocent classmate, or ???" Yeah, kinda like the Hautz letter, is it from an innocent classmate or…something else? This writer wouldn’t give his name. And the fake name given, AROUSED, is odd! Why does he pick AROUSED? I could see the Zodiac would be AROUSED by Joe Stine’s challenge. No indication if a check was ever sent in. On the surface the letter praises Joe Stine, but beneath the surface it seems to be mocking him. AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:42 am This is speculative, but it also fits into an entire series of letters, which usually purport to be from a "concerned citizen", "helpful tipster", "friend of the killer" or the actual killer, which I discovered in a bunch of cases I had linked as possibly having Zodiac and/or TK connections. And what do the names of these letter senders all have in common? ANONYMOUS AROUSED ARMCHAIR A CITIZEN A FRIEND AFRAID ALLEN ARGUS AVENGER or LORDS AVENGER AFACFJS , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:56 am In addition to having a "comic book superhero" "je ne sais quoi", they all begin with the letter "A"… :bball: , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:00 am TheForeigner, what would you estimate Joe Stine’s height and weight to be…?? (I would say about 5’4" and maybe 145 lbs soaking wet…) Thank you Mr. Bungle for posting this…. My "sixth sense" feels that this is a man who is suffering greatly (look at his eyes), and has internalized it… Zamantha, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:40 am He worked in a gas station/garage, so I just assume that is oil, or scratches from working under a car. That is pretty common for mechanics, to get oil, scratches, debris, dirt, cuts or whatever on their faces and hands… Obviously the police would have detained him for questioning if they felt anything else were going on. I dont agree, IMO it IS scratches. And it is kind of strange that it seems that Joe didn´t mention that he had lived in Vallejo in 1968 when the Farraday/Jensen murders took place. And also interesting is the fact that, Paul and Joe Stine´s sister Carol had HUGE conections in Solano County, she married/divorced twice between 1966-1977and had two children in Solano County, the first child in July 1968 the last in 1977! WHY has this never come out??? The Foreigner, I find all the Vallejo connections interesting. I don’t think all the posters here are aware of them, since they were brought up on Tom’s site. But when I first read/heard that it did make me go Hmmmmm very interesting. I sometimes feel the LE did interview their man, and let him go… didn’t have enough…or couldn’t do anything about it. I say good eye for seeing those starches or marks…. and dig around more. You can’t rule someone out my lookin into their eyes. Nin is right in what they posted on another thread, we may just someday stumble upon something, prepare to stumble. Not saying this is it, but hey everyone don’t be so quick to say No, dig around and then prove him no. * I honestly feel the police could of detained their man ( whichever one he is) and let him go…..it does happen. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:17 pm Thanks Zamatha Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:19 pm Someone reacted to Joe Stine very strongly. Doug Oswell and I, and some others, wonder if this letter from AROUSED is actually the Zodiac. Someone else pointed out the the Johns attack was near this very area where Joe Stine worked. Was Zodiac sending a message? Did Zodiac write this letter? Or, who knows, it could have been Joe Stine himself who wrote that letter. By the way: Joe Stine was 7 years in the Army, France and Korea. An Air Force veteran. tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:28 pm The gas station Joe worked at was on Rouse Avenue. AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:49 pm In addition to having a "comic book superhero" "je ne sais quoi", they all begin with the letter "A"… :bball: tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:56 pm And TF–I think it could be damn significant that Joe Stine lived in Vallejo and IMPERATIVE LE know this. I mean, come on! You have the brother of a Zodiac victim having lived in the same town where the Zodiac attacks started (at least in Z’s eyes) and that is of NO importance??? WTF? Joe could have worked with him, lived next door to him, had an altercation with him….there are just soooo many reasons it would be important to mention you lived in Vallejo…HELLO???????????? Looking for ties and connections is numero uno. It very well may be nothing, but to say nothing…"hey I lived there"….I don’t get it. Guess it just slipped his mind. Of course Joe would be upset his brother was murdered, but it sure doesn’t show in that video. Probably just overwhelmed by the media attention. Many have thought Joe wrote the "Aroused" letter himself. A grown man having to ride his bike to work. He was obviously in a financial bind. Who knows… AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:57 pm The gas station Joe worked at was on Rouse Avenue. The :study: award goes to Tahoe27! So this writer was perhaps in effect sending a "shot across the bow" by letting Joe Stine know that he knew where he worked. tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:02 pm Thanks AK. But, I believe Joe himself offered that info to Zodiac…along with the fact he lived with his Mother. Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:04 pm The gas station Joe worked at was on Rouse Avenue. great catch tahoe ! AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:06 pm Right. But perhaps the writer used a variation on the street name as a way of saying "I heard where you live…" It is just one more add thing about this letter, and it fits into the "A" pattern. Just in the Zodiac case we have: ANONYMOUS AROUSED ARMCHAIR A CITIZEN A FRIEND Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:07 pm And TF–I think it could be damn significant that Joe Stine lived in Vallejo and IMPERATIVE LE know this. I mean, come on! You have the brother of a Zodiac victim having lived in the same town where the Zodiac attacks started (at least in Z’s eyes) and that is of NO importance??? WTF? Joe could have worked with him, lived next door to him, had an altercation with him….there are just soooo many reasons it would be important to mention you lived in Vallejo…HELLO???????????? Looking for ties and connections is numero uno. It very well may be nothing, but to say nothing…"hey I lived there"….I don’t get it. Guess it just slipped his mind. Of course Joe would be upset his brother was murdered, but it sure doesn’t show in that video. Probably just overwhelmed by the media attention. Many have thought Joe wrote the "Aroused" letter himself. A grown man having to ride his bike to work. He was obviously in a financial bind. Who knows… Couldn´t agree more, great post tahoe. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:11 pm He is barely taller than the car he is standing next to… Tahoe, who were the "many" that thought that Joe wrote the letter himself; I had not heard this. Clearly he was in a financial bind, he was divorced and paying child support; however, since any insurance Paul had would have gone to his wife, I again, absolutely do not understand your logic here. Other than having a visceral reaction to a man who did not do anything, you and theForeigner are making no sense……to me, anyway… Zamantha, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:14 pm He is barely taller than the car he is standing next to… TheForeigner, who were the "many" that thought that Joe wrote the letter himself; I had not heard this. Clearly he was in a financial bind, he was divorced and paying child support; however, since any insurance Paul had would have gone to his wife, I again, absolutely do not understand your logic here. Hey Zag, it’s ok not to understand The F. logic….but lets’ let her continue, OK. This is the free speech forum, so she’s allowed to stay open minded an look at everything. Plus, we all have discussed where the discription of the Z could be a little off……….who knows…………I know I don’t. But I want to hear the ideas…. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:16 pm I am sorry for stating a fact. In the beginning of the video, the man who is being interviewed is cleary barely taller than the car he is standing next to/leaning against. I do not understand how this is offensive. tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:30 pm He is barely taller than the car he is standing next to… Tahoe, who were the "many" that thought that Joe wrote the letter himself; I had not heard this. Clearly he was in a financial bind, he was divorced and paying child support; however, since any insurance Paul had would have gone to his wife, I again, absolutely do not understand your logic here. Other than having a visceral reaction to a man who did not do anything, you and theForeigner are making no sense……to me, anyway… Some other posters have stated this in the past at other sites. Just meaning it wasn’t news some have thought Joe could have written the letter himself in order to get sympathy and possibly receive money from folks to purchase a car. Has nothing to do with Joe’s insurance. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:31 pm Got it; I understand now….thanks! , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:31 pm Got it; I understand now….thanks! Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:20 pm The Modesto Bee Wednesday, October 22, 1969 MODESTAN OFFERS TO BE KILLERS VICTIM Joe Stine, 31, of Modesto, brother of a San Francisco cab driver who was slain by the killer known as Zodiac, offered himself today as the Zodiac’s next victim. "I’ve been thinking about it since they found that little girl killed in San Jose." Joe Stine said as he tightened a tire rod in the southwest Modesto service station where he works as a mechanic. Brother Died "I decided to do it this morning and called the (San Francisco) Examiner and told them," Stine said. "It’s pretty hard to lose a brother and just forget about it. Maybe if he makes an attempt on me they can close the area off and get him." Joe’s brother Paul was shot to death Oct. 11 while working the night shift for the Yellow Cab Company in San Francisco. The Hughson High School and Fresno State College graduate was selling insurance during the day and driving a cab nights while studying for his doctor of philosophy degree at San Francisco State College. He would have received the degree in January. Paul Stine was killed instantly when the killer put a nine millimeter automatic to his cheek and pulled the trigger. The killer was seen wiping down the inside of the bloodied cab with piece of cloth, believed to have been torn from Paul’s undershirt. A piece of the cloth was sent to The San Francisco Chronicle by a man who claimed he committed four other murders in the Napa and Vallejo areas. He has called himself the Zodiac. While Joe Stine, who lives with his mother in a small home in south Modesto, admits to being nervous about the prospect of the killer taking up his challenge, the only evidence of any nervousness is the precaution he takes when leaving the lube room for the gas pumps. Checks Driver A man in a pickup truck pulled into the station, setting off the customary gong.Stine walked slowly o the lube room door, then, satisfied the driver was not Zodiac, walked out to wait on him. Joe was asked if he thinks the killer will accept his challenge, "I hope he does, though I’m not real brave about it. Actually, I figure he will," Stine added. Joe Stine is small, balding and has flashing blue eyes. He wears a brown uniform when he works at Merle Barnes Richfield service station at Sutter and Rouse avenues. His arms are coated with grease and there are cuts on his knuckles from slips of the wrench. "I gave The Examiner my work schedule to make it easier for Zodiac," Joe says "I go to work at 7 a.m. and am off at 5 p.m., I go to lunch every day at The Walking Chicken up at the corner at noon." Doesn’t Know What is the reaction of the woman whose youngest son has already been slain by Zodiac and whose oldest son has offered himself to be a target for the killer ? "She doesn’t know yet," Stine answers "But I’m going to catch hell when she does. I’m going to catch hell from my relatives too." Audra Harrison, mother of Joe and Paul Stine, has been under heavy medication since the death of Paul, Joe said. Joe lives alone with his mother. His ex-wife has Joe’s only child, an 8-year-old boy. Joe will not tell where they live. Joe graduated from Sonora High School, spent half a semester at Modesto Junior College and a semester at business school before he joined the Army. He spent seven years in the service and was stationed in Korea and France. Although Joe spends his days working on cars, he does not own one. He rides a rickety bicycle to work. Joe has not asked for any police protection. He is not carrying a weapon. "I’d rather he get me than to have that nut kill a bunch of kids." The newsarticle says that JS was 31, but Joe Stine was 34 in 1969, he was born June 10th 1935: California Death Index, 1940-1997 about Joe Charles Stine Name: Joe Charles Stine Social Security #: 564424684 Sex: MALE Birth Date: 10 Jun 1935 Birthplace: Oklahoma Death Date: 1 Aug 1981 Death Place: Stanislaus Mother’s Maiden Name:Busby And he died very young , only 46 years old, anyone know how he died? Not that it has to mean anything, but he died on the exact 12 year aniversery of Zodiac´s name debut letter August 1st, 1969. Joe´s stephfather died Oct 10, 1968, 1 year and 1 day prior to the Paul Stine murder. Joe´s divorce was dated Sep 1970 Those who asked if Joe Stine had any children, yes he had a son, named Mark in Sep 1961, born in Fresno County. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:36 pm STINE, JOE 564-42-4684 Birth: 10 Jun 1935 Death: Aug 1981 Yes, I get the same thing from the SSDI. Ask Tahoe or Tracers; they may know how he died, having access to the scrapbook of family information on another site. tracers, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:35 pm IIRC, it was a poster named Davidmad at Tom’s site who first posted the "Aroused" letter in August 2007: … ed&start=0 I recall a while back in chat, Sandy, Ricardo and Calman were talking about a trip they took to find out more about Paul. They took some pix of the gas station. Did these get posted? I forget, AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:24 pm Yes I think those are posted here somewhere, and as I recall, they showed the Joe Stine gas station fairly close to where Johns was abducted. Found it. … r-t206.htm tracers, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:32 pm Thanks AK! And Thanks to Sandy, Ricardo and Calman! Zamantha, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:24 pm I am sorry for stating a fact. In the beginning of the video, the man who is being interviewed is cleary barely taller than the car he is standing next to/leaning against. I do not understand how this is offensive. Zab, what I meant in this post was not coming down on you or anyone. But some of these threads are interesting, and I love to see the research done on this thread. I by not means am saying Joe Stine is guilty. But I’m interested in the case presentation by The Foreigner and Tahoe on this one. SO, far…I found some of it interesting. Also, alot of people nay a thread because of their own agenda, POI or theory. I would just like everyone to have a chance to tell their thoughts, and show what they found, and then yes of course agree to disagree with them. But nice to give them a chance to post everything first. Also, I don’t think everyone here on Morf’s Board knows that you used to work with Claudia Stine, Pauls wife, I was hoping you could tell us a little about what years you two