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Fred Manalli (from old board)

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traveller1st
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Seagull, Subject: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:02 pm

Fred Manalli was a suspect in at least one of the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders, that of Kim Allen. He quite possibly could have been a suspect in some of the others, too, I just don’t know that for sure. Graysmith mentions him although not by name in his Zodiac books. Manalli is the Santa Rosa Junior College teacher who was killed in a vehicle accident in 1976.

I suppose because the SRHM, at one time, were thought to have been committed by Zodiac that Manalli has come into play as being a possible Zodiac suspect, too. I know Morf and others have wanted to see a picture of Manalli to be able to visually confirm whether or not he looked anything like the Zodiac composite.

I have finally tracked down a picture of the guy! This is from his senior year in college, 1957. Although it’s a rather early picture there are certain features that don’t change significantly in a person’s looks. I think the length of his face, his hairline and the bushyness of his eyebrows tend to rule him out as looking like the Zodiac composite.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:48 pm

Thanks Seagull. I agree with your opinion on his features.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:06 pm

Is he the one on the right?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:20 pm

Yes, he is the one on the right. Both the picture and the written part.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:18 pm

Thanks Seagull, great work as always:)



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:19 pm

Good work Seagull. Certainly some things of interest regarding Manalli.



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:15 pm

I think the length of his face, his hairline and the bushyness of his eyebrows tend to rule him out as looking like the Zodiac composite.

Six foot three is a bit tall for Z too I think. Someone would have noticed, Fouke should have.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:38 pm

Yes, 6’3" is too tall and at 185# he wouldn’t have had a big stomach. Nor does he look a bit Welsh. :lol:

He looks good for murder in Sonoma County but not Zodiac.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:28 pm

I was able to buy a yearbook from Manalli’s senior year in college. It’s the University of Illinois Champaign Urbana 1957 Illio. The picture I posted above is from the yearbook. The blurb beside his picture says that he was in the fraternity Theta Chi. There is a picture of all the fraternity brothers in the yearbook but Manalli is not pictured with them nor is he named as not being in the picture. Don’t know what is up with that, did he quit or maybe get kicked out???

Anyway, I did notice that the fraternity’s logo, that is shown on what appears to be a lapel pin, looks an awful lot like the Zodiac crosshair symbol. I looked the fraternity up online and it seems they are no longer using this particular logo.

The Greek letters for Theta Chi are OX, with a small line in the center of the O. So the lapel pin pictured in the yearbook makes sense. Here is a current page for Theta Chi merchandise with the new logo.

http://www.thetachistore.com/thchigime.html

While I still don’t think that Manalli was Zodiac, I do think that the lapel pin logo used by the fraternity back in the late ’50’s is a worthy find. Perhaps Zodiac got his inspiration for his logo from being in this fraternity?????

Here’s the page in the yearbook.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:34 pm

Interesting stuff Seagull. Please refresh my memory(if it can be refreshed…really tired the last few days :D )….how did he come to the attention of the police again? I know he was mentioned in the book,but I always am acurious how these POI’s come into the limelight.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:50 pm

He came to the attention of the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Office because a drawing or drawings were found among his belongs in his home when it was being cleared out by his ex-wife, Suzanne Carlson, and man named Don Emblen. The drawing/s were said to depict the torture murder of Kim Allen. How they knew that the drawings depicted a murder that occured 4+ years previous is unknown to me, perhaps the drawing was labeled.

Both Suzanne Carlson and Don Emblen are dead now. After the Manalli’s divorced Suzanne married Don Emblen. Don had been Manalli’s boss, so to speak, as he was the head of the department Manalli worked in at Santa Rosa Junior College. Suzanne also taught at the college.

Suzanne died of breast cancer in 1988 and Emblen died in 2009. There is a Sue Carlson scholarship at SRJC for english as a second language students at SRJC.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 6:39 am

Fred Manalli was a suspect in at least one of the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders, that of Kim Allen. He quite possibly could have been a suspect in some of the others, too, I just don’t know that for sure. Graysmith mentions him although not by name in his Zodiac books. Manalli is the Santa Rosa Junior College teacher who was killed in a vehicle accident in 1976.

I suppose because the SRHM, at one time, were thought to have been committed by Zodiac that Manalli has come into play as being a possible Zodiac suspect, too. I know Morf and others have wanted to see a picture of Manalli to be able to visually confirm whether or not he looked anything like the Zodiac composite.

I have finally tracked down a picture of the guy! This is from his senior year in college, 1957. Although it’s a rather early picture there are certain features that don’t change significantly in a person’s looks. I think the length of his face, his hairline and the bushyness of his eyebrows tend to rule him out as looking like the Zodiac composite.

I am bumping this thread up. Trav is looking at the writing of Manalli and has found some things of interest in Manalli’s writing that I agree with. In addition, look at this photo (mouth and chin)…if you throw a set of glasses on him, he does look pretty similar to the Zodiac sketch. Its worth a closer look, IMO. I already know that Seagull thinks he may be a suspect in the SR murders, so if so, maybe he should be more of a suspect in the Z murders? Although, if he was 6ft3, that sounds too tall. He IS THE GUY ON THE RIGHT IN THE PHOTOS,CORRECT?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 9:59 am

Yes, he’s the guy on the right!

I’m going through the letters I have to see if I can nail down some dates of where he was when. He and his wife were firespotters for CDF a few summers in the ’60’s, maybe into the very early ’70’s. If he can definitely be placed too far from the BRS scene, that alone might rule him out. I would think that July 4th would be a big day for firespotters and both Manalli and his wife would be on the job that day.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 11:00 am

Seagull, have you seen or read this book by Manalli????

Manalli, Fred S. Paradise, it’s a nice place [story].Ts. moderate revision. 16p :shock:



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 11:26 am

I have sent for that story, hope to have it soon.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 11:43 am

Regarding where Manalli was the summer of 1969. It looks like Manalli did not work as a firespotter that summer. I have a letter written and postmarked from Santa Rosa July 9, 1969 and the letter does not say anything about working for CDF that summer. Also, there is a letter dated Aug. 27, 1969 where Manalli and his wife are visiting friends in SF. The end of August into September are prime firespotting months so I do not think that the both of them would be in SF at that time if they were working at that job that summer.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 5:47 pm

Ok I’m putting up what I have so far so I don’t have an excitement overload. That’s not sarcasm btw. I don’t know what you will all make of this but I have to say this is kinda freaking me out lol.

I’m getting similarities off everything on this. The letters, the car door, citizen letter, count marco, the desk. That’s how I noticed the stuff about the marco letter I’ve just posted over on the marco thread.

What you are seeing here is only a small part. A very small part, there are a lot of others to show and possible even better examples of these ones once I work my way through all 6 pages.

I spotted what I will call "the mystery Y" for now. It has a very specific construction and I’ve seen it before – I just haven’t found it yet.

BTW if it has a red M beside it it’s Manalli’s handwriting



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 6:06 pm

Wow Traveller! There are some definite similarities in the handwriting. I am very surprised. Can’t wait to see what else you’ve found! Thanks for all your work and to Morf too for having the foresight to have you examine the handwriting.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 6:15 pm

No problem. Thanks Morf for suggesting this one and thanks Seagull for having the stuff to look at. Great work.

This guys writing is weird because I can’t compare it directly due to it being cursive but that doesn’t seem to making a difference which is a bit spooky. The other thing you may notice is that the similarities that appear are mixed in with the cursive as if every so often there’s a little zodiac thing dropped in a three stoke K here, a lowercase g there etc etc. It’s as if they are hidden, or showing through.

I gotta say from something that on the surface didn’t look like anything too hot it sure seems to have some hidden depths.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 6:43 pm

Thanks Trav, great work, will have to digest this. By the way, seems like Manalli has a very unusual or special lower case Z. Is there any lower case Z’s written by Zodiac we can compare?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 6:46 pm

Not directly I don’t think but then there’s always the thing at the bottom of the Bate’s letters that could be interpreted as a combination of the 2 types of Z.

EDIT:

There’s the z in Citizen at the bottom of the Badlands letter. Not a match to Manalli’s but it doesn’t look comfortable drawn to my eye. Actually a lot of zodiac’s z’s don’t. They have a weird curve to them.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 6:51 pm

Manalli also has an unusual way of writing the word CONTACT,seems different from the rest of the words. Also, Manalli seems to have a weird mix of cursive & printed writing.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue May 29, 2012 6:59 pm

Not directly I don’t think but then there’s always the thing at the bottom of the Bate’s letters that could be interpreted as a combination of the 2 types of Z.

EDIT:

There’s the z in Citizen at the bottom of the Badlands letter. Not a match to Manalli’s but it doesn’t look comfortable drawn to my eye. Actually a lot of zodiac’s z’s don’t. They have a weird curve to them.

Regarding the letter Z. My former married name, a few light years ago, had a Z in the middle. It is an awkward letter to write because it is seldom used in everyday writing. The first year it probably looked like a tree in the middle of my name! I did get very fluid with writing that Z though, it just comes with practice.

That might give us a clue that Zodiac didn’t write the letter Z often and it wasn’t in his regular name!

, Subject: Mystery y Wed May 30, 2012 7:34 am

I spotted what I will call "the mystery Y" for now. It has a very specific construction and I’ve seen it before – I just haven’t found it yet.

Trav,

I think you’re referring to the y’s from the desktop poem.

-tbz



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 8:23 am

I spotted what I will call "the mystery Y" for now. It has a very specific construction and I’ve seen it before – I just haven’t found it yet.

Trav,

I think you’re referring to the y’s from the desktop poem.

-tbz

Ironically I wasn’t but after some checking last night it turns out I was except … I wasn’t. I had noted the similarities and would have used the y’s from the desk as a comparison at some point. Except not for the mystery ‘y’ (singular).

This is where the irony comes in. I decided that what I was thinking of probably was in the desk poem – just not as a ‘y’ but as a lower case ‘h’ in two instances.

Here’s a quick comp showing the y’s against the word ‘anyway’ from the desk and the word ‘yeoman’ with the mystery ‘y’ compared against the two instances of the lower case ‘h’ from the desk.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 8:44 am

Seagull, can you post more writing samples here? This is certainly interesting. Can this guy be placed in Riverside at all from October 1966, to April 1967?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 10:57 am

Morf I sent Trav 14 pages of handwriting, I think he has plenty to work with.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 11:16 am

Wow…I’m not seeing similarites at all! Lol Awesome you got a lot of samples though Seagull! :)

FYI–Zodiac never made the U-ish "y" as was written on the desktop. Zodiac always wrote his "y’s" with straight lines.

I will bow out of this thread. :silent:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 2:07 pm

Wow…I’m not seeing similarites at all! Lol Awesome you got a lot of samples though Seagull! :)

FYI–Zodiac never made the U-ish "y" as was written on the desktop. Zodiac always wrote his "y’s" with straight lines.

I will bow out of this thread. :silent:

A valid point Tahoe and usually a deal breaker except manalli does do the zodiac y’s – I thought I might have put them up already but I hadn’t – they are part of the ‘lot’s more to come’ section. That’s what’s interesting about this, I think about the little tells that we think of as zodiac’s in his writing and you think there aren’t any in manalli’s writing cause it’s mostly cursive then some turn up.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 2:12 pm

Some of Manalli’s handwriting.

EDIT: coming soon



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 3:48 pm

I am either dense or need new glasses or both but I don’t see any similarities either.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 4:59 pm

Writing comparisons will always be a matter of opinion here for all of our untrained eyes. But I think once Trav posts all of his comparisons, there similarities will be apparent. The letter formations and many lower case letters and stylings are pretty similar. The letters g,y,and many others. (I dont think the lower case Z of Manalli looks much like Zodiac’s). One problem is, how many printed samples do we have from Manalli? I think most of his samples are cursive,but like Zodiac, he has a hybrid style writing that mixes cursive & printing. Also, some of the spacing looks similar.

I am certainly not saying that Manalli was Zodiac,but I for one want to leave no stones unturned. I would love to find photos of him circa 1969,and also,I would like to know what details Seagull will find in the book PARADISE that Manalli wrote. Maybe yet another coincidence,but for him to choose that title is of interest.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 5:11 pm

…but like Zodiac, he has a hybrid style writing that mixes cursive & printing.

:silent: :?: ….:)



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 7:46 pm

Both Manalli and Z using the same word, and obviously,one of them spells it wrong. Again, notice that Manalli has a mix of printing & cursive, even within the same word. The top one is from Z, and the bottom one from Manalli.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 7:54 pm

This was written by Manalli (sort of reminded me of Zodiac’s ‘little list’ )

Below are more comparisons of Manalli to Zodiac-

The first letter K is from Z, and the second is from Manalli:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 8:39 pm

It gets better. See you picked on the ‘satirical’ bit too Morf.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 8:49 pm

Its very good work Trav and it is some of the closest writing I have seen to Zodiac’s (along with the Riverside student that had similar writing to the desktop). I applaud your efforts. That was my one small stab at a comparison (its not easy work), so I will leave the major high tech stuff like this to you



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 9:06 pm

Something I just noticed in the Citizen card regarding the word WERE. Both times, there is an odd spacing after the W. We should look for that in Manalli’s letters too.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 9:13 pm

Will do there’s more to go yet but that’s my lot for tonight.

It’s like this guy’s writing is inbetween the citizen letter/desk and zodiacs letters. It’s closer to the citizen letter and the desk overall then you hit something like the l/c g’s. Interesting stuff. Have you read the last paragraph on the first page of the typed stuff?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 9:16 pm

Some of his typed words….are these jokes???

"Have you read the last paragraph on the first page of the typed stuff?"

We are on the same page :shock:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed May 30, 2012 9:23 pm

:shock: I know. There’s the last page of the typed stuff as well and the last page of the handwriting signed Anon & Fred, on it he writes comparing a pen to a gun being oiled and a knife being sharpened. The Last page of the typed stuff is a quote talking about victims being burned at the stake.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu May 31, 2012 11:07 am

Both Manalli and Z using the same word, and obviously,one of them spells it wrong. Again, notice that Manalli has a mix of printing & cursive, even within the same word. The top one is from Z, and the bottom one from Manalli.

Where does Zodiac, in authenticated letters, combine cursive and writing? Am I forgetting?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu May 31, 2012 12:12 pm

Both Manalli and Z using the same word, and obviously,one of them spells it wrong. Again, notice that Manalli has a mix of printing & cursive, even within the same word. The top one is from Z, and the bottom one from Manalli.

Where does Zodiac, in authenticated letters, combine cursive and writing? Am I forgetting?

Writing experts mentioned that his lower case d(laying on its side practiacally) is a cursive d.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu May 31, 2012 1:04 pm

Comparing against the desk.

Similarities in lower case g’s, double ll’s (slight curve), lower case e with follow-through stroke. Manalli’s writing when compared to something else similar seems to be a mirror image, due to the zodiac sources are mostly italicised.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu May 31, 2012 1:49 pm

The closest thing I see between Manalli & the Desktop writing,is the way that they both bend their lower case l’s.

Placing Manalli in Riverside 66-67 would be huge in my opinion. Graysmith,using whatever sources he had, stated that Manalli was there at some point. Unfortunately, we all know that Graysmith made some mistakes.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu May 31, 2012 3:45 pm

In all the pages of letters I have I did not see that Manalli was in the Riverside area. It doesn’t mean he didn’t visit there at some point, of course. I believe that Graysmith said he taught down there but the letters pretty well say where Manalli worked and no place in southern California was mentioned.

Manalli taught at San Quentin Prison, I think that if Graysmith knew that he would have said so. That’s one of the things that intrigues me about him. You couldn’t ask for a better place to learn some of the tricks of the murder trade from the professionals.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu May 31, 2012 6:13 pm

Some more. One of the Riverside envelopes compared to both Manalli’s writing and the desktop poem. Red M= Manalli, DT= desktop.

Note the S’s from the desk – very, very close. I would say that a serious link between those letters and the poem.

Manalli’s 2 here is looped as is the 2 on the envelope. Manalli also does the Zodiac style 2.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:35 pm

Umm Guys…… I’m sorry I haven’t marked very clearly on this what happening but lets play a game. See if you can spot manalli’s handwriting in there. I just wanted you all to see this first. Also, to be honest I was starting to get confused and thought right- that’s enough for now lets post this so far.

EDIT: I’m starting to think this letter produced in a mirror or a few mirrors.

EDIT: there’s lots more as well, the s’s, the k’s, the y’s. I could fill the page again with all of these but I couldn’t fit then on.

EDIT: ADDED the date and a few more words

EDIT: Sorry – Here’s a close up look at the symmetry and mirror of those two letters compared to their counterparts.



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:27 am

Interesting that he was a member of the men’s glee club at college.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:45 am

Trav, I am sold. Its very close in my opinion, alot of similarities.

One more thing, you may want to take a lok at. On the Bates had to die letters, everybody says the little symbol at the bottom looks like a Z. Compare it to Manalli’s lower case Z, I think its pretty close



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:14 am

More and more bizarre. This is only still on the surface stuff. Take a look at the bottom left of the Cheri Jo Bates letter where I have overlaid in red to show how strokes and so on line up. Well I can do that with the other stuff too, including the car door. There’s just loads of things that line up and it’s like adding pieces to puzzle. As I’m moving words around on pages they keep lining up with things I’m moving them over even if they aren’t the same letters. I didn’t have a really close look at the symbol on the Bates letter because, as you can see, I got distracted by other things.

So here’s the citizen letter with more stuff on it, one of the bates letters and the car door (the m’s are for Manalli, as usual.



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:47 am

Manelli’s writing slants the opposite way from Zodiac.
Also, crossing over of the number 4 Zodiac didn’t do that.
crossing over of the little e as well.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:26 pm

Manelli’s writing slants the opposite way from Zodiac.
Also, crossing over of the number 4 Zodiac didn’t do that.
crossing over of the little e as well.

That’s only ONE 4 from Manalli VS ONE 4 of Zodiac’s. We need multiple from both to compare. As far as slants, all you need to do is turn your arm or the paper at an odd writing angle to distort that. Too many similarities going for me to ignore.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:35 pm

This one does it for me….

Half way down, on the right side, Zodiac’s writing of the word ‘THIS’ compared side by side to Manalli’s writing of the word ‘HIS’, they are basically a match, and even have the same spacing.

Thanks to Seagull, we have a good amount of writing from Manalli. Seagull, was this all of the stuff on file in that box at the university? I dont want to get it if it is the stuff you already have. Also, any luck with the PARADISE book by Manalli?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:54 pm

Trav, is it just me, or does Manalli seem to be mostly writing in cursive in his late Aug 69 letter,compared to the writing prior to that date when he wrote alot more printed writing?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:04 pm

there actually is a zodiac 4 that crosses over I think but I can’t find it. I have it on my list of his numbers right at the bottom, there’s only 1 but as I said I can’t find where I found it from. Bear in mind that if Manalli can be linked to the bates letters then there’s proof in those that he used 2 different types of 4 one that does cross over and one that doesn’t. Also out of 8 – 10 pages of handwriting that I have Manalli only uses one 4. There’s about another 140 pages or so I think.

As Morf says there’s too many similarities here to just ignore. The form and flow of the letters (mirrored or not). Don’t forget not all of zodiacs writing was slanted either.

Basically there’s a lot going here and I will keep going and finding more similarities but beyond that I could only suggest that someone qualified take a look at this guys writing. I could argue points all day on this but it wouldn’t be helpful because at this stage I need clarification and guidance about this stuff that I can’t answer myself. I’m seeing something in this but is it important or even real. Can’t say, don’t know.

Gut instinct is that there is something here. Why are there so many similarities across so many different pieces of zodiac material (confirmed and other). Is this normal? Again I don’t know.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:05 pm

Trav, is it just me, or does Manalli seem to be mostly writing in cursive in his late Aug 69 letter,compared to the writing prior to that date when he wrote alot more printed writing?

Yes I think so. There is a difference and I would say that his writing has changed over the years. I had noted it and my friend pointed out the same thing.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:12 pm

Thanks to Seagull, we have a good amount of writing from Manalli. Seagull, was this all of the stuff on file in that box at the university? I dont want to get it if it is the stuff you already have. Also, any luck with the PARADISE book by Manalli?

I got all the stuff I could possibly get from the university. Manalli’s things were in multiple boxes and I’m pretty darn sure I found everything available.

Getting the Paradise book, actually a short story in a university magazine, will take time. They want $$ which can only be done by the USPS. As the saying goes, "It’s in the mail."



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:20 pm

what was his middle name btw? Starts with an S.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:25 pm

Middle name of Steven.

DOB March 7, 1935
DOD Aug. 25, 1976



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:32 pm

Trav, not to give you too much homework, but you also may want to look at the code key sent to Vallejo PD after the first cipher from Zodiac:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … pd-8-10-69
Alot of people think Zodiac likely mailed the key to Vallejo PD, so this writing may be of interest to us



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:55 pm

Manelli’s writing slants the opposite way from Zodiac.
Also, crossing over of the number 4 Zodiac didn’t do that.
crossing over of the little e as well.

I spoke once to a handwriting analyst and she said that one of the most common techniques people use to disguise their handwriting is to slope it one way or another. The slant of the writing is not usually considered a strong factor in analysis for that reason. A corollary to that – a handwriting disguised by a slant only, doesn’t change the actual formation of the letters.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:56 pm

This one was fun. You can see how Manalli’s writing fits over zodiacs and you can move it around and it still slots into space lining up with what’s underneath with letters and spaces and certain angles matching up.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:34 pm

Six foot three is a bit tall for Z too I think. Someone would have noticed, Fouke should have.

There is a DOJ statement that says Fouke once put Zodiac’s height as tall as six-foot-two. Bryan Hartnell did the same.

