traveller1st, Subject: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:43 pm

This is a repost of stuff I was recently working on over at ZKF. AK has asked that I put it up for discussion. I hope those of you that haven’t seen it before will find it as interesting as I did.

There’s quite a bit to it but I will try and cut it down without compromising the content.

The main thing here is the similarities between the desk poem and the citizen letter as these are the strongest. The follow on comparisons are just that, some are close some not so but they are there for reference and hopefully objectivity.

On the diagram below the important bits are pasted onto the image of the desk. The words with the grey background are all from the citizen letter. They are near the words that they match and I mean match not just look like. The form of the words that end in ‘ing’ all have the same mid-end lift then little ‘dive-bomb’ as I call it. The words starting ‘th’ have the same rise from the base of the ‘t’ to the bottom of the ascender on the ‘h’.

The stuff around the sides are more sort of incidental comparisons that I was doing along the way with other documents. I would need to look at these in more detail but I’ve included them anyway as much to show variations in letter forms within his own confirmed writings than anything else.

The important thing here is the citizen letter and the desk. I’m not an expert, I’m not even an armchair handwriting analyst but I don’t think you would have to be to see these comparisons. Basically I had to stop finding matches, I could have nearly reconstructed that poem using words and letters from the citizen letter. I’m pretty damn sure they were done by the same person. The construction and flow of certain letter combinations in order are too close to be coincidence I think.

The next image will hopefully help visually explain what I’m seeing here. The red lines under both the word on the desk and the word from the citizen letter are exact duplicates of each other so you can see how close they are.

The fact that there are so many of them from just two sources and occur with the same letters and words I find too compelling to be a coincidence. I could be wrong but this is what I see.

I’ve started putting together comparisons of the other rest of it against known zodiac letters. The f’s and everything else will be included although I find whole word form comparisons more usable in this case as there are some distortions given time and the surface being written on. There are some or at least one other single letter comparison that I find quite unique and it’s not the S’s or the F’s or the lower case r’s lol. It’s the lowercase u’s.

I’m also focusing on spacing in some cases as you will see as well as the already shown baseline anomalies because it is on wood and all that stroke analysis stuff well … I don’t know how to do that or what to look for lol.

I was going to put up an image to show this but I think I’ll just explain it first and possibly why I’m not sure it warrants an image. Take a look at the ‘K’ on the end of the word Sick. Now go take a look at the word "Kill" on the SLA card. I probably will post an image now I’ve mentioned it because it’s practically identical, certainly in construction but even in the angle its written at. I don’t really know what this implies if anything because it is just one letter. Interesting nonetheless.

Ok some more comparisons this time with accepted Zodiac sources. This shows a characteristic of the lowercase u’s and the double l’s. The lowercase u’s in Zodiac’s writing alternate between being relatively straight to what I call ‘tumbling’ ie they appear to be tumbling forward.

The desktop poem also has these so I’ve created a baseline and overhead guide on the desktop poem’s u’s and copied and pasted to the tumbling u’s in the other examples and they pretty much match. I have also included on the y’s in ‘anyway as these are basically long tailed u’s in their construction here.

I have also included another alternating anomaly in Zodiac’s double l’s. He not only writes them at varying slants but also has the baseline on the second l lower than the first on many occasions. The angle of this baseline matches the angle on the tumbling u’s and I’ve copied the same line for these but changed it to green.

Ok one more to get out of the way. The X factor lol. He appears to leave a slighter larger spacing quite often after the letter X. The examples shown here include the full word ‘next’ which shows a very similar spacing, two examples of similar spacing in the word except after the X and also the use of X in ‘Super X’ to show that he has used an X that tumbles forward rather than leaning back and matches the X in the desktop poem.

Ok, more ‘stuff’

1. Top half – the ‘k’

Closest match is the SLA card ‘k’ used in the word "Kill". Included are K’s from the 340 cipher, the halloween card and the car door. I’ve blown up the K and the red line indicates the continued path if it were a 3-stroke. The line sits below the top edge of the bottom stroke possibly indicating that it could actually be an incomplete 3-stroke, I don’t know. To the right there is a bank of K’s – these are all from the citizen letter and you can see the variations from a definite 3 stroke to what could be seen as a 2 stroke. On the far right I have overlayed the cipher K and the car door K to show that the join point for a 3 stroke line up and the overall shapes are not entirely dissimilar.

2. Have included whole words for dress, over, new, into and death from other zodiac missives. Not suggesting matches here but overall from in some cases seems similar.

3. Have included examples of ‘th’ in zodiacs words along with red guideline for words ‘this’ for comparing.

4. Have included word ‘don’t’ as example of n’t

5. Have included words with ‘J’ in them – closest match is the word ‘adjusted’ from the Belli letter.

6. Have included words with ‘f’ in them – closest match is from the car door as I think we all thought anyway.

7. Just for fun – staring at this long enough and the mess around the apostrophe in the word ‘won’t’ I spotted this little visual trick which I have highlighted with the 6 and the 4 from the car door.

Regarding the infamous falling over d’s. Well he doesn’t always use them as it turns out. The examples shown here are from the ‘little list’ letter and the ‘Belli’ letter but mostly from the little list.

The two examples of S near the bottom of the poem are from the 408 and 340 ciphers. The S at the top is from the ‘Dripping Pen’ letter.

In the word ‘willing’ comparing it to the word ‘well’ from the little list the w’s match and the double l’s both narrow in towards each other at the bottom. There are other examples of this.

The unusual d at the far right in the word ‘die’ is matched to one again from the little list to show that he was sometimes, and for no apparent reason, anomalous in his letter creation.

The ‘to’ compared to the letters ‘ot’ from the little list. Practically a reverse of each other and I know there’s some controversy over whether that dot in the o is deliberate or something on the desk or the photo. I have another theory – it’s the ending off of the o but the pen cut out and left a stranded dot. If you look at the o in ‘oh well’ it happened there although you can clearly see the scratch in the desk there that caused it.

The baselines kinda speak for themselves. I also wanted to show here an overall similarity in baselines rather than direct matches in single words and I’ve shown these in green.

Finally I haven’t highlighted it here but the issue of the V’s and the Y’s. I think he simply changed how he wrote them. Whether it was deliberate I don’t know but he alternates his V’s over time from the loose ‘u’ like ones to pointed ones and even the loose one’s tighten up to more of a point over time so there’s a progression there towards the pointed V being the standard. I think as a result of this the y’s followed suit naturally given that they are basically V’s with a tail. I think if we had even earlier samples of his writing I would expect his Y’s to be loose and U-like.

