Paul_Averly…in another thread you mentioned you thought the 3 girls saw Zodiac and you were going to create a thread showing this.

Why do you think they were the same person?

The mysterious guy (who was probably just a weirdo pervert "watcher") from Lake Berryessa may have been there on the same day by coincidence, and he was described as 6 foot tall not 6’2". I can’t imagine a person’s height can be so misjudged that he will go from being 6’2" in real life to being mistaken for a short guy.

You wrote: viewtopic.php?f=106&t=3138&p=53888#p53888

Your points have major flaws.

The mysterious guy (who was probably just a weirdo pervert "watcher")
"*Dismiss any and all possibility that this person could very well be Zodiac".

and he was described as 6 foot tall not 6’2".
"There were multiple descriptions, some that say over 6′. So you are also incorrect in this point."

I can’t imagine a person’s height can be so misjudged…
"Odds are this was the same person, so yes, witness descriptions have a normal thing called inconsistencies."

*"If I ever get around to it, I’m going to start a new thread that lists out very clearly why the evidence suggests the person seen at the lake was Zodiac."

I have my (strong) doubts the person who attacked Bryan and Cecelia was the Zodiac.

So he was the worlds greatest copy-cat?

Lets see, he :
-Correctly copied Zodiac’s handwriting, including special traits that had not been established in the few letters mailed up to that point.
-Correctly imitated Zodiac’s monotone voice.
-Correctly copied Zodiac’s monotone voice and script in his call to police.
-Correctly guessed that Zodiac would be seen wearing pleated pants and engineering boots at the later PH crime scene.
-Knew to use the "candy cane F" on the car door, even though that trait had not been clearly established.
-Knew that Z would later send a letter to Paul Avery, containing "By Knife" and wrote it on the car door.

And even though he correctly copied all that, he didn’t copy the standard Z MO of gunning down people in a parked car and made up his own MO.
(strong) doubts?

The voices did not match. Nancy Slover thought the voice was similar to Gaikowski’s,

And because Zodiac in S.F. wore BROWN, pleated pants..(no mention of engineering shoes) we have a match?

So the PH Zodiac copied the outdated pleated pants from LB Zodiac? Probably just another coincidence they BOTH wore pleated pants.
(Different colors clearly point to a different suspect)

*Fouke mentioned the "engineering type boots" in an interview years later, probably just another coincidence.

I think someone wanted to commit murder and make it look like Zodiac did it.

It may probably be time for me to step away from the case for a while, if not permanently, because it’s been overrun once again with a level of magical thinking that I’ve not seen since Maury Terry’s heyday: all this talk of copycats and the prevalence Horan’s asinine "Zodiac didn’t exist!" circus barking, last year’s nihilistic Ted Cruz meme, and the continued flood of "daddy did it" books crowding the true crime shelf at Barnes & Noble have led us hopelessly, hopelessly astray.

I love this board but y’all are fishing in the wrong pool with this multiple Z thing and by doubting that Berryessa was the work of someone else based on M.O. alone. M..O. changes but signature doesn’t and the signature here was EXACTLY THE SAME as what we saw in Vallejo. By casting doubt upon the identity of the murderer as well as maintaining that the eyewitness descriptions were of someone else, we’re blowing the best lead we have. It’s so frustrating.

The Zodiac was a real guy, he existed, he hurt people, and he may well be still out there somewhere collecting social security. I’m just of the opinion that what’s simple about this case (i.e., the crime scenes) is where the truth will be found and that by needlessly complicating things, we’re feeding into exactly the sense of grandeur this creep coveted for himself.

I’m with you PJ.

Feel free to go with the first part, Paul.

Thanks for rolling eye replies though and lack of reply to my question. That is really informative.

I listed several reasons as to why Zodiac was the LB suspect above. And it all follows the evidence.

You are making the very flawed claim that LB was a hoax/copy cat.
I continue to point out information that wasn’t available to copy at the time of the crime.

Your logic continues as follows:
If info was published = clearly copied.
If info was not published = coincidence.

I’ll let Michael Butterfield speak to your "hoax theory" and you might want to listen to what he has to say about it.