The sexual component to Manalli’s crimes makes me iffy, and his physical appearance doesn’t seem heavyset enough, but everything else looks solid, particularly the military background and the handwriting. Also, the Z-like symbol at the end of each ‘Bates had to die’ letter does kind of look like an ‘m’ crossed with a ‘z’. Good work, guys; let’s see what else we can dig up.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:17 pm

It never ends. lol.

So here we have the Exorcist Letter comparied to Manalli. Even some of the cursive seems to fit. Note the gap in the word something in both cases. There is another example in Manalli’s of the word something that’s the same.

As for the rest. It’s that weird mirror image thing again.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:13 am

This is really kind of amazing, Trav! I wonder, if this guy wrote the Desktop Poem, maybe he purposefully put his name in it: if red



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:49 am

I am going to check with my NAPA contact and ask him flat out if he can look up Manalli and see if he was ever ‘officially’ ruled out as a suspect via prints, etc. Normally, police can’t tell you that,but I am hoping since I can prove he is deceased, that they might simply tell me.

In the meantime Trav, great work as always….the similarities continue :shock:



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:48 am

Got any 2s?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:54 am

Got any 2s?

Yes, and Manalli does them in both Z-like 2’s as Zodiac did normally and the 2’s with a curl at the top



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:35 pm

Ok…I can’t keep my mouth zipped. :lol:

:?: :scratch:

You guys really think this looks alike?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:43 pm

This is really kind of amazing, Trav! I wonder, if this guy wrote the Desktop Poem, maybe he purposefully put his name in it: if red

Hehehe nice thinking. I hadn’t noticed that again this time round but I think it noticed the last time I was comparing the desk to the citizen letter and wondered if there was anyone called fred. Funny thing is that even if it is that guy – I think that’s probably just a weird coincidence but you never know.

I noticed something else whilst working on the Exorcist letter. I could be wrong but I don’t Zodiac spelled satirical wrong, I mean he did but not by accident. I think he swapped the i from satirical with the e from comedy probably just because he could due to them being phonetically similar. A little fun with words. If that’s already been noted, fair enough but it’s the first time I’ve spotted it.

Yup Bentley as morph said we’ve got the 2’s various types of. There’s quite a few doubles in this guys stuff ie variations of certain characters one of which matches zodiac. Then there’s the g’s I think there’s 3 of those and they match all 3 variation used by zodiac.

There’s not just the similarities in letterforms, it’s the spacing and all that stuff. Take the word something for instance. I could probably have found a better match in Manalli’s writing but since there’s a fair bit to hunt through I just grabbed an example when I saw it and intend to replace it if I found a less cursive one. Turns out I didn’t need to, it just slots right in there, cursive or not and matches up visually for spacing. The fact that I’m getting what I see as matches using cursive vs print is interesting.

Despite being the person finding this stuff I’m still not sure what to make of it. A real document examiner might look at this and say it’s 99% but look here, this little thingy here rules it out as a complete match. Do lot’s of continuing little OMG moments add up to a smoking gun eventually, probably not, maybe you just end up with something gun shaped until you can make it smoke.

If this all turns out to be nothing more than coincidence then at least we can all see just how close writing can be and still not be a match. A benchmark of sorts. I wan’t to make it clear that until we know differently, everything I’ve found is a similarity and not a match but I will sometimes call it a match cause it’s quicker to type lol.

Please excuse the long posts. I’ve been letting the images do the talking and as such I’m trying to convey now the sense of similarity of getting of this stuff. I could, in the examples shown so far ,have gone much further. I could probably fill those pages with matches, letter by letter, punctuation by punctuation but it becomes very hard to see what’s what and so on each one I’ve stopped short of doing that so as to cleanly show some similarities.

It should be logically obvious by now that if I’m getting similarities of the stuff I have so far then there’s lots, lots more that can be found. There’s similarities to the Bates letters, I’ve already seen more stuff that might pair up to those. If there’s similarities to the Exorcist letter and one of zodiac’s first letters then it’s makes sense that there will be more similarities throughout the zodiac stuff.

Ok I’m off to look at that key code thing now.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:59 pm

Ok…I can’t keep my mouth zipped. :lol:

:?: :scratch:

You guys really think this looks alike?

I do Tahoe. I know you can’t compare cursive to printing but look at the spacing of the letters and the gaps. The construction of the g on something. As I said it’s not just this one example, look back and see how Mananlli has a variation on the g to match all of variations shown throughout the bates and zodiac stuff. He also has the same thing happening with the y,s and the k’s and the 2’s , the w’s (cursive and print) both examples of rounded and sharp w’s. There’s probably more and to reiterate these matches are all from Manalli’s variations not his norm which is also there in his writing naturally, and the variations aren’t one-off’s they are re-occurring. So it’s not just a case of, oh that looks similar, there’s also the fact that these matches are there at all in something you wouldn’t expect – ie’ mostly cursive.

Also as pointed out this is all from only 8-10 pages of Manalli’s writing.

None of this of course has to mean anything. This guy might not have been within a hundred miles of the zodiac stuff when it was written but surely you must concede that there are similarities in form and style and use of variations of certain letters.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:56 pm

Ok got distracted. Here’s Manalli’s numbers compared to Zodiac’s.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:01 pm

Ok…I can’t keep my mouth zipped. :lol:

:?: :scratch:

You guys really think this looks alike?

Tahoe, the sample here Trav is showing of Manalli’s is cursive against printed Zodiac writing. In this instance, Trav is showing that Manalli & Zodiac BOTH write the word ‘something’ like ‘SOME THING’.

Tahoe, even if you discount the writing, does this guy not even interest you in the least when he discusses doing acts violence & attacks, and breaking the law "which is nothing new" to free up his writer’s block?



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:03 pm

…surely you must concede that there are similarities in form and style and use of variations of certain letters.

Just not enough for me. The majority of it isn’t even close.

As discussed Zodiac never used cursive–connecting his letters. You think ONCE that would have slipped through. Nope. Some gaps, etc….eh.

I’ll REALLY not say anymore now. :cheers: :lol:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:45 pm

I hear ya Tahoe. It’s not enough for me either. I’m just trying to see if this too good to be true. All I can say is there’s similarities here on many levels that are becoming more intriguing.

Here’s a complete letter from Manalli. Is’t a short half page one from 1969. I have just picked it at random and like wise picked the Stine letter at random mostly because it’s completely real given the shirt piece and all.

The first image shows Manalli’s writing over laid but offset so you can see both sets of writing.

The second image shows them on top of each other. I have actually lined up the word "frunt2 from frunt tires on the zodiac letter with the word friends from Manalli’s. To be honest I mistook them for the same word when I was overlaying which is why I picked those. Look what happens to everything else once that’s done. Lines end in similar places, some words combine to create new words because the cursive in Manalli’s lines up and fills in the non cursive blanks in Zodiac’s writing. Look at the flow of the lines – they are practically identical. They follow the same line from left to right sloping and meandering and they leave the correct line spacing.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:45 pm

Here’s a fun little project, guess which numbers are Zodiac’s writing & which ones are Manalli’s….

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

These ones above may be too easy for the reason I will mention after I see a guess or two.

#10

#11



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:54 pm

I think it would be wise not to limit our investigation of Manalli to handwriting analysis alone. What else can we dig up on this guy to tie him to the Zodiac murders?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:56 pm

I think it would be wise not to limit our investigation of Manalli to handwriting analysis alone. What else can we dig up on this guy to tie him to the Zodiac murders?

I agree completely. Let’s start with this stuff and see if there is any truth to these statements by Manalli:


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:40 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:09 pm

Somehow, some way, Manalli found himself mentioned in a book about the Zodiac. Somehow, some way, he was a POI in another bay area case(s). His writing shows many similarities in formation, spacing, etc to Zodiac’s. Supposedly Manalli was ruled out of the Z case via prints as I recall. If thats true, then that’s great. But is it true? Graysmith wrote that Manalli taught in the Riverside area. That sounds powerful on the surface, but where did Graysmith get this from, and is it true? I think Seagull is of the opinion that Manalli may make a good suspect in another bay area case(s), and that he likely was not Zodiac. I am not sure if Seagull feels any different about Manalli after the writing samples, but I would like to hear her overall opinion of Manalli as a Z suspect and as a suspect in any other Bay area cases. I still think it is interesting that Manalli wrote a story called PARADISE, even if it is another Zyncronicty.

One thing fits,he died in 1976, and there was never another confirmed Z letter after 74. Personally, I dont have any reason to want Manalli to be Zodiac, I still have a couple fave suspects of my own, but the writing comparisons are jumping out at me. And one thing I wanted to mention was that the writing comparisons we have seen of Manalli’s are in ink pen vs. Zodiac’s which are in felt tip, and I think that might change Zodiac’s true writing just enough. If he wrote all of his letters in ink pen, perhaps they would be more of a match to the samples we see from Manalli. By the way, somebody posted earlier in this thread that Fouke stated that Zodiac may have been about 6ft2. Anybody have this in writing anyplace?



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 pm

Not that my opinion matters here but I am just not seeing connections between the two writings.

I also don’t see a resemblance of the composite to the class photo of Manalli. The composite is very well done so I’m assuming it is at least partially accurate.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:16 pm

Not that my opinion matters here but I am just not seeing connections between the two writings.

I also don’t see a resemblance of the composite to the class photo of Manalli. The composite is very well done so I’m assuming it is at least partially accurate.

The only pic we see of him is from 1957,12 years before the Z sketch and with no glasses. Not a real good pic to use for comparison purposes, but in just looking at the chin, jaw, & lips, I see some similarity. I dfor one would like to know what Manalli looked like in 69, and if he ever wore glasses around that time.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:19 pm

The only reason Manalli found his way into Graysmith’s Zodiac books was because Graysmith wanted him to be Allen’s accomplice. That being said, I seriously doubt Manalli was ever investigated as a Zodiac suspect, much less cleared. Santa Rosa? Yes. But Zodiac? Nope, not unless I see evidence that they ran his prints.

It was me who posted the six-foot-two thing, morf. Got it from Jake’s article; his source is Mel Nicolai of the DOJ:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ac/14.html

I just realized that Manalli could potentially resemble the Napa composite.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:22 pm

The only reason Manalli found his way into Graysmith’s Zodiac books was because Graysmith wanted him to be Allen’s accomplice. That being said, I seriously doubt Manalli was ever investigated as a Zodiac suspect, much less cleared. Santa Rosa? Yes. But Zodiac? Nope, not unless I see evidence that they ran his prints.

It was me who posted the six-foot-two thing, morf. Got it from Jake’s article; his source is Mel Nicolai of the DOJ:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ac/14.html

I just realized that Manalli could potentially resemble the Napa composite.

Thanks for that.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:28 pm

Not that my opinion matters here but I am just not seeing connections between the two writings.

I also don’t see a resemblance of the composite to the class photo of Manalli. The composite is very well done so I’m assuming it is at least partially accurate.

The only pic we see of him is from 1957,12 years before the Z sketch and with no glasses. Not a real good pic to use for comparison purposes, but in just looking at the chin, jaw, & lips, I see some similarity. I dfor one would like to know what Manalli looked like in 69, and if he ever wore glasses around that time.

Somebody that wishes to remain nameless sent me this pic(as a joke?? or serious??)and asked if Manalli could be the mystery guy seen with Darlene. At first I simply chuckled,but the mystery guy does have a similar chin/lips to both the Z sketch & to Manalli. Still in all, I would guess NO about the mystery guy being Manalli. I am trying to picture him with longer hair & glasses,but his eyebrows look bushier. Yeah, I gotta say no way. in my opinion.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:38 pm

Just to add this as I’ve just found it.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:37 pm

I think it would be wise not to limit our investigation of Manalli to handwriting analysis alone. What else can we dig up on this guy to tie him to the Zodiac murders?

Totally agree and I’m worn out finding similarities, which ultimately might turn out to be just that and nothing more. :)



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:03 pm

Ummm me again.

So I noticed this guy used a James Joyce quote in his typed material as a reference I think to his own potential mental state.

Here is the line.

End here. Us then. Finn, again! Take. Bussoftlhee, mememormee! Till thousandsthee. Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs. (628.13 to 3.3)

It’s from Finnegan’s Wake. Here’s some interesting facts about how that was written.

Language and style

""riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs."—
The opening line of Finnegans Wake, which continues from the book’s unfinished closing line[168]"

Joyce invented a unique polyglot-language or idioglossia solely for the purpose of this work. This language is composed of composite words from some sixty to seventy world languages,[169] combined to form puns, or portmanteau words and phrases intended to convey several layers of meaning at once.

Sound like familiar behaviour to anyone? Seeing all those doubles caught my attention I had a look and I knew I’d find it. And I did.

"the chrism for the christmass" from Finnegan’s Wake.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:09 pm

So CHRISTMASS is derived from Joyce’s work?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Would seem to be plausible source. Whether there are other printed uses of it I couldn’t say but since this guy’s own words led me to joyce and there it was. There’s also the switching of the i and the e in the Excorcist letter that seems to follow this Joyce method employed for Finnegan’s Wake.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:01 pm

The James Joyce Finnegan’s Wake deal is interesting in itself. Whether or not Manalli is the Zodiac it does sound like the use of this polyglot-language in Joyce’s work may have influenced Zodiac. You have made a very good connection, Traveller!

I do think that Zodiac was smarter than average, well read and exposed to the arts but still had a feral streak in him.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:24 pm

Just to add this as I’ve just found it.

Another good find. Very odd spacing, I would think only a small portion of the population would write this word in this fashion, Manalli & Z have yet another thing in common.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:31 pm

The James Joyce Finnegan’s Wake deal is interesting in itself. Whether or not Manalli is the Zodiac it does sound like the use of this polyglot-language in Joyce’s work may have influenced Zodiac. You have made a very good connection, Traveller!

I do think that Zodiac was smarter than average, well read and exposed to the arts but still had a feral streak in him.

Zodiac was pretty fond of the word ‘SHALL‘. Finnegan’s wake uses that word 140 times by my count.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:52 pm

A possible message from Zodiac, found floating in a bottle, was dated FEB 2…Joyce’s Birthday…
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … n-a-bottle

And check this out:
"Finnegans Wake is based on the structure of the zodiac, the zodiac signs being derived from the nature of numbers and a corresponding geometric sequence"
here- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Finnegans-Wake/

More on Joyce:
http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/joyc … ities.html



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:55 pm

Some more from Finnegan’s Wake.

"took up a jiminy and all the lilipath ways to Woeman’s"

leaden be light, lather be dry and it be drownd

Six thirteens at Blanche de Blanche’s of 3 Behind Street and 2 Turnagain Lane. Awabeg is my callby, Magnus here’s my Max,
Wonder One’s my cipher and Seven Sisters is my nighbrood



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:22 pm

James Joyce also wrote something called..’Ulysses’.

Here is an excerpt:
"On its co-operative dial glow the twelve signs of the zodiac"



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:38 pm

Some more from Finnegan’s Wake.

"took up a jiminy and all the lilipath ways to Woeman’s"

leaden be light, lather be dry and it be drownd

Six thirteens at Blanche de Blanche’s of 3 Behind Street and 2 Turnagain Lane. Awabeg is my callby, Magnus here’s my Max,
Wonder One’s my cipher and Seven Sisters is my nighbrood

WOW that’s good stuff :shock: !



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:39 pm

Nice I was wondering about his other works. Someone might want to check out Antonin Artaud too as Mananlli quotes him as well. Seems to be an off the wall poet type with occult interests.

Here’s the quote. Manalli said it made him cry and he might hang it on his wall. So I guess he was quite taken by it lol.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:47 pm

More from Finnegans Wake

for Jaun, by the way, was by the way of becoming

O, by the way, yes,another thing occurs to me.

(Correspondents, by the way, will keep on asking me what is the correct garnish to serve drisheens with. Tansy Sauce. Enough)

plain English for a married lady misled heaps by the way,

very pure nondescript, by the way, sometimes a palmtailed otter

Bushmillah ! Do you think for a moment? Yes, by the way. How very necessarily true! Give me fair play. When?

EDIT: more

just as every hazzy hates to having a hazbane in her noze.

was billowing across the wide expanse of our greatest park (note – there’s 3 other instances of the word billow – nothing for billowy). There are several instances of willowy though.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:35 am

The James Joyce Finnegan’s Wake deal is interesting in itself. Whether or not Manalli is the Zodiac it does sound like the use of this polyglot-language in Joyce’s work may have influenced Zodiac. You have made a very good connection, Traveller!

I do think that Zodiac was smarter than average, well read and exposed to the arts but still had a feral streak in him.

I agree. Even if nothing else comes of it regarding Manalli, it’s rewarding to stumble on little things like this as far as Zodiac himself is concerned. Another little avenue of exploration for answers.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:58 am

And check this out:
"Finnegans Wake is based on the structure of the zodiac, the zodiac signs being derived from the nature of numbers and a corresponding geometric sequence"

l

:affraid: Wow, I only just read that. Nice find.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:38 am

More cipher connections this time.

The Tragic Story of J.F. Byrne

One of the classic true stories in the history of cryptographic invention is that of J. F. Byrne.

Mr. Byrne was a close friend and fellow student (at Dublin) of James Joyce. In his work "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" Joyce modeled his character "Cranley" after Byrne.

In 1918 Byrne devised a code system that he thought amazingly simple and yet unbreakable. The "machine" used to produce his cipher (which he called his "Chaocipher") required nothing more than a cigar box and a few odds and ends.

In writing about his invention, Byrne states:

"When I first set out to discover a system for concocting an indecipherable cipher, I had it clearly in mind that such a system would and should be universally available, I envisioned, for instance, the utilization of my method and machine by business men for business communications, and by brotherhoods and social and religious institutions. I believe that my method and machine would be an invaluable asset to big religions institutions, as for example the Catholic Church with its world-wide ramifications. I had, and still have in mind, the universal use of my machine and method by husband, wife, or lover. My machine would be on hire, as typewriter machines now are, in hotels, steamships, and, maybe even on trains and airlines, available for anyone anywhere and at any time. And I believe, too, the time will come—and come soon—when my system will be used in the publication of pamphlets and books written in cipher with will be unreadable except by those who are specially initiated."

Unfortunately, no one of importance took his machine seriously. He demonstrated it to the head cryptanalysts of the US Signal Corps, but was rejected.

His system was also rejected by the State Department, the Department of the Navy, and AT&T.

Byrne did not, however, give up. He wrote and published a small booklet in which he enciphered known texts in his Chaocipher, and defied the world to break it. Later Byrne published his autobiography, in which he included a lengthy message in his Chaocipher. He offered to pay $5000 to anyone who could correctly break his cipher. He sent copies to the American Cryptogram Association, the New York Cipher Society, and to Norbert Wiener (father of cybernetics), and to other believers in the capabilities of the electronic calculating machines.

Unfortunately, no one ever claimed the prize, and Byrne died a few years later, taking his secret to the grave.

If an autobiography detailing the author’s memories of James Joyce seems like a strange place to find an uncracked cipher, that’s because it is. J.F. Byrne inserted his cryptosystem challenge into the book “Silent Years”, offering $5,000 to whoever solved it. At least three people know how Byrne’s Chaocipher – a machine small enough to fit into a cigar box used to encrypt the message – actually works, but no one has ever solved the code.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:59 am

This has been solved BTW since 2010.

In May 2010 the Byrne family donated all Chaocipher-related papers and artifacts[3] to the National Cryptologic Museum in Ft. Meade, Maryland, USA. This led to the disclosure of the Chaocipher algorithm.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaocipher

Here’s a detailed PDF of how it works.

http://www.mountainvistasoft.com/chaoci … orithm.pdf

and some more – whole site this time.

http://www.mountainvistasoft.com/chaocipher/

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:30 am

Interesting stuff!

Sound like familiar behaviour to anyone? Seeing all those doubles caught my attention I had a look and I knew I’d find it. And I did.

"the chrism for the christmass" from Finnegan’s Wake.

I’ve been doing some corpus-oriented experiments recently (processing large collections of text) and, discounting all the spellings of "Christmas" as "Christmasse" (a common, archaic variation), here are the results of searching about 30,000 books for text that includes "Christmass":

Title: John Smith, U.S.A. (1905)
Author: Eugene Field
12696.txt: That was vouchsafed that Christmass tide

Title: Robert Kerr’s General History and Collection of Voyages and Travels, Volume 18
Historical Sketch of the Progress of Discovery, Navigation, and
Commerce, from the Earliest Records to the Beginning of the Nineteenth
Century, By William Stevenson (1824)
Author: William Stevenson
13606-8.txt:Christmass Harbour, productions and animals, xv. 241.