Phew that’s a lot of stuff lol.

There’s more but it compares the bates envelopes with the desk so I think I’ll put that in a separate thread when I get the time or totally open to advice on the best place to stick it. This is enough to be getting on with for anyone to wade through I think.

Trav.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:35 pm

Thanks for posting great work. I am studying this but some of the matches you show are IMO stunning.

Stratcat, Subject: desk top and citizen letter Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:40 pm

Thanks traveller1st (I think)
Was just getting ready to go to bed. Now I have some studying to do.
Great work by the way!!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:10 pm

Thanks guys, sorry Strat lol.

Yeah AK the initial comparisons between the citizen letter and the poem are stunning (good word). The subsequent ones, some of them are very good but they are really there to compare rather than – look at these as well they are also perfect matches, because they aren’t. As I said they are a follow up really to see what else might be close or a match and were to and were to answer other people’s queries about specific comparisons like the famous candy cane f’s and the looped, slanting d’s etc.

Also I can’t state enough that I am no expert or even an amateur in handwriting analysis. I’m just comparing shapes.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:23 pm

Ok here’s the rest of it.

This is moving on to compare the Bates letters and envelopes with the desk. I’ve decided to keep it all in the one thread as it was all part of the same piece of work.

Ok, here’s the easy bits first. I was always planning to eventually get to the riverside documents in relation to zodiac so I’ve had this starting point in mind and it’s the capital R’s.

Basically I think they are the same (changing this to similar). The interesting thing is that they aren’t the same across the 3 riverside envelopes. So either it’s just a coincidence that he disguised those the letter R’s in the course of trying to write differently or he was consciously aware that they were unique in and of themselves. The envelope that has the non matching R’s also has two R’s on it that don’t even match each other.

The R’s I’m comparing them with are from Zodiac envelopes. At a cursory glance I think I can show links to the envelopes and the desk and also more stuff connecting the envelopes to Zodiac. Will post when I can. The actual letters will prove more challenging, as you can imagine

This one turned out more interesting than I thought it was going to be.

Comparison of the bus bomb envelope with the confession envelope.

Points noticed.

1. Use of block angular capitals in both.
2. Use of non-angular capital S in both
3. S from back of bus bomb letter quite similar
4. Placement of calif identical when lined up as I have done here.
5. A lot of matching angles in SF CHRONICLE and ATT: CRIME

Comparison of the E’s on the confession letter against the E’s on the Paradice/Slaves thingy on the back of the Halloween card.

A green dot means a straight copy n’ paste and just re-sized.

A red dot means re-sized but also stretched horizontally to help show the similarities.

The similarities are on the arms/legs of the E’s. Their length in relation to each with the bottom predominately being the longest and also the spacing between them.

One of the Riverside envelopes compared with the desk poem. All are straight copy and paste and re-sized. The only one rotated was the ‘SS’. I point this out because as a straight lift even the writing angles match in most cases.

Oh it never ends lol. Ok, here’s the poem compared with one of the riverside letters. The one sent to Bate’s Father.

It never occurred to me that I’m basically matching shapes until I looked at this one. By that I mean, Up until now I had been matching letters to the same letters and words to the same words. Due to the craziness of the printing in these, that was more difficult but I noticed matches in the shape of construction of certain letters that were similar to the construction of letters that weren’t the same letter.

i.e In this you will see a letterform under the n in the top row and the same letterform under two of the h’s in the poem. That letterform is actually the letter r from the riverside letter. You will also see a letterform paired to the e in red in the poem, that letterform is an e but I have also paired it with the c in the word cut as the construction shape matches. I have also used the looping M and cut it and flipped it to show similarity of the creation of that shape in the creation of the w’s in the poem.

There is also some baseline similarities in that the letter displays a similar inter-word drop down and level out (indicated in red).

The e’s are represented by e’s you’ll be glad to hear lol. The d’s, of course the same, and you dill notice that the similarity in the d’s comes from the ascender as it kinks slightly as it rises away from the bottom of the letterform before continuing on which from a distance gives the ascender a slightly curved appearance.

One final thing regarding the letters. As chaotic as they appear to be in their construction I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. I have over-layed all 3 letters and you can see that, even though they don’t line up perfectly, they roughly follow the same layout construction. Even the one to Bate’s Father, which was worded differently. This says to me that he thought about how to make his writing look crazy and when he decided he was happy with it, he duplicated the approach for all three letters.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:46 am

Wow Traveler, this is really some great work and I am glad you posted it. I need some time to go over it, but it is just more evidence that has me further leaning towards Z being in Riverside 66/67

Luke68, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:28 am

Terrific work Traveller.

I agree absolutely about the intent to make his writing look crazy as you said. It could also be to disguise it. Possibly even intentionally to separate it from the desk poem. Perhaps the killer wrote the desk poem at a time they weren’t really serious about murder?

The Bates letters have always looked to me like someone who is right handed, writing with their left.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:14 pm

My thoughts aside, you have done a lot of work with these comparisons. Good job!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:06 pm

Thanks Tahoe.

A point I’d like to add is that when discussing this over at ZKF someone asked about why the citizen letter matches were SO exact. This was something I had wondered about as well. With the help of other members it was confirmed that an image of the desk had been published in a magazine by the photographer who took the picture we all see, prior to 1974.

The potential implications here are that some of the constructs in the desk poem could have been copied to create parts of the citizen letter. Now if you believe that Zodiac wrote the citizen letter then it gets wonderfully weird because he was copying parts of his own stuff from many years previous. Maybe as a hidden acknowledge of ownership of the poem? Or just as a part of his being ‘clever’ MO and the ownership acknowledgement as a side-effect of that.

If you don’t believe that Zodiac wrote the citizen letter then I think that there is at least a strong suggestion that if it was a forgery, the poem was used to create part of it.