@ 41:11
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/hous … 9_41-07_00

I don’t care what Michael Butterfield has to say.

I don’t think LB was a hoax. It was very much, real. But, thanks for calling it my "hoax theory". ..Oh wait.

I don’t think anything was a coincidence, and yes, nut-jobs copied Zodiac. Hundreds in fact. One even wrote his "name" in blood on a wall after a murder.

But my question wasn’t about why Zodiac was the LB suspect. You mentioned you were going to start a "new thread that lists out very clearly why the evidence suggests the person seen at the lake was Zodiac." —So, what is your reasoning that the guy the girls saw, and the guy who attacked Bryan and Cecelia were the same man?

Here is the thing and don’t agree with Tahoe! But makes some sense and only time Zodiac truly proved himself after sending pieces of Stine’s shirt. Why did he feel he needed to show full proof ? Insecure because LB wasn’t him ? Again still think that was Zodiac but always keep a open mind! Anyone feels they need a break understandably but please come back. None of of us knows the answers! I like this board that a open mind can be cherished!

Re the engineer boots. Might they have been Wing Walkers, known in the Navy as boondockers? That would tie in with the Bates murder. Incidentally, what type of shoe prints were found at other Zodiac murder sites?

Dag–Wing Walkers prints were only found at the LB site.

As far as Fouke, in his (very) descriptive memo, all he mentions is "may have been wearing low cut shoes". I’m not too keen on the (40 year later) revelations.

Where do the engineer boots come in?

The DOJ report states that the heel print at the CJB crime scene was like the heels that were on "low quarter military type shoes" that were seen on black dress shoes. These heels were prison made.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DOJ33.html

Wing walkers had a different heel.

Fouke’s memo says that the person he saw "may have been wearing low cut shoes".

http://www.zodiackiller.com/FoukeReport.html

Wing walkers were higher than low cut shoes, not what I would consider a full fledged boot but came up over the ankle bone.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&aut … jzEEDnWLow

I did a Google image search for engineer boots and the results were all full fledged boots that had a strap and buckle around the ankle area.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&aut … F1EovM8mg8

Where do the engineer boots come in?

‘This is the Zodiac Speaking’ https://youtu.be/HI0jnsbZwys?t=4690

1:18:50 approx. "He had on engineering type boots"

Thanks Trav. I don’t watch too many Youtubes due to my metered internet service. Regardless of what the thing says, the reports don’t say anything about engineer boots which if you look at the images are quite different that what was described at the time in official reports!

Thanks Trav. I don’t watch too many Youtubes due to my metered internet service. Regardless of what the thing says, the reports don’t say anything about engineer boots which if you look at the images are quite different that what was described at the time in official reports!

Absolutely, I agree. I was just pin pointing exactly where the phrase originated as I knew it wasn’t from the reports.

I wasn’t accusing you of being a believer Trav! I appreciate you telling me where the engineer boots came from.

Is the YouTube an off shoot of Kelleher’s book of the same name? Kelleher denounced his own book a few years ago, and rightly so IMO.

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/6 … VADD-mWyM8

"This is the Zodiac Speaking" (Zodiac-Fincher Documentary) is quite the interesting video to watch. I think it clearly shows how some of these people’s minds have been warped over years of Zodiac books and stories.

What one didn’t think was relevant at the time, becomes detailed information years later, or…one recalls something of significance, never before brought to light–before being filmed for a major motion picture…or TV show.

Collins is the prime example. Do you know a statewide "All Points Bulletin" went out after the Lake Berryessa attacks? Even then, Collins didn’t offer the "information" he says he gathered from Cecelia in their little chat (in that video). I guess a detailed description of the guy "wasn’t important" for an APB. Cecelia didn’t give such a description to Mrs. White or Ranger White, who were with her (apparently) until the ambulance arrived. http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport8.html Collins himself says (in his detailed report) he arrived around 7:45, got the victims into the ambulance, and then began his investigation. Not once, in his report, did he mention having a conversation with Cecelia, much less the detailed one he describes in that interview. This is the same man who said it was Cecelia who provided info for the LB composite. Simply, not true….as we know, it was the 3 girls.