Title: Curiosities of Literature, Vol. II (of 3)
Edited, With Memoir And Notes, By His Son, The Earl Of Beaconsfield
Author: Isaac Disraeli
16350-0.txt:Amidst "the grand Christmass," a personage of no small importance was

Title: Col fuoco non si scherza (1901)
Author: Emilio De Marchi
19059-8.txt:bei Christmass illustrati che uscissero a Londra: e cos? tra una

Title: A Righte Merrie Christmasse
The Story of Christ-Tide (1894)
Author: John Ashton
19979-8.txt:"The Queen intendeth to make a mask this Christmass, to which my lady
19979-8.txt:this Christmass."
19979-8.txt:for disport of Christmass to the people, was torne up and cast down by
19979-8.txt:"The Cupboard of Plate is to remain in the Hall on _Christmass_ day,
19979-8.txt:_Christmass_ day, and other days, as, afterwards, is shewed: touching
19979-8.txt:_grand Christmass_, a solempn consultation was held at their
19979-8.txt:_Christmass_ day.
19979-8.txt:Christmass_, then the two youngest Butlers must light two Torches, and
19979-8.txt:Supper, during the twelve days of Christmass. The antientest Master of
19979-8.txt:[Sidenote: _Christmass day._]
19979-8.txt:"At Dinner, the Butler appointed for the _grand Christmass_, is to see
19979-8.txt:to be observed in all things, during the time of Christmass. The like
19979-8.txt:"The Butler appointed for Christmass is to see the Tables covered, and
19979-8.txt:Christmass day, both the first and second Course to the highest
19979-8.txt:on Christmass Eve.
19979-8.txt:_Christmass_ makes a famous Pye, which they call _Christmass_ Pye: It

Title: Christmas: Its Origin and Associations
Together with Its Historical Events and Festive Celebrations During Nineteen Centuries (1902)
Author: William Francis Dawson
22042-8.txt:Christmass, Christmes. Christmas has also been called _No?l_ or
22042-8.txt:on "Christmass-daye," at this period, are referred to in the
22042-8.txt:And the play was performed at this "Grand Christmass" kept by the

The full quote there is interesting:

"Christmas" (pronounced Kris’mas) signifies "Christ’s Mass," meaning
the festival of the Nativity of Christ, and the word has been
variously spelt at different periods. The following are obsolete forms
of it found in old English writings: Crystmasse, Cristmes, Cristmas,
Crestenmes, Crestenmas, Cristemes, Cristynmes, Crismas, Kyrsomas,
Xtemas, Cristesmesse, Cristemasse, Crystenmas, Crystynmas, Chrystmas,
Chrystemes, Chrystemasse, Chrystymesse, Cristenmas, Christenmas,
Christmass, Christmes.

Title: The Sundering Flood (1914)
Author: William Morris
25547.txt:hear the Christmass in the church of Allhallows, which had been

Title: A Little Book of Profitable Tales (1901)
Author: Eugene Field
8abpt10.txt:+THE DIVELL’S CHRISTMASS+



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:41 am

Excellent stuff Dave,

I had seen the spelling ‘Cristmasse’ on my brief nosying but those others are good solid finds. Even more references…yay lol.

EDIT: a nice little visual of the byrne cipher construction thingy (wheel)

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/cs48 … haocipher/

EDIT: My brain’s catching up I think. So does your research suggest a reasonably low (so far) to read that word in. Also looking at the Quote you highlighted, y and i or i and y are/were reasonably interchangeable. As in Friday or Fryday.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:32 pm

Ok I took a look at the car door again and intended to match letter for letter but noticed this by accident. I’ve included the Zodiac f vs Manalli’s f as well cause I like it lol.

The thing I noticed and have tried to show here is once again how a random piece of Manalli’s text can be overlaid on zodiac stuff and the formas, spacing and angles match. I’ve picked the word the and copied and pasted it onto the car door at 20%. Look carefully at how it transects the zodiacs writing and matches up with is in angles and curves that do cross, sometimes a few times per letter or number. Also how the letters of the word the line up with subsequent letters, numbers or line up with other lines as well.

There’s loads more but I was running out of space and it was becoming hard to see lol.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:33 pm

I heard from NAPA today, and was surprised that they knew of Manalli right away. The Detective also told me that although he ‘may’ have been ruled out in some fashion as a Zodiac suspect, he couldnt verify that. He also said that he was aware of details about Manalli from "the Graysmith book, and the various message boards"…which is pretty cool since it shows that the investigators actually check out various Zodiac sites & forums.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:43 pm

Wow, that’s kind of exciting to hear! I hope they realize that Graysmith doesn’t always have things quite right.

Did you get a sense that they might have read the most recent stuff that Traveller has been posting? I think the James Joyce writings with the parallels to Zodiac writings is super.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:17 pm

Wow, that’s kind of exciting to hear! I hope they realize that Graysmith doesn’t always have things quite right.

Did you get a sense that they might have read the most recent stuff that Traveller has been posting? I think the James Joyce writings with the parallels to Zodiac writings is super.

We talked about the Joyce stuff, the same misspellings etc,and he even said that when Trav completed all of his side by side comparisons, he would be happy to look them over. So we will see where it goes. Even if Manalli isnt Z, he may have given us a big clue with the Joyce stuff.

The same misspellings from Z that we see in Joyce’s book, CHRISTMASS,WOEMAN,DROWNDING,etc,and the use of the word SHALL 140 times in the story, seems like Zodiac may have soaked it all up.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:34 am

Anyone like ALFRED E. NEUMAN? This would be a solution for the Unsolved 13 if you let N be both F as in Fred and M as in Manalli.

Morf wrote:
Even if Manalli isnt Z, he may have given us a big clue with the Joyce stuff.

Indeed, this is getting really, really interesting!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:46 am

More stuff. Some you have seen but there’s been more work done on them and some you haven’t seen. There are others to come.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:29 pm

I’m looking at few things at once and I keep finding things because all these things seem to overlap. Another once from Finnegans Wake

A bone, a pebble, a ramskin; chip them,
chap them, cut them up allways;

taken in giving the saloot, band your hands going in, bind your heads coming out, and remoltked to
herselp in her serf’s alown, a weerpovy willowy dreevy drawly and the patter of
so familiars, farabroads and behomeans, as she shure sknows, boof for a booby,
boo:

Schottenly there was a hellfire club kicked out through the wasistas of
Thereswhere.

And the chicks picked their teeths and the dombkey he begay began. You can ask
your ass if he believes it.

And so like that former son of a kish who went up
and out to found his farmer’s ashes we come down home gently on our own
turnedabout asses to meet Margareen.

Hello! Tittit! Tell your title?

he plunged both of his newly anointed hands

Arise, Land-under-Wave!

Not true what chronicles is bringing his portemanteau priamed full potato wards.

Tip. And it is surely a lesser ignorance to write a word with every consonant too few than to add all too many. The end?
Say it with missiles then and thus arabesque the page. You have your cup of scalding Souchong, your taper’s waxen drop,
your cat’s paw, the clove or coffinnail you chewed or champed as you worded it, your lark in clear air. So why, pray, sign anything
as long as every word, letter, penstroke, paperspace is a perfect signature of its own?

tell that old frankay boyuk to bellows upthe tombucky in his tumtum argan and give us a gust of his gushy old. Goof!

Note
his sleek hair, so elegant, tableau vivant. He vows her to be his own honeylamb,
swears they will be papa pals, by Sam, and share good times way down west in a
guaranteed happy lovenest when May moon she shines and they twit twinkle all the
night, combing the comet’s tail up right and shooting popguns at the stars.

that royal pair in
their palace of quicken boughs hight The Goat ant Compasses (‘phone number
17:69, if you want to know 4)

Like pudging a spoon fist of sugans into a sotspot of choucolout. the
virtuoser prays, olorum What the D.V. would I to that for? That’s a goosey’s
ganswer you’re for giving me, he is told, what the Deva would you do that for? 1
Now, sknow royol road to Puddlin, take your mut for a first beginning, big to
bog, back to bach. Anny liffle mud which cometh out of Mam will doob, I guess.
A.I. Amnium instar. And to find a locus for an alp get a howlth on her bayrings
as a prisme O and for a second O unbox your compasses. I cain but are you able?
Amicably nod. Gu it! So let’s seth off betwain us. Prompty? Mux your pistany at
a point of the coastmap to be called a but pronounced olfa
. There’s the isle of
Mun, ah! O! Tis just. Bene! Now, whole in applepine odrer

I see now. We move in the beast circuls. Grimbarb and pancercrucer! You took
the words out of my mouth. A child’s dread for a dragon vicefather. Hillcloud
encompass us!

Bully, his Ballade Imaginaire which was to be dubbed Wine, Woman and Waterclocks, or How a
Guy Finks and Fawkes When He Is Going Batty, by Maistre Sheames de la Plume,
some most dreadful stuff in a murderous mirrorhand)



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:40 pm

Trav, first off, this is really terrific work. One thing I would mention regarding some of the Finnegan’s Wake references is that Zodiac was quoting Gilbert and Sullivan’s Mikado rather than using those words himself. Of course, the others that are mirrored in Finnegan’s Wake are Zodiac’s own usage – like ‘allways’,

I think possibly the whole portmanteau idea really appealed to Z for some reason. Have you come across any other literature that indicates the same? Double meaning as well which is possible why the interest in SLA as per that letter.

I still have a theory that Z was intentionally using the + sign between some words like ‘woeman + her’ because in other instances he wrote the word ‘and’. I’m convinced he was wanting the reader to anagram those words or perform some manipulation on them.

On a different note, I stumbled across this thread recently:

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/fo … &start=450

Note that just before half way down the posts, the member The Real Suspect Zero states the following:

Leigh happened to know Fred Manalli, the SRJC instructor who was killed in an auto accident on Hwy 12 on his way to Sebastopol where he lived.

He is referring to ALA who he claims in the rest of the forum to have spent considerable time with many years back, in his research on a Zodiac book. Not sure he ever published the book however he is convinced that ALA is the Zodiac and moreover, that he had an accomplice. I’ve read a lot of the posts and he never associates ALA anywhere else with Manalli, nor does he mention Manalli or think of him as the accomplice. So, I only found it interesting in relation to this discussion and wondered if it was possible to verify.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:34 pm

Thanks Luke.

Yeah , I’m just throwing stuff out as I find it. Even if it’s just similar or zodiac-esque regarding the Joyce stuff. Even if the whole Manalli thing turns out to be Zynchronicity it’s thrown up some interesting stuff.

Even regarding Zodiac’s handwriting. I’m coming across similarities between accepted zodiac stuff and the more contentious stuff because of this.

Regarding other literary works, I think Morf is looking at the other Joyce Stuff when he has time and Doranchak is bulk searching for words like christmass in other publications and has listed some in this thread.

As for the Manalli, Allen connection. I’ve seen it mentioned earlier in the thread but I don’t know anything else about it. Haven’t had the time to check to be honest but I will check your link. It’s something to help me take a break from letter comparisons :)



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:35 pm

Ok,

I’ve been working on the infamous 3 stroke k now for about 8 hours and there’s still quite a way to go. Basically I’ve taken all of zodiac’s k’s and put them together and am about halfway through Manalli’s.

I have another separate theory about the k which I will ponder and work on as part of this but for now I’m primarily concerned with the ‘relatively’ easy task of finding an example of Manalli doing a three stroke k or Zodiac doing a 2 stroke K.

Found Manalli’s 3 stroke.

Zodiac not so clear cut but I think I’ve found a very close similarity between zodiac’s k’s when they drift into very nearly being a 2 stroke and Manalli’s K’s when they drift and threaten to become a 3 stroke (obviously not counting the one where it is a three stroke.)



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:47 pm

Joyce purposely tried to use as many words as possible in Finnegan’s Wake. He literally just copied from the dictionary and it’s boasted that the work contains every word in the English language.

I don’t know if Joyce was common high school reading at the time, I wouldn’t think so because he was unpopular in America in the 30’s and 40’s. By the 60’s though, I think you would have college students reading his work, especially English and literature students. Maybe that’s something there. He was also a notorious libertine, and maybe that could have appealed to the "free love" hippies of the time.

Campbell and other Joyce scholars have pointed out his influence from Dante, and Fin’s wake is a sort of allegory to Purgatorio. Although Joyce’s version is based on his study of Jung’s archetypes and the themes of resurrection and his own Catholic upbringing of redemption; I don’t think it was inline with Z’s "slaves in paradice" (maybe a Dante reference?) it could easily appeal to someone who digged pseudo-religious iconography and didn’t really grasp the real philosophical meaning of the work.

To me that really fits the personality of Zodiac as the wannabe who was desperately trying to sound like he was a part of the intelligentsia, when he was just an underachiever with a victim complex.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:22 am

In working with Trav, I too have been noticing the continued similarities between Manalli & Zodiac, INCLUDING A 3 STROKE K by Manalli! I have used a 3 stroke K myself, for as long as I can remember writing. Its the only natural way I can do it. The only way I would do a 2 stroke would be for me to change it intentionally. Yet, Manalli uses mostly 2 strokes, then all of a sudden, we catch a 3 stroke in his letters. Thats really odd, and should never happen. Unless he purposely added it, or accidentally did one (because he was used to writing them sometimes for some reason, like Zodiac leters).














traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:13 am

Thanks for putting all that together Morf. Looks really well.

So what you might ask does Trav do when he’s not staring at the letters of dead people for hours on end? Why naturally Trav watches films that were once watched by dead people. Specifically the film Manalli mentioned in his letter dated Aug 27th 1969. "I am curious (yellow)".

You can read about it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Curious_(Yellow )

So …. Well, I probably already biased myself given the date of the mention and yes I was looking out for anything Berryessa-ish. You’ll have allow me that because there was no other real motivation for sitting through 2 hours of Swedish Art-Noir with no subtitles. Actually I’m probably going to get the subs and go through it again just to be thorough.

I’ve tried to be objective and not get to carried away tuning everything into some hidden zodiac thing. The only thing that kinda jumped out at me was the white convertable, an MG. It seemed to feature a reasonable amount in the film. There’s also a scene shot at a cabin in the woods, where Lena, the main character is trying yoga poses from a book and one of them is the hogtied position.
The guy with the convertible shows up after this and after initially being threatened with a shot gun, he and Lena make love and lie naked in each others arms under a tree. They then drive to a lake, where after some sort of argument in Swedish, they end up doing it in the water. Just prior to that the guy is washing his car which is pulled off the road beside the lake and he hunkered down washing the door. Looks like what you imagine it looks like. A guy, hunkered down beside the door of a white convertible with a black top parked just off the road.

After this Lena has a dream where she ties a bunch of men to a tree. Convertible guy turns up, she shots him with the shotgun and cuts his you-know-what off.

Throughout the whole there’s things posted on telegraph poles and written in Swedish. Oh and the K is a Zodiac 3-stroke. Lena has chalkboard which features heavily in the film with numbers on it that are constantly rising. So there’s white convertible, hand writing, lake, murder, rope, tree, young couple, girl is blonde, guy wears sunglasses. you get the idea.

Another bit I suppose is more subjective, in a scene nearing the end, Lena has another freak out in Swedish, wrecks her room, takes two daggers that are on her door and holding one in each hand, she kisses each one in turn before plunging them into the eyes of a portrait of Franco Francisco.

So yeah, theres all the nice keywords there, murder, knife, gun etc etc bla bla.

To be honest I’d really hoped for a hood.

Then something unexpected happened. A banjo serenader. It’s another scene near the very end. Lena and convertible guy are in what looks like an old hospital and they are both in separate room getting bathed and scrubbed then oil poured over them. It cuts occasionally to shots of the film crew and suddenly one of them is just sitting there and serenading everyone with a banjo.

The other film was "The Pawnbroker" starring Rod Steiger. Manalli mentions seeing this in a 1965 letter. The thing that struck me about this was the lake thing seemed to feature quite a bit and again it was in flash backs (or dreams). the flash backs featured him and his family having a picnic, under a tree, by a lake. You see it right at the start of the film and it last up until the point where all the family fun turns to fear but you don’t see what it is that’s alarmed them.

In the end you do and as they are looking towards the road, a motorcycle comes into view from behind a tree near them and it has three nazi soldiers in it and they get out, approach the fence and point their guns at the famliy under the tree.

Nice taste in films this guy had.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:19 am

Stranger & Stranger :shock:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:59 am

Tell me about it,

Here’s some screen grabs might illustrate better.









Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:36 am

That is some weird shit. I find myself more fascinated by it than by the handwriting. This Manalli guy is starting to look more and more intriguing.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:01 am

To me that really fits the personality of Zodiac as the wannabe who was desperately trying to sound like he was a part of the intelligentsia, when he was just an underachiever with a victim complex.

I would say that fits Manalli to a tee. All he seems to do is gripe about feeling like he’s being left behind. He refers to Berkely as a Cathedral of Learning, an Athens-by-the-sea and he dislikes it because it is so hard to penetrate it’s inner chambers.

Regarding the whole "Paradice" and "slaves" thing. I think Z was full of it. He seems to cross references here in that he say about "being reborn" into paradice which does speak of ressurection to me.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:06 am

That is some weird shit. I find myself more fascinated by it than by the handwriting. This Manalli guy is starting to look more and more intriguing.

It was intriguing enough for me from the onset with the handwriting. The rest of this stuff is just getting bizarre. I have to wonder why all of these things are are literally popping out of the woodwork. It’s not like much digging is needed, it’s just kinda falling in line and all from a few pages of Manalli’s writing.

I’m telling you now. If someone had written on that car door in "I am Curious (yellow)" I would have turned the computer off and nailed the windows shut.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:32 am

Ok last one for tonight or rather this morning.

The last scene in I am Curious Yellow involves Lena returning a "set of keys" to the director that was filming them and then she gets in the lift with convertible guy.

The credits roll.

Then the very last image you see is "one of those nice butons" on a cap.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:03 am

Wow, thats weird. The peace button…really cool. What year did that movie come out again?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:21 am

The title of the weird film ‘I am Curious’ just sank into my head. Zodiac wrote ‘I am mildy CEROUS’…obviously, he meant, CURIOUS.

Trav you watched I AM CURIOUS…YELLOW. Did you alos watch the companion sequal/prequel ‘I AM CURIOUS..BLUE’?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Curious_(Blue )



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:37 am

Trav, I found another 3 stroke K from Manalli.

Scratch that, I found 2 more-



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:50 am

I found MORE writings by Manalli:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Sho … KKNwAACAAJ

http://beta.worldcat.org/archivegrid/re … rd+Library



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:06 am

When Mannali writes about a total or numbers, here’s how he writes it:

Look familiar?



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:29 am

Wonder if ‘I Am Curious’ was showing anywhere in the Bay Area at the time, and if so, where.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:36 am

Wonder if ‘I Am Curious’ was showing anywhere in the Bay Area at the time, and if so, where.

In the wiki link, it states that the film was originally only showing in a few theaters across the county (in the north east)because of the sexual material being considered obscene. It got alot of word of mouth, and publicity for these reasons, which made for a promising profit, so eventually, it WAS shown nation wide.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:41 am

Nice.

The how he writes his numbers made me say OMG out loud.

3 stroke k’s, there’s another one BTW. It’s a correction on one of the typed pages near the bottom (inserting word – back).

See how things just keep coming. It’s weird. If this isn’t Z then I think we at least might have stumbled on a template for him at least lol.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:49 am

The title of the weird film ‘I am Curious’ just sank into my head. Zodiac wrote ‘I am mildy CEROUS’…obviously, he meant, CURIOUS.

Trav you watched I AM CURIOUS…YELLOW. Did you alos watch the companion sequal/prequel ‘I AM CURIOUS..BLUE’?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Curious_(Blue )

Yeah I was thinking that as well about the curious/cerous. As for the other other 2 films in the trilogy – no not yet but I will. nice going on the books too.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:41 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:58 am

Wonder if ‘I Am Curious’ was showing anywhere in the Bay Area at the time, and if so, where.

In the wiki link, it states that the film was originally only showing in a few theaters across the county (in the north east)because of the sexual material being considered obscene. It got alot of word of mouth, and publicity for these reasons, which made for a promising profit, so eventually, it WAS shown nation wide.

This film DID play in the bay area summer of 69. Here’s an article from the June 69 Fremont Argus:

And this ad for the movie appeared in the 8/13/69 Oakland Tribune:

It was showing at the Fox in Oakland.

Hmmm, 8/13/69…why do I know that date?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:28 am

The date of Sharon Tate’s funeral was 13/8/1969



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:50 am

I’ll caveat this post first by saying it’s a little bit of a stretch. Anyway, here goes…

April 20, 1970, My name is… letter:

I am mildly cerous…

Cerous in this context obviously means ‘curious’.

Cerous however is an actual word meaning:

Of, relating to, or containing cerium, especially with valence 3.

Cerium III is actually white or colorless whilst cerium IV is YELLOW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerium

And also, cerium IV is a WEAK base. Weak being a synonym for MILD.

So in Zodiac’s sentence we can actually obtain the full title of the film, I am Curious (Yellow).



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:53 am

Luke, thats pretty interesting. One of my fave suspects worked for humble Oil as a tech, so I have long known that CEROUS is a chemistry term relating to petroleum production. But in the fashion that you are presenting it, it seems plausible.



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:16 am

Very interesting find by Trav on Finnegan’s Wake word matches. Someone, Entropy I think, has a list of all of Z’s misspellings. I’d be interested in a list of them and how many appear in FW.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:22 am

Very interesting find by Trav on Finnegan’s Wake word matches. Someone, Entropy I think, has a list of all of Z’s misspellings. I’d be interested in a list of them and how many appear in FW.

Okay Entropy…..break it out… :D



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:24 am

I think it would be wise not to limit our investigation of Manalli to handwriting analysis alone. What else can we dig up on this guy to tie him to the Zodiac murders?

I agree completely. Let’s start with this stuff and see if there is any truth to these statements by Manalli:

Every time I re-read Manalli’s stuff, something jumps out. Like this-



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:34 am

Yeah that’s interesting. I have long followed the belief that Manelli was 6’3" or thereabouts, though I don’t know where that comes from. I don’t think Fouke, nor Hartnell, would have goofed up that bad, and it’s much harder to appear shorter than taller. Also likely if that was his height, his shoe size was larger than 10.5.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:36 am

Yeah that’s interesting. I have long followed the belief that Manelli was 6’3" or thereabouts, though I don’t know where that comes from. I don’t think Fouke, nor Hartnell, would have goofed up that bad, and it’s much harder to appear shorter than taller. Also likely if that was his height, his shoe size was larger than 10.5.

Seagull found his height, etc in a military form someplace. It was from the 50’s when he was in the service briefly. Graysmith described Manalli as "heavyset" when he was a teacher at Santa Rosa.



KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:39 am

:bounce: WOW!!! IT SOUNDS JUST LIKE HIM. AND ALL THAT JAZZ. MAY WE SEE MORE OF THAT LEttER, MORF13? IS THERE MORE FROM THIS PERSON?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:05 pm

I got the information about Manalli’s height and weight from his DD214, military discharge that is on file at the Sonoma County Recorders office. This is a document that can be viewed but not copied so I took notes. His height is given as 6’3" his weight 175 lbs. Most likely those measurements were taken when he entered the military in 1958 so they are very outdated. The height of course would be the same but the weight is probably off. Shoe size was not listed.

A DD214 is filed with a county recorders office when a veteran gets a home loan on the GI Bill.

I question that Arthur Allen went to Santa Rosa Junior College. I have seen nothing to confirm that information. Allen was a credentialed teacher who had completed a four year college and then some to receive his degree. Why would he go to a junior college which offers lower classmen type classes? Allen had already taken those classes including any english classes which is what Manalli taught, more specifically writing classes. Any classes offered at a junior college would not qualify a teacher to advance their teaching degree, they would need to go to a four year college for that.

I could see Allen possibly going to a junior college if he wanted to take some vocational type classes or maybe classes dealing with the arts, photography, drawing, ceramics etc. but in that case where would he have the occasion to hook up with Manalli? From what I have read of Manalli’s letters he wasn’t overly enthusiastic about his job. He did what was required of him but no more. He taught his subjects and then went home to work on his own writing.

, Subject: weight Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:15 pm

175 lb is on the "light side" for someone that is 6′ 3". Not saying the records are wrong, but he would have been quite thin.

-tbz

Edit: I take that back… looks like he would have been right in the "healthy range" according to statistics. Still, I’m 5′ 10" and always looked very thin when I was 175 lb. I think I may need to hit the gym again.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:18 pm

175 lb is on the "light side" for someone that is 6′ 3". Not saying the records are wrong, but he would have been quite thin.

-tbz

He had 10 years to put on weight. I know I have gained alot of weight over the last 10 years :no: Graysmith described Manalli as ‘heavyset’. Not sure where he got that info from.

For the hell of it, I am going to send out a military records req for Manalli.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:21 pm

Seagull, I assume Manalli was in the Army?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:26 pm

I’ll PM you his service number, Morf.

Manalli was born March 7, 1935, in 1958 he was just 23 years old. He had plenty of time to put on more weight and wouldn’t doubt that did.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:33 pm

I’ll PM you his service number, Morf.

Manalli was born March 7, 1935, in 1958 he was just 23 years old. He had plenty of time to put on more weight and wouldn’t doubt that did.

Great I have the FOIA request and envelope ready to go, just need the service#



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:11 pm

Ugh, I hate rain.

Manalli mentions the army in his letters but you’d easily miss it. He talking about not being able to stick at anything too long because he becomes too saturated by it and ends by saying – that includes the Army.

Maybe he got discharged for shuffling when he walked and shooting at people – that would be encouraging.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:16 pm

Manalli’s rank in the Army at the time of his discharge was SP4(E-4)(7). I am not sure what the (7) means but here is a website which explains simply what the other means.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Army-Enlisted … d&id=83715

According to his discharge papers Manalli joined the Army Reserves and was called to active duty Nov. 18, 1958. He initially joined Oct. 1, 1957. He spent 1 year, 11 months and 25 days on active duty. Upon completing his inactive obligation he was discharged from military service Sept. 30, 1963. During his active duty he spent 1 year, 6 months and 7 days overseas. I do not know where he was stationed.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:33 pm

Morf (and others):

I did a psychological analysis of the letters a couple of years ago for Seagull.
Only Seagull will know if I have letters that she did not send you, and I have copies of copies, many hard for me to read.

I was not trained in handwriting analysis, so I did not look at the letters
from that prespective. I was working on trying to analyze his state of mind at the time and determine if he was even capable of murder.

It was very helpful to me, that I did NOT know Manelli’s background, either before or after these letters, so my thoughts on this project would be able to concentrate on the contents only.

Manelli’s death is a mystery to me. I have not read all the posts in this forum, yet, so I don’t know if it came up, but there were mysterious circumstances involved. He died of a head-on auto collision on a fromer 2-lane road in Santa Rosa that is freeway now. He apparently turned his vehicle into an oncoming car. The other person survived, but what caused the action?

I asked Seagull for Manelli’s blood content to determine if alcohol was involved.
Did he have a heart attack? For some reason, I cannot determine it would be suicide wanting to take out an innocent person. I forget the road conditions, then – perhaps something made him swerve.

Anyway, if I have any material that can be helpful, I can scan it and send it.
Seagull, I think you will know the period – the early 60’s and the letters between Manelli and his former professor. Manelli was definately a very frustrated man. One reason – could not get his poems published. Another reason – could not find a better job then teaching at SRJC (I think he tried SF State, but do not remember). He also could not get his Master’s Degree from the University of his choice. As I remember, Manelli’s wife, Susan, divorced him and married his business partner Don Emblam.

This is a very interesting case. I am glad it is here.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:41 pm

Manalli died after his car ‘drifted’ into oncoming traffic. Official cause of death was shock from multiple cuts(if I remember right). I too wondered if he was drunk or chose suicide by auto. None of that mentioned in the death records. Manalli did seem like a frustrated man.

The funny thing is, Manalli is only a Z suspect because Graysmith mentioned him as such. Graysmith was apprently alerted to Manalli by an investigator, so I think that the investigator likely suspected Manalli as being involved in a Santa Rosa murder. Graysmith tried to link manalli to ALA, but thats never been proven. Still, I would like to know if some of the things about Manlli are true, especially if he was ever a teacher in southern CA.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:00 pm

There is MORE Manalli stuff waiting in the wings……

http://library.wustl.edu/units/spec/man … SS144.html
Papers from Manalli, in Sept 69 & Nov 69. These would be certainly interesting, as Zodiac was pretty busy writing letters around this time. I will see if I can get these



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:35 pm

My knowledge of Manelli is very limited, which was helpful so I could get
somewhat of an accurate psychological reading from the letters.

It was Sebastopol Road in Santa Rosa where the Manelli accident happened.
In those days, it was still 2-lane. (Now freeway). I stayed at a house on
Kenmore Lane, which was not connected to Sebastopol Road (then-is now).
It is about a mile west where the accident occured.

You mentioned the word "drifted" when I thought he "made a sharp turn."
I wonder if he fell asleep at the wheel? I think he passed later at the hospital.
He died from multiple wounds and cuts, as I remember also. I think he was in a van, hitting a small car, but don’t remember, so my statement on that is not reliable.

Morf, between you and Seagull, who has studied Manelli and the SRHM for years, have shed light on the accident and Manelli himself. Maybe Seagull knows if Manelli was in SoCal. I think he came from Chicago, but, from my memory, could very well be mistaken.

In psychology, extreme frustration can turn to inward anger and bitterness.
Is it possible such anger could lead to the desire to kill? Possible, depending on the person’s lifescript, of which I do not know about Manelli.

He was a very highly respected man in his area, which does not rule out
he could have an impulse to kill, and certainly an interesting character.
I am sure losing his wife to his business partner didn’t help matters, although I understand that they had filed for divorce several times in the past.

My papers Seagull sent were from the late 50’s-early 60’s, so the link Morf provided, above, would be a time frame of Zodiac activity.

I still have to finish reading the thread up to this page – I am on page 6…
did anybody copy/paste the death certificate or the newspaper articles on the accident? If not, I can.

abnerck@msn.com



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:00 pm

That would be great Train if you could post those.

Here’s the comp chart for the k’s.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:07 pm

Good work again Trav. Its hard to explain why Manalli uses both a 2 stroke & 3 stroke K. Theres no logical explanation for it. Again, I have used a 3 stroke K my entire life,and the only way I could possibly make a 2 stroke would not be on accident, I would physically & mentally have to make a conscious effort to do it. So, why did Manalli do it? Anybody else disagree with this?

This is good stuff for sure.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:39 pm

I have to say at this point that I’m not sure either way. There are things that make me think, ok, close but probably no cigar and then there are things that I can’t really explain or can explain too easily.

Duckking said to me recently that this was all both intriguing and confusing. I think that sums it up very well. Perhaps as a nod to Joyce we could term it
"Contriguing".

The ‘Drift’ thing I mention is a fancy way of saying for each variation on Zodiac’s k’s, Manalli seems to have a counterpart. Also both start at opposites ends, one trying to stick a clean 3 stroke k and the other trying to stick to a cursive k. Neither managing it. To be very clear – I have no idea if this means anything. Maybe lots of people do that?

Hmmmm…just had a thought. I did do that….when I was a kid learning cursive so maybe it’s an indicator of a change in form from cursive to print and vice-versa at the same time overlapping. I would have expected, maybe, for there to be more contamination in the printed stuff than in the cursive stuff…..unless they were, in a way both learning experiences to a certain degree. Learning to write all in print and re-learning to write in cursive.

Manalli on serveral of his letters apologizes for writing rather than typing (his typewriter was being fixed). He hopes his writing will be legible and complains that he barely read it himself. He seemed to much prefer typing. Seagull would that be right or is it 50/50 ish for handwritten vs typed? Wish we knew if he left or right handed.

I wanted ask, is this ‘contriguing’ or is it just all shiny and new? I’m ‘contrigued’ , then I’m confused, then intrigued, then contrigued again.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:56 pm

Good work again Trav. Its hard to explain why Manalli uses both a 2 stroke & 3 stroke K. Theres no logical explanation for it. Again, I have used a 3 stroke K my entire life,and the only way I could possibly make a 2 stroke would not be on accident, I would physically & mentally have to make a conscious effort to do it. So, why did Manalli do it? Anybody else disagree with this?

This is good stuff for sure.

I agree with you on the changing from one form to another. I would have to stop and think.

As for Manalli and his 2 stroke and then 3 stroke. I would maybe guess that the simplest answer might be the most logical. His 3 stroke is his uppercase print 3 stroke.

He may be used to implementing that when doing something in print. I dont mean the Zodiac letters btw, it could be anything like signs for the classroom or simply what some people might call, their tidy writing.

Because there are more angles in a 3 stroke k its a little more forgiving as it fills the space better and it’s easier to get the stoke lengths right even if you don’t it still looks ok.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:58 pm

There is way more typewritten stuff than handwritten. I sent you the bulk of the handwritten letters.

Manalli does speak of having blackouts, not alcoholic blackouts, just times where he has no idea what he has been doing for periods of time. He was seeking medical attention for the problem. I have read somewhere, maybe Graysmith, that he had epilepsy but it doesn’t really say that was the diagnosis in his letters. When reading those parts I was reminded of the blackouts that Arthur Shawcross had at the times of the murders he committed. I believe other serial killers have complained of the same thing happening to them. I suppose many would believe that the killers were just using blackouts as an excuse not to face up and fess up to the crimes thay have committed. It actually might be a real occurance, something to do with the psychology of killing and protecting oneself mentally from the horror of what they have done.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:03 pm

VERY INTERESTING, indeed, traveller. You are good at this.

Most (if not all) psychological profiles point to Zodiac having a hatred for women.

Manelli taught in a junior college where women, around the ages of the SRHM occured, as well
as the ages of the Zodiac victims.

I am not saying that Manelli is the responsible – just that this information is very interesting!

I will go through the material I have. I think Seagull has the originals which would show up better, but
if she is busy, I would be happy to post them.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:13 pm

Trainmaster please do NOT post Manalli’s letters!!! I signed copyright agreements and the letters can not be posted in whole unless I get permission. I do not have the original letters, just copies. Mine are first generation copies, yours second generation but I went to a good copy place to get your copies and saw no difference.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:21 pm

Thanks Seagull.

I had a feeling that was probably the case with the handwritten stuff.

Also, I can personally vouch for the weirdness of blackouts. If you have a proper blackout, and I don’t mean forgetting bits of a heavy, sauce filled evening, you don’t remember anything. This is because as far as your brain is concerned there is nothing to remember. It’s not like having a blank spot in you memory, where, whether you realise it or not, you can remember because you know there’s something missing.

A blackout doesn’t leave you that. You don’t even have an inkling. You remember right up until the blackout happens, you remember after it but even if you sit down after knowing you had a blackout and work out how long it was you head still won’t accept that there’s even a gap there.

The brain can’t process what a blackout is because it was turned off essentially at the time. When it comes back online there’s no back up of data like you would have if you were sleeping or even just blind drunk. We still have emotions and sensations during those times and those can form the basis associative memory where you still can’t remember but your brain remembers a backup reference to place it roughly in time. There is no time in a blackout to even reference against.

EDIT: FWIW I doubt Zodiac had blackouts since he was able to remember his crimes and write about about them. You can do anything in a blackout but I don’t think it includes getting up the next morning and posting details of your crime to the papers.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:22 pm

Trainmaster please do NOT post Manalli’s letters!!! I signed copyright agreements and the letters can not be posted in whole unless I get permission. I do not have the original letters, just copies. Mine are first generation copies, yours second generation but I went to a good copy place to get your copies and saw no difference.

Good catch Seagull. Sorry that was my fault I just wasn’t thinking at all.



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:45 pm

Wow, one stroke Ks, that takes some effort!

6’3", just can’t get past that. And that was likely barefoot.

That would be great Train if you could post those.

Here’s the comp chart for the k’s.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:15 pm

Don’t worry, Seagull. I understand the situation very well. Same goes for the Death Certificate and paper articles.

If anyone wants information, they should be directed to either you or Morf.

Thanks for posting that. I certainly would not want trouble for you!

Best,

Trainmaster



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:03 am

FWIW I doubt Zodiac had blackouts since he was able to remember his crimes and write about about them. You can do anything in a blackout but I don’t think it includes getting up the next morning and posting details of your crime to the papers.

Unless, of course, the letter writing and letter sending also occurred during these blackouts.

I used to pooh-pooh the notion of dissociative fugues, until I actually saw one myself. Now I don’t feel I can dismiss such a hypothesis where it comes to Zodiac. I could explain why the 1974 letters are so different from the Zodiac ones.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:42 am

Very true Nacht. I don’t know how long blackout last for though.

Ok,

I was trying to think of a clear way to show this. In the end I just stuck it on there and sized it as best I could. What you are looking for is where the two samples match up, follow the same shape, same line, same gaps (for the most), same left margin scooping in.

Look closely and slowly at each letter and follow the writing through to the end…let me know at which point you can’t tell which is which.

EDIT: Here’s another one with the left margin visible.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:59 am

Not meaning to be a repetitive sounding board, but, holding a Psychology degree, I can say blackouts vary from
one person to another. A lot of it depends on the individual’s lifescript. I often wonder if the killer suffered from DID
(Dissociative Identity Disorder)???



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:24 am

Sorry Trav, although I agree with you, and think there are many similarities in Manalli’s writing, this overlay of Manalli’s against the Citizen letter, is too jumbled,too loud for me. I can’t really read it well,as it seems a bit cluttered.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:25 am

I have found one more similarity between Manalli & Zodiac, and one big difference….

First the similairty. Everytime Manalli writes something with a capital ‘TH’, he connects the tops of the T & H, just like Z did(see below):

The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word ‘the’, he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:20 am

I was trying to think of a clear way to show this. In the end I just stuck it on there and sized it as best I could. What you are looking for is where the two samples match up, follow the same shape, same line, same gaps (for the most), same left margin scooping in.

Look closely and slowly at each letter and follow the writing through to the end…let me know at which point you can’t tell which is which.

….

I see differences as early as the first and second lines.

The Greeting "Sirs" has a dash followed by the beginning of the body of the letter whereas Manalli follows the usual format of a letter’s greeting. There is also a date on Manalli’s exemplar but not on Zodiac’s. The paragraph indentation is different as are the left and right margin alignments, the right in particular. Horizontal alignment is close but not near a perfect match.

I can’t make a letter-by-letter comparison other than to say the height of the letters are similar. Manalli’s letters look smaller.

I have no training in document examination but to my eye the writings are different.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:17 am

No probs,

It is hard to see and hopefully I can show what I’m seeing in more detail but I wanted that out there first because I think it will useful to look back at once the details are highlighted.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:21 am

The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word ‘the’, he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.

Yup, you’re right.

I’ve had a quick look and he does it for the words the, this, and that. Haven’t checked it all but that seems pretty much the case throughout. Actually it’s any word that starts with ‘th’.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:12 pm

Hey, Trav:

I noticed you are in Northern Ireland….Belfast?

I am curious about your handwriting analysis, as you are doing a good job – were you trained in that?

I am really thrown off in the post, above. I can recognize "Dear Dan" as Manelli’s writing, and the background the Zodiac, I can’t make out. You guys have much
better eyesight then I do. Please keep us informed.

Morf, I don’t mean to butt in, but I looked at my Manelli papers, and yes, he does capitalize every word with "The" and any modifier that begins with "T" (There). (Handwriting only – not typed). Just thought you would like to know. Sorry for intruding.

Trainmaster



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:36 pm

Hi Train,

No not Belfast, Downpatrick.

As for the handwriting, no I wasn’t. In no way am I trained in handwriting analysis. I have been a graphic designer for over 20 years, and that includes font creation and type styling so that’s why I have a reasonably meticulous eye and can see things that other might not look for or recognise. Most of the time I’m in that category too though lol.

I started back in the days before computers so I spent a long time manually drawing typefaces and doing artwork and so on and that’s memory of those techniques has proved somewhat useful for my amateur attempts at analysis.

I wouldn’t worry about the last post. It is very hard to see but will hopefully follow later with something clearer to point out the interesting bits in it that I’m seeing.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:33 pm

More comparisons…

The word ‘editor’. The top one is Manalli’s and the rest are Z’s.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:09 pm

This is the most unusual comparison in my opinion, between Zodiac & Manalli. Neither Z, or Manalli usually made their letter K’s like this. But it seems as if they both made an exception and did it at least onece, and they almost mirror each other as if they were specially designed. I call it the ‘special K’ comparison, because they are both really unusual. One has a curl on the top, and the other has the same exact curl on the bottom.



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:53 pm

Morf, that K you pointed out of Minalli’s, upon enlarging, is the same as his others, and was likely connected as I have shown. You can see there appears to be an blank streak probably from a scan or photocopy process.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 pm

Here’s how Manalii’s text lines up over the citizen letter. I’ve removed some bits and left the relevant bits to show how they match up. This text was lfted from a section of a letter and what remains of the words are spaced from each other as they were in the letter.

I can’t stress enough how much stuff in this lines up. The verticals change shape slightly as they go from left to right, Manalli’s do exactly the same thing. Letters within words line up on curves and angles as well as the same letter sometimes.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:39 pm

FOUND IT.

That mirror thing I kept mentioning. A weird symmetry that I couldn’t put my finger on.

It’s not a mirror or a reflection, it’s a shadow

When lined up correctly the letters from the and words from the citizen letter provide a shadow for Manalli’s writing. That’s what was weird about it.

BTW: What I think that means is that whatever is written on that citizen letter, is, in all likelyhood, the italicised version of what’s written in Manalli’s letters.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:51 am

Here we go,

This is a few words picked out. On the left are the words with their shadow. On the right I have separated out the two words. I’ve taken the word from the citizen letter and skewed them back into place to match the direction of the writing and look what happens. Look at the spacing in them, they are the same. Even the word light revealed it’s baseline shape which I hadn’t noticed until now and even they match.

I hope this helps illustrate some of the things I’ve been seeing in this guys handwriting.

EDIT: BTW for me to be able to skew those back into shape to match – they have to match. If just one stroke in those words was in the wrong direction I wouldn’t have been able to match them up. So basically those words are matches for each other. There’s no other way to say it.



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:59 am

Still raining eh?

Is any of Minalli’s stuff written in blue felt tip, or on Monarch size paper?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:01 am

More great similarities Trav. I know one thing, if Manalli wasnt Zodiac, he certainly happened to have had very similar writing to Z. I have been trying to use Zodiac’s writing in pen instead of his writing in felt tip, because I think the ink writing looks more like his everyday writing, while the felt tip writing can make the letters appear fatter or thicker, as opposed to the ink pen which will be thinner.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:02 am

There are one or two letters with a handwritten postscript that looks to be felt tipped pen but as the letters I have are copies, I don’t know the true color of the pen.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:07 am

I’m reposting this in case it gets missed as the edit to my last post. This is important.

BTW for me to be able to skew those back into shape to match – they have to match. If just one stroke in those words was in the wrong direction I wouldn’t have been able to match them up. So basically those words are matches for each other. There’s no other way to say it.

I have to get one letter to match and the other have to be of the correct spacing to fall in line. These did just that, perfectly.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:29 am

Another comparison:

If you straighten out Zodiac’s ‘HILLS’ and take the slant out of it, it seems to be almost identical to Manalli’s. I am not a writing expoert, and personally, I would love to hear a writing expert’s opinion on Manalli’s writing compared to Zodiac. Some experts have felt that Zodiac was under the influence of something (drugs, or some sort of episode)when he wrote his letters. That could certainly change appearance of somebodys writing I would think.

TRAV, you can you turn/slant the word ‘HILLS’ as written by Manalli to see what it looks like against Z’s?…Hell….maybe try that with all of manalli’s samples.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:57 am

The word ‘PUBLIC’ from both Z & Manalli, notice how both words have a curve uner them, or the word seems to rainbow.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:41 pm

Analysis of one of Manalli’s poems (Supplied by Seagull with many thanks)

[url= http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=207&u=17065889 ]

BTW What it seems to be about is writing a will



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:13 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:16 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.

I am having trouble finding out what High School he attended. I would love to go back and see if they ever did any G&S productions when he was there, or if he was in Drama, etc



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:22 pm

Pretty close,

Not quite as close as the citizen letter but close. Look at the dot on the i in high in both.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:31 pm

Pretty close,

Not quite as close as the citizen letter but close. Look at the dot on the i in high in both.

