Loves a good lie, that Zodiac fella. Likes to embarrass the po-lice. Loves it.

Good is right. Not just a run-of-the-mill lies that can be solidly dismissed. They hang around and pester. More like misinformation or propaganda.

Based on the formal costume Zodiac wore at the Lake Berryessa murder, we can assume he made an effort to disguise himself deliberately and in a more sophisticated way as time went on. And in what ways can someone disguise himself? Can you make yourself look older? yes, Younger? more difficult.

Can a thinner person make himself appear larger? yes A fat man looking thin? more difficult. Can you add eye glasses you normally don’t wear? How about hair?
easily changed from combed forward, to a pompadore, to cutting, to coloring, adding greasy kid stuff or vaseoline. Can you alter the appearance of your height with a box shaped head dress? well how clever he was…yes he put much deliberate thought into the costume, it was part of the fun, the fantasy, the preparation.

I agree Judith. He was having ‘fun’ where he could take it at any stage and on every level. The crimes, the letters, the disguises. He can’t even keep them separate. He couldn’t contain himself and eventually had to discuss the ‘cleverness’ of the disguise(s) element in the bus bomb letter.

It was never officially stated or acknowledged by Fouke and/or the SFPD until November 11, and the incident happened on October 11…. etc.

WC – you said "Don Fouke? How did he describe the suspect he had encountered in the days after the incident? He didn’t."
The fact that the park was searched on the night of the Stine murder might indicate that Fouke at the scene prompted that action.
And the report? Fouke contributed to the composite, so he was certainly talking about his view of the subject right after the event. Nuh?
Fouke’s denied speaking to a suspect, then, since, and now. He still does. FIne by me.
Loves a good lie, that Zodiac fella. Likes to embarrass the po-lice. Loves it.

Yes he did, I am not disputing Fouke was responsible for them heading for Julius Kahn, but that is the natural assumption to make isn’t it? Fouke seems to imply it was by saying "We turned around to get to the Presidio and our reasoning, well my reasoning on that, was because turning down Maple would lead directly through the Presidio wall and into Julius Kahn Playground which had a lot of foliage." That, he says, was his specific reason for going there. Not once does he say he radioed other units to respond to the area because he had seen a suspect heading in that direction. He does say that when Armond told him on Cherry St that the suspect wasn’t a Black Male, but was actually White, Don claims he told Armond "oh, that was the suspect" to which Armond immediately responds "Uhh, He did not mentioned to me that he had seen anybody at that point, or had stopped anybody."

"Fouke’s denied speaking to a suspect, then, since, and now. He still does. FIne by me." That’s your opinion Smithy and I respect your right to have and voice it. And as you correctly say, ‘loved a good lie, that Zodiac Fella". But one person who doesn’t love a good ol’ lie and loves this game of who saw who and said what and where, is Diana Zelms, Eric’s Widow. She has no reason to lie about anything. In fact, quite the contrary.

Officer Eric Zelms widow statement:

"Thankfully, during the week of August 15, 2005, I was able to have an interview with Zelms’ widow, Diana. The following will be a brief summary of the graciously given information.

It would seem that Fouke knew that he and Zelms had spoken to Zodiac "face to face" and he wanted to protect a rookie officer. It would be quite unthinkable that the senior officer did not know if his partner had seen the WMA as Fouke wrote in his memo and has said in some interviews. Zelms admitted to his wife in private that he cooperated with Fouke because he didn’t want to get a negative report and possibly lose his job. In light of the heavy criticism from some quarters about the failure of the SFPD to capture the Zodiac, if what had happened were to get out the effects would have been devastating."

Now Mr Smith you may choose to believe Don if you wish when it cannot be disputed that he has lied once about what he saw that night (first the suspect was last seen ‘going north on Maple’ and then years later he was walking up steps toward a house) but I myself choose to believe Diana and unless you can tell me you know of a good reason for Diana to make up lies about her deceased young husband I think i’ll continue to believe her.

The comment of "He said that they spoke to this man "face to face!" is very interesting for several reasons.

