That video also shows however that the writing was done with felt tip pen. How does a copy-cat know to use the same type of pen?

The options for writing on a car door are somewhat limited.

Always looked to me like he used one of those big, broad tipped markers to write on the door. What I always thought was interesting was how he filled in the two dots in 6:30 to look like the symbols he used in the ciphers.

If the writing on the door was blue that would be a noteworthy clue, but the Chronicle on Oct 2 69 was correct when they wrote that the lettering on the door was in black ink. I haven’t gone through the reports in some time but if you watch an hour and eleven minutes in to the This is the Zodiac Speaking documentary where Hartnell goes to visit the door you can see that it is black. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys Never the less I am pretty darn sure it was Zodiac.

Looks like it was black, my memory was blue. That video also shows however that the writing was done with felt tip pen. How does a copy-cat know to use the same type of pen?

These bogus copy cat claims continue to persist, and the people who make these claims never back much up outside of vague "it was in the paper, he could match it from that."

I would challenge anyone claiming the handwriting was copied from the few letters published up to that point to find what he used. They won’t because they can’t. The early letters didn’t provide the traits found in the later letters and the car door.

Just like
-felt tip pen
-The pleated pants (that the LB copy cat copied from the future PS Z)
-The use of letters and punctuation not found until later letters.
-The almost identical script in his call after the crime.

And even when there is a attempt to say a copy-cat was so good he nailed so many of these intricacies perfectly, they fail to remember the LB didn’t copy the established MO AT ALL!

You made a much ado about nothing when it came to the blue felt-tip pen on the car door. What other type of pen would write that big and clearly on a car door? Those old-school, black, stinky, thick felt-tips, certainly not a ball-point pen. Pleated pants? If not in jeans…chances were pretty good.

"I would challenge anyone claiming the handwriting was copied from the few letters published up to that point to find what he used. They won’t because they can’t. The early letters didn’t provide the traits found in the later letters and the car door."

Both in the Vallejo paper prior to LB:

There is nothing wrong discussing the possible validity of it. Sorry if this upsets anyone.

The copy cat also correctly guessed to use the same monotone voice from the BRS call.

That letter printed is a great example of how Z wasn’t even prominently using the candy cane F.
Uses of "F" in the letter are uppercase like "Fry." The lower once are not the full cane.

If you guys want to continue to promote an idiotic theory and spread misinformation, there are terrible internet forums that want you as a member!

Well, according to Nancy Slover, his voice sounded mature…like Richard Gaikowski, and according to Slaight and Harntell, his voice sounded like a young student…so there is that.

Your next statement sort of proves my point. The writing isn’t always the same…and the car door has some distinctive differences. With that, and the fact it is a car door, how can it be proof?

It’s not spreading misinformation. It’s merely pointing out observations.

You challenged anyone to provide information an impostor would have used and said, we "can’t"…..well, we can.

Sure Tahoe
The copy cat looked at the f on the left and made the one on the right.

The idea that someone fleeing a murder scene would and even could spend the time to copy the Zodiac writing that accurately (compare the cab door to any established Z letters, it is dead on) is completely absurd.

So keep trying!

You continue to prove my point.

Here is a neutral observation: Imagine the Zodiac Killer had not mailed any correspondence after the Paul Stine murder, including the shirt piece- nobody would have believed this was a Zodiac crime based on any of the three crimes that preceded it. But obviously, everybody accepts this is a Zodiac crime now, indicating that a Zodiac crime bearing very little hallmarks to his previous crimes can now be accepted as a Zodiac crime. Couldn’t the same model be applied to the Berryessa crime, which some believe has little resemblance to his initial two attacks. If the phone call wasn’t made, Bryan Hartnell hadn’t survived and documented the costume and the car door writing didn’t exist, but the killer had written a lengthy communication instead, in similar handwriting to the July 31st letters, would that be more compelling evidence than the other three combined.
If we use the handwriting on the car door and argue it doesn’t look like Zodiac’s, could we argue that any subsequent correspondence after October 11th 1969 that didn’t contain a shirt piece, could just as easily be dismissed on handwriting alone. In terms of the car door writing- attempting a comparison to material he probably wrote in the comfort of his own home, to writing on a cambered door, likely squatting in front of it, having just stabbed a couple 16 times, is not a rational and fair comparison to be made.
Equally, comparing this handwriting on the car door to Zodiac letters is not very productive. Compare the three E’s, and four 6’s on the car door to one another. None of them match to each other. So comparing individual letters from the car door to Zodiac letters, is fraught with danger. Using comparisons to one another, we could argue there were four different writer’s, who contributed to the four 6’s on the car door, because none are consistent with one another.

Tahoe, if you want some people to take your theory seriously, make a YouTube video with spooky music.

Well, I’m certainly no expert, but the way Vallejo is spelled on the door and in one of the Chronical letters seems very much the same to me, concentrating on the a, j and e.

That lower case f is very distinctive. Thought it a bit odd it closely matches this f from the Riverside desktop poem. I though it odd because I’ve never really thought Z wrote the desktop poem or was involved in the CJB murder.

