For me the question should be how did he know this location, he obviously wasn’t overly familiar with the streets

How do you know he wasn’t?

Maximum impact (I.e. one of the wealthiest parts of SF) with minimum risk (I.e. on the absolute outskirts of SF with the quickest escape route across the bay ??

Yet he nearly gets caught.

Yes he does, didn’t say it was good planning, just pre-planned. Not that it matters but, Did he get caught though, no, so his plan actually worked.

Maximum impact (I.e. one of the wealthiest parts of SF) with minimum risk (I.e. on the absolute outskirts of SF with the quickest escape route across the bay ??

Yet he nearly gets caught.

Yes he does, didn’t say it was good planning, just pre-planned. Not that it matters but, Did he get caught though, no, so his plan actually worked.

That’s not what I was getting at…..

Please elaborate your thoughts then ?

The Zodiac shoots Paul Stine in the head. It’s over and done with. Leaving immediately and, heading in the direction of wherever he felt he needed to be, afforded no chance of the Zodiac getting caught based on Richard’s estimate of time. Yes. Initially he had minimal risk but, he ultimately had maximum risk and because of, the choice he made to stick around. Why did he make that choice to stick around? That’s where I was going with the statement I made.

“Zodiac didn’t do things the way we think he should have “ can you elaborate on this Tom ?

Sure. I see people regularly approach the Zodiac case from the perspective that he got away with it because he must have committed the perfect crimes intentionally, "perfect crimes" being leaving no evidence or at least attempting to leave no evidence. Then they make excuses for why he left witnesses etc. Yes he was smart, but to me it’s clear that Zodiac was a suicide bomber who luckily happened to survive each mission. The man gave the police what at the time could have convicted him (handwriting), yet I see theories that he disguised his voice or wore a fat suit. Zodiac could have easily made sure all of his victims died. He could have made sure there were no witnesses. He could have made sure to not provide handwriting. He could have retrieved shell casings. On and on and on. Zodiac was brazen, his Berryessa attack is the perfect illustration, his victims could have been found before he even got back to his car, the roads blocked long before the 40-minute drive out of the area. That’s not the behavior of a guy who is worried about his face being seen or his voice being heard.

he obviously wasn’t overly familiar with the streets themselves as he references Maple in his letter

The original destination was Washington and Maple, which was an elementary school crosswalk. Still is. Presidio Hill Elementary. I believe he wanted to kill Stine in that intersection to add emphasis to the subsequent Stine letter where he threatened school children. Which is why he still made reference to Washington and Maple in the Stine letter.

“Zodiac didn’t do things the way we think he should have “ can you elaborate on this Tom ?

Sure. I see people regularly approach the Zodiac case from the perspective that he got away with it because he must have committed the perfect crimes intentionally, "perfect crimes" being leaving no evidence or at least attempting to leave no evidence. Then they make excuses for why he left witnesses etc. Yes he was smart, but to me it’s clear that Zodiac was a suicide bomber who luckily happened to survive each mission. The man gave the police what at the time could have convicted him (handwriting), yet I see theories that he disguised his voice or wore a fat suit. Zodiac could have easily made sure all of his victims died. He could have made sure there were no witnesses. He could have made sure to not provide handwriting. He could have retrieved shell casings. On and on and on. Zodiac was brazen, his Berryessa attack is the perfect illustration, his victims could have been found before he even got back to his car, the roads blocked long before the 40-minute drive out of the area. That’s not the behavior of a guy who is worried about his face being seen or his voice being heard.

Thanks for the reply Tom, I agree he was an extremely fortunate individual, but this seems to be a common theme among Serial killers. It’s seems that Zodiac was different as he appeared to know when to cut his loses (obviously an assumption). His arrogance and confidence is on a different level than the common person, this again I agree. This is why my opinion (limited as it is) is that the Belli letter was a piece of satire.

The fact that “Zodiac could have easily made sure all of his victims died.” Is an excellent point but when you consider that his only two completely successful attacks were his first and last (Assumptions again) speaks volumes. Should we perhaps consider that his first attack goes as planned, second attack he is more confident but makes a mistake by letting MM live, third attack changes MO as previous attack failed so uses Knife, again this fails so he goes back to the method he used on his very first victim (in the context of being the Zodiac) ?

“ the roads blocked long before the 40-minute drive out of the area‘“ Again this speaks volumes in itself, obviously this would not be a factor if he returned / stayed within the area.