The third possibility is that neither the letter or the desk were written by the zodiac or anyone to do with the CJB case but were written by the same person.

bayarea60s, Subject: Traveller Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:26 pm

Excellent work…I think what you’ve done has got to be somewhat the process a handwriting expert would go through. We can all see why they determined the person who wrote the desktop & CJB letters also wrote the Citizen letter. Since Z wrote the Citizen letter, thus Z wrote the Bates/Desktop letters/poem. To me, a strong indication that Z was "’Doing His Thing", before we knew him as Z. Great Work!!!!

bentley, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:02 pm

I commented on Trav’s excellent work when first posted but to reiterate, expand and further bore:

I share the same doubt as some others as to the authorship of both the Desk top and Citizen letter, however tying the two together obviously adds to the possibility they both came from Z. A bit strange that what may well have been his first and last ‘public’ correspondences would share printing characteristics. Also that both omit the falling over ‘d’ and possibly some other Z hallmarks that I haven’t noticed.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:03 am

I commented on Trav’s excellent work when first posted but to reiterate, expand and further bore:

I share the same doubt as some others as to the authorship of both the Desk top and Citizen letter, however tying the two together obviously adds to the possibility they both came from Z. A bit strange that what may well have been his first and last ‘public’ correspondences would share printing characteristics. Also that both omit the falling over ‘d’ and possibly some other Z hallmarks that I haven’t noticed.

Yeah, if somebody wrote both the desktop and the Citizen’s letter, and that somebody was somebody other than Z, I just think the odds are really against it. I gotta side with the writing experts here, and think it is very likely that Z was in Riverside 66-67….which would very likely rule out my favorite Z suspect "Jimmy"….but only would make my 2nd favorite suspect "Freeforall" that much stronger a candidadte since he DID graduate with Cheri, and since he WAS living in Vallejo during the Z murders as his Brother confirmed for me. So far, I have tried unsuccessfully to obtain samples of his printed writing.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:01 pm

Still digesting all of this, again, great work!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:33 pm

Thanks Morf,

Yeah it’s a lot to take in. Digesting is the best way otherwise you could get indegestion – as with a lot of Z-stuff lol.

T

tracers, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Very impressive analysis! I can’t imagine how much time you put into this. Thanks!

zodio, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:09 am

Great work Trav!
Re-enforces my opinion that RPD couldn’t solve the killing of an ant if the Sgt. stepped on it if they still go with Barnett and not Z.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:12 pm

Traveller, once again, great work…I ma just re-reading this very nice thread you started and looking over your project. I am still very impressed. I am no writing expert, but I do see the things you mentioned. And for me, the photo below seals it for me that the desktop author, and the Bates letter writer are one and the same:

Everybody should def check out the writing comparison work done by TravellerFirst…it is a really great piece of work.

bayarea60s, Subject: Traveller Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:27 pm

This is great work. The small "g" in the citizen letter is a little different then in many of Z’s other writings, but nZ’s other writings and the desktop poem match up very well. I can see where Morrill would call it a match. And those words Z writes that start at one level, goes up in the middle and then come back down to original level. Z did that a lot. An excellent find.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:31 pm

This is great work. The small "g" in the citizen letter is a little different then in many of Z’s other writings, but nZ’s other writings and the desktop poem match up very well. I can see where Morrill would call it a match. And those words Z writes that start at one level, goes up in the middle and then come back down to original level. Z did that a lot. An excellent find.

Add that to Zodiac misspelling some of the same words that the confession letter writer misspelled, and both of them using a reference to ‘game’, I tend to think Z wrote all of the Riverside writing and desktop poem, and the confession letter…I also think its likely he killed Bates too

bayarea60s, Subject: The Mis-spelling Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:16 pm

Yeah I didn’t even take the Z mis-spelling problem into consideration. I think Z (the person) killed lots of people, mostly gals, but if the opportunity arose he’d take out a guy too (like a bonus for him). He only used this Z persona for a short period of time, I think he killed lots before revealing his Z persona, and many afterwards. I just can’t see a guy starting on Dec. 20, 1968 & ending on Oct. 11, 1969, having killed at 4 locations and instantly being so expert at it he could avoid several LE agencies, including the FBI. Let alone that he taunted the cops, as an added incentive for them to catch him. Wrote letters to them. I don’t see this MO fitting any other known Serial Killer I’ve heard about. Like anything I think it takes practice to become that good at it. As sick as that is. Just my opinion…….

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:51 pm

Thanks guys.

It’s good to get feedback so that I at least know that I wasn’t just making stuff up lol. Most of the time I’m convinced I am. It’s also good to see other angles mentioned because when I was doing this I was primarily concerned with shapes on a screen and similarities between them. Not so much any provenance or connections to other aspects of the case and other letters.

I’m still not sure myself about certain connections other than the original of the citizen letter to the poem. I’m pretty sure the same person wrote both but I’m not so sure about the Bates letters. I’m not unsure either, I just don’t know. I’ve done my best here to show similarities that I can/could see mostly as an attempt to try and see what Morrill saw.

Hey it does give ya hope that if a noob like me can stumble in and see stuff, that some future noobies may do the same and then some.

The one thing about this is the citizen letter and how it relates to the bulk of Zodiac’s writings. I’m the king of procrastination but I will get around to looking more closely at that aspect because on the surface I don’t see very many similarities. If I can do that and see something that I haven’t on casual inspection and be able to connect those then I will probably say with a good degree of certainty that Zodiac wrote that poem at least.

I have to agree with BA on a gut level that he had killed a lot and not just starting from Dec 69. I like that reasoning with regards his ability to avoid capture. I know a lot of people think he was lucky and and probably an equal amount think he was skilled. I’m 50/50 but the one of the many comments that has always intrigued me was ‘I have been too clever for them’. I wonder how? I don’t think it was anything that he ever disclosed from the disguise to the using of mail order etc etc. I think it was something else, a more overall cleverness like a grand plan, or a set of pre-decided rules for operating. You know, like he had thought everything through and how each elements might affect his chances of getting caught and then took measures to get around these problems.

Or was he just street smart? Stoopid mysteries lol.

bayarea60s, Subject: Z Lessons Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:36 pm

I think one thing Z learned about the difference in doing his deeds in a city vs. off the beaten path is that windows many times have eyes. He grossly underestimated LE response time. Sometimes it’s 5 minutes, but sometimes it’s less than a minute. In SF it was far less than he estimated.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:56 pm

Hi-

I haven’t had a chance to read over all of this and really study it but if you can show that Z wrote the Citizen letter 100% conclusively, it clearly shows that he was not the Neanderthal who could not spell simple words. The educational grade level of that letter based on vocabulary has to be quite higher than the other Z letters. In fact, if the Count Marco letter is phony, then the Citizen card may have been his last letter and his "kiss off" to the police showing them how smart he really was.

BTW, I know of an extremely intelligent POI who was most likely in Riverside when Bates was killed and who had a good reason to have been there on 4/30/67. BTW, it is not ALA!

