I ask it for a good reason Quicktrader. When James Owen travelled from Vallejo along LHR he has at least one stretch of road devoid of bends and dips, and is able to see at least 40 seconds in front of him, but reports no taillights or vehicle ahead of him. When he is just short of the turnout he has a visual on the turnout at least 30 seconds before reaching it. He doesn’t mention any headlights approaching from the Benicia end and entering the turnout. Therefore, at a bare minimum, when he spotted the two vehicles as he drove alongside the turnout, the Zodiac Killer’s vehicle must have been present in the turnout for at least 30 seconds (it could have been there much longer) – but he sees no people in or around either vehicle. He heard no shots, saw no victims on the turnout floor, no doors open and no shattered glass. If this were true, then how do we reconcile the events that night.

I don’t think it would be unusual for a young couple making out to duck down to avoid being spotlighted by an oncoming car. Z, of course, would’ve ducked out of sight too. I can’t imagine another explanation, given the tight time frame,

We know that Zodiac’s vehicle (according to Owen’s testimony) must have been parked alongside the Rambler for a bare minimum of 30 seconds when James Owen passed the turnout. The ducking down scenario presupposes that as Zodiac pulled alongside the Rambler in the dark, lonely turnout, David Faraday just sat with BLJ doing absolutely nothing for 30 seconds (but could have been several minutes). It also presupposes that Zodiac hadn’t exited his vehicle and began the attack for at least 30 seconds. Zodiac and Faraday therefore remained in their vehicles doing nothing for a minimum of 30 seconds until James Owen passed – then they all ducked down. David Faraday was described by Peggy Your as responding inside the vehicle when they passed, but here we have a scenario where Zodiac, presumably with headlights on and engine running, pulls into the turnout just 10 feet from the Rambler, yet the occupants of both vehicles sat doing nothing for at least 30 seconds then ducked down. David Faraday, one would have thought would have been highly suspicious of a vehicle pulling alongside him that late at night and not just sat there doing nothing. It also assumes that Zodiac having pulled alongside doesn’t leave his vehicle for a minimum of 30 seconds. If both vehicles had been in the turnout 2-3 minutes prior to Owen arriving, then the whole scenario breaks completely down.

Yes Chaucer, a bullet was found in her panties.

Wasn’t a bullet found in Betty Lou’s panties?

That is #3 on Richards list. The one found at the morgue.

Wasn’t a bullet found in Betty Lou’s panties?

That is #3 on Richards list. The one found at the morgue.

I hate to say, but could he have shot her in the groin intentionally? It makes me think of the Bates letter writer threatening genital mutilation of victims.

Wasn’t a bullet found in Betty Lou’s panties?

That is #3 on Richards list. The one found at the morgue.

I hate to say, but could he have shot her in the groin intentionally? It makes me think of the Bates letter writer threatening genital mutilation of victims.

There were no entry wounds in her groin – all five entered the right side of her back.

[1] The first was located in the 5th intercostal space, 3 and 3/4 inches right of the midline.
[2] The second was in the 8th intercostal space, 5 and 1/2 inches from the midline.
[3] The third was in the 9th intercostal space, 1 and 1/2 inches from the midline.
[4] The fourth was the tip of the right 12th rib, 3 and 1/2 inches from the midline.
[5] The fifth was over the crest of the posterior right iliac bone and 5 and 1/2 inches from the midline.

The pellet found in the panties of victim Betty Lou Jensen was discovered during examination of the deceased. The pellet had entered the lower back, coursing through her body and emerging under the waist band elastic of her panties, where it was found. Don’t forget, in 1968 women’s undergarments often had a higher line. The bullet entered the posterior iliac crest penetrating the deep muscles and exiting to the right of the umbilicus.

Another major problem Soze, is Robert Connelly twice stated he saw the Rambler facing the gate on the west side of the turnout. This means that its final resting position was not the same as the Rambler viewed by Peggy and Homer Your.
[1] The Your’s observed the Rambler first on their exit towards Benicia (on eastern edge)
[2] Robert Connelly described vehicle on west bank.
[3] Owen & Medeiros described it back over towards the eastern side.

