…I am convinced that his main targets all along where women (I am also convinced that his misspelling of "woman" as "woeman" was a pun").
I never quite understand this line of thinking.
He shot the hell out of Mike Mageau and stabbed Hartnell numerous times. There was every intent of killing them since both times a "double murder" was reported. Both of those guys were extremely lucky. And you have Stine. Cheri Jo, Kathleen Johns, and Donna Lass, remain in question.
If his issues were with women, I would expect an entirely different scenario–not only with his killings, but in his letter writing as well.
Well, like I said, if he did kill CJB, and I believe he did, he made sure to point out a problem with women in the confession letter. I think his main goal was to scare the population, men and women, and probably thought it was easier to throw a scare into women with that letter.
And as I said, I sometimes think killing was secondary at least in these known crimes. Stine shows he didn’t really care who he killed, man or woman. In the other attacks he went after the men first, if some of the women had been quick on their feet, they might have got away, especially Betty Jansen. She did the smart thing, try to run away, that’s all you can do in her situation. She gave herself a chance though it didn’t work out.
As some people have already pointed out long ago, if that was his motivation, jealousy of other’s love life, he would have hated the men just as much as the women. It could just as easily stem from a hatred of men, and police, who he felt didn’t protect someone important to him, like his mother.
@CuriousCat:
-Can’t seem to find anything about the date of creation for this calendar, but I still wonder what are the chances all "official" Z attacks come out as a Deli. Well…
I don’t think all of them did? I thought one was not on a Dali day?
-Yeah, he definitely had beef with the cops and to me he definitely had a criminal record.
Not so sure about that. I think it’s possible he wanted to be a policeman but was rejected, or possibly had been one and was fired. This was his way of showing them he was better than they were.
-All in all, I take it he was a rather clumsy killer, way less self-assured during his attacks than in his letter (as you more or less noted), would seize opportunities on the fly most of the time. Not sure he was such an organized killer.
I don’t think he was clumsy or unorganized, just the opposite. I think he planned them well, scouted the areas and knew what time was best to strike. If he had been bad at it, he would have been caught.
If the Zodiac was just trying to kill people than he was prone to failure, but I agree that he scouted his attack sites and the crimes at Lake Berryessa and Pacific Heights had to involve a lot of planning even if things didn’t work out as he projected.
The Dali day connection is really neat but the referenced 13 moon calendar with the Dali symbol was created in 1992.
Was Zodiac a liar? I’m not sure there is actually a confirmed example of this. Though I believe he was creating a character intended to scare and amuse readers and keep investigators guessing I think he was pretty truthful in the letters concerning his crimes. I don’t think he was witnessed making the Vallejo phone call and his car probably wasn’t brown, and he probably didn’t build a roadside bomb or put his name in a cipher, but I don’t think we know enough to conclude that he lied about Bates, Johns, or even Radetich… though he probably did. Alright, reading my own paragraph here I guess he did lie quite a bit!
Whether Zodiac had prior convictions is an interesting question. On one hand it seems likely that he killed or caused mischief before, on the other if he had priors locally then he must have had a lot of confidence in his airplane cement. Bizarre as it seems there are suggestions that he was gloveless at BRS (described by MM as having short-sleeves), LB (BH noted his shaking hands), and in San Francisco (print in blood).
What is the best evidence that the Pines letter is referring to Donna Lass? Are there implications beyond 1) the six month anniversary it was sent on combined with 2) an interpretation that Sierra Club is code for the Sahara Hotel in South Lake Tahoe where she likely disappeared? I know that she lived in San Francisco and worked at the Letterman Hospital which is pretty hard to dismiss as a coincidence. Is there anything more definitive that it was Donna Lass referenced?
I don’t think we can determine that Zodiac was wholly intent on killing his victims. He may have tried to but he didn’t ensure that they expired before leaving the scene at least in the first 3 canonical attacks. David F and Paul S are the only victims who received head shots and David still had vitals when police arrived. Zodiac reported the crimes as murders and kept a kill count that did not include wounded victims, but if he was truly concerned about their survival he surely could have completed the job without interference, especially at Lake Berryessa.
I think inflicting suffering through violence to achieve wide-spread terror was his primary motivation. My interpretation may be misguided but it seems an important distinction because if he didn’t care whether the victims lived to speak with the police then in my view he must have been from out of town. Grinell and Morford have put forth very compelling theories about the Zodiac living within walking distance of the Vallejo payphone (so I’m probably wrong!), but I think doing a geographical profile of a murderer who writes to the media on the same terms as an unpublished killer is problematic and that it’s equally possible he resided outside the perimeter defined by his crimes. Thanks for reading!
I get your point, the door was precise and the letters to the press were general in describing the dates. …what is the significance here?