Wow, tha tis pretty close Trav. This is from AFTER you slant Manalli’s writing to the slant Zodiac uses?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:35 pm

yes it is.

I’ve slanted manalli’s on the top ones to match zodiac and I’ve slanted zodiac’s on the bottom one to match manalli’s



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:38 pm

I could see Zodiac trying to write at a slant to disguise his writing. When you slant Manalli’s writing, it looks even more Z like.



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:19 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.

I am having trouble finding out what High School he attended. I would love to go back and see if they ever did any G&S productions when he was there, or if he was in Drama, etc

Morf, it’s listed on his college yearbook entry as being a member of the glee club. Maybe check if there were any productions of G&S at University of Illinois at that time?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:30 pm

This is what I meant when I said about the left margins matching



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:07 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.

I am having trouble finding out what High School he attended. I would love to go back and see if they ever did any G&S productions when he was there, or if he was in Drama, etc

Morf, it’s listed on his college yearbook entry as being a member of the glee club. Maybe check if there were any productions of G&S at University of Illinois at that time?

I have only Manalli’s college senior yearbook. The plays that the college put on that school year were-

A Streetcar Named Desire
Hedda Gabbler
Man snd Superman
King Lear
The Caine Mutiny Court Martial

There is a photo of all the men’s glee club members but Manalli is not in that picture. Going by the numbers in parenthese next to the activities he participated in while at college I would say he was in glee club just his first year, looks like he was on the Illni Union Committee his first and second years and so on.

I have looked through the yearbook for other Zodiac related stuff but didn’t see any. Could have missed something of course, it’s the largest yearbook I’ve ever seen!



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:53 pm

Seagull, is that yearbook online anyplace?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:57 pm

I bought one from Ebay but I was able to make sure that Manalli was in there by looking through one at Classmates.com first.

University of Illinois Champaign Urbana 1957

There are only pictures of the seniors in the yearbook so I don’t think it would do any good to get previous years.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:37 pm

I bought one from Ebay but I was able to make sure that Manalli was in there by looking through one at Classmates.com first.

University of Illinois Champaign Urbana 1957

There are only pictures of the seniors in the yearbook so I don’t think it would do any good to get previous years.

Seagull, do you remember, I posted articles a long time back that mentioned Manalli was a teacher of some sort in Illinois? Do you still have those articles?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:48 pm

So I was checking out another film Manalli mentioned. HELP by the Beatles.

Starts off with an executioner in full costume ready to make a human sacrifice. Spotted this little bit of zynchronicity though. A manhole cover that’s actually a hat cause the executioner is hiding under it.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:49 pm

You posted them here Morf :roll:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oma-county

there’s one more on the page following the above page!



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:06 pm

You posted them here Morf :roll:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oma-county

there’s one more on the page following the above page!

Thanks. By the way Seagull, in Manalli’s yearbook listing, it lists his activities,one of which is oratorio society. I had to look that up here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oratorio

"An oratorio is a large musical composition including an orchestra, a choir, and soloists. Like an opera, an oratorio includes the use of a choir, soloists, an ensemble, various distinguishable characters, and arias. However, opera is musical theatre, while oratorio is strictly a concert piece—though oratorios are sometimes staged as operas, and operas are sometimes presented in concert form"

Then I looked up Gilbert & Sullivan:

"Sir Arthur Seymour Sullivan MVO (13 May 1842 – 22 November 1900) was an English composer of Irish and Italian ancestry. He is best known for his series of 14 operatic collaborations with the dramatist W. S. Gilbert, including such enduring works as H.M.S. Pinafore, The Pirates of Penzance and The Mikado. Sullivan composed 23 operas, 13 major orchestral works, eight choral works and oratorios"

Seagull, I am having a hard time tracking down what High School he went to. Any ideas?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:07 pm

So I was checking out another film Manalli mentioned. HELP by the Beatles.

Starts off with an executioner in full costume ready to make a human sacrifice. Spotted this little bit of zynchronicity though. A manhole cover that’s actually a hat cause the executioner is hiding under it.

Hmm. Another interesting item. Did the costume look at all like Berryessa outfit?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:24 pm

Nah it didn’t really look like the Berryessa one.

A few scenes later the scientist’s gun fails and he says "see? British rubbish, if I had a luger…."



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:31 pm

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:41 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:39 pm

You posted them here Morf :roll:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oma-county

there’s one more on the page following the above page!

Thanks!


He was at Durand HS in 61. He was Faculty Director



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:50 pm

High School

I’m not certain but I think he may have gone to East High school. I remember looking up the high schools in Rockford, IL and East was one would have been around back in 1953 or thereabouts. It’s also possible that the high school he went to closed. Have you looked at Classmates for high schools in Rockford for that time period?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:53 pm

High School

I’m not certain but I think he may have gone to East High school. I remember looking up the high schools in Rockford, IL and East was one would have been around back in 1953 or thereabouts. It’s also possible that the high school he went to closed. Have you looked at Classmates for high schools in Rockford for that time period?

Yeah, his Brother went to EAST, but I didnt find him



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:55 am

I would not call this a 3 stroke K, at least not in the sense of Z’s usual 3 stroke Ks that begin the downward leg at some point right of the intersection with the vertical. This K could have, and imo was, done without lifting pen from paper for the bottom leg.

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:10 am

I would not call this a 3 stroke K, at least not in the sense of Z’s usual 3 stroke Ks that begin the downward leg at some point right of the intersection with the vertical. This K could have, and imo was, done without lifting pen from paper for the bottom leg.

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.

This is Manalli’s K, and I think there is absolutely, positively, ZERO doubt that this is a 3 stroke.

Like Zodiac, he did both 2 stroke & 3 stroke



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:23 am

Yep, now that is a 3 stroke, multiple adverbs and caps not necessary. Let’s see the entire page.

And show me the Z 2 stroke also.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:49 am

Morf:

A good example of an Oratorio would be Handel’s "Messiah" or Bach’s "Mass in C Minor."

I don’t know what bearing the word has for Manelli – there are no other meanings for "Oratorio."

Hope that helps.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:20 pm

I would not call this a 3 stroke K, at least not in the sense of Z’s usual 3 stroke Ks that begin the downward leg at some point right of the intersection with the vertical. This K could have, and imo was, done without lifting pen from paper for the bottom leg.

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.

I wasn’t sure at first myself if it was a 3 stroke or a 2 stroke. At a distance it does, close up it does look like a 2 stroke except for this. There’s an extra stroke here which doesn’t correspond to the direction of the main upright and heavier.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:23 pm

Actually lets make sure SEAGULL can you email your hi-res copy of that page with that address on it.

EDIT: Also to add when it gets down to this, where the construction of a letter is ambiguous, it’s time for examination of the actual document so you can see the pen strokes to be absolutely sure.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:09 pm

Here we are,

Looks like a 2 stroke but there is something I can’t confirm, happening because it’s a copy and not a photo or an original.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:15 pm

Here we are,

Looks like a 2 stroke but there is something I can’t confirm, happening because it’s a copy and not a photo or an original.

Some Zodiac & Manalli K’s ….

Bentley, you wanted to see a possible 2 stroke K by Zodiac, how about the 4th from the right? If any one is, that is. In one of Sherwood’s memos/reports, wasnt there a mention of Zodiac using 2 different K’s, a 2 stroke & 3 stroke?



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:24 pm

What about the Ampersand?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:28 pm

What about the Ampersand?

Yes, he used an ampersand ( I had to look that one up :D ) and like Zodiac, he used the other symbol for the word AND



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:31 pm

Here we are,

Looks like a 2 stroke but there is something I can’t confirm, happening because it’s a copy and not a photo or an original.

Some Zodiac & Manalli K’s ….

Bentley, you wanted to see a possible 2 stroke K by Zodiac, how about the 4th from the right? If any one is, that is. In one of Sherwood’s memos/reports, wasnt there a mention of Zodiac using 2 different K’s, a 2 stroke & 3 stroke?

And this comparison looks very clsoe in my opinion:

Now I will turn the K that Z wrote straight upwards and get rid of the salnt, now it looks even more like Manalli’s.

One difference I see on Manalli’s letter K is that he has a slight curve in the top right of his K where Zodiac’s looks more straight.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:56 pm

The Ampersand doesn’t match. It’s Manalli’s occasional lower case t that actually is very close to the Zodiac ampersand.

I had a look at this K again and without seeing the pen strokes themselves I can’t confirm but there is something weird going on that I can’t quite seem to reconcile sufficiently.

Here’s what I think I’m seeing. The downstroke on Manallii’s k is ok but there’s something at the bottom that sticks out from the line followed by the downstroke. What it looks like to me is a second start point for the second stroke.

The top K is one of Zodiac’s. At a distance it could be a 2 point but if you look closely you can see the start points for the strokes and there are 3 of them. That’s what I’ve tried to see here in Manalli’s but because it’s a photocopy rather than a photo it’s inconclusive. All I’m showing here is what I think is there – a best guess to explain the nature of the angle and the out of line bit on the downstroke.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:01 pm

One of these R’s is from Manalli written in 1963 & the other is from the author of the ‘Bates had to die’ letters written in 67. Can you tell which is which?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:00 pm

Ok I was starting to take a look at the desk poem when I spotted something that hadn’t occurred to me. One of the lower case u’s on the desktop tumbles forward. That was one of the things about Zodiac’s letters, his did the same, it’s one of the unique features other than the famous k.

I checked Manalli’s writing and his u’s don’t do that. In 63, and 65 at least. When we get to 69 however his u’s are now doing it. Compared against one of the pages from the little list the angles of the u’s match. I’ve used the word ‘out’ from the letter on the right to illustrate this.

The second image shows that there is a very similar margin shape as we had with the citizen letter.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:26 pm

Here’s something that differs in the Zodiac stuff from Manalli’s. The N’s don’t match. The are the mirror of each other. Zodiac’s have a starting point at the top whereas Manalli’s have a starting point at the bottom.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:45 pm

Ok

A little game for you all.

Which one of the N’s, No.1 or No.2., is backwards?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:17 pm

Here’s something that differs in the Zodiac stuff from Manalli’s. The N’s don’t match. The are the mirror of each other. Zodiac’s have a starting point at the top whereas Manalli’s have a starting point at the bottom.

You are comparing a lower case N of Zodiac’s to an upper case N of Manalli. This is a lower case letter N from Manalli….it starts from the top like Zodiac…

Now, compare a capital N from Zodiac…like manalli’s, it starts from the bottom:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:19 pm

Ah well spotted. You still have to play the game though. :D



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Ah well spotted. You still have to play the game though. :D

No problem. This may actually merit a side by side of Zodiac’s alphabet & Manalli’s, and include upper & lower case to see just what is the same & what is not. I already can tell, there will be far more similarities than differences.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:26 pm

Ok

A little game for you all.

Which one of the N’s, No.1 or No.2., is backwards?

I would say #2…or is this a trick question?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:29 pm

No 2 is the one that is backwards … but….only in the context of this page.

Look again and tell me which one has the same starting point as zodiac’s n’s. Then tell me which one is the wrong way round?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:42 pm

No 2 is the one that is backwards … but….only in the context of this page.

Look again and tell me which one has the same starting point as zodiac’s n’s. Then tell me which one is the wrong way round?

weird



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:47 pm

Yup, it’s visual irony where the one you think is backwards is actually the one that the right way round, in the context of the n itself and how zodiac uses it.

irregardless of anyone else’s handwriting. I wonder if this was deliberately put there for that reason.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:14 pm

My bad on the ampersand. Manalli does do a cross type one as well.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:08 am

More Finnegan’s Wake matches from the full list of Zodiac’s misspellings as compiled by Deoxys (link supplied by Entropy)

When Lapac walks backwords he’s darkest horse in Capalisoot (3 instances in total)

saved from the drohnings they might oncounter, untill his cubid long, to hide in dry (1 instance in total)

moves in vicous cicles yet remews the same; the drain rats bless his offals while the park birds curse his floodlights; (1 instance in total)

come, my horse delayed, nom num, the substance of the tale of the evangelical bussybozzy (1 instance in total, there is another but it’s not in context of the word busy)

comeho to roo. Comehome to roo, wee chickchilds doo, when the wildworewolf’s abroad. (2 instances in total)

(Chorus) Woohoo, what’ll she doo!

A bone, a pebble, a ramskin; chip them, chap them, cut them up allways; leave them to terracook in the muttheringpot (1 instance in total)

Wold Forrester Farley who, in deesperation of deispiration at the diasporation of his diesparation, was found of the round of the sound of the lound of
the.Lukkedoerendunandurraskewdylooshoofermoyportertooryzooysphalnabortansporthaokansakroidverjkapakkapuk. (1 instance in total)



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:19 am

More following a rabbit down a hole to see what I could find.

In one of his letters Manalli talks of drinking with his immediate peers and the literary names they dropped in conversation.
Thought I’d find out who Welty was.

She was Eudroa Welty and I found this quote from her quite interesting and the context of it as well.

Immediately after the murder of Medgar Evers in 1963, Welty wrote Where Is the Voice Coming From?.

As Welty later said, she wondered,

"Whoever the murderer is, I know him: not his identity, but his coming about, in this time and place. That is, I ought to have learned by now, from here, what such a man, intent on such a deed, had going on in his mind. I wrote his story—my fiction—in the first person: about that character’s point of view".

Welty’s story was published in The New Yorker soon after de la Beckwith’s arrest.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:26 am

Trav, Great list of misspellings.

Here’s another from James Joyce’s book, ‘ULYSSES’…
"Pours a cruse of hair oil over" Zodiac wrote, "I will CRUSE around"

I am starting to wonder if ALL of Zodiac’s misspellings can be found in Joyce’s writings, or in the writings of other Authors & writers too. I think there is the overwhelming likelihood that the bulk of Zodiac’s misspellings came from Joyce’s work.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:44 am

I would say that we’ve already found the bulk of them in Joyce. Whether that’s a unique thing and therefore proof I don’t know. One thing that makes me lean towards it being proof is that the words that are found aren’t really strictly misspellings. They are deliberately altered words for a purpose, the remaining words, which I feel are misspellings, I haven’t found in Finnegan’s Wake.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:53 am

From Joyce’s work, ‘ULYSSES’, "after the stumping figure and said mildly"
From Zodiac…"I am mildly cerous’



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:13 am

Check this out-

Adorno’s posthumous Aesthetic Theory (1969) does not, therefore, denounce art after Auschwitz, but elaborates how it works in its new life that is, as it were, an afterlife. The literary models he references for this "afterlife" are James Joyce, Samuel Beckett, and, above all, Paul Celan: those great modernist writers who set before us the disfigured body of art after its own demise. Celan’s poems in particular exemplify at once poetry and the death of poetry. They represent the barbarism of artifice interwoven with the final wall of suffering beyond which there can be no further speech; as Celan phrases this condition, "we grew interlaces, there was / no longer a name for / that which drove us" ("In Prague," qtd. in McClatchy 216). Adorno’s diagnosis, then, is that poetry, that activity of naming things, had been driven, after such mass murder, beyond the naming of things to the naming of silence and suffering. Far from being an outworn activity, it is an essential one because the barbarism of poetry at least is interwoven with voiceless suffering. The workaday world of modern ideology, he found in despairing contrast, had not merely silenced the cry of history’s victims; it had all but erased them.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:16 am

Do you think we should keep talking about Joyce here or make a new thread? I have some more ideas about him and Z connections, but they don’t really have anything to do with FM.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:24 am

Do you think we should keep talking about Joyce here or make a new thread? I have some more ideas about him and Z connections, but they don’t really have anything to do with FM.

Heres a new thread for it:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oyce#29664

Even if Manalli is not Zodiac, he pointed us possibly towards an important clue in James Joyce



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:22 pm

I knew there was something suspicious about poetry. Even in Primary (Elementary) school I knew it. :D Good find, even more stuff to look into.

Big Z had asked me about the circle dots that Zodiac uses. These are most evident in the "Exorcist letter" and on the Car Door.

I had considered these as well and hadn’t seen any in Manalli’s writing. I had noted his rather heavy approach to punctuation which is very similar to Zodiacs. By heavy I mean oversized and emphasized as opposed to a simple dot. What I wasn’t sure about was how he constructed these. As the letters are photocopies it not possible to say if a dot is a circle just because there’s a hole in the middle. It could be a solid dot but photocopying degradation can create a hole where there isn’t one.

I was happy enough to leave it as ‘inconclusive’, not least cause I got use a proper grown-up LE term lol. Then, of course, as this writing just keeps doing, something pops up.

Ignore the hole. Look at the outline. There looks to be evidence of a circular motion to create the dot.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:25 pm

I knew there was something suspicious about poetry. Even in Primary (Elementary) school I knew it. :D Good find, even more stuff to look into.

Big Z had asked me about the circle dots that Zodiac uses. These are most evident in the "Exorcist letter" and on the Car Door.

I had considered these as well and hadn’t seen any in Manalli’s writing. I had noted his rather heavy approach to punctuation which is very similar to Zodiacs. By heavy I mean oversized and emphasized as opposed to a simple dot. What I wasn’t sure about was how he constructed these. As the letters are photocopies it not possible to say if a dot is a circle just because there’s a hole in the middle. It could be a solid dot but photocopying degradation can create a hole where there isn’t one.

I was happy enough to leave it as ‘inconclusive’, not least cause I got use a proper grown-up LE term lol. Then, of course, as this writing just keeps doing, something pops up.

Ignore the hole. Look at the outline. There looks to be evidence of a circular motion to create the dot.

They look almost like little x’s in the circle,almost like this:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:28 pm

Do you think we should keep talking about Joyce here or make a new thread? I have some more ideas about him and Z connections, but they don’t really have anything to do with FM.

Yes good call. I was thinking the same thing.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:01 pm

Just while we’re looking at this I thought I’d check and what a surprise. Both Manalli and Zodiac do their circles in the same direction.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:26 pm

More Manalli/Zodiac comparisons.

The letetr K. Zodiac did not make his K’s like this most of the time. And neither did Manalli. But this is pretty close in my opinion. Zodiac’s is first & Manalli’s is 2nd. Then third is Zodiac’s again, only this time, I stood it more upright.




morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:34 pm

Another example of Manalli’s lower case i with the circle on top like Zodiac’s:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:06 pm

And now we have the right 4 as well.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:27 pm

More Manalli/Zodiac comparisons.

The letetr K. Zodiac did not make his K’s like this most of the time. And neither did Manalli. But this is pretty close in my opinion. Zodiac’s is first & Manalli’s is 2nd. Then third is Zodiac’s again, only this time, I stood it more upright.


Good stuff Morf although you should have used this k a few lines below. :D



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:54 pm

I’m working on a comp for the dripping pen letter but I wanted to post this as I’ve spotted it. I’ll ad the full comp for this card once it’s done.

This shows what I’ll call the half W. I’ve seen this mentioned as a spelling error on occasion but it’s not, it’s just an incomplete w. And good old Fred has one too.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:01 pm

I’m working on a comp for the dripping pen letter but I wanted to post this as I’ve spotted it. I’ll ad the full comp for this card once it’s done.

This shows what I’ll call the half W. I’ve seen this mentioned as a spelling error on occasion but it’s not, it’s just an incomplete w. And good old Fred has one too.

That is impressive Trav. And if you stand Zodiac’s half W straight up, it is very close to a match



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:07 pm

Manalli using one of Zodiac’s favorite words, SHALL



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:26 pm

Some of his typed words….are these jokes???

"Have you read the last paragraph on the first page of the typed stuff?"

We are on the same page :shock:

Manalli definitely seemed to think he had some mental issues and was not afraid to mention them:



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:52 pm

Now this is really interesting. In this 1962 letter to Author Dan Curley,Manalli’s mentor(and man crush i think) ,Manalli asks Curley about a story of Curley’s called "THE MANHUNT"… The first thing I thought of, is this story like THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME???

I tried to search for the words,text, or storyline for THE MANHUNT, but I could not find it. But then I came across this book published in 1968 called STUDIES IN THE SHORT STORY.

Studies in the short story,
New York, Holt, Rinehart and Winston [1968]
Book : Fiction : English : 3d ed
pt. 1. Basic elements of fiction — Most dangerous game / Richard Connell ; And the rock cried out / Ray Bradbury ; The Manhunt / Daniel Curley ; The last day in the field / Caroline Gordon ; A Tree, a rock, a cloud / Carson McCullers — pt. 2. Point of view — The Horse Dealer’s Daughter / D. H. Lawrence ; What we don’t know hurts us / Mark Schorer ; Rain / W. Somerset Maugham ; The girls in their summer dresses / Irwin Shaw — pt. 3. Honesty and dishonesty in fiction –De Mortuis / John Collier ; The Lottery / Shirley Jackson ; Necklace / Guy de Maupassant — pt. 4. Symbol — Girl / Meridel Le Sueur ; Portable phonograph / Walter Van Tilburg Clark ; Good country people / Flannery O’Connor ; Flowering Judas / Katherine Anne Porter — Pt. 5. Humor, satire, and fantasy — Catbird seat / James Thurber ; First Confession / Frank O’Connor ; Forks / J.F. Powers ; Other side of the hedge / E. M. Forster ; Adam and Eve and Pinch me ; A. E. Coppard — pt. 6. Theme and variation — Leader of the people / John Steinbeck ; That evening sun / William Faulkner ; Absolution / F.Scott Fitzgerald ; Short happy life of Francis Macomber / Ernest Hemingway — pt. 7. More stories for study — Tell-tale heart / Edgar Allen Poe ; My Kinsman, Major Molineux / Nathaniel Hawthorne ; Bartleby / Herman Melville ; Lament / Anton Chekhov ; Real Thing / Henry James; Herart of Darkness/ Joseph Conrad ; Open Boat / Stephen Crane; Gentleman from San Francisco / Ivan Bunin ; Little Cloud / James Joyce ; Petrified man / Eudora Welty ; Goodbye, my brother / John Cheever; Unspoiled reaction / Mary McCarthy ; Patented gate and the mean hamburger / Robert Penn Warren ; Who made yellow roses yellow? / John Updike ; Defender of the faith / Philip Roth

I have almost ZERO doubt that Manalli read this book. (if you knew the full extent of how Manalli was up Curley’s ass you would understand what I mean).And if he read everything in the book, then he read about THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME 😯



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:59 pm

Is this a simple typo from manalli for the word CHRISTMAS?

