When was the "by knife" section on the car door first released to the public.

I haven’t been able to determine when "by knife" was made public but newspaper articles about Zodiac throughout 1970 that I have read do not share the detail. It’s quite possible Graysmith was the first to discuss this. One article from 1970 stated regarding the Halloween Card said that police had a definite way of determining that it was authentic but of course did not reveal what that was. On the MK Zodiac site http://mk-zodiac.com/Communication12-16-69Report.html they point out that the first book containing Zodiac information "The California Crime Book" by Robert Colby was published in September of 1971 and did not contain the withheld information. I have not found anything that indicates that the information had been revealed before the October 1970 Halloween card. It is a great question!

The reason I ask, is not to prove the author of the Halloween card is Zodiac or not. But primarily for Tahoe- that imagine the author of the Halloween card was a copycat, then if the "by knife" wasn’t made public by October 27th 1970, it would mean this copycat was likely the Berryessa attacker and had interjected himself into the Zodiac story one year later. The other possibility is that Zodiac was a policeman or investigator with inside knowledge, or a hoaxer with inside knowledge passing himself off as Zodiac.

I honestly cannot stand the term "hoaxer". It’s not a practical joke! –Not directed at you Richard, it’s just a term that has been thrown out there, that I’m not fond of.

I don’t know the answers. I just point out my observations. Maybe LB is the same guy who wrote the Halloween card. Maybe he was the son of a cop who talked. Maybe I’m wrong and it is Zodiac.

LB just intrigues me as being totally different by a person with a completely different mindset. Zodiac was some guy who came in and quickly shot some kids and left. Now we have him morphing into some psychotic person eerily creating a hood for his next murder, behaving completely out of his normal mindset–the one we know of at least (sure, it can happen-not being sarcastic here), then just several days later goes back to popping an easy target off at night. A cabbie no less.

Maybe there were two people involved. An impostor or…they knew each other. Brothers? Who knows. I know I don’t. You can look at letters Zodiac wrote and see completely different handwriting…in the same letter. So, was it Zodiac switching hands, or people switching off?

LB simply peaks my interest for being quite different and I just like to consider the "whys".

[I’m the man who did it]…almost in passing.

If the above does NOT refer to LB … and therefore Z did NOT mention LB in a letter then I have a question….

If LB was NOT Z … would he have at least pointed THAT out in a letter?? I have no answer … just thinking out loud. I wonder if Z would have called that LB fake Z attack out in a letter if it wasn’t, in fact, the real Z.

I don’t think so. It would be to his benefit, actually. It brings more terror and more for law enforcement to look at which would actually take away from his crimes. If someone else is eventually caught, well, he never actually took credit for it. Which could be why that statement was so vague.

Great point Tahoe27! I never thought of it that way!

Cecilia Shepard had ties to Loma Linda, next to Riverside. IMO Z had known Cecilia..there’s almost no chance that Z had accidentially killed two people from a 5 mile radius (except you think Z hadn’t killed CJB..although he confessed to his ‘Riverside activities’). He DID need to keep this crime specifically anonymous. That might also be the reason why he had written the dates of multiple ‘crimes on the car door, to make the LB attack look less important. However, this crime might have been the most important for Z.

I am convinced that Z had known Cecilia. Cecilia had attended Pacific Union College, the college of Bryan Hartnell. She came from Loma Linda, next to Riverside. Mageau, Ferrin and Jensen all went to Hogan High. Faraday also went to Hogan High for the Christmas concert. Donna Lass was at Letterman, the area where Z had fled from Paul Stine’s crime scene..all those crimes match very well together (although still the link between SF and Vallejo is an open question).

With Z knowing Cecilia (which also might have been the reason for his masquerade…he might have expected her to flee immediately when seeing him in the SF area), Z had to be specifically careful when referring to this crime.

LB – no following letter, immediate phone call, immediate writing on car door, no direct claim in later letter (unless claimed as part of "north bay area" killings)

QT

With Z knowing Cecilia (which also might have been the reason for his masquerade…he might have expected her to flee immediately when seeing him in the SF area), Z had to be specifically careful when referring to this crime.

She got a good long look at him before he put his hood on, pretty close too. She would have most likely said something if she knew him.

Bryan Hartnell interview, in color:
http://www.historyvshollywood.com/video … view-1969/

Bryan Hartnell interview in text, Sept. 28, 1969
http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview1.html

’cause we used to be good friends’
Why the prophylactics then? Were they Z’s?

‘there was this one place I used to go out…we used to all the time, you know? And I couldn’t find it.’
If Bryan wasn’t a victim, I wouldn’t believe he didn’t find a place where he ‘used to go all the time’..

‘And I heard these rustling leaves..you have your specs on, why don’t you see what the deal is over there?’
A real gentleman…

CS: ‘Oh it’s some man".."well he just stepped behind the tree’
BH: ‘What’s the idea of that? To take a leak? Well, keep looking and tell me what happens’
CS: ‘Oh my god, he’s got a gun!’
BH: ‘And so he came out..’

Police report October 4, 1969
‘Hartnell stated that the assailant was wearing a black ceremonial type hood.’

‘The female victime (CS) advised White that she could not see the responsible’s face as a hood was covering all of his head.’ (p. 7)
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport7.html

@CuriousCat
Imo it’s not correct that CS had seen the assailant before he had put his hood on. ‘Oh it’s some man..he stepped behind the tree’ not necessarily means that Z hadn’t already put his hood on. Bryan Hartnell also stated the masked person to be a man (most likely due to his stature, later also due to his clipping glasses etc.). As far as I can see, CS had never seen her assailant’s face or – what you mentioned – had a ‘good look’ at him or ‘pretty close, too’.

Also, the last person who talked to her (officer?) had mentioned that he did not understand everything that CS had actually said.