It shows a difference in the mindset of the writers. One is specific, detailed. The other is sloppy, indifferent. In my humble opinion… different people.
There are a lot of discussions scattered throughout this website, discussing the many differences between LB and the other confirmed Zodiac attacks. No need to summarize here – the list is long. I just wanted to add this to it, that’s all.
Bottom line, shooter/writer Z did not particularly care and was very general, while costumed car door writer Z was very specific.
It’s almost like a student of a master, who studies, and thus knows the dates and places the great works were painted, even better than the master himself.
Or he just killed two people in broad daylight and was truncating his scorecard rather than blowing his escape by spending any more time than he needed to in vandalizing a car door (which is also a crime, something that anyone happening along by could easily see him committing).
Well, two things here. First, I don’t think adding the time to the LB date is considered "truncating." I would call that "expanding." Really all the guy needed to do to claim LB as a Z crime would’ve been to draw the symbol.
Second, if he was trying to hurry, as you suggest, that would be yet one more difference between this guy and the fellow who shot Darlene and Mike, who took his time going back to his car to reload, then walked back to fire more shots, and the guy who shot Paul, who took time to wipe down the cab, tried to prop Paul into a sitting position, then walked away.
It is certainly a valid point Marshall that the Lake Berryessa attacker was in no hurry before, after or during the crime. If he was the man leering at sunbathers hours earlier, he seemingly trolled the area, parked out of sight, considered other victims, and once he selected his victims he carried on an extensive nonsense conversation, and then of course took the time and risk of writing on the door. Unless he had parked really far away or had to go home and change he was in no hurry to get to the payphone afterwards either.
It seems to me the perpetuator(s) of the Zodiac attributed murders was never in a hurry while killing or composing his lengthy correspondences. At Lake Herman Road if the Zodiac was in the car that Owen recalled parked next to the Rambler he evidently waited some time with his engine off before his attack. At Blue Rock Springs it seems he took the time to eyeball his targets, drive off to ensure the coast was clear, and after his return he made two trips to the car before casually driving away. At Lake Berryessa he takes all the time in the world executing his plan. At Pacific Heights he took the most risk of all spending time with his activities in the front of the cab and then having to walk at least a couple of blocks to safety.
David F and Paul S are the only victims who received head shots
Mageau was also shot in the head.
If he was the man leering at sunbathers hours earlier, he seemingly trolled the area, parked out of sight, considered other victims.
I have some doubt that was Zodiac. For one thing, the car he was driving had too wide a tire track to be the one at the actual attack site. I think he was just some guy scoping out the girls, when he got close enough to them he figured they were too young for him. If he was Zodiac, probably figured there were too many to control, he only brought enough rope for two after all.
However, there was also a couple there. Their names are in the police report, but no mention of them otherwise other than the girls saw them at the beach. I would think the police talked to them. It might be information they are holding back. If that guy was indeed Zodiac, they might have been his intended victims.
Unless he had parked really far away or had to go home and change he was in no hurry to get to the payphone afterwards either.
That is a very long car ride back to that pay phone, about 20 minutes IIRC.
David F and Paul S are the only victims who received head shots
Mageau was also shot in the head.
You’re absolutely right – thanks for the correction Curious Cat. My point may be weak, but if Zodiac didn’t think Mageau was dead and left the scene anyway then that suggests he wasn’t local to Vallejo. Similarly, at Lake Berryessa it seems like the attacker should have known that he had left his victims alive to speak to police.
I too have doubts regarding the sunbathers report. If it was him he was a patient man. The attacker may have considered the doctor and his son as potential targets but was deterred by the rifle that the son was carrying. However it is equally possible that they viewed him after the attack. Richard Grinell has written a lot about the sightings and the geography out there and time-mapped routes to the pay phones. I get pretty much everything from the research in his articles at zodiacciphers.com. According to Richard’s mad calculations there is reason to be skeptical that the tire tracks by Hartnell’s car were the Zodiacs but it is certainly possible they were his.
The handwriting on the door is a dead ringer to all of the confirmed Z letters, to me. However, we do not know that he never wrote about the LB attack! Letter could’ve gotten lost in the mail, a postal worker could’ve actually taken it (noticed the hand writing, I’ve heard that really happened to a Z letter) and kept as a souvenir. There is always the possibility that the police have a LB letter and haven’t allowed anyone to view it. However, there isn’t a letter for us to see and know was sent. I think the ominous way in which he toyed with the victims and did write on door and later called the police, was sufficient for him. It was just 2 weeks later that he attacked again. Perhaps lots of planning and prep work was put into the PH attack and he didn’t waste time with a letter. Especially if you believe he wasn’t from SF, he probably spent a good deal of time scouting locations and planning the getaway.
David F and Paul S are the only victims who received head shots
Mageau was also shot in the head.