“ That’s not the behavior of a guy who is worried about his face being seen or his voice being heard.”. To an certain extent I humbly disagree with you on this one. The voice obviously was not an issue as it was only heard by a handful of people, but he did seem to have concern regarding his appearance. This can clearly be seen in his efforts to distance himself for the composite sketch by claiming that he used a “descise”.

he obviously wasn’t overly familiar with the streets themselves as he references Maple in his letter

The original destination was Washington and Maple, which was an elementary school crosswalk. Still is. Presidio Hill Elementary. I believe he wanted to kill Stine in that intersection to add emphasis to the subsequent Stine letter where he threatened school children. Which is why he still made reference to Washington and Maple in the Stine letter.

Fair enough but we have to entertain all possibilities on this one as don’t have a definitive answer unfortunately. Perhaps though, exact location aside, this was due to convenience of the area in relation to an “escape route” which motivated Zodiac. This provides an extremely interesting question as to why the West side of SF, opposed to much closer to Vallejo East side.

Something that possibly does give weight to you belief if the much neglected fact that coincidentally both of his first 2 attacks had infant children living in the females household’s, like I say coincidentally, but it’s does make one wonder if this angle has been investigated?

The Zodiac shoots Paul Stine in the head. It’s over and done with. Leaving immediately and, heading in the direction of wherever he felt he needed to be, afforded no chance of the Zodiac getting caught based on Richard’s estimate of time. Yes. Initially he had minimal risk but, he ultimately had maximum risk and because of, the choice he made to stick around. Why did he make that choice to stick around? That’s where I was going with the statement I made.

There was an element of uncertainty in all of his attacks, which was probably part of the thrill for him. He made a long walk to the scene then back to his car, stopping long enough to write on the door at LB, so he tarried when he could have been gone there too. Sticking around there and the Stine scene didn’t hurt him since here we are all this time later and really without a clue who he actually was.

In my opinion, Zodiac was a brazen bastard and also a well seasoned killer by the time of his Zodiac murders.

“ the roads blocked long before the 40-minute drive out of the area‘“
Again this speaks volumes in itself, obviously this would not be a factor if he returned / stayed within the area.

He definitely drove out of the area, all the way to downtown Napa to make his phone call.

“ the roads blocked long before the 40-minute drive out of the area‘“
Again this speaks volumes in itself, obviously this would not be a factor if he returned / stayed within the area.

He definitely drove out of the area, all the way to downtown Napa to make his phone call.

Apologies initially I understood the above, I interpreted it as in relation to the 40 minutes between the BRS attack and the Phone call (with hindsight it should haven apparent given the thread). In regards to LB The 128 is only 15 minutes away and Napa itself 50 minutes. Obviously the time it would take to retreat to his car, undress, and then leave the writing on BH’s car have to accounted for. Apologies I am not being deliberately obtuse but 40 minutes seems possibly like an erroneous assumption. As I live in a completely different country I fully appreciate that you should visit the scenes to get a “feel” for surrounding area, but unfortunately this just isn’t possible for myself. Hence the reason I am asking, when Napa is 50 minutes, 40 minute drive out of area seems generous.

Like I said I am not questioning your judgment as you have a far bigger wealth of knowledge on this case compared to most, so it interesting when you converse.

No worries Cragle. Here’s an old video that might help with perspective: https://youtu.be/716PGgWusKs

The road is narrow, winding, slow, and the opposite of flat. In the video we go pretty quickly, but the driver had taken that route hundreds of times.

he obviously wasn’t overly familiar with the streets themselves as he references Maple in his letter

The original destination was Washington and Maple, which was an elementary school crosswalk. Still is. Presidio Hill Elementary. I believe he wanted to kill Stine in that intersection to add emphasis to the subsequent Stine letter where he threatened school children. Which is why he still made reference to Washington and Maple in the Stine letter.

He kills Stine, or shall I say intends to kill Stine, at a school crosswalk at the intersection of Washington & Maple. But, for whatever reason he has, the Zodiac moves forward one block to kill Stine. He then decides to write a letter, emphasizing the intersection, and for what reason? To threaten school children? Why the need to kill anyone? He has written plenty of letters where no body has ever turned up. The obvious answer, in this situation, would be to obtain the swatches. But still he didn’t even need that given the number of letters written afterwards that contained no swatches at all (this assuming we know of all the letters). Why the crosswalk at Washington and Maple? What’s so important about that location or the school for that matter? Or are we to basically assume that there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to anything he did?

I quoted Tom but that question is really for anyone.

These are two suggestions (and merely suggestions; I’m quite prepared to be wrong):

1. Perhaps Zodiac wasn’t familiar with the area. Maybe he confused the two streets. It was dark and the streets look pretty much the same in that neighborhood.

2. Perhaps the October 13th letter was written PRIOR to the crime. There is nothing in that letter that he couldn’t have planned ahead of time (picking a taxi driver, taking his shirt, escaping into the park, etc.)