Excellent work, BTW. It just goes to show that no matter how much work is done on the case, there is always something new that can be analyzed and examined!

Mike

Eduard, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:35 am

Great work, traveller! very impressive stuff you come up with!!!

bentley, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:18 pm

Yeah the Citizen letter, that’s a tough one. Here it is next to another 1974 letter, the Exorcist, which I have good confidence is Z’s work. At least it proves Z was still around in 1974, and seeing movies.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:22 am

Looking at this side by side is interesting. It looks like the same person wrote both, especially if I sit far back from the screen. The main difference is, the citizen letter was rushed, where as the Exorcist letter seems like he took his time. Personally, as much as Z liked to share his opinions with anybody that would listen,and used his letters as a soapbox, I think its very likely he wrote many other letters to bay area newspapers, as well as possibly Riverside letters, and who knows, in one or more of them, I wonder if he eevr used his real name? Maybe not so much BEFORE his Z murders, when he was likely too paranoid to put his name out there in any fashion, but in earlier years.

bayarea60s, Subject: Z’s writings Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:52 am

We’ll never know how many times Z was published in the newspapers. I would suspect he was a very frequent writer. The reader at the paper wouldn’t think anything of it if he didn’t ID himself.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:56 am

Hi Bay-

Interesting idea…I wonder if anyone has ever thought of looking for a letter writer to the local newspapers, LOL!

Mike

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:07 am

Hi Bay-

Interesting idea…I wonder if anyone has ever thought of looking for a letter writer to the local newspapers, LOL!

Mike

I looked at Vallejo Times Herald letters to the editor, but I only have the year 1974 available, and I dont know if he would have used his name during that time. I think 67-69 is when he likely would have used his real name. I think I did find one guy that wrote several letters to them, but I think I also learned he was a black gentleman. Here’s a link:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … in-vallejo

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:28 pm

I have looked for letters to the editors which are similar in tone, but unfortunately, they aren’t handwritten and so many back then had the same sort of pissed off attitude.

bayarea60s, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:41 pm

Yeah when you take the handwriting out of it I would think it would be futile. I doubt Z would ever use his real name, he’d sign off with some name relative to what he was writing about.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:40 pm

Based on this excellent work by TRAVELLER1st, he has helped me make up my mind that the writer of the desktop & the writer of the Bates letters are one and the same. Sherwood verified the link,and I respect his opinion as the unqunquestioned Z writing expert. To me, this proves that Z, whomever he was, was in the RCC library. SO was he a student,teacher,janitor??? Any ideas??

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:05 pm

A substitute teacher? If it was Z that kidnapped Johns he said that he worked for a few months then drove around. Sounds like something that would suit a sub rather than a full time job like a teacher or janitor.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:10 pm

I don’t mean to knock Trav’s fine work, but how many ways are there to make a t and an i? Even a lower-case e?

The letters I focus on are ones that offer unique characteristics; like the "g".

Zodiac had an interesting way of writing his "g". The "g" on the desk-top poem is always a straight shot down. NOT Zodiac’s. Other more distinctive letters like the "r", the "k" and the "d" dont’ cut it for me.

Funny thing– I used to think the desk-top poem was Zodiac’s, but for a while now have thought otherwise.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:01 pm

I don’t mean to knock Trav’s fine work, but how many ways are there to make a t and an i? Even a lower-case e?

The letters I focus on are ones that offer unique characteristics; like the "g".

Zodiac had an interesting way of writing his "g". The "g" on the desk-top poem is always a straight shot down. NOT Zodiac’s. Other more distinctive letters like the "r", the "k" and the "d" dont’ cut it for me.

Funny thing– I used to think the desk-top poem was Zodiac’s, but for a while now have thought otherwise.

Its not just the formation of the letters, but the formation and flow of the words. On the desktop, check out the word SPILLING. Then, to the right in the Zodiac’s writing, look how his word ending in SPEAKING follows the same exact pattern & formation

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:07 pm

Eh…just looks like the person starting vearing upwards and began compensating. It really only looks like that with the word "spilling". Not enough for me. Just MY take of course!

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:11 pm

Eh…just looks like the person starting vearing upwards and began compensating. It really only looks like that with the word "spilling". Not enough for me. Just MY take of course!

Yeah, hard to tell,and I think people see different things,I am just leaning towards Sherwood’s view.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:17 pm

I had done a side by side comparison of zodiac’s writing and that of an anonymous note in a double murder in the Houston area. There were quite a few similarities. One in particular was the way that Zodiac wrote the word CHRONICLE. He spaced it after the c’s,like C HRONIC LE. The Houston letter writer also spaced ot the same odd way. Thats not a common writing habit in most people,I am sure. I still think it could have been written by (look at the candy cane F,very much like Z’s). The Houston writing is sort of off topic here,I was just showing how Z wrote in certain patterns using odd spacing after certain letters. One thing I see now that I did not see before was the & symbol on the Houston letter,also, very z-like

mike_r, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:38 pm

This was a sex crime. Z was as asexual as budding yeast and never raped anyone.

Mike

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:03 pm

Have you ever tried to write on a desk top, into wood grain. It’s a little more difficult
than writing on paper and can skew the printing. I see alot of similarities in the desk poem
and the Zodiac’s writing, eventhough it doesn’t really fit my suspect’s profile, that he would
be so young down there killing…regarding sexuality…my belief is everything he did was rooted
in sexual confusion and relationships, heterosexual and homosexual.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:40 pm

I don’t mean to knock Trav’s fine work, but how many ways are there to make a t and an i? Even a lower-case e?

The letters I focus on are ones that offer unique characteristics; like the "g".

Zodiac had an interesting way of writing his "g". The "g" on the desk-top poem is always a straight shot down. NOT Zodiac’s. Other more distinctive letters like the "r", the "k" and the "d" dont’ cut it for me.

Funny thing– I used to think the desk-top poem was Zodiac’s, but for a while now have thought otherwise.

No knocks taken . These are all valid observations. What I hope to show when I take a closer look at the citizen letter is that there are either possible reasons for the discrepancies or there aren’t. Either way there are elements of this letter that I feel need looked at closer. As I said before I’m not entirely satisfied with it yet.

I know what you’re saying about the G’s – the ones on the citizen letter don’t match Zodiac’s or the desk but Zodiac’s are pretty close to the desk. I was the same about the citizen letter as you were with the desk Tahoe, I was sure it was Zodiac at first but now I’m not sure. I am starting to swing a little towards it being him though after some initial comparison work today. there’s also the lowercase p’s and the uppercase B on the citizen letter – I don’t like those either.

