That is an extremely interesting observation. He prepares the car door prior to the attack with the dates, then inserts the time upon his departure. It may increase the risk factor, but nevertheless a novel suggestion.

Of course “by knife” being the last row pretty far down on the door is going to look different.
He had to have stopped pretty low to write it if he stood. Depending on how tall he was determined how low he had to get down.
And… if he had a bad leg of some sort like people say, it probably was very difficult to get that low by standing.
I know my hubby has a bad back/leg and he would not have been able to write that low on a car door without
touching it for grip. Or else he would have to sit on the ground and do it.
Just my opinion.

Edit. If that was the case Silkweaver, this would mean the killer knew that Bryan & Cecilia were in that car. He didn’t have a loud speaker going around asking who owned the Karman Ghia before the attack. Or else the killer knew his victims or followed them.

That is an extremely interesting observation. He prepares the car door prior to the attack with the dates, then inserts the time upon his departure. It may increase the risk factor, but nevertheless a novel suggestion.

How could he have known that this car belonged to that particular couple?

That is an extremely interesting observation. He prepares the car door prior to the attack with the dates, then inserts the time upon his departure. It may increase the risk factor, but nevertheless a novel suggestion.

He increased his risk factor gathering swatches at PH too. So he didnt seem to care about risk. Why is that?

Soze

Edit. If that was the case Silkweaver, this would mean the killer knew that Bryan & Cecilia were in that car. He didn’t have a loud speaker going around asking who owned the Karman Ghia before the attack. Or else the killer knew his victims or followed them.

I am of the opinion that the LB attack was a z attack. I am also of the opinion that he knew of his victims but likely didnt know his victims personally. I entertain, on occasion, that he followed his victims prior to attack.

However, even with the above being said, the Z or whoever he was, didnt have to know the ghia was Hartnells. He was obviously prepared as he had rope, knife, gun and pen. He was trolling for a victim and found two.

Soze

That is an extremely interesting observation. He prepares the car door prior to the attack with the dates, then inserts the time upon his departure. It may increase the risk factor, but nevertheless a novel suggestion.

He increased his risk factor gathering swatches at PH too. So he didnt seem to care about risk. Why is that?

Soze

I can only imagine his assessment of risk is different to ours. What we see as risky, he doesn’t. Like an absence of empathy in the majority of serial killers. Attempting to work out some sort of consensus on brain function is nigh on impossible. There is no such thing as normal.

Edit. If that was the case Silkweaver, this would mean the killer knew that Bryan & Cecilia were in that car. He didn’t have a loud speaker going around asking who owned the Karman Ghia before the attack. Or else the killer knew his victims or followed them.

I am of the opinion that the LB attack was a z attack. I am also of the opinion that he knew of his victims but likely didnt know his victims personally. I entertain, on occasion, that he followed his victims prior to attack.

However, even with the above being said, the Z or whoever he was, didnt have to know the ghia was Hartnells. He was obviously prepared as he had rope, knife, gun and pen. He was trolling for a victim and found two.

Soze

If we throw out the Berryessa crime as a Zodiac crime, we have to chuck out the Halloween card, then by extension the 340 cipher, Bus Bomb letter, Paul Stine murder, October 13th 1969 letter and Melvin Belli letter, to name but a few.

Yes Soze, the idea that after just two similar modes of attack on December 20th & July 4th, the Zodiac Killer had to be constrained by this formula forever, otherwise the tired modus operandi trope would be argued to negate Lake Berryessa as a Zodiac crime, is a baseless argument. The same argument of Berryessa not looking like a Zodiac crime, would have been applied to Presidio Heights in absence of a letter. Absence of a letter after Berryessa, is not evidence of a copycat – and neither is the use of a knife.

Many reasons will be put forward as to why this wasn’t the Zodiac Killer, such as the weapon of choice (the knife), the executioner’s costume, the writing on the car door not looking like Zodiac’s handwriting, and the fact the perpetrator of the crime didn’t identify himself as Zodiac. Then he wasn’t really a very good copycat was he. This person supposedly went out of their way to impersonate the Zodiac Killer, but failed to be a copycat. And if he wasn’t a very good copycat, it is highly likely he wasn’t trying to be one – because he was the Zodiac Killer.

It was suggested above that two writing stints at the Karmann Ghia car door would have redoubled the risk to Zodiac on 27th September 1969. I agree, but I think that risk may have been something that he actively sought. We know, for instance, that his timing at Lake Herman Road on 20th December 1968 was almost unfathomably tight. At Blue Rock Springs Park the next year other 4th July revellers were around and about on the evening Zodiac shot Ferrin and Mageau; indeed, Richard Hoffman had checked the area not long before the shooting. On 11th October 1969, spooked though he may later have been by his own brazenness, Zodiac took a walk of at least a block’s length having murdered Paul Stine. If it’s true that Zodiac was inspired by comic books, and his crimes were manifestations of a fantasy world constructed from elements taken from what he was reading, I can see him ‘gaming’ the real world by daring it to catch out his fantasy world. Every time his fantasy survived contact with the real world, and he got away with his terrible crimes, the power of the fantasy grew. The riskier the contact, the greater the power it had to affirm the fantasy. And if we know anything about this epistolary killer it’s that he craved affirmation.