worked together, what type of job. Did you talk alot, where you friends out side of work? Are you still in connect. Also if you could share with us what she shared with you about Paul and the case. Totally appreciate it! Zam* tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:36 pm JOE STINE 34 Years old[/:m:4dtg3t1o][/list:u:4dtg3t1o] 5′ 7"[/:m:4dtg3t1o][/list:u:4dtg3t1o] 165 pounds[/:m:4dtg3t1o][/list:u:4dtg3t1o] zodiackiller.com Theforeigner, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:07 pm JOE STINE 34 Years old[/:m:4dtg3t1o][/list:u:4dtg3t1o] 5′ 7"[/:m:4dtg3t1o][/list:u:4dtg3t1o] 165 pounds[/:m:4dtg3t1o][/list:u:4dtg3t1o] zodiackiller.com Thaks tahoe. here are 3 description of the hight od the Zodiac killer, from 3 of his murders, ALL 3 description include 5.8" as a possibility: "Michael Mageau survived the attack and was able to give a description of the shooter to authorities. He described the attacker as a short, heavyset white man, about 5′ 8" and around 195 pounds." "Cecelia Ann Shepard and Bryan Calvin Hartnell, two college students who had also made a spontaneous trip from Angwin, were picnicking at Twin Oak Ridge, a peninsula on the western shore of the lake, at twilight when they were approached by a man later described as 5’8" to 6′ tall, dark-haired, and heavyset, wearing a dark jacket and dark clothing that seemed sloppy or dishevelled." " The three witnesses watched the suspect from approximately 60 feet away as he wiped down the cab with a cloth after killing Stine. They called the police and described a white male, 25 to 30 years old, 5’8" to 5’9", stocky build, reddish-brown hair worn in a crew cut, heavy-rimmed glasses and dark clothing." Concerning how heavy Zodiac was, that could easily have been changed by the Zodiac by adding extra clothes etc. And Joe was actually pretty broad-shouldered guy, and as he himself stated in the newsarticle tahoe posted "I´m in excellent shape" tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:20 pm Sort of interesting. The first composite states 5’8" – 5’9". But, the revised version sticks with the shorter height and drops the 5′ 9". tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:02 pm This was apparently posted over on ZK.com. It’s pretty interesting, and features Joe Stine and Melvin Belli, among others. Let’s give NIN a shout-out for finding this one! :affraid: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star: tracers, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:11 pm YAY NIN! tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:30 pm I cannot stand Melvin Belli. Zamantha, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm I cannot stand Melvin Belli. Once a long while back, when having lunch at a well known SF restaurant , If ONLY I could remember the name, Melvin Belli was there at his usual table. Weather you liked him or not, you could feel his presence. I had all I could do not to go say Hi PS. Thank you Nin for finding that info. & Thank you Mr. Bungle for posting it for us to read Nachtsider, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:11 pm You guys can’t possibly be suggesting that Joe Stine might be… Right? Right? :suspect: , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:38 pm I am sorry for stating a fact. In the beginning of the video, the man who is being interviewed is cleary barely taller than the car he is standing next to/leaning against. I do not understand how this is offensive. Zab, what I meant in this post was not coming down on you or anyone. But some of these threads are interesting, and I love to see the research done on this thread. I by not means am saying Joe Stine is guilty. But I’m interested in the case presentation by The Foreigner and Tahoe on this one. SO, far…I found some of it interesting. Also, alot of people nay a thread because of their own agenda, POI or theory. I would just like everyone to have a chance to tell their thoughts, and show what they found, and then yes of course agree to disagree with them. But nice to give them a chance to post everything first. Also, I don’t think everyone here on Morf’s Board knows that you used to work with Claudia Stine, Pauls wife, I was hoping you could tell us a little about what years you two worked together, what type of job. Did you talk alot, where you friends out side of work? Are you still in connect. Also if you could share with us what she shared with you about Paul and the case. Totally appreciate it! Zam* Hi Zam! I will only give very limited information on here as I have (the website owner previously arrested for stalking and threatening) threatening me, and I have kids. I have already sent you much more detailed information which you should still have. I am also NOT going to give out info. on the type of job and where, as it would lead people to her, and she DOES NOT want that…AT ALL. You will notice, she is about the ONLY family member/spouse/significant other of a Z murder victim who PURPOSELY STAYED OUT OF THE LIMELIGHT. She did not want ANYTHING to do with the movie or any of the other crap that has gone on regarding this case. Yes, I was Claudia’s friend outside of work, and the only one she trusted to watch her Siamese cat when she went away. She also adored my husband, who I think reminded her a lot of Paul. No, I am not in touch with her as much any more, which I am sad about. (I worked with her quite closely for a number of years.) However, it is one of those things where when we do talk, we "catch up" fast. She never took off her wedding ring, which was gold, handmade and very prominent. it had two thin bands of gold at each end, and was very wide and tall, and in between was a fairly intricate carved piece with pine trees. That’s why the "pine tree" think has always intrigued me with Z; did Paul have a similar ring, maybe a smaller one with Pine trees on it? if it was not on him, did Z take that too? I have always wondered, but never asked her. I always let her talk about things when she wanted too, and never asked a lot of questions. Suffice it to say, she is a private person…VERY much so, so I will say that this event devastated her to the core….they (she and Paul) wanted to have a family, and she chose to never remarry nor to have kids, even though she wanted them very badly. She was godmother and aunt, and adopted aunt to many kids, and was wonderful with them. She is extremely intelligent, and witty, with the biggest heart you can imagine. She cared for her elderly mother, and many elderly relatives and friends too, and still does…. She said that when she was informed of his murder in the middle of the night, it was as if "someone let all of the air out of her and she could not breathe." She had to Leave CA and make the rest of her life elsewhere. Yes, we talked a lot, mostly about work and philopsophies on life in general, not specifically about her husband’s murder, except that I can share that she thought Z was seriously mentally ill, and was not specifically targeting her husband by "name"….meaning, she thought he was out to murder a cabbie, but did not know her husband. My husband would always help her out when she asked, would fix small things for her and give her boxes of candy (she is 20 years or so older than us, so it was no issue…)…on her birthday, he would come into my work and go over and give her a box of candy and everyone would fuss over her as she was a person who asked for nothing and was and is always giving of herself. She is the ONLY person I have NEVER bugged about smoking, because I understand why she cannot quit. I appreciate what you are saying, and I am respectful, except that I think sometimes, when a "line is crossed", that should be pointed out. For example, if I ever started a thread saying that I thought Claudia was Z because she stays out of the limelight, and knew all of the involved CA cities like the back of her hand, I would hope you would give me a "time out" for that… I