There’s also this aspect of disguised handwriting. I don’t know how to feel about that but it does have to be taken into consideration. I prefer to think the bulk of it, if any, wasn’t disguised but that’s just because it makes things easier.

My primary concern with this was the striking similarities in line formation in some areas between the letter and the desk, the other comparisons I have shown were really as a matter of course so that others could compare. Some I feel look good, some not so good but I was not really comparing those to say – look a perfect match.

Nothing’s ever simple with this case is it lol.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:14 pm

This was a sex crime. Z was as asexual as budding yeast and never raped anyone.

Mike

You’re right, about Z likely not raping anybody,but he DID try to take credit for crimes he didnt do. Thats what I thought regarding this crime,that he didnt rape anybody but could have just been the author

zodio, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:40 pm

And if he did kill Cheri and Robert and Linda he exposed Linda’s breasts, wrote that Cheri’s breast was warm in his hand, and that killing is better than getting your rocks off, so he wasn’t completely oblivious to the fact some victims were female and built a little differently than him.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:57 pm

Hi-

There is a difference between killing Bates and writing on the desktop. Z may have been titillated and intrigued by the Bates murder but he did not have to kill her in order to write on the desktop…or to write the "Bates had to die" letters.

Mike

bayarea60s, Subject: Interesting Zodio Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:31 am

Also the Nikki Benedict case killer cut through her clothes and breast.

bayarea60s, Subject: Z and sex crimes Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:04 am

I think from what we know of "Z Crimes" as they relate to N. Ca. it becomes almost impossible to gain any thought of a sexual driver. You have to take Stine out of it, that leaves just 3 cases. I think we can omit LHR, 22 degrees, freezing cold night, not very condusive to a sexual crime environment. so we’re really trying to determine an MO from 2 cases. We know he stabbed Cecilia many times, did he purposely stab her through the breast? I don’t recall that, but maybe he did. Did he purposely shoot Darlene in the breast? I don’t recall that either, but I do recall the RO stating that while in the ambulance with her, every time Dalene took a breath he could see the tag from her bra flutter.
As I’ve said before I think Z before Dec. 20, 1968 had killed many times before, and I feel he killed many times after Oct 11, 1969.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:08 am

I think from what we know of "Z Crimes" as they relate to N. Ca. it becomes almost impossible to gain any thought of a sexual driver. You have to take Stine out of it, that leaves just 3 cases. I think we can omit LHR, 22 degrees, freezing cold night, not very condusive to a sexual crime environment. so we’re really trying to determine an MO from 2 cases. We know he stabbed Cecilia many times, did he purposely stab her through the breast? I don’t recall that, but maybe he did. Did he purposely shoot Darlene in the breast? I don’t recall that either, but I do recall the RO stating that while in the ambulance with her, every time Dalene took a breath he could see the tag from her bra flutter.
As I’ve said before I think Z before Dec. 20, 1968 had killed many times before, and I feel he killed many times after Oct 11, 1969.

We have to remember what the experts say too about Z, that his sexual satisfaction comes,not from sex with victims, but from the murders themselves. Thats the sexual part for Z. Also,that stabbing a person, ass opposed to shooting them, allows a killer to be more up close & intimate with a person, possibly furthering their sexual satisfaction, which could explain Zodiac’s stabbing murder (or 2 if he killed Bates too). Another reason I think Z likely was a younger killer, is because he seemed to be intimidated by ‘older’ victims. He lways killed the weakest, easiest victims, kids or 19-23 year old age range. Stine seemed like he did not fit zodiac’s pattern in anyway, and I think he was murdered simply to switch up the pattern. Therefore, I think Z was close in age to his victims, and felt more in control. I dont think he dared try to attack an older adult man….although, I still think that the June 1967 Alameda murders were very possibly Zodiac.. http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ac-victims
In this case, the victims were over 30 years old. But he simply may have stumbled upon them while they were parked on a lovers lane. But there was evidence they were being stalked, and receiving calls from a heavy breather prior to their murders.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:42 am

Hi-

FWIW, a guy who profiles criminals for a living, who has helped solve scores of cases (including one where there was no body found, which is usually the starting point of any investigation) and who, by my estimation (because I have a tough time reaching him a lot of the time), travels 2/3rds of the year consulting with police departments, as well as being a founder of a prestigious group of cold case experts and training FBI agents in profiling in his "spare time", called Z an "asexual" killer.

That is good enough for me.

Mike

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:10 pm

I never felt Zodiac killed in replace of sex or whatever.

bentley, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:50 pm

I don’t mean to knock Trav’s fine work, but how many ways are there to make a t and an i? Even a lower-case e?

The letters I focus on are ones that offer unique characteristics; like the "g".

Zodiac had an interesting way of writing his "g". The "g" on the desk-top poem is always a straight shot down. NOT Zodiac’s. Other more distinctive letters like the "r", the "k" and the "d" dont’ cut it for me.

Funny thing– I used to think the desk-top poem was Zodiac’s, but for a while now have thought otherwise.

This is the logic I follow as well, look for odd non-matches rather than matching simple chars. However, Tahoe provoked me to search a bit and the first article proved I know very little about the subject. OTOH I can look at the 20+ pages of genuine Z missives and easily say it’s the same hand, so identifying his writing on some other document shouldn’t be all that tough.

Suppose crime scene investigators (CSI’s) find a suicide note at the scene of a homicide. How do they know if the deceased is the person that wrote the note or if the note was written by somebody else?

In this article, I will attempt to explain what forensic handwriting examiners look for when comparing handwriting between one document such as a suicide note to a known document containing the person’s handwriting.

When making comparisons between two handwritten documents, a forensic handwriting analyst looks for points of consistency and points of discrepancy between the known handwriting standards and the questioned document. The forensic scientist looks for the following:

Content–Grammar, punctuation, and diction help steer the analyst toward consistent mistakes, repeated phrases, and other hints that suggest at the author’s ethnicity or educational level.
Overall form–The shape, size, slant, proportion, and the beginning and ending strokes of the letters are an integral part of the author’s overall form.
Format and margins–The width of the margins, consistency of the spaces between words, and the slant between lines fall into this group, which encompasses the overall form and layout of the handwriting.
Line features–Speed of writing, fluidity, and pressure of the pen used give clues about line features as well as the spacing between the letters and words and the connectivity between the letters.
Perspicacious forensic handwriting analysts scrutinize all of these features when making comparisons among documents and signatures. No individual feature makes an accurate comparison, but a combination of features may allow analysts to find out whether suspect and sample writings came from the same person. Based on what they find in their examination, the forensic analyst may conclude that the documents are one of the following:

Perfectly match
Mostly match
Somewhat match
Do not match at all
Not every analysis yields an answer. The forensic handwriting analyst may also say that he can not come to a conclusion based on the given samples. That particular outcome is not very common. If the handwriting in question is cursive or a signature, a highly trained analyst usually can ascertain whether a certain person created it. If, on the other hand, the questioned document is printed, this job is way too difficult because many of the distinctive characteristics of cursive handwriting are not present in printed material.