You can actually see that he corrected it, and then still misspelled it.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:04 pm

:shock: wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:07 pm

:shock: wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

Yeah that definitely jumped out at me too.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:21 am

Manalli using one of Zodiac’s favorite words, SHALL

One more for the collection from Manalli-



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:32 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:36 am

When was that written?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:37 am



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:41 am

When was that written?

not sure



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:09 am

Ahhhhh don’t even have to explain these anymore lol.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:02 am

Zodiac & Manalli comparisons again-



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:10 am

Manalli using one of Zodiac’s favorite words, SHALL

One more for the collection from Manalli-

and another couple-

Alot of people wondered if Z was of english heritage because of his use of the word ‘shall’. Somebody,like Manalli, reading as much books & writings of so many english authors,would definitely be exposed to the word



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:35 am

Found a piece typed by Manalli…

"so that I an commit murder and be done with this shit; go down with hands on people’s throats" written by him 12/12/69. I dont have access to a scanner now,so I will post it later tonight



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:47 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:59 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

Stanley Clitoris… (giggle)

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:02 am

Is this a simple typo from manalli for the word CHRISTMAS?

You can actually see that he corrected it, and then still misspelled it.

Chris Y has a lengthy discussion of Zodiac portmanteaus on his board.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:05 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Suffice it to say that my hair is sufficiently on end.

Seagull, I know you have reservations about posting all of this material, but is there some way you could set up a (non-downloadable) account so we can view more than a few snippets at a time?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:08 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

Stanley Clitoris… (giggle)

Chortle hehehe.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:12 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Suffice it to say that my hair is sufficiently on end.

Seagull, I know you have reservations about posting all of this material, but is there some way you could set up a (non-downloadable) account so we can view more than a few snippets at a time?

I just sent it to Trav. Hopefully he or Seagull can post just that segment of the writing without posting the entire thing



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:22 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:37 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:42 am

Ok I don’t know exactly what these might imply.

Might this cause someone to walk in a certain way?

I can’t decide if this is an analogy or not but would welcome guesses as to what ms is.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:43 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?

Its out of the blue. The line before that, he mentions that he was painting "a lovely centrifuge thing"

In a letter dated 12/18/70, Manalli mentions ‘Fainting spells’. Are they blackouts???

In another letter, he mentions needing money for a new set of tires which made me think of what Ken Narlow stated about the tire tracks at Berryessa,somebody that didnt have money to buy new tires.



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:45 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

To be published in 1984 (the fall no less), and he died in 1976? Wasn’t exactly rushing things along eh? When was this written?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:45 am

Ok I don’t know exactly what these might imply.

Might this cause someone to walk in a certain way?

I can’t decide if this is an analogy or not but would welcome guesses as to what ms is.

he is talking about a "twisted vertabrae" which affected his heart,brain,and blood pressure,and caused the fainting spells.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:46 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?

Looking at it in context it may be what he suggests his painting might mean, as in what you might interpret from looking at it.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:48 am

he is talking about a "twisted vertabrae" which affected his heart,brain,and blood pressure,and caused the fainting spells.

Hmm sounds like a multitude of problems, some of which might make you "shaky" on occassion.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:51 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?

Looking at it in context it may be what he suggests his painting might mean, as in what you might interpret from looking at it.

I dont know, maybe. If all of his writing comparisons, the Joyce stuff,etc didnt look so much like Z, then I wouldn’t be so suspicious of it. The fact it sounds alot like the Belli letter is creepy



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:01 am

I dont know, maybe. If all of his writing comparisons, the Joyce stuff,etc didnt look so much like Z, then I wouldn’t be so suspicious of it. The fact it sounds alot like the Belli letter is creepy

Good point about the Belli letter. I was thinking that before when he quoted the Beatles "Help me if you can I’m feeling down". As for looking like Z in what he writes, there’s zynchrocitiy on tap and them some. What creeps me out is that a lot of the stuff he writes that’s like that makes sense in the context of what Zodiac wrote and usually provides a pretty instant correlation in your head.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:59 am

I dont know, maybe. If all of his writing comparisons, the Joyce stuff,etc didnt look so much like Z, then I wouldn’t be so suspicious of it. The fact it sounds alot like the Belli letter is creepy

Good point about the Belli letter. I was thinking that before when he quoted the Beatles "Help me if you can I’m feeling down". As for looking like Z in what he writes, there’s zynchrocitiy on tap and them some. What creeps me out is that a lot of the stuff he writes that’s like that makes sense in the context of what Zodiac wrote and usually provides a pretty instant correlation in your head.

If he just made a comment about his art being lethal or something to that effect,it would seem really harmless, or if he said God help people that see my art,etc But the fact he said ‘GOD SAVE ME’ and then added the part about ‘before I kill more’…thats more than chilling in my book…he is saying that he has killed before. Is he being honest? How long after the murder he was a suspect in,was this letter written?


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
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traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:44 pm

I’m just thinking. I wonder if there’s anything in the fact that he wrote kill more rather than kill again, I would have said again rather than more if it had been me.

Hmmm "….There will be more"



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:10 pm

Not sure if he was lying,just joking,or was telling the truth,but Manalli is the only POI linked to the Zodiac case that has ever stated that he killed people. Am I correct?



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:27 pm

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

How could Manalli publish a book in the fall 1984 when he died in 1976?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:31 pm

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

How could Manalli publish a book in the fall 1984 when he died in 1976?

Maybe a typo? Probably meant 74 or 64,I dont know,but Manalli was writing this guy since 1959 until his death



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:33 pm

TF, my thought on that is Manalli is referencing George Orwell’s novel 1984 in some manner. There is no doubt that Manalli was a heavy reader so that would make sense. I read 1984 too many years ago to remember what the Fall of that year was about.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:14 pm

Seagull, any luck with that Paradise book by Manalli? I can see some of the pages here-
http://books.google.com/books?id=364nAQ … CDsQ6AEwAQ



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Ed Neil posted this on an old archived zk thread:
"Carlstedt mentioned Manalli (though not by name) in the 3-5-1989 Press-Democrat story. I don’t know much about him other than the few tidbits in the paper, and whatever was mentioned in the blue book (and we all know how accurate that author is when it comes to reporting the truth)"

Anybody have that article?



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:29 pm

TF, my thought on that is Manalli is referencing George Orwell’s novel 1984 in some manner. There is no doubt that Manalli was a heavy reader so that would make sense. I read 1984 too many years ago to remember what the Fall of that year was about.

A typo?, or Ray Bradbury’s 1984? maybe…

Do you happen to know Manalli’s address/adresses in the timeframe 1963-1976 ?

And I remember reading somwere, a cupple of years ago, that after Manalli’s death, even though that Santa Rosa police suspected him in at least Kim Allen’s death, they would NOT go further with the investigation due to that "his family had be through enough" and that " they didn’t want to cause the family further pain" , or somthing to that effect.

OK I just found it in my filels (dated: 21-08-2008), but I didn’t add any link to the info, so I don’t know where I found it, or who wrote it:

"I recently found the name of that Santa Rosa Junior College arts instructor who had drawings of the murdered coeds in hog tied in sexual positions,the same man who was killed as a result from a car accident on Hwy 12 between Santa Rosa and Sebastapol:Fred Manalli. His name was mentioned from a old newspaper article,which is not available online or even from books,however. What is so bizzare about Fred Manalli aka Santa Rosa Junior College arts teacher ,from what I read on "Zodiac Unmasked" about him,is that he drew sketches of Kim Wendy Allen in a sadomasochistic pose,and himself being flogged with whips and chains. A missing item belonging to Kim Allen other than her clothing and a earring-a backpack. During itemizing the property found within the teachers automobile was a backpack that was owned by one of the Sonoma victims. Allen owned a backpack listed as missing,so it must of been hers. Why wasn’t the teacher held as a potential suspect even after his death? According to Sonoma Sheriffs Dept,not everything was itemized.only the items found in his pockets was returned to his next of kin. Most of this very conspicious evidence,if not concrete,was dropped for any further investigation by Sonoma Sheriffs Dept because they felt in no position to ruin Manalli’s reputation,for his family’s sake. What were investigators keeping back on this case?"

I really wonder why Manalli´s connection to the Kim W Allen murder case was covered up?

Do you have any information about this Seagull?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:32 pm

I’ve usps mailed my request for Paradise and haven’t heard anything yet.

I have the 1989 article but it is difficult to read. I have it scanned but will crop it for posting.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:43 pm

Foreigner, he had one main address at 428 8th st in Santa Rosa. He had also lived in San Fran too in the early to mid 60’s. Here is a listing for him & his wife in 66-
http://www.sfgenealogy.com/sanfrancisco … 6_1225.pdf

and here from 64… http://www.sfgenealogy.com/sanfrancisco … 4_2488.pdf

And here is a pic of his Santa Rosa house sent by TRAV:

Peek thru the Pines anybody?? Actually had a chuckle about that with Trav last night,and after some research determined that some pine tree species grow at 2 feet per year. I guess its hard to know how old those trees are,but I dont think they were that high when he lived there. But if they were,then ‘peek thru the pines’ would be interesting



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:53 pm

It would be although personally, until I know better, the provenance of the pines comment remains with the pines card and the locations mentioned on it.

Deb,

Was Manalli’s connection to the SRHM discovered before or after his death?

TF – thanks for posting, interesting stuff.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:59 pm

TF, my thought on that is Manalli is referencing George Orwell’s novel 1984 in some manner. There is no doubt that Manalli was a heavy reader so that would make sense. I read 1984 too many years ago to remember what the Fall of that year was about.

A typo?, or Ray Bradbury’s 1984? maybe…

Do you happen to know Manalli’s address/adresses in the timeframe 1963-1976 ?

And I remember reading somwere, a cupple of years ago, that after Manalli’s death, even though that Santa Rosa police suspected him in at least Kim Allen’s death, they would NOT go further with the investigation due to that "his family had be through enough" and that " they didn’t want to cause the family further pain" , or somthing to that effect.

OK I just found it in my filels (dated: 21-08-2008), but I didn’t add any link to the info, so I don’t know where I found it, or who wrote it:

"I recently found the name of that Santa Rosa Junior College arts instructor who had drawings of the murdered coeds in hog tied in sexual positions,the same man who was killed as a result from a car accident on Hwy 12 between Santa Rosa and Sebastapol:Fred Manalli. His name was mentioned from a old newspaper article,which is not available online or even from books,however. What is so bizzare about Fred Manalli aka Santa Rosa Junior College arts teacher ,from what I read on "Zodiac Unmasked" about him,is that he drew sketches of Kim Wendy Allen in a sadomasochistic pose,and himself being flogged with whips and chains. A missing item belonging to Kim Allen other than her clothing and a earring-a backpack. During itemizing the property found within the teachers automobile was a backpack that was owned by one of the Sonoma victims. Allen owned a backpack listed as missing,so it must of been hers. Why wasn’t the teacher held as a potential suspect even after his death? According to Sonoma Sheriffs Dept,not everything was itemized.only the items found in his pockets was returned to his next of kin. Most of this very conspicious evidence,if not concrete,was dropped for any further investigation by Sonoma Sheriffs Dept because they felt in no position to ruin Manalli’s reputation,for his family’s sake. What were investigators keeping back on this case?"

I really wonder why Manalli´s connection to the Kim W Allen murder case was covered up?

Do you have any information about this Seagull?

Some of that post is correct, most is speculation. I am always suspicious of people who post things like that with no documentation or references and tend to think that they let their imaginations run away with what little is true.

I have posted before that there were sketches found among Manalli’s belongings. They were found in his home and not his automobile. As a matter of fact he had a van not a car. The drawings were found by his ex-wife and a man named Don Emblen who were cleaning out his home sometime after his death. They were the people who turned the drawings over to the sheriff’s department. I do not know how they knew the drawings were of Kim Allen unless they had been labled in some way. I confirmed this information with Butch Carlstedt when I spoke with him in about 2006.

Manalli’s parents lived in Illinois it’s hard to imagine that ruining Manalli’s reputation in California would have much effect on his parents. I believe that the main reason Manalli was not named is because he was dead and the dead can not defend themselves. There may have been a reasonable explanation for the drawings but since he is not alive to answer to that he can not named as the suspect. Maybe the parents were informed of the suspicions either by LE or the ex-wife and told LE they would sue if Fred’s name surfaced, accused of being a murderer. I just don’t know for sure.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:10 pm

"Another suspect, Siebe said, was
a middle-aged, married man who
died in a traffic accident in the 70’s.
In investigating the death,
detectives found evidence that
showed the man knew about the
murders. But there wasn’t enough
evidence to close the case, Siebe
said.
Carlstedt believes that man and
another man also dead, were
responsible for al least most of the
murders.
"After those two guys died, there
was nothing. No more female
homicide. I’d bet money it was
them, but it can never be proven
."

Seagull,I found the text of the article. Did Carlstedt sound as convinced to you of Manalli’s guilt as he sounds in this article? And do you know the name of this 2nd man that Carlstedt thought had killed some of the girls?



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Ok I don’t know exactly what these might imply.

Might this cause someone to walk in a certain way?

I can’t decide if this is an analogy or not but would welcome guesses as to what ms is.

he is talking about a "twisted vertabrae" which affected his heart,brain,and blood pressure,and caused the fainting spells.

Wow, I’ve been gone a few days and come back to "Zodiac killer mystery solved." Not sure whether I’m kidding about that or not! Pretty remarkable stuff here. :cheers:

I am nearly certain "ms" is shorthand for "manuscript." He was an English teacher and writer wasn’t he?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:21 pm

Yeah he was a writer, and English teacher. Also, plays too I think.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:39 pm

Ahhh good call on manuscript, makes sense.

EDIT: Just to add, other than the literary end of things this guy was artistic with his hands as well. I wonder how well drawn those drawings were. Is it possible they were good enough for the girl to be recognised. Also, he bought thrift store furniture and ‘done it up’ so he seems to be a bit of an all rounder creatively or at least a varied experimenter, oh and there’s the paintings too. That would be in line with my suspicions about Zodiac creative nature.



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Yeah he was a writer, and English teacher. Also, plays too I think.

It has to be ms=manuscript, especially since that fits the context of what was written.

Sounds like he exchanged his proof-reading/editing skills for something in return with "her."



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:33 pm

"Another suspect, Siebe said, was
a middle-aged, married man who
died in a traffic accident in the 70’s.
In investigating the death,
detectives found evidence that
showed the man knew about the
murders. But there wasn’t enough
evidence to close the case, Siebe
said.
Carlstedt believes that man and
another man also dead, were
responsible for al least most of the
murders.
"After those two guys died, there
was nothing. No more female
homicide. I’d bet money it was
them, but it can never be proven
."

Seagull,I found the text of the article. Did Carlstedt sound as convinced to you of Manalli’s guilt as he sounds in this article? And do you know the name of this 2nd man that Carlstedt thought had killed some of the girls?

Thanks for the adresses Morf:)

And thanks for the response Seagull:)

Concerning your question that I highlighted in red:

I belive it is possible that the man in question might be:

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Phillip S Griffith
Name: Phillip S Griffith
Social Security #: 565648856
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 16 Jan 1947
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma

WHY do I belive that?

Because:

Phillip S Griffith was only 29 years old and died the very same day as Fred Mannali
Phillip S Griffith died the very same Death Place: Sonoma, as Fred Manalli
Phillip S Griffith was originally from Illinois, just like Fred Manalli
Phillip S Griffith divorced in Sonoma county in 1974

SO…I belive that it is possible that Phillip S Griffith was in the same car/van as Fred Manalli.

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Phillip S Griffith
Name: Phillip S Griffith
Social Security #: 565648856
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 16 Jan 1947
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma

Social Security Death Index
about Phillip Griffith
Name: Phillip Griffith
SSN: 565-64-8856
Born: 16 Jan 1947
Died: Aug 1976
State (Year) SSN issued: California (1962

BUT, then again… I might be wrong about this possible connection…



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:47 pm

Good job TF.

Although..and I could be wrong here…wasn’t it only Manalli that died in the crash? and the passenger survived.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:50 pm

Griffith was in a motorcycle accident in a different part of Sonoma County. Manalli was the only one in his vehicle, the woman he hit was not killed.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:02 pm

whilst we’re on the subject of vehicles. Although at the time of his death Manalli had a van, in one of his letters in reference to "Wolfey’s" preferred mode of transport being a motorbike Manalli says that as for him he "brandished cars".

I thought that was slightly interesting in so much as it’s another reference to something whereby Manalli describes something as though it were a weapon as he did when describing a pen.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:30 pm

Some more misc. Manalli quotes that may be of interest. These all have to do with his mental & physical shape and conditions as reported by him.

Trav asked, could any of these medical issues make Manalli walk a bit weird? Also, regarding his ‘fainting spells’, could they be some sort of black outs?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:37 pm

This post will contain all of Manallis threats, violent statements, or his discussion of violent acts:

Best for last:

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:48 am

About the "lovely centrifuge thing" that would have made Blake envious – here’s some of William Blake’s illustrations of John Milton’s Paradise Lost. Check out the first one down on the right side of the page, titled Satan Watching the Endearments of Adam and Eve. Familiar theme?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake%27s_illustrations_of_Paradise_Lost

Some of the Santa Rosa girls were thrown down embankments and some posters were speculating on how the killer could have managed to throw them so far from the road, is this right? If so, the answer could be by using centrifugal force from swinging them around and round, by the wrists or ankles, then letting go when he got going fast enough. If the victim has been hog-tied, then just need to loop a rope through the bindings, hold onto both rope ends while swinging, then let go of one end of the rope when the body is released. Any reasonably fit adult male could do that, provided there was enough space. Maybe 20 – 25 feet? I guess that could count as "creative", as Manalli writes? Definitely "centrifugal".



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:13 am

Since it hasn’t been said, I guess I’ll mention it here.

FM’s "God save me – catch me before I kill more."

Made me think of fellow Illinoisian the so-called Lipstick Killer:

Thinking about it in the context of the message it’s in, he’s talking about how he’s not able to write or come up with anything creative. I think it could be a clever (demented) way of saying that he’s killing time.

Which made me think of: "In 1959 a lot of people were killing time. Kit and Holly were killing people."



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:22 pm

Moving right along,yet another possible connection between Manalli & Zodiac….

In this statement by Manalli-

He mentions that his artwork would have made BLAKE envious. Is he talking about famed writer & artists, William Blake??? Because,if he is, William Blake’s name has come up before in Zodiac discussions.

Here’s one example-
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showth … p?t=119051
In the link, AKWILKS is discussing Blake with other people. AK wrote:
" I never thought that the Zodiac 340 First Stage Solution (from Robert Graysmith-1979 FBI File-Kite And Other Old ZK Board Researchers) showed possible influences from poet William Blake, in particular from this poem, until you mentioned it"



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:49 pm

Someone has trouble with at least one double.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:08 am

Yes, Manalli must be talking about William Blake; otherwise he would have included the first name of whatever other Blake he meant so as not to confuse. In this writing Morf posted above, though, he’s talking about something he painted. I’m thinking it’s something like the picture that was found among his things that supposedly depicted one of the Santa Rosa hitchhikers.

Okay, my idea about the centrifuge method of tossing someone over an embankment might be kinda ridiculous. :oops: "Centrifugal" and "centripetal" are words used by Northrop Frye to describe his style. He was a Canadian literary critic who lived from 1912 to 1991 and was heavily inspired by William Blake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Frye
Maybe that’s what Manalli meant.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:24 am

In this writing Morf posted above, though, he’s talking about something he painted. I’m thinking it’s something like the picture that was found among his things that supposedly depicted one of the Santa Rosa hitchhikers.

Thats really good.

I think this letter in which he talks about painting was from July 31,1970. Any Santa Rosa area victims from around that date,or just before? And what do you think he means when he says "I am not going to send it to you-it might mean something"?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:33 am

In one of his letters, Manalli mentions ‘slaves’. No mention of afterlife….He says something like "the guy has released one of his slaves"(something like that). I dont have it in front of me,but I have it set aside to be posted tonight. Also found a couple more instances of him using the word ‘shall’. Show me any other Zodiac POI or Suspect that uses the word SHALL as much as this guy.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:36 am

Yes, 6’3" is too tall and at 185# he wouldn’t have had a big stomach. Nor does he look a bit Welsh. :lol:

He looks good for murder in Sonoma County but not Zodiac.

I’m just quoting Deb for this one because her comment was about weight and this is relevant.

Manalli:

"with rare exceptions, I’ve grown a bit flabby – you probably wouldn’t recognize me – to the point that I’ve taken up hula-hooping. I’m not very good though. Just don’t have that motion. I trust that you won’t find too much flabbiness in my prose"



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:40 am

I think this letter in which he talks about painting was from July 31,1970. Any Santa Rosa area victims from around that date,or just before?

Not within the SRHM anyway. They were 72-73.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:46 am

Yes, 6’3" is too tall and at 185# he wouldn’t have had a big stomach. Nor does he look a bit Welsh. :lol:

He looks good for murder in Sonoma County but not Zodiac.