Therefore it couldn’t have been in the identical position between [1] and [3].
I believe the couple were parked on the west bank when Zodiac arrived, and he pulled in behind them, forcing them over to the eastern side – then began his attack. It is perfectly conceivable that being disturbed by the constant illumination of vehicles while they parked on the eastern side of the turnout, they shifted the Rambler to the west bank where headlights were less intrusive – then Zodiac pulled in behind them. They may have attempted to pull across the turnout and reverse out as Zodiac struck. The Robert Connelly sighting doesn’t fit the perceived narrative of a stationary Rambler throughout, but he unequivocally stated his observations on two separate occasions.

We have :-

9.00 – Couple leave Sharon’s house
9.00 – 59-60 Chevy Impala 4 door hardtop seen by hunters at turnout and a truck coming out of the gate
9.30 – 10.00 Crow in turn out, No Impala in turnout. Reports seeing a Blue possibly Valiant (Although he contests this) direction of Vallejo from Benecia. Chases him to Benecia turn off
10.00 – Sheep Herder Reports seeing White Chevy Impala in turnout
10.15 – Helen (BLJ’s Friend) – Car facing towards gate
10.20 – Helen (BLJ’s Friend) – See’s New bright yellow foreign car parked on road facing Benecia 2 people in.
10.30 – Helen (BLJ’s Friend) – Car turned around and facing field to the left
10.30 – Meyring report by Stan. Olds 2 Door H.T. 88 (Don) Blue in colour and a 63 Chevy Imapla (2 People in) turn off LH Road onto Columbus.
11.05 – Peggy Your – Car parked eastside turned around at Marshall ranch and drove past in opposite direction. Car still in same spot. See’s a car at guard post entrance to Humble Oil
11.10? – Connelly – Car parked westside by banked slope (didn’t see anybody in the car)
11.15 – Owen – Car parked eastside with another car parked next to it. Abreast to station wagon between 4-10 feet apart. Claims to hear gun shot after driving 1/4 of a mile. Also see a vehicle going the opposite direction towards Vallejo by Ranch
11.20 – Stella – drives past and see’s bodies See’s no cars going in either direction
11.25 – Stella flags down officers in Benecia at Enes station on East 2nd Street
11.28 – Pitta / Warner arrives at scene
11.52 – Butterbach / Waterman arrive at scene. Benecia police and Fairfield Daily Reporter the scene

And based on your timeline Cragle, unknown vehicle spotted by Borges Ranch by James Owen, heading towards Vallejo at 11:12pm.

And based on your timeline Cragle, unknown vehicle spotted by Borges Ranch by James Owen, heading towards Vallejo at 11:12pm.

Sounds about right Richard. Something else though that stuck out to me was a quote from one of the hunters. They made a reference to all the lights being on at the pump house, it sounds as though this was not a regular occurrence as they noticed it.

And based on your timeline Cragle, unknown vehicle spotted by Borges Ranch by James Owen, heading towards Vallejo at 11:12pm.

Sounds about right Richard. Something else though that stuck out to me was a quote from one of the hunters. They made a reference to all the lights being on at the pump house, it sounds as though this was not a regular occurrence as they noticed it.

Was that the activity near the Dotta Ranch.

Yes, I have heard mention of “unusual activity” at the pump house that night, but nothing more about it. Wouldn’t whoever worked or was at the pump house have to go through Gate 10? Were employees there ever interviewed?

And based on your timeline Cragle, unknown vehicle spotted by Borges Ranch by James Owen, heading towards Vallejo at 11:12pm.

Sounds about right Richard. Something else though that stuck out to me was a quote from one of the hunters. They made a reference to all the lights being on at the pump house, it sounds as though this was not a regular occurrence as they noticed it.

Was that the activity near the Dotta Ranch.

Is that what they referring to, not the pump house ? With them mentioning it the same sentence as the pump house I might have incorrectly assumed.

No you are definitely correct. It is something barely mentioned, so ascertaining whether it has any relevance is difficult to say.

As the hunters saw a truck coming out of the gate @ 9 and that the lights were on at the pump house leads me to think that maybe the reason the rambler switched positions a few times could have been possibly due to the truck returning whilst they were in the turn out. If the gates opened outwards they may have had to move their car to allow the gates to open and then the vehicle to pass through them.

The Rambler was never spotted by Bingo Wesner at 10 pm. Helen Axe did see the Rambler at 10:15 and 10:30 pm (according to her), "Miss Axe reports that she and her boyfriend, a sailor, were driving on Lake Herman Road. They passed the area of the pumping station, she recognized the Rambler and the victims, Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday. Stated that when she went by about 10.15 pm, the car was facing in towards the gate and when she returned about 15 minutes later after having gone to the end of the road and then came back, the car was turned around and the front was facing the field, a little to the side."