1. Zodiac stated in his letter "I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over +asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious"

2. Fouke "I remember seeing his eyes, I couldn’t tell you what colour they were, it was dark enough that his eyes were concealed." Then a few sentences later: "(Zodiac was) stumbling along, like a semi-limp may have come up in my mind because he was putting his head down when he spotted the police and then turned into an entrance way of a house." (Pic below shows the position of Fouke and White Male Suspect at time of encounter)

So Fouke see’s the mans eyes from that distance while, by his own admission, the man is looking down at the ground before turning into a house? Umm, OK!

3. Fouke was asked how fast he was driving, and how long it was from the time of first spotting him to passing him? Fouke said "Well, until I saw him… Probably about 35 to 40 MPH on a 25 MPH street. Slowed down as we passed him, I don’t know, still rolling, saw that it was a White Male… Step on the gas! 5, 10 maybe 15 seconds tops from first spotting him to passing him." And in this 5 to 15 seconds Fouke manages to recall the following General Description in his memorandum:

"White, 35 – 45. Approx. 5′ 10. 180 – 200lbs. Medium to Heavy Build. Barrel Chested. Medium Complexion. Light coloured hair possibly greying at the rear."

Then Don starts being very specific….

"White Male. Light coloured hair possibly greying at the rear. Dressed in a derby, or three quarter waist length jacket with elastic at the waist and on the cuffs and a regular flap down collar. He had a crew cut and was wearing Rust coloured pleated trousers unusual for the time. He had on engineering type boots, low cut shoe, tan in colour."
Don can tell us about some bit of elastic on a cuff, his slightly greying hair ,and what colour his shoes were from that a 10 second sighting at night at a distance of 75 yards?

Awesome graphic, WC. My first thought is that I fully believe that Zodiac was inclined to lie OR tell the truth if it would serve his agenda of embarrassing the blue pigs. Diane Zelms’ reported confirmation of Zodiac’s side of the story does make me wonder if this is one of those times that the truth was more effective.

Second thought is that I still find it intriguing that Zodiac just happened to be changing his course of direction as he walked down Jackson St. just as he saw Fouke and Zelms driving toward him. He INSISTS that he was exiting stage left just as Fouke and Zelms approached him, perhaps anticipating a confrontation.

"Print that! I disappeared into the park never to be seen again! Did I mention how important it is to print that?"

Red herring?

WC – that "Officer Eric Zelms widow statement" is hearsay – it’s not a first hand statement (which it purports to be), nope.
A statement "graciously given" eh? Baloney. Why continually choose to believe "the bits that we like", hearsay and otherwise, which fit in with the idea of Graysmith’s evil murdering superman "The Zodiac"? Gee.

Do I think Eric Zelms widow would lie about Eric’s actions? Wellll….
But that’s not her speaking. That’s some guy who loves the legend.
Do I believe widows are capable of lies, generally? Yes indeed.
Do I believe that the widow of a dead policeman who was killed by having his service revolver taken away from him and being shot with it, ignominiously, capable of giving him a bigger role in a semi-famous incident, after his death? Well actually I do. But then I am a heartless cynic. Poor me. IF she made that statement – which I doubt – then yes, I’m still quite able to believe it’s not quite 100% "truthful". Perhaps she might like it to be.

Say – the two of them are in a patrol car looking for a BMA – but both "speak to "The Zodiac" Face To Face". That doesn’t sound fishy to you? I think it’s as fishy as a guy spattered with blood out walking his dog.

Anyway, yes, I’ll stick with my opinion about Fouke NOT stopping to speak to "The Zodiac" I think, thanks, since that’s all any of this is. Opinion.
Oh! And my over-riding opinion, since you’re evidencing so much respect(!), remains that naughty Mr "Zodiac" used to enjoy telling lies; this is just another one of them. Or as Trav said "misinformation or propaganda" – which is a nice description. How else to continue to get in the newspaper? How else to expoit the Chronicle into publishing things, than to give them ammunition to bash the SF police with, hmmmm?