To the benefit of law enforcement authorities, many perpetrators are not that smart. This is very evident in written documents, where misspellings are commonplace. Forensic document analysts take advantage of these mistakes. When suspected authors of forged checks or ransom notes are requested to provide handwriting samples for comparison, analysts usually ask them to use the same keyword phrases that were misspelled in the questioned document. If a suspect is the author of a document in question, he or she will misspell the exact same words.

The federal government maintains a database of handwriting samples. The National Fraudulent Check File, Bank Robbery Note File, and the Anonymous Letter File are all operated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). These databases contain reference files to which forensic handwriting analysts can compare some questionable documents. There are other high-tech databases that exist such as the Forensic Information System for Handwriting (FISH). The FISH database contains scanned and digitized documents that authorities can make comparisons with. Forensic document analysts visually inspect any consistencies.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/925155

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:30 pm

Tell me about it. There’s so much to take into account but the more you look at something the more you see in this regard. Sometimes, in fact most times you have to look at it then leave it and revisit it. Take Tahoe’s example of the ‘g’. There is the obvious initial differences but after a while you start seeing reason and examples of why that might be. OWK mentioned the wood grain and that’s one thing I’ve had to factor in. There are, to my eye, examples of this in the desk writing where you can see deviance’s that could be accounted for by this.

Regarding Zodiac’s g’s, they were for the most part, tailed with a rounding but there are also examples where he doesn’t round the tail off and the tail itself is relatively straight and these aren’t one-off’s. There are sometimes several examples of this within one letter. Considering this interim type g it isn’t unreasonable to see how it would translate to the g’s on the desk with the straight tail and no rounding off taking into account the path of least resistance groove created by a biro ball on wood.

I believe such instances would have to fall under inconclusive, for me anyway.

Ok, here a little something Morf sent me to look at in regard to the Cheri-Jo case. Overall I don’t see a match but there is something interesting about the double s in the word class. What does everyone else make of it?

I didn’t compare the n’s cause they are pretty much good for bates and zodiac stuff. The ‘next’ looks pretty good but I’m not entirely happy about the angles on the ‘x’. The ‘R’ is quite interesting as it does have quite a similar shape to the one used in the Bates stuff – a sort of angular loop construction on the top.

Anything I’ve just underlined in green I’m not happy with. Even the ‘f’ – I don’t see it as close enough. The construction of the ‘u’s’ is ok but not the form, the tail is a little too long for my liking and the distinctive lean is missing although it is missing through out this sample. The ‘p’ and ‘y’ show no construction similarities.

I’ve picked a ‘k’ at random from the stine letter – not an exact match but not totally dissimilar either.

The ‘B’ is an obvious non match. It does show some similarities to the flourished ‘B’ in the citizen letter but not close enough to my eye.

The thing that is interesting about the sample are the words ‘class’ and ‘this’ – both together in the middle. There’s the lack of spacing, there’s the displaced dot from the ‘i’ in ‘this’ but most interesting is the enlargement of the double ‘s’ in ‘class’. This is also evident in the word ‘dress’ from the desk poem. I had previously noted that in some cases but not all, Zodiac seems to display similar properties concerning the use of double letters, whether that be unusual spacing before or after them and or changes in font size around those occurrences too.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:42 pm

Thanks TRAV. Wanted to get some thoughts on the writing. I agree with much of what Trav said. He is specifically interested in the double SS in the word CLASS when compared to the double SS in the desktop word DRESS. They are both oddly much larger and bolder than the rest of the letters in the word. I also like the lower case n, the word NEXXT when compared against the desktop,I wish there was a couple more candy cane f’s to compare. The writer of this sample was in the 1966 RCC yearbook,and had graduated from Ramona HS 2 years before Bates. He actually appears in a photo with Cheri’s fiance in the 64 yearbook

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:59 pm

Both of the letters below are confirmed Z letters, from only a couple months apart. And since Z wrote them without identifying himself as Zodiac, he may have not disguised his writing. What is weird is that he uses 2 diff k’s.

bentley, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:18 pm

Who confirmed the SLA letter? It is not listed on SFPD’s list of suspected Z letters.

The only 1974 letter that was tested for DNA was the Exorcist.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:47 am

Hi-

If you look at the blocks of code, when Z made a "K" it was three-stroke. But when he made a BACKWARDS "K" it is only two stroke, which I believe may have been his him reverting to his subconscious, natural way of making it. Just IMHO.

Mike

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:30 am

Hi-

If you look at the blocks of code, when Z made a "K" it was three-stroke. But when he made a BACKWARDS "K" it is only two stroke, which I believe may have been his him reverting to his subconscious, natural way of making it. Just IMHO.

Mike

Thats a valid point, but personally, I think taht his free flowing writing(not the ciphers blocks/rows)was his true way of forming it. His long winded letters in my opinion would be too hard to continuously change, and he have to constantly think about it. When designing the block ciphers, dna writing some backwards letters, that wouldnt be as natural for him, and I could see him executing them differently.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:55 am

Thanks again for this work TRAV.

This is the closest that I have come across to being a match for the Bates & Z writing. Not saying it is definitely Zodiac’s, but looks pretty close in many areas in my opinion.

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:41 am

Have a closer look at the text of the SLA-letter:

It starts with ‘Near Mr. Editor’ instead of ‘Dear Mr. Editor’.

Although it could´ve been cut off, I don´t think this is the case: The following capital letters (‘M’ in ‘Mr.’ and ‘E’ in ‘Editor’) weren´t cut off at all and does the ‘N’-letter in the lower right area look somehow edgy, rather like a ‘N’ than a ‘D’.

QT

bentley, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:50 am

‘Near Mr. Editor’ is a dig at the Editor I think (like ‘almost an editor’), perhaps in response to an earlier article. Interesting, but again I have seen no evidence that card is Z work.