You’re absolutely right – thanks for the correction Curious Cat. My point may be weak, but if Zodiac didn’t think Mageau was dead and left the scene anyway then that suggests he wasn’t local to Vallejo.
What makes me think he wasn’t a Vallejo local was his phone call where he calls Blue Rock Springs "the public park". That sounds to me like he didn’t know the name of it like a local would, else he would have called it Blue Rock Springs. .
David F and Paul S are the only victims who received head shots
Mageau was also shot in the head.
You’re absolutely right – thanks for the correction Curious Cat. My point may be weak, but if Zodiac didn’t think Mageau was dead and left the scene anyway then that suggests he wasn’t local to Vallejo.
What makes me think he wasn’t a Vallejo local was his phone call where he calls Blue Rock Springs "the public park". That sounds to me like he didn’t know the name of it like a local would, else he would have called it Blue Rock Springs. .
I have heard locals casually refer To blue rock springs as "the park", but you are right, "the public park" does sound odd.
In response to the post you were responding to:
With Mike, Zodiac began shooting, and initially walked away, but Mike was screaming in the back seat which prompted zodiac to return to the car and begin firing again. …so it seems he did all he could to ensure Mike was dead before leaving the scene.
As far as location:
I have always speculated Vallejo as a good place to start looking for zodiac’s location.
I have also suspected that zodiac May have been located in Fremont or Pleasanton, or Richmond or Dublin simply because criminals tend to avoid committing crimes near their homes, but they generally won’t stray too far.
however, the issue with the bay area is that even before the BART was built many people from these outlying cities were familiar with the other cities of the bay area, and frequently traveled between them, I mean every city between Napa and vallejo down south To San Jose and Santa Cruz is an option…
the mention of "peace sign", "black power", and "Melvin eats blubber" pins made me suspect Berkeley, because of the college.
Honestly who knows.
I still suspect Vallejo, zodiac had to at least have been spending a good deal of time in vallejo, if not living there.
I still suspect Vallejo, zodiac had to at least have been spending a good deal of time in vallejo, if not living there.
The Stine letter has Z taking credit for the murders in the North Bay Area. The writing on the door at LB mentions Vallejo specifically.
IF the guy who shot the 5 victims was from Vallejo as you suspect, wouldn’t that be even more reason for him to distance himself from the LB stabbing?
Suppose you’re "real" Zodiac and you are, in fact, living in Vallejo. You’ve killed at LHR and BRS, sent letters and codes, and so on. All is going fine. Until, suddenly, some imposter creates some bizarre costume, kills some people using your alias, which in a sense is framing you for it. But what really disturbs you is that he has written the name of your home town right on that car door.
If I’m Z, I need to do a few things right away. First, re-establish myself with an unmistakeable attack somewhere other than my home town, and clarify in a letter that I am the killer in the North Bay Area (Not Napa, not Vallejo.) Back to my same MO – use a gun, no time for much conversation with the victim, confirm with letters and evidence that proves it was me beyond doubt. I would distance myself from LB quickly because if LE thinks that was me up there in the hood and bib, they are seeing my location in big bold letters right in front of them.
Of course, I couldn’t outright deny LB because bright people in LE would wonder why, and they would assume there was something about that crime that was dangerous to me.
I have heard locals casually refer To blue rock springs as "the park", but you are right, "the public park" does sound odd.
And in the letter he calls it the golf course. I think the golf course in just across the street. So it seems while familiar with the area, he didn’t know it innately as a local would.
I have always speculated Vallejo as a good place to start looking for zodiac’s location.
I have also suspected that zodiac May have been located in Fremont or Pleasanton, or Richmond or Dublin simply because criminals tend to avoid committing crimes near their homes, but they generally won’t stray too far.
however, the issue with the bay area is that even before the BART was built many people from these outlying cities were familiar with the other cities of the bay area, and frequently traveled between them, I mean every city between Napa and vallejo down south To San Jose and Santa Cruz is an option…
the mention of "peace sign", "black power", and "Melvin eats blubber" pins made me suspect Berkeley, because of the college.
Honestly who knows.
I still suspect Vallejo, zodiac had to at least have been spending a good deal of time in vallejo, if not living there.
The "Melvin eats blubber" one is particularly interesting to me. That one seems like something he would have to see, I’m not sure how popular they were outside the Berkley area. The peace sign and black power thing would be in all the news.
I only discount Vallejo because he didn’t seem to know the name of BRS, but it’s certainly a possibility I wouldn’t discount. He certainly was familiar with that area. I mean, BRS or Lake Berryesa you could find on a map or learn from word of mouth, but that parking spot on LHR would take a local to know. It’s possible he drove by it often as that road takes you to or from Benicia or across the straight, might have been a work route.