I think that is what makes handwriting so subjective. I think it was Tom (sorry if I’m mistaken Tom) who once mentioned how we are (generally) taught the same way how to write in school. –Then, of course, you will have some that add their own flair. This is proven by the many suspects whose handwriting has been compared to Zodiac.

I believe our minds jump at Zodiac handwriting, primarily because we see that symbol. The rest…similarities. Zodiac or not, the handwriting varies–with similarities, which in MY opinion isn’t proof positive, but it certainly doesn’t seal the deal as an impostor either.

I’m happy to be wrong and hopefully soon, we’ll know and y’all can say "I told you so".

That said, I am now taking requests for my youtube soundtrack. j/k

If the phone call wasn’t made, Bryan Hartnell hadn’t survived and documented the costume and the car door writing didn’t exist, but the killer had written a lengthy communication instead, in similar handwriting to the July 31st letters, would that be more compelling evidence than the other three combined.

I would say, yes.

The voice on the phone call was very different than the voice described on the other (BRS) phone call. To me, the voice points away from LB being a Z crime.

Bryan’s description of the guy, as well as the ridiculous outfit, are distinct from the witnesses at BRS (Mike Mageau himself) and the kids at PH. Again, to me, these are reasons I think this wasn’t Z at LB.

The car door writing looks a bit similar to some of the Z letters, but please let’s keep in mind, that car door only has 18 letters on it! That’s the equivalent of one short sentence. Could handwriting experts confirm a Z letter if it was that short? There are also 17 numbers but as you point out, the numbers on the car are rather different between themselves. So, frankly are the 3 letter "e" examples. Oddly, discounting the double "l" in Vallejo, that was the only letter duplicated. So to say it looks like Z’s letter "e", my reply would be, first choose which of the 3 does, and I will then point out that the other 2 don’t.

The writing on the door looks like maybe Z. Maybe Manalli. Maybe TK, or Ross, or some of the halfway decent unconfirmed letters, some of which are probably hoaxes. Those 18 letters on that car door are the best thing tying Z to LB, and they are very, very weak.

Handwriting is essentially not evidence.

The strongest pieces tying Z to LB are the Z symbol and the words "by knife" on the car door. The Halloween card was sent exactly 13 months after LB. But there are still a number of possibilities, all of which are fairly equally likely.

1) Perhaps all 4 attacks and all the letters are the work of Z.
2) Perhaps only some of the attacks and some of the letters are by Z.
3) Perhaps all or some of the attacks but none of the letters are by Z.
4) Or perhaps even none of the attacks and all of the letters are by "Z".

It is morelikely that the Stine murder and the Stine letters are the work of the same individual, but even that is absolutely not certain.

I think we simply don’t have the evidence to discriminate between these possibilities right now. We know there were a bunch of attacks, and we know there were a bunch of phone calls and letters related to them. That’s pretty much all we know.

Handwriting is essentially not evidence.

The strongest pieces tying Z to LB are the Z symbol and the words "by knife" on the car door. The Halloween card was sent exactly 13 months after LB. But there are still a number of possibilities, all of which are fairly equally likely.

1) Perhaps all 4 attacks and all the letters are the work of Z.
2) Perhaps only some of the attacks and some of the letters are by Z.
3) Perhaps all or some of the attacks but none of the letters are by Z.
4) Or perhaps even none of the attacks and all of the letters are by "Z".

It is morelikely that the Stine murder and the Stine letters are the work of the same individual, but even that is absolutely not certain.

I think we simply don’t have the evidence to discriminate between these possibilities right now. We know there were a bunch of attacks, and we know there were a bunch of phone calls and letters related to them. That’s pretty much all we know.

Agree, Mist. There are are not enough absolutes to definitively state who did what.

In addition to your list we could add to the canonical crimes:
1. LHR – no following letter, no immediate phone call, direct claim in later letter
2. BRS – following letter, immediate phone call
3. LB – no following letter, immediate phone call, immediate writing on car door, no direct claim in later letter (unless claimed as part of "north bay area" killings)
4. PH – following letter, no immediate phone call, physical evidence included with letter

Enough inconsistency to allow for debate, for sure. And not consistent enough that we can say definitively that commission or omission of communication or physical evidence points to the same or multiple person involvement.

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance."
Confucius

I guess for me, it’s not so much a letter, specifically about Berryessa, but it’s his vagueness about it. Why? He got satisfaction boasting about his crimes. He provided further "proof". He wanted to shout from the rooftops what he had done and bask in the glory of his crimes. He offered proof via Stine’s shirt, yet continued to write about his S.F. experience. Why not LB? Heck, we even get "detail" about Kathleen Johns!

If one wants to believe "north bay" meant his Lake Berryessa attack…why do all we get is "I’m also the man who did in the people in the north bay". Period. That’s it.

Writing on the card door says he is Zodiac. Letters about other crimes say he is Zodiac. So why, with his most horrifying murder yet, do we not get the gory details of his attack? Some think he wrote about Cheri’s breasts under his hands and how she violently shook, but with LB….[I’m the man who did it]…almost in passing.

I agree there is nothing consistent with this case, but Zodiac wasn’t evolving, with Stine, he was reverting.

*
RTF: In regard to Confucius….we’re all brilliant.