I’m just quoting Deb for this one because her comment was about weight and this is relevant.

Manalli:

"with rare exceptions, I’ve grown a bit flabby – you probably wouldn’t recognize me – to the point that I’ve taken up hula-hooping. I’m not very good though. Just don’t have that motion. I trust that you won’t find too much flabbiness in my prose"

I am trying NOT to get caught up in seeing if the various Zodiac POI’s or suspects look like the Zodiac description. I am looking rather at things that match up from other standpoints as far as writing,demands & hopes of being published,or being ‘seen’ by the public in some way. And most of all, state of mind. It can NOT be debated, Manalli discussed murder,violence,etc in his letters. Was he trying to sound dramatic,like a mysterious writer? Not sure,but the threats & statements he makes cant be ignored.Zodiac or not,this guy may have killed people. And how about his constant mention of his deteriorating mental health,writing that he has mental issues. At one point, Mr. Curley even writes to him, "something seems to have happened to your psyche".

6ft3,DOES seem to be taller than all Zodiac descriptions(still shorter than Hartnell). But if he did put on some weight,that would be more in line. Also, glasses are a plus,but again,I really have given up on just looking at suspect’s physcial descriptions. If they math up with Z,and also look like the sketch,teriffic.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:47 am

I think this letter in which he talks about painting was from July 31,1970. Any Santa Rosa area victims from around that date,or just before?

Not within the SRHM anyway. They were 72-73.

Any other possible victims from summer of 70 that he may have ‘painted’



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:34 am

How about March 1970?

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ienne-blau



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:48 am

How about March 1970?

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ienne-blau

Rope marks on the wrists,no sexual assault. Whats your feeling on the Blau case?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:10 am

The one article says that Eva was not sexually assault not that she didn’t have sex. She could have had consentual sex and maybe a condom was worn.

I think that Eva death was very suspicious but after it was learned she had been a drug addict and that drugs were probably involved with her death it seems like LE quit investigating. The cause of death was given as a mescaline overdose but she still had food in her stomach. Mescaline is known for making the user vomit after ingestion so that seems a bit weird.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:22 am

:shock: wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:35 am

Found this post by Howard Davis on an old thread:

"I am researching the possibility that "rh" could stand for R.H.Blyth,a poet that lived in Japan, who promulgated an Oriental form of poetry called Haiku.
There were groups in S.F.,Berkeley,Los Angeles and elsewhere,that were very interested in R.H.s work and the Haiku form of poetry in the 60’s.
I have several reasons for holding this premise up for inspection,but I am ready to drop it PDQ!I want to see what you think.
The Haiku could explain the unusual structure and content of the desk poem and that mysterious rh at the end.
We do know Z was into the Mikado,a play with a Japanese background.There is that oriental like character in the 1/29/74 note"

If Manalli mentioned BLYTH in one of his letters,that would be interesting.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:01 am

I was curious so I thought I’d see what this looked like. The height thing I can’t account for but I wouldn’t let facial features rule him out. I can see similarities. Particularly regarding the nose on the composite. If you look at it logically the I think the composite is trying to depict a long (or more on the long side than the short) nose and that would fit with Manalli. I’ve long pondered the nose thing as I’m sure we all have and wondered what the profile would look like.

It makes sense to me that the nose should have more of a pronounced profile than not because going by the length in the composite a flat nose at that length would look really weird.

His chin is interesting as well. It’s a reasonably robust looking thing with a mound and a dimple. A feature that usually has the effect of making someone look heavy set or a ‘bit of a bruiser’ (think Marv in Sin City).

Last but not least, the glasses. I can attest to the fact that wearing thick rimmed glasses can do two relevant things to a person appearence. Providing a stronger focal point than the features, they can detract from things like a prominent nose or heavy eyebrows.

EDIT: Bear in mind this image is from 1957



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:15 am

FWIW

July 31 1970 – One year anniversary of the first zodiac letters, July 31 1969



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:20 am

Curly and circle dots anyone?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:27 am

Trav,I agree, nothing to account for a height difference,but I did note the same similar facial features and of course,noted of Manalli’s mention of his ‘weight gain’. Would like to see if he has glasses in any of his photos. I am trying(its a longshot)to get a photo of him from 1968-1976.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:38 am

It would be good to see another photo – Good luck.

So….though I’d try and focus on the more unique features of Zodiacs writing. Can’t get more unique than a one-off (you will excuse the pun). I thought this would prove elusive as it’s a unique ampersand from Zodiac and I was pretty sure I’d seen all of Manalli’s and didn’t recall any looking like it.

I was right…but then….AWWW come on Freddie, what are you doing to me. As in the regular zodiac ampersand a similarly constructed letter was found rather then an ampersand, it was Manalli’s lowecase t’s. This time it’s an O and as far as I can tell it’s a one off for Him as well.

Direction and flow very similar.

BTW I’m posting snippets as it were, not because I’m running out of similarities, on the contrary, there are too many and many more to come. I’m just having trouble with where to start lol.

EDIT: That ampersand is from page 2 of the bus bomb letter BTW



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:42 am

I also liked the half w’s you posted that seem to be very similar between Zodiac & Manalli



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:44 am

Yes, they just keep coming don’t they.

I’m trying to make it harder for myself to find things but Freddie is being "too clever" for me lol. :D



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:38 pm

RE: Glasses

I think we only know for sure that Zodiac wore glasses at the Stine killing. It’s possible that he did not wear glasses all the time or at all in his everyday life. As Trav said in an earlier post the glasses could have been worn by Zodiac as a focal diversion from his facial features.

With Manalli having taught at San Quentin Prison I have no doubt that he learned a thing or two about criminal activity. Disguises, even as simple as wearing glasses, may have been discussed or written about by one of his prisoner students. Manalli taught basic english and writing classes and as I recall teachers say to write what you know.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:00 pm

RE: Glasses

I think we only know for sure that Zodiac wore glasses at the Stine killing. It’s possible that he did not wear glasses all the time or at all in his everyday life. As Trav said in an earlier post the glasses could have been worn by Zodiac as a focal diversion from his facial features.

With Manalli having taught at San Quentin Prison I have no doubt that he learned a thing or two about criminal activity. Disguises, even as simple as wearing glasses, may have been discussed or written about by one of his prisoner students. Manalli taught basic english and writing classes and as I recall teachers say to write what you know.

Good points Seagull. Personally, I think whomever Z was, he likely wore glasses. I base that not just on the fact of the Stine sketch,but also at Berryessa,he apprently had clipson sunglasses over his regulare glasses. I dont know if Z would need to wear fake glasses if he already had a mask on his face. Then again,maybe he was thinking ahead in case his mask somehow came off and he wanted some insurance. The mystery guy seen by the Berryessa girls(if that guy was indeed Zodiac)did not have glasses. I dont have the report in front of me,but didnt somebody describe him as being 6ft-6ft2??



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:29 pm

RE: Glasses

I think we only know for sure that Zodiac wore glasses at the Stine killing. It’s possible that he did not wear glasses all the time or at all in his everyday life. As Trav said in an earlier post the glasses could have been worn by Zodiac as a focal diversion from his facial features.

With Manalli having taught at San Quentin Prison I have no doubt that he learned a thing or two about criminal activity. Disguises, even as simple as wearing glasses, may have been discussed or written about by one of his prisoner students. Manalli taught basic english and writing classes and as I recall teachers say to write what you know.

Good points Seagull. Personally, I think whomever Z was, he likely wore glasses. I base that not just on the fact of the Stine sketch,but also at Berryessa,he apprently had clipson sunglasses over his regulare glasses. I dont know if Z would need to wear fake glasses if he already had a mask on his face. Then again,maybe he was thinking ahead in case his mask somehow came off and he wanted some insurance. The mystery guy seen by the Berryessa girls(if that guy was indeed Zodiac)did not have glasses. I dont have the report in front of me,but didnt somebody describe him as being 6ft-6ft2??

You can take it straight from Hartnell…Zodiac did not appear to be wearing glasses on his head. Any other reports are second-hand info, and misinterpreted.

If Bryan could see the guys hair, I would think he would see regular glasses. Seems he was looking quite closely. Mike as well in 1969 reported "no glasses".



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:54 pm

What Tahoe said!



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:22 pm

OKAY,so we are looking for a guy that either DID or DID NOT wear glasses. That narrows it down :P



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:31 pm

I was curious so I thought I’d see what this looked like. The height thing I can’t account for but I wouldn’t let facial features rule him out. I can see similarities. Particularly regarding the nose on the composite. If you look at it logically the I think the composite is trying to depict a long (or more on the long side than the short) nose and that would fit with Manalli. I’ve long pondered the nose thing as I’m sure we all have and wondered what the profile would look like.

It makes sense to me that the nose should have more of a pronounced profile than not because going by the length in the composite a flat nose at that length would look really weird.

His chin is interesting as well. It’s a reasonably robust looking thing with a mound and a dimple. A feature that usually has the effect of making someone look heavy set or a ‘bit of a bruiser’ (think Marv in Sin City).

Last but not least, the glasses. I can attest to the fact that wearing thick rimmed glasses can do two relevant things to a person appearence. Providing a stronger focal point than the features, they can detract from things like a prominent nose or heavy eyebrows.

EDIT: Bear in mind this image is from 1957

For what its worth, the 3 girls at Berryessa described the mystery guy watching them as being 6ft-6ft2,certainly closer to Manalli’s height(if the guy the girls seen was zodiac)
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:48 pm

What do you all think about Manalli’s voice? Would someone in their thirties who learned to speak in Illinois sound similar to what is known about Zodiac’s voice.

Reportedly, Zodiac sounded young (early 20s; Manalli was early 30s); he had some type drawl. He may have sounded similar to Richard Gaikowski (based on Nancy the dispatcher’s remembrance).

What have I left out concerning voice?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:07 pm

What do you all think about Manalli’s voice? Would someone in their thirties who learned to speak in Illinois sound similar to what is known about Zodiac’s voice.

Reportedly, Zodiac sounded young (early 20s; Manalli was early 30s); he had some type drawl. He may have sounded similar to Richard Gaikowski (based on Nancy the dispatcher’s remembrance).

What have I left out concerning voice?

Yeah,I think Hartnell described his voice as being like a student’s, and Officer Slaight said Z sounded like he was early 20’s. I wish there was a recording of Manalli, not that it will prove anything. Unfortunately, the ‘voice’ is probably the least valuable clue about Zodiac. Three people talked to him 43 years ago. One of them is dead. Not sure how reliable voice recognition would be now.

I am not sold on Manalli being Zodiac. I need more evidence,but his writing style,construction,and subject matter reminds me alot of Zodiac. He’s definitely got my attention. On the other hand, I have alot of respect for Sherwood’s handwriting examination,and he states without a doubt, that Zodiac wrote the desktop poem and Bates letters,therefore whomever Zodiac was, he HAD TO BE in Riverside 66-67.I also have respect for Traveler’s first class writing comparison between Zodiac,and the desktop,and he made me believe that the desktop poem WAS FROM ZODIAC. I have seen Zero evidence that Manalli ever was there. In addition,I personally lean towards Zodiac killing Bates & writing the letters, and personally,I think her killer was around her age of 18 in fall of 1966,and therefore would have been around 21 or 22 in fall of 69 when Z was killing,and would line up well with the voice descriptions from Slaight & Hartnell. Remember, there was a driver in 1970 that terrorized female drivers in Santa Rosa that was very much like the Johns case. The Santa Rosa police said he was 23, and from Vallejo. They let him go. He would also line up well with a fellow classmate of Cheri’s. I have 3 top suspects,one being Manalli,one being ‘Jimmy’, and the third being ‘Al’. The first two I cant place in Riverside. The third,I can place in Riverside in 66-67 and in Vallejo up to 74,so thats what I have to wrestle with.



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:28 pm

What do you all think about Manalli’s voice? Would someone in their thirties who learned to speak in Illinois sound similar to what is known about Zodiac’s voice.

Reportedly, Zodiac sounded young (early 20s; Manalli was early 30s); he had some type drawl. He may have sounded similar to Richard Gaikowski (based on Nancy the dispatcher’s remembrance).

What have I left out concerning voice?

Yeah,I think Hartnell described his voice as being like a student’s, and Officer Slaight said Z sounded like he was early 20’s. I wish there was a recording of Manalli, not that it will prove anything. Unfortunately, the ‘voice’ is probably the least valuable clue about Zodiac. Three people talked to him 43 years ago. One of them is dead. Not sure how reliable voice recognition would be now.

I am not sold on Manalli being Zodiac. I need more evidence,but his writing style,construction,and subject matter reminds me alot of Zodiac. He’s definitely got my attention. On the other hand, I have alot of respect for Sherwood’s handwriting examination,and he states without a doubt, that Zodiac wrote the desktop poem and Bates letters,therefore whomever Zodiac was, he HAD TO BE in Riverside 66-67.I also have respect for Traveler’s first class writing comparison between Zodiac,and the desktop,and he made me believe that the desktop poem WAS FROM ZODIAC. I have seen Zero evidence that Manalli ever was there. In addition,I personally lean towards Zodiac killing Bates & writing the letters, and personally,I think her killer was around her age of 18 in fall of 1966,and therefore would have been around 21 or 22 in fall of 69 when Z was killing,and would line up well with the voice descriptions from Slaight & Hartnell. Remember, there was a driver in 1970 that terrorized female drivers in Santa Rosa that was very much like the Johns case. The Santa Rosa police said he was 23, and from Vallejo. They let him go. He would also line up well with a fellow classmate of Cheri’s. I have 3 top suspects,one being Manalli,one being ‘Jimmy’, and the third being ‘Al’. The first two I cant place in Riverside. The third,I can place in Riverside in 66-67 and in Vallejo up to 74,so thats what I have to wrestle with.

I would totally agree with the theory that Cheri Jo Bates’ killer was her age, likely a student, and how that and more tallies with the statements you gave above.

As someone else stated somewhere on this board, I don’t think Manalli is likely Zodiac but then he seems good for some of the homicides in California at that time. What I find compelling about Manalli is his vast knowledge of English lit and how that corresponds to much of what the Zodiac wrote; I also see a lot of similarities in Manalli’s writing (as much as a layman can do so via an Internet copy of, probably, third or fourth generation copies. :lol: )

Sounds like you have three good possibilities.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:53 pm

What I recall abou Z voice was flat no accent no drawl monotone robotic measured even yong student twenties. IMO the killer of Bates would likely have been 19 to 25 much older or young and he would not have fit into the environment.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:06 pm

It seems weird to me to not investigate someone who is possibly a multiple murderer because they are dead and it might embarrass their family. The feelings of the victims families seems more important to me.

I’d like to believe that is not true. It is certainly a curious statement.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:50 pm

It seems weird to me to not investigate someone who is possibly a multiple murderer because they are dead and it might embarrass their family. The feelings of the victims families seems more important to me.

I’d like to believe that is not true. It is certainly a curious statement.

Manalli was suspected in at least one murder. I wonder what police would think if they saw these letters? The guy mentions multiple times murder or violence, along with his dwindling mental state.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:09 pm

When I first got these letters back in late 2010 I contacted the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Office and told them I had them and asked if they would like copies. They quickly said yes and I copied all and sent them. They were not aware that the letters exisited. Later when a discussion of DNA came up I asked if there was any chance that Manalli could be exhumed and his DNA compared to DNA gathered from the victims I was told it was a possiblity.

There was semen found on two of the SRHM victims, Kim Allen and Therese Walsh.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:13 pm

:shock: wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html

This thread also mentions ‘Lord Jim’ which I think Manalli said somewhere he was also reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Jim



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:16 pm

I still can’t believe that with the reported drawings of one of the SRHM victims and the backpack of one of them turning up in this guys car, that LE weren’t all over him like a rash, dead or not. I don’t suppose we know who’s backpack it was supposed to be do we?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:21 pm

Kim Allen was carrying a backpack. It is noted here-

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html

The last document on the page, item #5.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
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Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:42 pm

I still can’t believe that with the reported drawings of one of the SRHM victims and the backpack of one of them turning up in this guys car, that LE weren’t all over him like a rash, dead or not. I don’t suppose we know who’s backpack it was supposed to be do we?

The drawing and backpack were not found in Manalli’s van, they were found in his home by his ex-wife and Don Emblen. They were found weeks after Manalli’s death when his home was being cleared out. This is what Butch Carlstedt told me.

FWIW I have been told that the reason there was no publicity or announcement about Manalli’s possible involvement in Kim’s death is that SRJC did not want the negative publicity. I find that easier to believe than sparing Manalli’s parents any embarrassment or whatever. Remember Manalli could not be charged with anything, he was dead. He did not have a criminal record of any kind.



traveller1st, Subject: HANDWRITING Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:58 pm

A quick synopsis of where I am with this so far.

There’s a lot more to do for one lol.

I’m trying to find something to rule him but to be honest I think it may come down to the wire and be beyond my amateur tinkering. I’m looking at Zodiac’s less well known traits but that at least is something good to come from this. It’s made me see things that I will use for future comparisons against other POI’s writings.

This guy’s writing has had me all over the place. It’s like following a dwindling trail of breadcrumbs and when you think that’s it done you trip over a loaf. As far as the Zodiac’s missives are concerned Manalli’s writing has been like a missing link. It seems to contain elements from all of the missives even the little peculiarities. Every little weird line shift or letter or spacing, every little tick, flick or stroke – they all appear.

I thought I’d done it. I thought I’d finally found something that I couldn’t account for in the Zodiac stuff. I’ll illustrate it in later work but basically it’s a little flick that Manalli puts on the crossbar of his lowercase t’s. It’s pretty much a running theme through all his writing no matter what the style or year. I can find things that look like a flick but I can’t say for definite if it counts and given it’s prevalence in Manalli’s writing I would have expected it to be somewhere.

There is reasonable evidence for it in the citizen letter (more to come on that letter BTW) but as for the bulk of the Zodiac stuff, nothing that would qualify.

Until…….LOAF! dagnammit.

It’s in the Count Marco letter and it appears only once in the line "suggest you refer him to a shrink". It’s in the word "to". The reason that Manalli puts that flick on his l/c t’s (IMHO) is that it’s an active remnant from joining the t to the next letter. In the Marco letter the author does just that and yes…..Manalli does it too and it’s a match. There are other elements of the Marco letter that appear in Manalli’s handwriting – quite a few actually and we’re talking right down to the shape of the flicks on the end of some of the hand-drawn lines.

So that’s roughly where it’s at so far. There are other comparisons to come and have been started but seriously, another analogy, it’s like putting together multiple, mixed up, jigsaws. I’ll be working on one thing and then "oh, that’s from the dripping pen card" or "that’s from the citizen letter" etc etc, right across the whole range of styles.

Despite all of this, I’m still not convinced because we basically more compelling evidence of a different nature. Locations etc.

Sorry for the long post but I can’t convey enough how unusual this guy’s handwriting has been beyond mere visual similarities. Regardless of the outcome it’s been and continues to be very intriguing and a learning experience and in that respect I’d like to thank Deb again for procuring the letters.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:08 pm

I still can’t believe that with the reported drawings of one of the SRHM victims and the backpack of one of them turning up in this guys car, that LE weren’t all over him like a rash, dead or not. I don’t suppose we know who’s backpack it was supposed to be do we?

The drawing and backpack were not found in Manalli’s van, they were found in his home by his ex-wife and Don Emblen. They were found weeks after Manalli’s death when his home was being cleared out. This is what Butch Carlstedt told me.

FWIW I have been told that the reason there was no publicity or announcement about Manalli’s possible involvement in Kim’s death is that SRJC did not want the negative publicity. I find that easier to believe than sparing Manalli’s parents any embarrassment or whatever. Remember Manalli could not be charged with anything, he was dead. He did not have a criminal record of any kind.

Ah ok thanks Deb.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:19 pm

Kim Allen was carrying a backpack. It is noted here-

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html

The last document on the page, item #5.

Her backpack was found with her though so it can’t be the one found in Manalli’s house.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:00 pm

:shock: wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html

This thread also mentions ‘Lord Jim’ which I think Manalli said somewhere he was also reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Jim

Joseph Conrad IS mentioned by Manalli more than once in his letters. Conrad wrote LORD JIM & HEART OF DARKNESS.

So many writers & subjects mentioned by Manalli have been mentioned by people on zodiac forums already. People have seen the clues and have noted them. Now you have Manalli’s writing similarity to zodiac’s and his mentions of violence,murder,and his own mental health. He was a suspect in one or more Santa Rosa murders. You would be hard pressed to find another POI with all these tid bits



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:14 pm

Kim Allen was carrying a backpack. It is noted here-

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html

The last document on the page, item #5.

Her backpack was found with her though so it can’t be the one found in Manalli’s house.

No! That was a list of things that Kim was known to be wearing and carrying when she was last seen. She was found nude with none of her belongings. The only personal item she had on her person was one earring. All of the SRHM victims were found nude with none of their belongings present.

Read this.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.c … eport.html



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:22 pm

Seagull, wasnt there another victim or victims found missing one earring?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:24 pm

Ah of course.

lol, sorry it was just when I read the report it seemed so detailed I thought the items must have been in possession of LE. My bad. Trust me to overlook one of the main points about the crimes – naked bar one earring.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:33 pm

:shock: wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html

This thread also mentions ‘Lord Jim’ which I think Manalli said somewhere he was also reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Jim

Joseph Conrad IS mentioned by Manalli more than once in his letters. Conrad wrote LORD JIM & HEART OF DARKNESS.