also have no regrets about being VERY vocal here when people where suggesting "playing detective" and confronting people, and trespassing and defacing property. IOW, what separates us as human beings from flatworms, for example, is our ability to use logic and reason and to make judgements and decisions, despite people having this extreme fear nowadays of being "overly judgemental"… That’s just my $.02… I love being here, and appreciate all of the research done by people who are much smarter and more talented than I am. When I have gotten "harsh" is when I feel a "line" has been crossed, or a law is/is about to be broken, or there is a major philosophical issue/tenet of humanity about to be violated…I am also very direct, in case y’all hadn’t noticed… :bball: , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:41 pm Hi Tahoe, Was he really 5’7"….I am 5’7 1/2", and I am quite a bit taller than he is in stocking feet relative to a car…Are you sure of that? AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:14 pm Zab That was very interesting. Thank you for sharing that with us. It really reminds us of the damage that a killer does, how it goes on and on, long after the deed. If this case is ever solved, it pleases me to think it will bring a small bit of satisfaction and closure to the families. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:26 pm You guys can’t possibly be suggesting that Joe Stine might be… Right? Right? :suspect: I’m with you, Nacht…I’m SO with you. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:37 pm Zabagliona That was very touching and a Huge reminder that z did not kill or even meet all his victims. I think it shouild point out to all of us the need to be "very carefull" not only in this case but in all of our endeavours. Do or say the wrong thing or the right thing and the reprecussions travel out like ripples in a pond. Claudia sounds like an outstanding person I wish her the best. Zamantha, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:47 pm You guys can’t possibly be suggesting that Joe Stine might be… Right? Right? :suspect: I’m with you, Nacht…I’m SO with you. Now Guys, NO one is suggesting anything. T.F. & Tahoe are just looking at things. Kinda like the LE had to do. You had to look at things to weigh them in or out…… geeeeeeze tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:00 am My interest is primarily Joe living in Vallejo and who he may have been associated with. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:21 am My interest is primarily Joe living in Vallejo and who he may have been associated with. It is a new direction that hasn’t been looked into. Definitely merits some further research. AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:45 am Every aspect should be looked in to. You might theorize that if Joe Stine lived in Vallejo, and Z lived there, a basis for a grudge could be formed, with Z deciding to kill Joe’s brother. Problem is every bit of available evidence shows that Zodiac hailed a random cab and had no idea who the driver was. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:57 am Problem is every bit of available evidence shows that Zodiac hailed a random cab and had no idea who the driver was. I can’t think of any evidence that shows this? It has been argued on boards time and time again but the theory that Z knew Stine has not been debunked, imo. tahoe27, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:56 am I wanted to add I think TF does bring up some interesting things that I feel at this site–being private, gives a little more leeway to discuss other possibilities. I think Zam said it well above. There are things I question and am curious to know more. Nachtsider, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:03 am My interest is primarily Joe living in Vallejo and who he may have been associated with. Ah, okay. Phew. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:32 am Problem is every bit of available evidence shows that Zodiac hailed a random cab and had no idea who the driver was. I can’t think of any evidence that shows this? It has been argued on boards time and time again but the theory that Z knew Stine has not been debunked, imo. I’m with AK here…where’s even the slightest bit of evidence that Zodiac knew Stine? This is heading in a Graysmith/Darlene Ferrin direction. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:08 am …….. I by not means am saying Joe Stine is guilty. But I’m interested in the case presentation by The Foreigner and Tahoe on this one. SO, far…I found some of it interesting. Also, alot of people nay a thread because of their own agenda, POI or theory. I would just like everyone to have a chance to tell their thoughts, and show what they found, and then yes of course agree to disagree with them. Sorry Zam, but on this one the idea of comparing Joe’s height, weight, description with Zodiac seems in bad taste and to my mind completely baseless. Unless I have missed some compelling piece of info somewhere? I agree that naysaying often stops interesting exchanges though. Maybe the naysayers should just start a parallel "why it ain’t so" thread for each topic(?). That might help balance things out maybe. , Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:05 am If this case is ever solved, it pleases me to think it will bring a small bit of satisfaction and closure to the families. Absolutely, AK!!!! And that is why you and I and everyone else is here (I hope)… :heart: Azazel, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:46 am Its the Vallejo, air force, mechanic, looks like the composite, injecting himself part, knows the victim and having significant dates connected to the case that makes at least some people wonder. Aint that hard to figure out. And that someone would be automaticlly cleared based on that they are not allowed to be looked upon is silly. I think Joe would rather have people looking for the Zodiac from any angle then putting people in the "cant be allowed to be looked at category.". I really dont think dead people are concerned with people looking at their life. If Kain wasnt allowed to be looked at as a suspect then Abels murder wouldnt be solved. Since the Zodiac aint been caught doesnt that mean that all the suspects but one (perhaps none) is wrongfully "accuses" of the Zodiac crimes? Accused is when someone is saying "He is the Zodiac". The things we do around here is speculate. Ray Accused O´Hare and co for example. If you dont like us speculating, then head on to something that you can contribute to instead. Its naive to think you know everything about the victims. I did alot of things my relatives knew nothing about. They have another picture of me. And that goes for all people. To some extent or some degree. We all have our secrets. AK Wilks, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:01 am Problem is every bit of available evidence shows that Zodiac hailed a random cab and had no idea who the driver was. I can’t think of any evidence that shows this? It has been argued on boards time and time again but the theory that Z knew Stine has not been debunked, imo. Stine was on his way to a fare when he saw "Z" and picked him up. How could "Z" have known Stine was there and headed that way? All evidence shows he simply hailed a cab. He never says STINE in a letter. I have yet to see any evidence how Z could have known and got that particular cab – how on Earth would he know Stine would be at that street at that time? Azazel, Subject: Re: KPIX Eyewitness News October 22, 1969 Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:16 am Paul could have been selected by chance. By opportunity. If Z spotted Paul (and had a grudge) he could have taken the opportunity. And by not mentioning Stine in the letters, he would lead the police to think it was random. Perhaps he lived in that area. Somewhere around Washington/Cherry. Perhaps not, but is possible.