In December, 1973, the Chronicle reportedly ran an article (that I have yet to see) asking Z to again correspond. Z did just that shortly thereafter, in January 1974 with the Exorcist letter, just to let them know he was in fact still around. IMO this put every bored letter opener at the Chron back on watch for Z missives. Why would Z bother disguising his writing for the SLA and CM letters?

I agree with Morf on the Ks. Mr. X, btw, whose first name begins with a K, uses a two stroke for his signature.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:29 pm

Hi-

If you look at the blocks of code, when Z made a "K" it was three-stroke….

Mike

While I know this wasn’t code work it is one of the reasons I question the HC card:

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:42 pm

Hi-

If you look at the blocks of code, when Z made a "K" it was three-stroke….

Mike

While I know this wasn’t code work it is one of the reasons I question the HC card:

Thanks for posting this. Look at how Zodiac’s Y curls under,and compare that to the Y in the sample that Trav posted above for me, I think its close to another match

bentley, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:59 pm

Hi-

If you look at the blocks of code, when Z made a "K" it was three-stroke….

Mike

While I know this wasn’t code work it is one of the reasons I question the HC card:

Me too, plus about 10 other reasons….

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:21 am

For me, this writing is the closest I have seen to the desktop. And guess what, now it turns out, the guy that was in Riverside college that I think wrote this, has a brother & sisterin law that has lived in Pleasanton Alameda County for years. Worthy of a closer look I think.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:39 am

Possibly. I’m not seeing as much of a similarity as you are but based on that double s alone it’s interesting. In the meantime here’s one where I haven’t cut the top of the desk off lol.

EDIT: One thing that springs to mind is if the similarities between the desk and the citizen letter are due to them being from same author then any writing that isn’t the same style (whether there are similarities or not) suggests that both the desk and the citizen letter were written in a disguised hand. This makes it more likely that the writer of another sample of interest may be the Zodiac. If a sample was a closer match that at least keeps the possibility alive that the writer of the desk and the citizen letter was not the Zodiac and these two communications were just coincidence.

I think what I’m trying to say is that if the sample was a closer match then the odds of finding the author would increase and also the odds would bee better of finding am answer if two options were equally possibly – the Zodiac or coincidence. I just think that trying to match a third style – ie neither close enough to the desk and the citizen or to Zodiac accepted letters IMO makes it less likely to be fruitful. But hey, you never know, I’m just thinking out loud and at least your interest has provenance regarding timelines and locations.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:40 am

Thanks again for adding that writing sample next to the Desktop.

Let me simplify….I am no writing expert, and I am only comparing that sample of writing to the Desktop poem ,and not even looking at the Bates letters or the Zodiac letters. To me, I see alot of similarities between the desk & that sample you addded for me. I will point them out:

I see close similarity between the sample of writing I provided, and the deaktop as follows:

Lower case W
Lower case R
Lower case N
Lower case E
Lower case U
Lower case H is close too

the entire word NEXT…although there is a slightly diff slant on the desk, which could be beacause he was hunched over it at an odd angle

both the sample & the desk use a candy cane style F. A slightly diff sized top, but there is only one letter f in both the desk, and the sample, so more samples of F’s from both would be helpful.

both use a enlarged SS in words where SS appears together …(Do we see that in Z letters? Havent got that far yet)

In the sample I provided, in the word LUCK, the sample has a bend in the lower casel, and so does l’s in the word TILL on the desk.

And one thing that looks like Zodiac in the sample I provided, Zodiac bends his lower case Y underneath to the left, as you see in the sample

All in all ,I see alot more similairty than difference. I will try to get more of this guy’s writing somehow.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:33 am

I’m no expert either but there is something about it, I have to agree. I’ve considered all the similarities you mention and they are similar but I can’t be sure they are specific similarities or generic due to the difference in style. By that I mean that the sample is closer to cursive than print in my mind.

Just noticed that of the y’s in the sample two are the same and one is different. Regarding anything similar to the double s in the Zodiac missives, I haven’t got that far yet either lol but I do remember noting that certain anomalies occurred around Zodiac’s doubles when I was looking at the desk poem and the doubles. you can see it in the other doubles n the poem , there’s an extra spacing before the doubles.

Ok I’ve had a quick look. There is a hint of enlarged double s’s. In the LA Times letter check out ‘fat asses’ and ‘stumbling across’. ‘shabbly dressed’ n the Aug 4th 1969 letter to the Chron – I think I used that one for comparison with the desk. They aren’t as pronounced as the desk or the sample and it may just be that due to the construction of an s they generally take up more height when writing small otherwise they become indistinct.

bentley, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:45 am

Just read last night, in case anyone else didn’t know this, that the desk top was written in ball point pen as opposed to the felt tip used in the Bates and of course Z letters. One would think a desk, where a ball point might tend not to disperse the ink, would be the perfect spot for a felt tip. Could be though that the opportunity came up sans felt tip in hand.

Anyhow, since we’re all giving our ‘I’m no expert but here goes’ opinions, I think it also important, perhaps more so, to consider the method in which one forms the characters as much as the form of the characters, which can often vary within the same document. The K is perfect example of course, with the 3 stroke K requiring lifting the pen from paper a second time. Z fortunately used this, I would say less than usual, method consistently in all of his canonical missives, which is probably why the case handwriting experts always mention it. Could Z have varied on occasion, such as the desk top? Obviously the experts that verified it (was it Morrill?) thought so.

Other examples would be p, d and a few other letters where some do the entire letter without lifting pen from paper by using a double vertical stroke, other use a single vertical and lift the pen to finish the letter. Thirdly, some tend to mix lower and upper case styles, Jack Tarrence being the perfect example. While his writing was very Z like, he invariably used this type of a, ‘a’, instead of Z’s style, which to me is a deal killer.

Again the abnormal conditions of the desk top may explain some of the differences. For example, if you carve some message on a park bench with a knife, you don’t carve the entire letter, you carve a stroke and then check to make sure you’ve formed that part, then go on. Same might hold true for the desk top, where the writer had to check to make sure the pen was actually writing on the surface before moving on, and I think it shows in some of the letters which are gone over more than once.

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:36 am

Thanks for the obseravtions Bentley. I wish I had a bigger sample of writing for this guy. I am going to attempt to gather more samples.

bayarea60s, Subject: I don’t know Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:51 am

I’m not an expert either, but the desk top and Z’s known stuff still looks good to me. What year did that Yearbook example come from. I take it it’s Pacific High School. Is it ’64 or ’66?