Or did I miss something here? Be careful..if you know things that haven’t been published, you might have been at the crime scene…

QT

It is fairly evident by now that the "by knife" writing on the car door was not released prior to October 27th 1970. Therefore, putting aside police/investigators being responsible for the Halloween card, the only logical derivative, is that the Halloween card was created by the killer of Cecelia Shepard. That means the same copycat is responsible for both, or the Zodiac Killer is responsible for both. This would suggest that one person is inextricably linked to both.

Therefore, putting aside police/investigators being responsible for the Halloween card…

Or a journalist. But yes, generally, as I said above, "by knife" is the strongest link between Z and LB.

Had Cecilia Shepard known the assailant, she would have recognized his voice, maybe? The man talked quite a lot to her and BH, from what I can understand.

Had Cecilia Shepard known the assailant, she would have recognized his voice, maybe? The man talked quite a lot to her and BH, from what I can understand.

Maybe she would have known him by sight only, and maybe he knew that.

It is fairly evident by now that the "by knife" writing on the car door was not released prior to October 27th 1970. Therefore, putting aside police/investigators being responsible for the Halloween card, the only logical derivative, is that the Halloween card was created by the killer of Cecelia Shepard. That means the same copycat is responsible for both, or the Zodiac Killer is responsible for both. This would suggest that one person is inextricably linked to both.

It too, could just be a coincidence as it was known they were attacked "by knife", but that is a stretch…a possibility, but a stretch.

I have to wonder if any other communiques (future or otherwise) used the term "by rope", "by gun", or "by fire" in relation to any murders. Why stop with "by knife"?

Had Cecilia Shepard known the assailant, she would have recognized his voice, maybe? The man talked quite a lot to her and BH, from what I can understand.

Maybe she would have known him by sight only, and maybe he knew that.

Very good point…we know that Darlene Ferrin had closed her windows at night, correct? Some peeping Tom issues? If Z had gone for the windows (Darlene Ferrin, possibly Betty Lou Jensen and Cecilia Shepard, too), then Cecilia would have known his face but not his voice. At the time she saw him, he had a gun anyway..

If Z was ‘stalking’ his girls, he might have lived in the area, too. Same could have happened with CJB.

QT

It is fairly evident by now that the "by knife" writing on the car door was not released prior to October 27th 1970. Therefore, putting aside police/investigators being responsible for the Halloween card, the only logical derivative, is that the Halloween card was created by the killer of Cecelia Shepard. That means the same copycat is responsible for both, or the Zodiac Killer is responsible for both. This would suggest that one person is inextricably linked to both.

It too, could just be a coincidence as it was known they were attacked "by knife", but that is a stretch…a possibility, but a stretch.

I have to wonder if any other communiques (future or otherwise) used the term "by rope", "by gun", or "by fire" in relation to any murders. Why stop with "by knife"?

I have already looked extensively and found nothing. Your finding of the Tim Holt comic and the wording By Fire, By Gun, By Rope and By Knife was excellent. We assume the creator of the Halloween card just stumbled across the comic prior to the mailing of the Halloween card. But what if he had found the comic prior to Lake Berryessa- it could have been the inspiration for the writing "by knife" on the car door, rather than the other way round.

@CuriousCat
Imo it’s not correct that CS had seen the assailant before he had put his hood on. ‘Oh it’s some man..he stepped behind the tree’ not necessarily means that Z hadn’t already put his hood on. Bryan Hartnell also stated the masked person to be a man (most likely due to his stature, later also due to his clipping glasses etc.). As far as I can see, CS had never seen her assailant’s face or – what you mentioned – had a ‘good look’ at him or ‘pretty close, too’.

Well, my post is written more factually or with certainty than I intended, it was my opinion.

However, in the "This is the Zodiac Speaking" documentary the detective who interviewed her at the scene said she told him she had a clear look at his face. He was asked why he didn’t put that in his report and he said he didn’t think it was important at the time. He also said he took notes on all she told him so it’s probably in there. It might not be in the report because they decided to hold it back from the public and became a moot point when Cecelia was not able to offer more after that. I’m not sure if she was ever capable of speaking to the officers again after the initial interview at the scene.

She also first saw the guy about 200 to 300 yards away and watched him the whole time he walked down. The tree he walked behind wasn’t far from where Cecilia was. I’m pretty sure she saw enough she would have mentioned to Bryan he looks like someone she knows.

I do think it’s possible Zodiac knew her, but not that she knew him.

Or did I miss something here? Be careful..if you know things that haven’t been published, you might have been at the crime scene…

QT

I was 7 years old when it happened so they can come question me any time they want.

At the time she saw him, he had a gun anyway..

She saw him long before that.

CuriousCat..you wrote:

‘She saw him long before that.’
‘She also first saw the guy about 200 to 300 yards away and watched him the whole time he walked down. The tree he walked behind wasn’t far from where Cecilia was.’

Do you have any reliable source for that? My information is completely different (police report):

According to White, the male victim said that a male subject approached them, wearing a hood, dressed in dark clothing.

and, more importantly:

‘The female victim advised White that she could not see the responsible’s face as a hood was covering all of his head.’
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport7.html

in detail she said:

Mrs. White stated that the girl advised him [Ronald Fong or Mr. White, unclear] "He was a man with a hood…His face was covered…He was wearing black pants…It hurts, it hurts"

Those were moreless the last words of Cecilia Shepard.

The only thing I remember regarding ‘walking down’ etc. was – from some source, forgot which one – Bryan who had thought the assailant was far away but who in fact was already close to the tree nearby. I am still quite convinced that Cecilia had never seen Z’s face nor had she seen him putting a mask on or whatsoever, at least is there no hint into such direction..

QT