Oh! Now!
Is Officer Fouke such a fantastic memory expert that he can recall that fulsome a description from a ten second glimpse of a guy who he would have NOT regarded as a suspect at the time? That seems unlikely.
Has he embellished his description, and indeed changed it over the years? Yes, that’s likely.
It’s true in fact, if you view the early and that later video accounts he’s given, you will spot the differences I’m sure.
Is the bit he said about The Zodiac going up some steps toward (if not into) a house on Jackson (?) a capricious piece of nonsense? Yes it is.
Nobody’s perfect.

My overriding theory is that police generally tell the truth unless they have a good motivation to lie and serial killers (we’ll count Z among them for the sake of argument) generally lie unless they have a good motivation to tell the truth. The encounter between Fouke, Zelms and Zodiac challenges that theory. I would still peg Zodiac as more likely to lie about fundamental issues like what he looked like at the time and how he got away from the crime scene.

"Say – the two of them are in a patrol car looking for a BMA – but both "speak to "The Zodiac" Face To Face". That doesn’t sound fishy to you?"

No, I said months ago that I don’t believe the ‘incorrect suspect description by dispatcher’ story. My own opinion is that that story of a black suspect given as the description incorrectly was just something they had to come up with afterwards to exscuse/explain away why it was they didn’t apprehend the White guy on Jackson. Why do I think the story is crap? Well let’s assume then that the BLack Male description was broadcast by mistake and give them the benefit of the doubt, then we have this scenario….

Armond P: "It was at that point that I retook the suspects description and that’s when I was told it was a White guy. I couldn’t get to my radio fast enough to let everyone else know."

Then A.P walks down Cherry, turns right and descends the Jackson hill and arrives at Maple where he see’s a ‘man walking his dog’. He then turns and ascends the hill and it’s around this time, while he’s somewhere on Jackson or just turning onto Cherry, that Don and Eric pull up to Maple. Keep in mind now mind that Armond has stated he broadcast the update in description a good 5 to 10 minutes ago before he even left the scene itself. Fouke now see’s the white male on Jackson. See, even if the story of the BMA was true, that still couldn’t account for why Don did not stop the white guy because A.P claims to have broadcast the amended description several minutes before Don rolls up on the white guy.

And the way it’s worded in Diana’s interview seems to suggest that Fouke made it up when she says…

"She was told, in all confidence, that Fouke made the final decision to say they only drove by a WMA and he was not stopped because they were looking for a BMA."

"Diana Zelms statement is hearsay." Oh dear, now we are clutching at straws Mr Smith No in all seriousness I will acknowledge that that statement above is 3rd hand an therefor by the letter of the law designated as ‘Hearsay’. But wouldn’t you think that Diana herself would have heard this claim circulating about what she is supposed to have said? Surely if it were vicious lies shed be on the record to correct these lying people in their deceptive story telling about her late husband having told her something?

In as much as Fouke’s description of the man they drove by or talked to the night of the Stine murder, is an exception to the live witnesses of the Zodiac Killer, it should be discounted. From the lack of blood on the man, to the grey hair. What ties this man to the Zodiac Killer, besides he was walking on a street of San Francisco?

In as much as Fouke’s description of the man they drove by or talked to the night of the Stine murder, is an exception to the live witnesses of the Zodiac Killer, it should be discounted. From the lack of blood on the man, to the grey hair. What ties this man to the Zodiac Killer, besides he was walking on a street of San Francisco?

How is this man seen by Fouke an exception to the witnesses who survived? The grey hair/age you mean? If that guy Don spoke with was Zodiac, then Don was the only person to ever see Z up close, unmasked and under street lights. The witnesses and dispatcher said he ‘sounded young’ because, obviously, they never saw his face. Mike Mageau said he was a young guy but claims to have only seen the shooters silhouette in the dark and from a side on profile view (not from the front staring face to face) after he was shot several times. Don is the only man to see Zodiac if in fact it were him on the street that night, up close and personal under street lighting conditions.