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:34 am

I’m not an expert either, but the desk top and Z’s known stuff still looks good to me. What year did that Yearbook example come from. I take it it’s Pacific High School. Is it ’64 or ’66?

That yearbook stuff above is from Ramona HS class of 65.(one year ahead of Cheri)The guy that wrote it also went to Riverside College, and appears in the 66 yearbook. Unfortunately, its such a small sample to work with. BAYAREA, check your PM.

bayarea60s, Subject: Pacific??? Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:20 am

Wow must have been late…Pacific HS.???? I will check my PM…

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:18 pm

I am no handwriting expert, by any means. We had a staff of those at NCIS for that purpose.

Having said this, I want to encourage all of you to continue to investigate whatever you think may help these cases. I believe it will take a BIG BREAK to solve anything, so nothing should be ignored!

I will cheer all of you on for your hard work and dedicated time.

bayarea60s, Subject: Train Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:30 am

So true, it will take something that maybe has been missed, or something that is found, something that’s said. We just never know, anything is possible.

sandy betts, Subject: Cheri Jo Bates Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:38 pm

I am looking for any help on a list of janitors who may have worked at RCC 1966. Sense the poem was written under the desk, it would be easy for someone who had to turn these desks over to jaunt down a sick poem.
I am looking at one of my poi’s who was a janitor, that did grow up in southern Calif. I can account for his where abouts all over Calif.,except for 1966 and 1963. After that he was in the Navy on the ship Enterprise, which did dock in Vallejo sometime between 1968 and 69, while I was working in Vallejo. I don’t have any handwriting samples on him yet, unless he is the one who has sent me many Z like notes ?
Most of those can be seen on the Sandy’s poi thread, for those of you who are new to the board.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:43 pm

I am looking for any help on a list of janitors who may have worked at RCC 1966. Sense the poem was written under the desk, it would be easy for someone who had to turn these desks over to jaunt down a sick poem.
I am looking at one of my poi’s who was a janitor, that did grow up in southern Calif. I can account for his where abouts all over Calif.,except for 1966 and 1963. After that he was in the Navy on the ship Enterprise, which did dock in Vallejo sometime between 1968 and 69, while I was working in Vallejo. I don’t have any handwriting samples on him yet, unless he is the one who has sent me many Z like notes ?
Most of those can be seen on the Sandy’s poi thread, for those of you who are new to the board.

Hi Sandy, if you PM me his name and DOB I´ll see if I can find anything on him in 1963-1966.

bayarea60s, Subject: Sandy…. Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:14 pm

Sandy….

PM me his name also and I will see what I can find from the Dept. of Navy….

Bayarea60’s

morf13, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:56 pm

I have long tried to find a list of RCC Janitors, but never did find one, although I was given a list of faculty, teachers, office people, etc, but it did not contain Janitors.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Re: The desk and the citizen letter Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:04 pm

Hi, Sandy:

Please do not take this as being contraditive or any disrespect, but I suggest you also include "custodians" as well as "janitors" in your search. School districts hired both. A janitor was, well, like a "mop man" while a custodian did maintenance as well. I knew several custodians and school officials and I was told they are kept under separate lists.

Hope that information helps.

sandy betts, Subject: Help Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:07 am

Thank you very much TF I will send you the information I have on him.
BA60’s I will send you the same, thanks

This is the excellent analysis by Trav, with contributions from others, that is very convincing to me that the desktop poem was very likely done by Zodiac. A lot of material here to read, but IMO important.

Dear AK, do you believe that Ted wrote the desk bottom poem?

Dear AK, do you believe that Ted wrote the desk bottom poem?

Well that is not really relevant here. Yes I think the desktop poem was likely done by Zodiac and that Zodiac was likely Ted.

But I would say lets leave individual POI’s out of this thread unless there is something really on point. I am very happy to discuss Ted, and poems he wrote, and his other red herring letters and clues which cleverly point blame to others, including an "RV", in the Ted section.

What I think is important here is that Trav shows IMO very convincing matches which persuade me to think that the desktop writer very likely later wrote the "Bates has to die" envelopes and the Zodiac letters.

If Zodiac wrote the Bates Had to Die Letters (which really don’t contain enough sample to determine definitively) and the desk bottom poem,
then Zodiac killed Cheri Jo, and the Riverside Police have the Zodiac Killer’s MtDNA. Sorry, I’m sure I’m in the wrong thread, but that would be the
bottom line here. There was also regular DNA recovered from the wristwatch and a cigarette butt from the murder scene at Riverside.

Dear AK, do you believe that Ted wrote the desk bottom poem?

Well that is not really relevant here. Yes I think the desktop poem was likely done by Zodiac and that Zodiac was likely Ted.

But I would say lets leave individual POI’s out of this thread unless there is something really on point. I am very happy to discuss Ted, and poems he wrote, and his other red herring letters and clues which cleverly point blame to others, including an "RV", in the Ted section.

What I think is important here is that Trav shows IMO very convincing matches which persuade me to think that the desktop writer very likely later wrote the "Bates has to die" envelopes and the Zodiac letters.

Not to forget about the ‘curvy f’. BTW, Ted Kaczynski had a similar writing style sometimes..however this is a handwriting example that appears to show his real handwriting:

http://nimg.sulekha.com/others/original … -40-50.jpg

It is not very Z like, imo, especially the curvy ‘f’ is missing totally. If you have a look at Z’s letters, you can see that his curvy ‘f’ gets less curvy over the years.

QT

QT that is cursive. I have a lot of TK printing posted in his section.

OWK there was no DNA recovered from watch or cig to my knowledge. There is mtDNA from the hair but I have tried and failed to get that compared. David K refused to give me a hair sample on grounds that he did not want Ted to face death penalty for Zodiac or Tylenol.

Please review the FBI reports on Riverside last bit of the DNA testing states they have returned the results of the DNA
for the wrist watch and the cigarette butt separately, when they were testing for Riverside’s suspect. The problem being,
that it could be anyone’s cigarette butt and anyone’s wristwatch. The MtDNA is surely the killer’s. The FBI report also clearly
states that they did not determine the handwriting from the Bates Had to Die Letters similar to the Zodiac’s printing. The
FBI did not agree with Sherwood Morrill. So either the Zodiac was in Riverside or he wasn’t. CA DOJ said that the don’t believe
Zodiac killed Cheri Jo. But if he did, we at least have the MtDNA. Sorry about the thread infraction.