So, it was in a different position at 10:15, then likely assumed its eastern facing position. Then it changed again just past 11pm when Connelly spotted it. However, nobody was reported to have exited the turnout gate between the Your’s arriving and leaving, and Connelly leaving the Marshall Ranch. So the Rambler changing position during this small window of time has no documented evidence to support it was necessitated by anybody leaving the turnout gate. Only Bingo Wesner was reported to have left the turnout gate at 9pm.

"a light colored 1960 Rambler station wagon was parked at the gate. It was parked southwest of where we finally found the car. This discrepancy wasn’t noticed at first. They said that when they arrived there at 9:00 pm a white 4-door hardtop, a ’59 or ’60 Impala, was parked there, and also, a truck coming out of the gate. This coincides with information from Bingo Wesner that when he came out of the gate he saw the same Impala and also saw the red pick-up truck go by."

Bingo Wesner also stated in the police report "he was checking his sheep at approximately 10:00 pm and he observed a white Chevrolet Impala Sedan parked by the south fence of the entrance to the pumping station. He also observed a red Ford pick-up truck with wood side boards in the area."

But the Rambler wasn’t in the turnout at this time, only the Impala.

#1 ‘During his many hours of investigation (Les Lunblad), the graying veteran detective sergeant learned the terrible murders on Lake Herman were the tragic end of a first date for the young couple. They had attended a pre-Christmas concert and chorale at Vallejo’s Hogan High School, where pretty Betty Lou had been a student. The couple had left the school auditorium at 10:00 pm, bidding goodnight to their school chums.’ The next sighting of the couple was at approximately 10.15 pm by Helen Axe and her boyfriend in the Lake Herman Road turnout, which is a 13-15 minute car drive from Hogan High.

#2 ‘At the concert, classmates of Betty Lou noticed the couple sitting side by side in the gymnasium bleachers (retractable seats), holding hands. Nobody remembers seeing them after they left the concert’.

It isn’t impossible that BLJ fainted at some point, and was shot afterwards while she lay on the ground. It would explain the relative accuracy of the shots and them being mainly in the right side of her back.

If we go with the two attacker theory, it can explain the position of the found shells that were where one would expect the attacker’s vehicle to be.

1) David’s car is parked.
2) The attackers arrive.
3) Worried, David turns on the ignition and starts to back out.
4) The attacker from the passenger side of the attacker’s vehicle is the one who is armed, he gets out, fires a shot at the Rambler through the headliner. This explains the casing found where the passenger right-side of the attacker’s vehicle was expected to be.
5) David continues to back out a bit.
6) The Rambler is now pulled out further behind relative to the attacker’s car, so the attacker, moving towards the rear of his vehicle to get to the Rambler shoots again, this time in the rear right window. This explains the second casing found closer to the expected rear of the attacker’s vehicle; he’s walking from the passenger side by going around the rear.
7) David stops pulling away, having been shot at twice and seeing the attacker getting closer, realizing he is likely to be shot if he keeps backing out.
8) By now the second attacker, the driver, has exited as well. The gunner has moved closer to the front to aim at David to coerce him into obeying.
9) Both the driver and gunner are on the right side of the Rambler. David is told to turn off the ignition. Betty is ordered out.
10) The driver grabs Betty and restrains her with his arms. He is pulling her away, possibly intends to sexually assault her.
11) David is told to exit from the same side; this is advantageous to the gunner as it allows him to grab David as he is constrained in his exit from the vehicle.
11) David tries to grab the gun or a scuffle ensues, two stray shots are fired, David is punched in the face or hit in the face with the gun by the gunner.
12) A third shot is fired killing David.
13) Betty, witnessing the execution (possibly as the driver had turned with her due to the scuffle, holding her to face the scene), faints, falls to the ground, leaving her right side facing the gunner.
14) The gunner fires five shots into her from his position and both attackers proceed to leave.

Note the William Cross and his girlfriend’s testimony about being chased by what he referred to as a light-colored Chevy, with two white males on board, around an hour and a half earlier or so, after he had parked there.

The murder might not even have been intended, but could have resulted from the scuffle. Then to leave no evidence they killed the witness. Although firing at the car would have likely forced David to speak out to the police, it is not impossible that those shots were actually also fired during the scuffle, just as the two stray shots and the one which killed David.