The lack of blood on his trousers could be down to something as simple as ‘Zodiac wore two pairs of trousers that night’. That’s what I would do if I were going to do what he did and wanted to hide my bloodied clothes on the street. After all, He knew he was going to murder a cab driver and have to walk at least some distance on the street so the pair underneath the blood stained trousers would remain clean and not soaked in blood when the top pair would be and he simply switched them in one of the many numerous dark alcoves, alleyways or even front garden of a house. Before anyone dismisses that as ‘too elaborate’ I would ask them to remember who we are dealing with here. This is the same man who claims to use 2 coats of airplane cement on his finger tips as it "quite un-noticeable and very effective." The rest of us would probably settle for the slightly more mundane and boring, yet just as effective, pair of gloves!

Fascinating discussion everyone but can I just ask you all to be mindful not to drift too far off the topic of this thread. It’s becoming a discussion about the events on the night of the Stine murder and there’s already other threads for that.

Thank you.

GREYING HAIR

Thank you Judith lol.

Yes, back to the question of Zodiac’s hair! Rite, ummmmm…. So, did Zodiac have a dandruff problem? If so, can we check each Mall’s CCTV footage looking for anyone White Male buying excessive amounts of ‘Head & Shoulders – Anti Dandruff’ shampoo? "There he is! That one there! The one at the check-out with thirty seven bottles of anti-dandruff!"

Anyway, back to the serious points regarding his hair. If Don and Eric did see Z and if they spoke to him as Eric’s Widow claims Eric described it "Face to Face" then Zodiac must have confidence that he wont be recognised if he’s seen by the same two Officers from Jackson St that night.

That bit never made a whole lot of sense to me either. If i’m a notorious and wanted serial killer who, should I make the slightest error in judgement, will result in a rendezvous with the Gas Chamber in San Quentin, I wouldn’t want to be all eager to let everyones, including the police who saw me themselves, that ‘I was the man they stopped to speak with on the street that night.’ All your doing is confirming that you are the offender that as spotted and/or possibly spoken with that night and now two SFPD Officers know what you look like unless you have one hell of a disguise! A wig would be noticeable under the street lights more than likely if he’d been seen at fairly close range and may then end up having the wig have the reverse intended effect and you draw suspicion to yourself. You know, if Fouke & Zelms were slowly accelerating up Jackson St hill, slowed down and were greeted by this man coming toward their car….

But but but, where’s my reply? Before we move on (back to?) the hair? Deleted? It was just before your post, Trav. Has it gone?

I seem to recall telling naughty WC that I’m not "clutching at straws" saying that the Diana statement is hearsay. It’s hearsay.
Not only is it hearsay, but it’s from an unnamed party, and includes a reference (in confidence – ha ha!) from ANOTHER third party. Doh!
As for "wouldn’t you think that Diana herself would have heard this claim circulating about what she is supposed to have said?" Uh no. I suspect she doesn’t sign on to Zodiac web sites looking for things with which she disagrees. You think it makes it true ‘cos she’s not signed on here yet? Double Doh!

Back to the hair.
No, he didn’t wear a skin wig (that’s silly).
How’s this hair thing supposed to have gone? Has anyone listed the descriptions (again – as was done on the old site) yet?
At LHR – hair, unknown.

At BRS – Mike (jeez) described the attackers hair as "brown" (it says here) http://www.zodiackiller.com/FerrinMageau.html
At BRS – MIke (jeez) described the attackers hair as "short curly hair, light brown almost blond" (it says here) http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Descriptions.htm

At Berryessa, Bryan said that under the hood, where he could see through the eye-holes, (jeez), "It looked kinda greasy" (it says here)
http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Descriptions.htm
It also says "brown" there – but only, perhaps, because Graysmith says "dark brown", on page 67. Police reports, anyone? Will that help? Maybe not.
The "other guy" scoping the girls out at the lake – dark brown or black hair.

Presidio – well, it’s on this thread – pick a card. The kids description? Foukes? Widows peak? Brownish? Red-ish, with some grey?

So.
"Short curly hair, light brown almost blond, kinda greasy, brown, dark brown (or black), widows peak, crew cut, red-ish with some gray."
How. Very. Odd.

But but but, where’s my reply? Before we move on (back to?) the hair? Deleted? It was just before your post, Trav. Has it gone?

Bottom of page 5 Smithy? is that the one?