Certainly, with every successful crime (despite them being far from perfect) grew a confidence fuelled by the power he derived from them. He very likely, and incorrectly, developed a sense of invincibility, but may have had an endgame of October 11th 1969 with respect to murder. He could now ride the wave of publicity his crimes had afforded him. However, by late 1970 to early 1971, the lack of verifiable murders attributed to him, meant his threats became more and more diluted, until he became more of an afterthought. He was the wolf, who became "the man who cried wolf".

Insecurity jostling with recklessness gives us a way to understand events at Berryessa on 27th September 1969. Watching, but not attacking, the sunbathing women, Zodiac felt more insecure than reckless (though there was recklessness enough that he allowed himself to be seen by them as he watched). Did he write on the Karmann Ghia car door before attacking Shepard and Hartnell? We don’t know; but if he did, leaving space to add details of time and weapon after the attack, he may have been deliberately committing himself. Psyching himself up to recklessness, before doubling down on it once he’d committed his crime by spending a second period of time at Hartnell’s car updating his note. In the Paul Stine section of this message board I have suggested — speculatively — that Zodiac may have used a brief stop at the intersection of Washington and Maple to check that his pre-parked getaway vehicle remained in place ready for use. Is this also another moment at which we see the killer psyching himself up to his grisly business — as at Blue Rock Springs Park with the departure and return which he made in his vehicle ahead of the attack there?

Eyewitnesses (likely from the residences at Spruce) saw Zodiac running into the park. Therefore he bypassed Jackson and Maple, pouring huge doubt on any getaway vehicle at Washington & Maple. The vehicle that parked alongside Mageau & Ferrin about 5 to 10 minutes prior to the attack was not necessarily the killer. Driving away and then returning would actually serve no purpose. The attack could have been initiated then.

Thank you. Yes, I ought to have written ‘the departure and return which he may have made in his vehicle’ at Blue Rock Springs Park. I can also see that a possible entry into the Julius Kahn Playground at the end of Spruce Street makes problematic my suggestion of a getaway vehicle visible to Zodiac from the Washington and Maple intersection. Much to think about — many thanks!

Yes Soze, the idea that after just two similar modes of attack on December 20th & July 4th, the Zodiac Killer had to be constrained by this formula forever, otherwise the tired modus operandi trope would be argued to negate Lake Berryessa as a Zodiac crime, is a baseless argument. The same argument of Berryessa not looking like a Zodiac crime, would have been applied to Presidio Heights in absence of a letter. Absence of a letter after Berryessa, is not evidence of a copycat – and neither is the use of a knife.

Many reasons will be put forward as to why this wasn’t the Zodiac Killer, such as the weapon of choice (the knife), the executioner’s costume, the writing on the car door not looking like Zodiac’s handwriting, and the fact the perpetrator of the crime didn’t identify himself as Zodiac. Then he wasn’t really a very good copycat was he. This person supposedly went out of their way to impersonate the Zodiac Killer, but failed to be a copycat. And if he wasn’t a very good copycat, it is highly likely he wasn’t trying to be one – because he was the Zodiac Killer.

Richard, I enjoy your thoughtful posts. I have a couple questions. First, why does it need to be assumed that a "copycat" would strive to imitate Zodiac in every detail possible? Couldn’t it be a guy copying the Zodiac symbol, phone call, attacking a couple, but using his own imagination to morph the persona into his own idea of the super villain he imagines? Saying there are so many differences between LB and the shootings, that it can’t be a copycat… and therefore must be the same guy, doesn’t make logical sense to me.

There are a lot more reasons why I think LB is a different killer than the shootings, like the description of the voice on the phone call, the chatty nature of the LB stabber, and the many modus operandi differences, NONE of which carried over to the next Z crime – Paul Stine. Because Paul’s shirt was ripped, his killer apparently didn’t even have a knife of any kind with him. Anyway, my point isn’t to re-hash all that, but to ask you about this quote:

If we throw out the Berryessa crime as a Zodiac crime, we have to chuck out the Halloween card, then by extension the 340 cipher, Bus Bomb letter, Paul Stine murder, October 13th 1969 letter and Melvin Belli letter, to name but a few.

I agree, the Halloween card ties directly to LB, so that’s out. It’s way too artsy compared to the early Z letters anyway. But why the 340, Bus Bomb, Stine, and the October 13 letter? It seems to me, Stine reaffirms Shooter Z’s modus operandi rather completely. The victim isn’t a couple, but it is a perfunctory head shot, no costume, no writing on the cab, no way to identify it as a Z crime until after the escape was cleanly made and the next letter arrived. Also, the overkill (no pun intended) in sending in the shirt piece. Previously, describing the ammo, position of the body, and so on was proof enough. And no mention of LB in the Stine letter.