	Re: Shirt Pieces	19 Relevance	13 years ago	traveller1st	Paul Stine 10/11/69
	traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:51 am Jdean327’s interview with the kids who saw Z is a must read when studying what happened in the cab … esses#2197 Yup, Very good. I have read it before but it’s always nice to refresh. Certainly gives you more faith in the composite. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:53 am QT (Cutey!) – Dousette moved Paul Stine (he was an arriving ambulanceman, it’s been said) in order to try and render him first aid, one would imagine. Why they would then photograph the man in that unfortunate position, I couldn’t say. Presumably the crime scene tech’s didn’t know he’d been moved. Bentley – great thread that, and that post in particular. I liked: "opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe[n] he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North." …since OK, he did open the door, so makes sense he wiped that too. It also makes some sense to me that he pulled Paul Stine back into a sitting position – where he’d represent some semblance of normality, sitting up in his cab – to afford some time to escape before the crime was discovered. That would explain his confidence level being high enough to walk off slowly. Maybe he was wiping bloodstains from the dash since they might also have served to attract attention, but again, I’d bet it was the steering wheel. No matter, really. Evidently he didn’t notice that he was being observed – he wouldn’t have acted so coolly if he had known, huh? And those last few actions would have made no sense. So those reports of the kids "making eye contact with the killer" are just bs., as one might expect. (What does his buying some time like that say about where he was going to? To a nearby car, to drive away? Not if he really was a robber – a guy who held up cab drivers for twenty bucks and a ride. I suspect he lived not too far away down the hill – someplace affordable. Pure speculation.) FWIW I think he looked JUST like that composite. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:49 am Lastly – ah lastly. With me always a "lastly". Mr Horan’s very excited with the idea that the writer would need a confederate in the SF coroner’s office to get some shirt material for him etc., then posting it yadda yadda, two people and so on. He has a suspect based on this idea. I have no idea at all who the suspect might be. It’s all very complicated. I’ve a question: If you’d just shot a cab driver to death and robbed him, how far would you walk carrying a piece of his shirt? RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:28 am …I’ve a question: If you’d just shot a cab driver to death and robbed him, how far would you walk carrying a piece of his shirt? We can safely assume that Z thought his crimes through insofar as assessing the odds, and making sure that they were in his favour i.e. shooting kids in or next to a car, like shooting fish in a barrel; and penning victims in on a lakeside peninsula with no means of escape. Hence, he would no doubt have thought through or researched the response times of cops to a Presidio Heights type area cabbie killing/robbery. Perhaps a minimum of 3 to 4 minutes, given that a witness would have to call the cops, most likely via an operator. And then the dispatcher would have to alert patrols. So, 3 to 4 minutes to calmly walk to the park, and/or possibly a nearby car. Just enough. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:38 am Hi RTF – is that Rich Text Format btw, or am I just being nerdy? And welcome if you’re indeed new. Your other post doesn’t make you sound THAT new. I agree with you entirely. Anyone would want to know how long he or she likely had to stage an escape. To not behave that way would be the actions of a junkie or a drug addict, or someone too desperate for money to be thinking properly. None of those seem to completely apply here. And thanks, I perhaps need to re-phrase my question….. Doh! Would you – if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession? Or have you already answered that? RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:53 am ……Would you – if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession? Or have you already answered that? Why not? ….I’m The Zodiac. I’m spattered in blood. I’ve got a gun. I’ve got options for shootout, suicide and surrender. And I need this shirt to prove I did it. Or maybe my car is very near by, not by the park. … I seem to have thought out the rest of it … And, you know how I can fib! (BTW, I am Rufus (T Firefly), formerly of this parish, and Mike’s). Thx for the welcome in any case. …And you can blame that Zam for my return. tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:01 am Jdean327’s interview with the kids who saw Z is a must read when studying what happened in the cab … esses#2197 The (16 yr. old??) kid saw blood? I think stories get embellished, but I’m sure the majority of this one is correct. Either way it doesn’t prove Zodiac was in the front seat. Here’s the thing. There was no exit wound. So…how did blood get everywhere? I think at first STINE’S body probably fell towards the door or steering wheel. It’s not like there was a spray. So the blood would have been coming from the entrance wound and maybe nose, mouth, ears… I do think immediately after STINE was shot, he would not have been all sprawled out with blood everywhere. I think happened when Zodiac moved the body to get to the shirt. We can question all day whether Zodiac sat in the front or back, but we will never have the answer. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:18 pm Re: "never have the answer" amen to that. Not sure it much matters either. (I just know I wouldn’t have gone and got in the front, personally!) I didn’t know there was no exit wound T – I really should have gone and read up again. My two film scenarios don’t play either then hmm? Wouldn’t you know it, get lazy on something and it will bite you. Still, I suppose less blood spatter = more likely to need cloth for wiping fingerprints. Ah Rufus T, of course. Yo! I’m giving up playing detective, I’m rubbish at it. Is Paul Stine still in the seat in this picture? And is that any old passerby just a-swinging on the door, or someone known? Toschi’s pants are too short. bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:31 pm I’m sure glad you guys showed up to play with Smithy, I gotta lurk for a bit. One last bit of Horanism: IIRC he said something about the blood print, like one minute droplet of blood got past Stine’s head (no exit wound right?), flew out the open window (it is open I believe), and instead of falling to the ground or on the door it made a U-turn and landed on the outside window frame. That just may have the Kennedy bullet beat. Zamantha, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:15 pm (BTW, I am Rufus (T Firefly), formerly of this parish, and Mike’s). Thx for the welcome in any case. …And you can blame that Zam for my return. Off topic for just a quick second! But YAY Rufus (T. Firefly) you are one of us, so there! So glad you are posting again….I know we all missed you, your wisdom & that wild, fun energy! Zincerely Your Pal, Zam :star: traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:16 pm Out of curiosity, Did Horan’s theory include the operator who issued the BMA info?? RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:48 pm …….Would you – if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession? Okay Smithy. Leaving aside that you failed to crack my idenity given the actual initials , why the question? And what kind of answers did you expect? onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 pm Well JDean’s interview explains why Zodiac went back to the driver’s side of the cab. To prop the body of Paul Stine back straight up. It sounds like he struggled a little, and therefore could have inadvertently left some prints, at least palm prints. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:14 pm Poor Bentley, I’ve tired him out with this Horan tosh. Good luck matey – but take this with you. Whatever scenario he’s on about, and I can’t make head nor tail of it. Horan said "The print on the driver’s door window post was made by a hand which had grasped the post, with the ring finger pressing down on a tiny droplet of blood spattered onto the interior of the door…" Horan, Thomas (2012-07-19). The Great Zodiac Killer Hoax of 1969 (Kindle Locations 556-558). . Kindle Edition. . So there you are. What it’s about I have no idea as yet. Something about a finger print on the cab matching the "Little List" letter I think – but then one would expect that to be the case if Zodiac shot Stine and took a piece of his shirt to validate the letters with! That’s all very odd. 1WK – you think Stine was still alive? Could have been I suppose, I hadn’t thought of that. I must read the autopsy stuff if there is any. I’m strike 3 right now on basic homework. Very bad. Trav – nope, no mention of the BMA info, I just searched the thing for you. His conspiracy didn’t extend that far. Fortunately. It might yet though! RTF – Hello again and well met, it’s certainly been a while. Well, yes, the question. Excuse me if you know this, but this bloke Horan who has stirred everything up suggesting all the letters are faked. And the car door at Berryessa. It’s tough to get to grips with. He asserts that Paul Stine’s killer didn’t remove a piece of shirt that went straight across the back – that a subsequent malefactor removed another piece. (From either the coroner’s or the property office I suppose, although that’s not yet clear from his heavily redacted "report" either.) Difficult for me, that. Althhough if he produces a suspect or some wonderful evidence in the future, well OK I’ll have been wrong. Again. Meantime it struck me that if the killer wasn’t the letter writer, as alleged, and therefore didn’t need Paul’s shirt to validate future letters, (had indeed only removed it to wipe down the cab to get rid of fingerprints having no substitute to do so with him), that he might not have kept it for long. I can’t imagine, say, that he would have taken it home. I’d have thought the keys and wallet might have gone down a drain – perhaps the shirt too – or into someone’s front yard. It seemed a far likelier scenario to me that if the letter writer were at or near the crime scene and did indeed touch the cab, he might have seen and retrieved that whole piece of shirt. But still, this is an awful lot of far-reaching speculation to try and make Mr Horan’s theory more believable isn’t it. There’s an easier explanation! onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:39 pm So once again, Mr Horan’s letter Hoaxer is an accessory to murder, having been at the scene of murders messing with evidence. Much worse than a hoax. Much worse. Did Zodiac keep momentos of his crimes? In my opinion he did. My suspect kept many creepy items which I had no idea what they meant when we were married. Old keys, bits of jewelry, horn rimmed eye glasses. If only I knew what to look for… Very similar to what Miss Sandy Betts describes as being left in the back seat of her car that day. One day, maybe 16 years after we were married, my three year old toddled out holding a ladies’ stocking (not mine) singular, with a run, stopped by a dab of cheap nailpolish. Lots of weird stuff like that over the years. Didn’t know to look for a piece of striped shirt. bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:12 am Trav – nope, no mention of the BMA info, I just searched the thing for you. His conspiracy didn’t extend that far. Fortunately. It might yet though! Maybe he did, the dispatcher hoaxed! :scratch: smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:24 am Maybe he did, the dispatcher hoaxed! :scratch: When you’re smart – and of course want to appear smarter – it’s easy just to keep cranking on up the insanity level to fit where you want to get to isn’t it! I think the SFPD dispatcher’s a good target for conspiracy – and so is the tech ID at Napa who managed to foul up the job of taking the handprint from the phone at the car wash. (If that’s true….). They did it on purpose, I tell you! It’s a conspiracy! traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:36 am Lets not forget all the employees at the US Federal Reserve. Oh, wait, scrap that…that would make it a coin-spiracy. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:58 am Lets not forget all the employees at the US Federal Reserve. Oh, wait, scrap that…that would make it a coin-spiracy. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:32 am So once again, Mr Horan’s letter Hoaxer is an accessory to murder, having been at the scene of murders messing with evidence. Much worse than a hoax. Much worse. My opinion too, if true, although Mr Horan’s blog makes it appear that no charges can now be preferred. Sounds hokey – what do I know. Here in ye UK, we prosecute people who mess with the justice system most avidly. (As I’ve said often, recently). Re: "Zodiac and souvenirs" – I am raising my eyebrow, electronically, here! On any other thread I’d wonder about it, but on this thread of course I’m compelled to say no, because he wasn’t there. STOP PRESS: A bone from Mr Horan – who makes two good points. If there was a piece of shirt in the November 9th letter, why does it also say "To prove I am the Zodiac ask the Valleho cop about my electric gun sight" which is odd. He also mentions that the Belli letter didn’t arrive until December 20. Hmm. I presume (immediately) that it’s a cash-in on the TV stuff, but I’ll have to check. How very tedious this is! Mr Horan rattles on about it being a genuine requirement for a lawyer [in his report] – which I think is absolute pootle. Last, he says who is the mysterious Mr Keel? (I think you asked about him on the other thread already "onewhoknows"….) Ah, me. bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:16 am STOP PRESS: A bone from Mr Horan – who makes two good points. If there was a piece of shirt in the November 9th letter, why does it also say "To prove I am the Zodiac ask the Valleho cop about my electric gun sight" which is odd. To prove that Stine’s killer was the same killer as in Vallejo, no? Am I underthinking this one? (first cuppa) STOP PRESS: He also mentions that the Belli letter didn’t arrive until December 20. Hmm. I presume (immediately) that it’s a cash-in on the TV stuff, but I’ll have to check. How very tedious this is! Mr Horan rattles on about it being a genuine requirement for a lawyer [in his report] – which I think is absolute pootle. Anniversary of LHR… smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:58 am To prove that Stine’s killer was the same killer as in Vallejo, no? Am I underthinking this one? (first cuppa) No, yes, I dunno. One explanation is in order to stitch the crime sequence together, again, as was done before – and on 12th October too "I killed those guys in Northern California" or whatever it was. And yes, Mr Horans right, it was unecessary to say that, especially if there’s a lump of shirt in the envelope – no proof req’d. Anniversary of LHR… Yep – star’s weren’t aligned until then. Sagittarius on the cusp of Capricorn. (Sometimes I think you’re just mean.) smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:08 pm The above evidence list states PER KEEL on the last two items with the shirt included. Who’s Keel? David Allen Keel, "former lab expert with the SFPD" and one-time letters guy, mentioned on page 219 of the Lafferty book. There’s been some doubt about his abilities too, apparently. Not from me though (if he’s reading this). bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:19 pm Hmm, a lump of shirt in the Oct letter along with "I killed those kids in the north bay". OK, proves you’re the killer of Stine, no proof of north bay crimes. Nov letter, more shirt, plus a ‘secret’ only he and the VPD know. So you didn’t believe I was the same guy by my Oct., letter, try this on for size. Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov? tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:10 pm Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov? I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa. Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity. onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:48 pm I feel Zodiac wanted to engage a big time police department such as San Francisco. Paul Stine was a delibrate random act, just to mess with the San Francisco Police. Scared himself didn’t he? Went underground with any other murders. Stopped taking credit for his crimes. What would be the motive for a hoax letter writer? I can hear Zodiac’s horrid, sad, desperate personality in these letters. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:10 am Tahoe – ah yep, the problem with MO’s again, and "signature", eh? If he’d been in it for the souvenirs (as has been suggested about the attack on Paul Stine) then yes, how odd Berryessa is. How odd it is anyway. How odd that a hoaxer manages to turn up to write on a door when a guy with a hood on makes his debut. It’s really very vexing. (Hey! Which thread is this?! It’s about the shirt and Stine isn’t it! Oh well – press on regardless!) I feel Zodiac wanted to engage a big time police department such as San Francisco. Me too. I think he needed a bigger stage, and went looking for one in SF. What would be the motive for a hoax letter writer? I can hear Zodiac’s horrid, sad, desperate personality in these letters. $64,000 dollar question, that. Although the "voice" in the letter varies, to my mind. At the start of the series it was pretty much all-business. Later it was sometimes gleeful and spiteful, very much about the police force and not about the crimes, and in the Belli letter it at least tries to generate some sort of understanding and sympathy – even though that’s entirely false and mocking in my opinion. Last – its quite philosophical and musing; the "little list". Hmmm. Depending on your view of the writer, I suppose the motive range might be: He’s a mass-murderer getting an extra kick out of terrorism and press attention. He’s a sad nutcase, getting pleasure from associating himself with crimes and killing – a complete fantasist. He’s got some "sensible"underlying motive, such as assisting the Chronicle with their battle for circulation, or generating more resource and assistance for the beleagured Vallejo (and perhaps Napa and SF) police forces, albeit it in an way which is EXTRAORDINARILY self-deceptive and downright warped. At this point I think that there are elements of all three. Since the hoax letters go SO far, I think that the original motivation grew and perhaps became even more strange and grandiose, over time. But whutdoIknohuh? Back to the shirt again – I think I need a little timetable of crimes v’s letters, and also a reference to which letters referred to which crimes. onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:48 am I guess one would have to have had access to Paul Stine’s shirt, after having written the earlier letters. And this person happens to be at the scene at Lake Berryessa, at the time of the murder, to write on the victims’ car door? Only someone in Law Enforcement would be in a position to do such a thing. And Napa is not very close to San Francisco, different counties, different jurisdictions. What’s the first rule of great drama? IT MUST BE BELIEVABLE. Most likely, only the person committing these crimes, had access and opportunity on all these levels, to write these letters, and send in clues and pieces of evidence. Mr. Horan would do his arguement well to produce some handwriting samples, as I have seen some very close examples to the Zodiac’s handwriting here on this forum from a variety of suspects. It had better be a very good match or Mr. Horan will appear to be the most recent Hoaxer. As my mother used to say, "Nothing is real. At least nothing you can see." Zodiac depended on this for his continued freedom. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:52 am I guess one would have to have had access to Paul Stine’s shirt, after having written the earlier letters. And this person happens to be at the scene at Lake Berryessa, at the time of the murder, to write on the victims’ car door? Only someone in Law Enforcement would be in a position to do such a thing. Agreed. It sounds rather doo-lally doesn’t it? But I suppose we should continue to indulge the man. (Even if he doesn’t know how many short pieces make 3). Between ourselves, I’m not very excited about Mr H. producing perfect handwriting examplars, if I’m honest. If he does, great, if he doesn’t, no surprise. I’m much more interested in how the fantastic coincidence of the symbol on the attacker at Berryessa is reconciled, without the writer having been involved at least as an accessory to murder. tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:09 pm But I suppose we should continue to indulge the man. (Even if he doesn’t know how many short pieces make 3). Why? smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:14 pm Ow!!!! tracers, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 pm As an aside, here is a link to an old eBay listing for SFC article on the Stine letter. It has some pix of the article that people may want to copy and save. … 050wt_1271 I really wasn’t sure where to post this and didn’t want to start a new thread in the magazine section of the board for this one link. sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:37 pm Thank you Tracer’s, I wonder who the person was from AZ who paid $222.50 for those papers ? Very nice for a true Z collector ! The article mentioned that the killer sat in the front seat, yet so many people over the yrs thought he was in the back seat. The note looked as if it was torn along the edges, didn’t we see another Z note that had the top and bottom edge done that same way ? I think that one was thought to be teletype paper ? I am also curious to know if the police asked to have the letter’s size changed to protect against copy cats ? sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:58 pm Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov? I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa. Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity. As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something. Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:06 am Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov? I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa. Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity. As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something. One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day. QT sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:27 am Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov? I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa. Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity. As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something. One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day. QT The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940’s, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac’s blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia’s, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi’s DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won’t let me have it back. Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa’s Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana’s conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board. Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:43 am Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov? I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa. Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity. As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something. One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day. QT The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940’s, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac’s blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia’s, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi’s DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won’t let me have it back. Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa’s Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana’s conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board. Hi Sandy, that would be really great (pictures)., thanks for your kind information. QT sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:00 pm Rather than spend another minute on Horan’s theory, I find it far more interesting, that the date these pieces were put together for that picture was in 1997 ? Something else I need some feed back on, is that after the ‘one’ large piece of shirt was torn off,then used to wipe down the cab. The killer cuts the 3 smaller ones that were cut from that piece. It looks to me that those 3 were cut across the top and bottom of each piece with what is known as pinking shears ? You lady’s who have sewn will know what those are. Notice the edges are shaped vvvvvvvvv ? Not really frayed. That sort of reminded me of the edges that Zodiac had used on the peek through the pines card ? For you men who may not know what pinking shears are , they are scissors used by sewers who want to protect the edges of material from fraying, they cut in a v shape , like shown above. If I am correct ,then there should be no doubt that the pines card was the work of the Zodiiac. tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:26 pm Maybe he tore it and then used the pinking shears to cut it before mailing them? Part does appear to be torn, and part cut. The Pines card edges were used with the hole punch the sender used to punch in the hole (circle for the cross) in the card. Zamantha, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:14 pm Was there some published doubt about the Oct. ‘north bay’ claim that he had to address again in Nov? I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa. Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine…I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn’t take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity. As far as we know he didn’t take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don’t know too many people who didn’t have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can’t get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia’s roommate didn’t remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something. One might assume that these were Cecilia’s belongings…also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn’t be Z’s anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day. QT The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940’s, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac’s blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia’s, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi’s DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won’t let me have it back. Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa’s Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana’s conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board. Hi Sandy, that would be really great (pictures)., thanks for your kind information. QT Taking this thread "Off Topic" But here’s the link to the pictures, Sandy spoke of on page 5. … andy-s-poi Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:25 pm I have posted a larger copy of the Nov. 12, 1969 Chronicle article that Duckking posted on page 1 of this thread. There were three Zodiac articles in the issue of the newspaper that day. The first mentions the shirt piece contained in one of the letters, though it is not clear which letter, Nov. 8 or Nov. 9, the shirt piece was in. Talk of a Luger in the second article, Smithy! … 1969#34018 smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:16 pm I have posted a larger copy of the Nov. 12, 1969 Chronicle article that Duckking posted on page 1 of this thread. There were three Zodiac articles in the issue of the newspaper that day. The first mentions the shirt piece contained in one of the letters, though it is not clear which letter, Nov. 8 or Nov. 9, the shirt piece was in. Talk of a Luger in the second article, Smithy! D. thanks again for this – fabulous. "Over there" on that thread, I said yes, and the Lugers wrong! I should say so over here too, shouldn’t I. Should I? Whilst I haven’t seen the ballistics report from BRS yet – and none of us have – it’s now been referred to by two different authors with (I presume) some inside knowledge. Both are alledging the BRS weapon was a Browning Hi-Power. Forgive me for spamming this thread (and the other one!) with this info. I’m trying to confirm it. Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:45 am If your still counting shirt pieces I have another article for you. … -ten#34172 This article says that several of the letters contained swatches of the shirt. Will it never end? BTW this information is contrary to two different DOJ reports which both say two letters contained pieces of the bloody shirt. bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:40 pm OK, back to the shirt. I found the source of the color pics of the shirt pieces. Here’s the video, it’s towards the end. The narrator explains something about two pieces mailed in, then a third, with a picture of this chap apparently pulling out piece 3. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:55 pm Well done mate, but they SAY three pieces, and only show two. I’d swear, but I’m not allowed to. traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:14 pm Burger Me!!!!!! Took one for the UK team lol. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:33 am Good work with the burger, Trav! Damnit – two pieces. Horan’s dodged another one here. The piece that’s in the Chronicle for 18th October is on the bottom left, and it’s "C". The last piece the guy got in the video. The rectangular holes line up nicely, now it’s the right way up. There’s a whole stripe missing from the black and white version "C" – the same one as at bottom right. I guess law enforcement chopped a strip off it. DAMN! I’ve spent the last 30 minutes trying to find another recognisably different piece in the public domain, and I can’t. Oh well, live and learn. :clown: sandy betts, Subject: Third piece of shirt Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:03 am I don’t know what burger me means , but burger me too ! Make It a double. Could anyone tell me what is in his left hand that looks like a third piece of the shirt ? Look at the video again at 3:13. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:37 am Sandy you’re so right. Make mine a double too – with cheese! I think that’s piece "C" he has in his hand. That’s "B" that’s lying on the table already although sideways, annoyingly, rather than the right way up. It needs rotating anti-clockwise ninety degrees. (It’s SO sad. I’m seeing these in my sleep). If you’re wondering why "C" appears to be completely rock hard, like a piece of board, I am too. Is that what happens to blood-stained shirts? I suppose it might be dry and brittle now. * shrug * Otherwise I can only presume it’s backed with something, or they’ve conducted some other experiment with it – beyond cutting a slice off the side to make me look like an idiot, that is. (I’m taking that personally, I realise.) smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:47 am Sorry folks – all this is said already I realise, but a summary is required – and there’s room for doubt, as usual!! (Tracers asked me about this on the "Tommy Horan" thread. It’s her fault then. But since this is independent of Mr Horan’s whacky theory, just something he’s brought to light, I think it deserves this thread). Here we go again, then! The wonderful photograph of pieces "B" and "C" shows the TWO pieces returned in the letters, we’re told. Piece "A" has never been seen again. All photographs in the public domain SEEM to show those two pieces – only. Some places they’re in colour, sometimes upside-down or transposed vertically. Here. "B" and "C" in place, and another colour shot of "C", called "John’s piece", of the type which was driving me to drink. Important things to bear in mind, if you’re shirt chasing. There are two rectangular holes cut into piece "C" – now – and one rectangle cut into piece "B". I presume as the result of some sort of testing. They can help you line up what you find on the net, and to recognise each piece. Again, some places they’re photographed in colour, sometimes upside-down or transposed vertically. Sometimes they are seriously fore-shortened, making them look tiny. (It’s a wonderful life.) Secondly – and pretty darn importantly to avoid Smithy trap number two… Piece "C" seems to have had a stripe cut off. :affraid: I’m still looking for pieces because I’m still not sure I believe the "stripes been cut off" thing, Stare at the photo and maybe you’ll see why…. bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:51 am Smithy, watch this video again, fast forward past Fouke. You will see the tech looking at the envelope in his hand, which matches the two already on the table, and begin to set down whatever is in his left hand, a portion of which is visible against the backdrop of the envelop in the capture below, the last frame before they cut away. I think it’s either a third shirt piece or a cheeseburger, my money’s on the former. So why didn’t they show a shot of that piece along with the other two? Probably because they didn’t figure on a bunch of nut jobs dissecting this a decade later. tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:50 am So why didn’t they show a shot of that piece along with the other two? Probably because they didn’t figure on a bunch of nut jobs dissecting this a decade later. Hey…speak for yourself! :tongue: Seriously, I don’t think there is any shirt conspiracy here. smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:04 pm Bentley – troublesome ain’t it! Can we get more shirt pictures in, and put them in a pile? I think there’s some kind of conspiracy, preventing me eating nuts and cheeseburgers. (I may have misunderstood what you’ve said). bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:31 pm That footage is from ABC Primetime, circa 2003, or so it says. Apparently you can buy the whole episode online, though it may show no more than what we see. Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 am I’ve found another article which mentions the shirt pieces. This one says there were two shirt pieces in the Stine letter. I view the newspaper articles as a last resort for information compared to what is in the official reports ie: police reports, CA DOJ reports and the FBI files. Although, even the official reports occasionally contradict each other. tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:24 pm Lol…yes, I agree Seagull. Great find, but we know how these darn newspapers are! "Enclosed were two pieces of the shirt of taxi driver Paul Steine". , Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:39 pm Good work with the burger, Trav! Damnit – two pieces. Horan’s dodged another one here. The piece that’s in the Chronicle for 18th October is on the bottom left, and it’s "C". The last piece the guy got in the video. The rectangular holes line up nicely, now it’s the right way up. There’s a whole stripe missing from the black and white version "C" – the same one as at bottom right. I guess law enforcement chopped a strip off it. DAMN! I’ve spent the last 30 minutes trying to find another recognisably different piece in the public domain, and I can’t. Oh well, live and learn. :clown: Smithy, I see no possible way that John’s piece is piece C. For one, there do not appear to be any rectangular cuts at all in the color piece… and no matter how ya flip and rotate, those stains simply do not match up. -A smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:47 pm You think I’ve found that extra piece already thebigZ? Good – I’ll stop! I wonder what they treated the pieces with that made those blotches become so diverse btw? Even"B" is barely recognisable isn’t it? (You think that’s B? I think it is.) Seagull – thanks again. You think there really was a reporter at the Chronicle called "Baron Muller?" Seems hard to believe! , Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:01 am Smithy, I found a clear pic of the missing piece (piece A)… sent you a PM. It is most certainly NOT piece C. From this video @37:32… And it’s labeled "A"!!!Cold Case Files – The Zodiac Killer
	Re: Riverside Parade Video and Video of Ross in Binghamton?!	17 Relevance	7 years ago	ophion1031	Ross Sullivan
	That NY video is interesting. The guy has the same "fish lips" as Ross.
	Re: Riverside Parade Video and Video of Ross in Binghamton?!	17 Relevance	7 years ago	buyerninety	Ross Sullivan
	…"down the rabbit hole, I can’t quite get a great image of the book he’s carrying but I can tell that it appears the back of it is facing us"… Look at it in keyframes. Fingers appear to be placed in a hole, more suggestive of a stiff paper bag. Diagonal stripe seen just below top left of bag suggests a gift type bag. (Interesting that elsewhere, the video concentrates on exterior of Phils Gift Shop; … did=156880 ). …"and it is a smallish book that is white with a red spine." That ‘red’ is possibly an artifact of colour bleed on the film emulsion – for comparison view the keyframes around 00:21, look at the ‘red’ on the top of the white object a different man is carrying, at the same time look at the ‘red’ on the top of the white vehicle moving in the lower left bottom of the frame – see how it disappears, it is easier to then see and understand that that ‘red’ is just an artifact.
	Editing a Video Clip	16 Relevance	5 years ago	AK Wilks	Ask A Fellow Member
	In the documentary "His Name Was Arthur Leigh Allen", starting at 31:30 into the video, Officer Fouke states that upon viewing a photo of Allen, he would guess Allen weighed "100 pounds more" than the man he saw the night Stine was murdered. Can someone give me a link to a video that just shows that brief relevant part of the documentary? video is here: The part I want is from 31:30 to 32:00. Thanks to anyone who can help me.
	The 340 CIPHER KEY VIDEO AND CIPHER READY TO DECODE.	16 Relevance	7 years ago	nav	Zodiac Cipher Mailings & Discussion
	Got the video done in about an hour, I think you’ll like this. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7d1kyr And here she is, isn’t she beautiful? How many days? I reckon 3 max and it will be out.

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