So many writers & subjects mentioned by Manalli have been mentioned by people on zodiac forums already. People have seen the clues and have noted them. Now you have Manalli’s writing similarity to zodiac’s and his mentions of violence,murder,and his own mental health. He was a suspect in one or more Santa Rosa murders. You would be hard pressed to find another POI with all these tid bits

Doug Oswell wrote this:
"One thing that I would like to mention is that we didn’t get to literary allusion,
but both of these killers were very keenly into getting hints about themselves
through the use of literary works, great literary works like Joseph Conrad’s The
Secret Agent,
The Mikado, The Exorcist; Moby Dick, in the case of the Zodiac
killer, and particularly two of the Wagnerian classics, the Ring, and the opera,
Parsifal. Those were two operas. Interestingly, both killers alluded to opera."

Manalli mentioned Conrad,and Moby Dick in his letters



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:50 pm

You would be hard pressed to find another POI with all these tid bits

It would certainly seem that way. See what I mean about ‘missing link’ it’s like he fills in gaps. Even in other people’s theories that weren’t about him.

Lets not forget Shakespeare. "To thine own self be true"



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:59 pm

Seagull, wasnt there another victim or victims found missing one earring?

There was one earring found at the scene where Maureen Sterling and Yvonne Weber were found, also a necklace.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:03 pm

I was wondering about this.

The red what? uniform?

Anywho – thought shrinker was a slightly unusual term for a shrink so I googled. Found this. No connection and don’t think there’s anything that interesting about it other than it it’s from the right the right time period and "The Shrinker" is a villain.

CBS Saturday morning cartoon series from 1966

[flash(425,350)] http://www.youtube.com/v/fvKEZtGOvbc [/flash]



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:31 pm

I was wondering the same thing. RED PHANTOM perhaps?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:35 pm

Could be. Red with rage he was.

If red / clean?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:41 pm

The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word ‘the’, he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.

Yup, you’re right.

I’ve had a quick look and he does it for the words the, this, and that. Haven’t checked it all but that seems pretty much the case throughout. Actually it’s any word that starts with ‘th’.

This has changed – there is an instance of the word ‘this’ all lowercase. I’ll post it when I spot it again.

Found it.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:18 am

It’s odd to me that he never says anything about the Zodiac case. You’d think that the real killer would be obsessed with his own publicity. IIRC Denis Rader BTK was known to follow the news of his crimes, but his wife just thought he was some nut on a message board :tongue: a guy who just liked keeping up on the news.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:26 am

It’s odd to me that he never says anything about the Zodiac case. You’d think that the real killer would be obsessed with his own publicity. IIRC Denis Rader BTK was known to follow the news of his crimes, but his wife just thought he was some nut on a message board :tongue: a guy who just liked keeping up on the news.

I’d wondered about that too but then he rarely mentions anything outside of himself in his letters. It’s all about him, which for my money, works just as well if you’re a serial killer. There’s also the fact that the drawing and backpack and wot not were unearthed in his house after he was dead so maybe he just didn’t like to share everything?

Of course there’s always the possibility that he did mention the Zodiac. Just that he only did it in those special letters to the newspapers lol :D

EDIT: Actually thinking about it, the letters we have are centred around his love affair with Dan Curley but he makes reference to other letters where the ‘tone’ was less than civil – we just don’t know what was in those. Or how he worded things.

EDIT2: Actually there is a precedent for Zodiac writing letters that don’t mention himself if you consider the citizen letter or the Marco letter genuine or even the SLA letter.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:12 am

Started out looking at San Quentin and it led me to this.

http://www.sanfranciscoactorsworkshop.c … lcome.html

The workshop had performed Waiting for Godot at SQ in 1957 which kicked off the drama workshops there (for that era at least).

This guy’s name came up – Herbert Blau – Don’t know yet if it’s any relation to Eva Blau. Deb checked out the ancestry records – no Robert listed as far as I can tell (Eva’s Dad). Would be weird if they were related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Blau

Anyway as I said this was found because I was looking at SQ in relation to Manalli. Turns out there is another link to Manalli in the SFAW – James Schevill. Schevill is also listed as being on the board of directors and Schevill was one of the professors that presided over manalli’s oral at "the spooky cocktail lounge".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schevill

The SFAW didn’t perform the Mikado.

Article from 2008 about Godot at SQ.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c … 14SN4R.DTL

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:05 am

lhttp://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html
This is a very nice website for these girls, Seagull.
These articles about Kim Allen say that the police believe that her killer fell over the embankment and landed with such force that he likely injured himself pretty badly, maybe breaking his leg. The embankment was off a one lane road where there was not much room to pull over, so whoever left Kim there must have been in a hurry, which could account for his fall. If this was his usual style of hiding his victims, i.e., trade-off of hiding the victim well at the cost of being discovered in the act, then he may have had similar accidents previously. I wish we could know how Manalli injured his spine.

Also, one article says that after Kim’s death was publicized, a number of girls came forward to say they’d been raped while trying to hitchhike. Would be good to know if law enforcement found similarities between the descriptions of their attackers and, if so, could any of these guys match a description of Manalli.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:07 pm

Interesting stuff continues,but I am getting used to it.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:36 pm

Yes.

I half expecting to find proof that Manalli was in Londoon in 1888. :D

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:45 pm

I don’t know about that, but maybe on the grassy knoll.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:09 pm

I don’t know about that, but maybe on the grassy knoll.

Funny you should say lol. Don’t tempt the Fredster – he usually has a reply.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:24 pm

ok, no more jokes from me. Jeeze….



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:25 pm

On a more serious note.

I wonder exactly what kind of painting. Splashing would imply large amounts of paint (larger than oils or watercolors). Possibly this little creative aside was inspired by the centrifugal stuff which would require large amounts of paint of a certain viscosity.

Speculation I know but splashing around with paint in 1966. Wonder if he kept his watch on. Wonder if he used cheap exterior paint. Wonder if he had a watch lol.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:46 pm

Some more.

Both Zodiac and Manalli seem to refer to letters of a certain length as a note.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:03 am

Some more.

Both Zodiac and Manalli seem to refer to letters of a certain length as a note.

One more item for the growing collection,thanks Trav



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:51 am

I was wondering about this.

The red what? uniform?

Was this written in red ink by any chance?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:32 am

I was wondering about this.

The red what? uniform?

Was this written in red ink by any chance?

It seems like it was. The felttip stuff seems to look fatter.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:40 pm

Some more similarities in use of language. Lots of people have similar ways of saying certain things but in this instance I wanted to show that they are quite similar in context. For example in Mikado the line is actually just "leave it to you" no ‘up’. Also the same use here of "as to" after the word curious.

Zodiac or not, given Manalli’s career and writing and so on, it certainly useful to have an example of someone who uses language very similar to Zodiac and lends credence to the possibility that Zodiac, whoever he was, may have been of a similar ilk and surrounded by similar influences in his life – a similar background.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:00 pm

If we had even more materials from Manalli,I am quite sure we would find alot more stuff. I really like dthe way that both Manalli & Zodiac used the word SATERICAL/SATIRICAL.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:40 pm

More than likely. Just wanted to get those ones posted as they jumped at me.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:44 pm

Some more similarities in use of language. Lots of people have similar ways of saying certain things but in this instance I wanted to show that they are quite similar in context. For example in Mikado the line is actually just "leave it to you" no ‘up’. Also the same use here of "as to" after the word curious.

Zodiac or not, given Manalli’s career and writing and so on, it certainly useful to have an example of someone who uses language very similar to Zodiac and lends credence to the possibility that Zodiac, whoever he was, may have been of a similar ilk and surrounded by similar influences in his life – a similar background.

Re-looking at this again, the word & phrasing similarities are awesome. I also found Manalli using the word ‘SHALL’ a couple more times. This guy looks better & better. And wow….both using the word COMPLY



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:22 pm

Found this interesting.

The "g’s" – I was working on the Count Marco card (which, after some things I’ve noticed, consider genuine) and I became aware of not only similarity in the shapes but also a pattern in them.

The pattern concerns the use of the double g’s in this example and I’ve seen this elsewhere throughout the letters – zodiac and manalli. When using doubles there is a slight variation on the type of g used, in the second double in the sequence. On the Marco card the second double is slightly shorter and starts to curve inward toward the first g. Manalli’s does the same. Manalli loops his second g in the series and, depending on how heavy he is with the pen, it can look like second g is curving in – like the Marco card.

And finally….the obvious bit – there’s two types of g used by the zodiac and Manalli. The one with the curled tail and the straight one with the smaller head.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:21 pm

Left hand tick from Zodiac and Manalli, This may prove important later on. Sorry for being cryptic but I can’t be bothered explaining lol…….ah to hell with it. It may concern use of alternating ticks – I say may because I can’t be bothered looking. :D



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:26 am

Found this interesting.

The "g’s" – I was working on the Count Marco card (which, after some things I’ve noticed, consider genuine) and I became aware of not only similarity in the shapes but also a pattern in them.

The pattern concerns the use of the double g’s in this example and I’ve seen this elsewhere throughout the letters – zodiac and manalli. When using doubles there is a slight variation on the type of g used, in the second double in the sequence. On the Marco card the second double is slightly shorter and starts to curve inward toward the first g. Manalli’s does the same. Manalli loops his second g in the series and, depending on how heavy he is with the pen, it can look like second g is curving in – like the Marco card.

And finally….the obvious bit – there’s two types of g used by the zodiac and Manalli. The one with the curled tail and the straight one with the smaller head.

The two styles of G from both is yet another item on the checklist



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:52 am

Does Manalli have any children? Is there any way you can obtain his DNA?
I’m having trouble finding hard evidence against this man, aside from a cartoon sketch
found by his ex-wife and her new husband, that points towards the Santa Rose crimes.
Any evidence he owned guns and knew how to use them, did he hunt, any evidence of
violent acts, what kind of vehicles did he drive, etc.? Why would he be hanging out in
Vallejo or Berryessa? It also appears he is an educated man who can spell.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:39 pm

Manalli did not have any children. He was buried, not cremated, in a Santa Rosa cemetery. As I have said in previous posts, there is a possibility that he could be exhumed and a sample of his DNA taken.

Manalli was in the Army so he would have had firearms training but I do not know if he owned a firearm. He was driving a van at the time of his death. I don’t know what other vehicles he might have owned. He was divorced in 1972, his wife could have had a car. Manalli does not speak of his vehicles in his letters that I recall.

Santa Rosa is an hours drive from both Vallejo and Napa. Serial killers tend to start out farther from their homes and as they gain confidence in their ability to to get away with their crimes they tend to move closer to home. I’m not proposing that Manalli is the Zodiac just that it would be possible for a person like Manalli who lived in Santa Rosa to have been Zodiac.

Yes, Manalli was an educated man but given what Traveller learned and presented about the novel Finnegans Wake, which could apply to any suspect, my opinion is that Zodiac’s mispellings are deliberate.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:00 pm

Does Manalli have any children? Is there any way you can obtain his DNA?
I’m having trouble finding hard evidence against this man, aside from a cartoon sketch
found by his ex-wife and her new husband, that points towards the Santa Rose crimes.
Any evidence he owned guns and knew how to use them, did he hunt, any evidence of
violent acts, what kind of vehicles did he drive, etc.? Why would he be hanging out in
Vallejo or Berryessa? It also appears he is an educated man who can spell.

Its very hard to get information about people from 35-40 years ago. Whether they shot guns,etc. Thats a problem with alot of suspects & POI’s. ONEWHOKNOWS, you are lucky to have personally known & lived with your suspect. You knew him as wellas anybody could. But that is rare, most of the suspects & POI’s dont have that information provided by somebody close to them. The only way to know about Manalli’s use of guns,etc, would be to talk to somebody that knew him personally.

I didn’t start off looking at Manalli as a favorite suspect. I thought he was interesting in the Santa Rosa murders,and also because of him being linked to the Zodiac case by Graysmith. It wasn’t until I was skimming thru his writings that I noticed what I thought was a similarity in writing to Zodiac. I asked Trav to take a look,and then everything else started falling into place.

*Manalli mentions James Joyce. Low & behold, James Joyce has a book FILLED with many of the same misspelled words as used by Zodiac,misspelled in the same exact ways.

*Manalli frequently uses the word ‘SHALL’. Zodiac was awfully fond of that word too.

*Many of thewriters mentioned by Manalli, were featured in a 1968 book. Included in that book, was the writing of Manalli’s friends, Daniel Curley. As it happens, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME was in that book as well. Zodiac referenced THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME.

*In 1969, Zodiac used the words ‘SLAVES IN PARADISE’. At that same time, Manlli was writing a book called ‘PARADISE,ITS A NICE PLACE’.

*Both Zodiac & Manalli use the word ‘SATIRICAL'(of course Z spells it wrong). Thats NOT a word used frequently whatsoever.

*Multiple times, Manalli writes of violence, and even writes the term ‘GOD HELP ME BEFORE I KILL MORE’. Almost exactly as Zodiac writes it in the letter to Belli.

*Zodiac wrote ‘RED WITH RAGE’ & Manalli wrote(underlining RED)’Thed RED reveals a homicidal tendency’

*Both Zodiac & Manalli refer to theor letters as ‘notes’

*Zodiac wrote ‘RATHER LEAVE IT UP TO YOU’ & Manalli wrote ‘ILL LEAVE IT UP TO YOU’

*Zodiac wrote ‘THEY HAVE NOT COMPLIED’ & Manalli wrote ‘DO MY BEST TO COMPLY’

*Zodiac wrote ‘MILDLY CURIOUS AS TO’ & Manalli wrote ‘IM CURIOUS AS TO’

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect’s side by side writings with Zodiac’s like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:12 pm

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect’s side by side writings with Zodiac’s like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

Are you serious? Look here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ases#29969

With Manalli you show some matches and several similar phrases, but there we have over two dozen matches, including exact matches of rare phrases like RATHER MESSY, AROUND IN THE SNOW, CONTRARY TO WHAT POLICE SAY, etc.

Please take a look…I mention it in direct response to your question.

I think you guys are doing some good work on this interesting suspect. I would ask if he had any knowledge of or training in codes. And the key question is if he was the Santa Rosa killer, he is a very good Z suspect, if he is not, well then he is still interesting but you don’t have proof of capacity to kill.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:26 pm

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect’s side by side writings with Zodiac’s like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

Are you serious? Look here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ases#29969

With Manalli you show some matches and several similar phrases, but there we have over two dozen matches, including exact matches of rare phrases like RATHER MESSY, AROUND IN THE SNOW, CONTRARY TO WHAT POLICE SAY, etc.

Please take a look…I mention it in direct response to your question.

I think you guys are doing some good work on this interesting suspect. I would ask if he had any knowledge of or training in codes. And the key question is if he was the Santa Rosa killer, he is a very good Z suspect, if he is not, well then he is still interesting but you don’t have proof of capacity to kill.

AK, those phrases, etc are similar to zodiac’s as well, However, I am also looking at the overall writing…phrases, choice of words, and similarity in writing structure and formation.

Not sure if Manalli ‘could kill’ but he certainly wrote that he could, including strangling people and using the phrase ‘GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE’.

This guy pointed out an author & book, that book contains MANY of the Zodiac’s misspelled words…CHRISTMASS, WOEMAN,etc

The guy was writing a book called ….PARADISE,ITS A NICE PLACE, around the time Zodiac used the phrase ‘slaves in Paradise’. The guy uses the word ‘SHALL’ in several letters.

He shares a very distinct similarity in writing as seen here-

AK, It’s not a competition, or question of why one suspect is better. I certainly don’t think so anyhow. I have little interest in whether anybody is or is not sold on any particular suspect. Trav and I are just laying out our findings, as you have done with your suspect. Whil I certainly would like to see Manalli ‘on a silver platter, with an address in Vallejo and a membership to the NRA, I can only present what I can find



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:13 pm

I understand. Since you asked if any other suspect has many matches to Z, I will invite you and others to look here:

http://www.unazod.com/style.html

And then here:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ases#29969

Other than that, rock on, keep looking, you and Trav and others have found some good stuff! I would like to get Manalli’s DNA for sure.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:25 pm

I struck out getting a more recent photo of Fred Manalli. I had a very helpful person at the college where he taught that went thru all of the 1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him. The only thing they found was a listing of his name under the ‘not pictured’ list.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:14 pm

In response to AK and OWK.

They are very good questions regarding Manalli’s provenance concerning codes, firearms and even the ability to kill or commit violence.

Morf and Seagull have done a great job answering the possible connotations of those things, and that he was in the army, in his own writings. The codes connection it could be suggested are there through the Joyce connection and JF Bryce. There are many, many things (as Morf showed) that can be alluded to in Manalli’s writing and just obvious stuff either. There’s also stuff that doesn’t need allusion but is it for real or just Manalli’s thought’s on paper and nothing more? We don’t know.

Then we have Teddy K. Officially identified and incarcerated whacko can’t get any more solid). Guns, knives, bombs, codes. disguises. The handwriting is very good (will be looking at that at some point). Again similar use of words and phrases. And much more.

So…on paper and in reality – Teddy K looks way better. Hands down but then he has to – he’s a convicted terrorist/killer and maybe more. There’s not only weight of evidence but also proof the ability to commit certain acts with certain tools.

But that was from his "work" stuff. what about his personal letters to his family or brother – I assume they weren’t they full of direct references to his nefarious activities.

With Manalli’s stuff we only have personal letters so with that in mind it would be interesting to see how any of Teddy K’s personal letters compare against Manalli’s for overall tone and content. Not only would that be a more unbiased comparison but it would be good to see if there are any similarities between a known murderer’s personal writings and a POI’s letters of the same nature.

I have found myself asking the questions AK and OWK have asked and I did wonder – how much of a killers (work habits) would filter through in everyday writing, if any. Would something like the ciphers be represented in a direct way or would it be more obscure? I would tend towards the latter if you were actively avoiding attention. I would imagine the last thing a killer would do, if the importance of ciphers was being splashed all over the media, would be to use something, or even reference it, so obviously incriminating in every day use. But would that be the case? Don’t know for sure.

I just can’t ignore the line – I have been too clever for them. From what I’ve seen and it’s just MHO, Zodiac was clever and he was cunning and capable of lateral thinking and planning. He wasn’t necessarily all that careful but he tried to be. Problem is clever and careful aren’t always easy to balance but I think Zodiac did a pretty good job of it. There’s a feeling in the tone of what Zodiac writes, that that seems very much like the zodiac is a character, an alter ego and in the wearing of a costume at Berryessa. Considering the most popular reference we have for that, comics, movies etc, the one thing that a character must keep hidden is his true IDENTITY. Zodiac writes that "in this cipher is my idenity [sic]" then writes "I will not give you my name" or in other words – his true IDENTITY. The 408 contained what the Zodiac promised – the Zodiac’s Identity – actually a mini manifesto or biog of the killer’s alter ego – the Zodiac.

The point I’m trying to make is that I would expect there to be little or no direct reference to the alter ego or his activities in the "name" or "true identity’s" everyday writing. There would be a separation, on multiple levels, from the alter ego and the person in everyday life and activities …… "the rest of the time I look completely different"

I think the Zodiac may have been like that or rather "name" was because the Zodiac is just a construct, a parallel existence that didn’t exist. I think that the killer may have done more than create a "name" in using Zodiac. I think (and remember he’s as good as said this himself) he created an IDENTITY. The character would do things and say things. Even speak and act in a certain way that the real identity doesn’t in normal life ensuring that the character is as ‘different’ as possible from the real person. Ensuring that no part of the character leaked into everyday life – it’s like the killer is a completely different person. I could see a would be murderer/serial killer thinking that would be clever – create a character, even with a back story to assist yourself in playing that character whilst doing your crimes so that anything regarding appearance, voice, walk etc etc doesn’t get brought back into the true identities life. It’s like the killer is phantom, only seem to exist for sure when he’s killing.

A hunter who may or may not have gotten his rocks off with a girl. An escaped convict trying to get to mexico after killing a guard from an escape we’re not sure happened. Wore a Disguise. Has a symbol. Has a walking impediment and speaks with no accent. By day a mild mannered ………………… (insert likely profession to suit your POI) :D

I would imagine this skill would be something a writer would be good at – character building.

Oh and course there’s the possibility that if the Zodiac was as much of a created character as I’ve suggested, his creator may not have been all that sure if his acting skills at first if that phone call to the police sounded like it was being read from a script because it was lol. :D



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:27 pm

I struck out getting a more recent photo of Fred Manalli. I had a very helpful person at the college where he taught that went thru all of the 1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him. The only thing they found was a listing of his name under the ‘not pictured’ list.

Mr elusive. Maybe he thought photographs steal your soul. Thanks for trying.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:31 pm

Whether or not he owned a gun I couldn’t say but he may have been having an affair with one lol.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:01 pm

Ok I will do more on this but as the writing in the Marco letter (note?) is stylised this is probably the bulk of the interesting ones.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:57 pm

Morf: "1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him."

There were NO pictures of Manelli in all those years as part of the faculty of SRJC?

I can understand being left out for a year or two, but the lack of photos for all those years is something suspicious. It is like Manelli deliberately did not want his photo seen.

One suggestion: You could check the 1975 yearbook, especially the English Department, and see if you can locate anyone who is listed as they probably knew Manelli – I am sure most of the staff in that book are retired now, and many may have passed.

I have the impression Manelli was a social recluse, which means only a few people really knew him, and they are gone as well. If that is the case,
any faculty member, who was at SRJC at the time Manelli taught, would likely say Manelli was shy, kept to himself, etc, and nobody really knew him. That is just a guess, but based on the letters and behavior, I can’t see him being popular, or socially active with fellow instructors.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:33 pm

Morf: "1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him."

There were NO pictures of Manelli in all those years as part of the faculty of SRJC?

I can understand being left out for a year or two, but the lack of photos for all those years is something suspicious. It is like Manelli deliberately did not want his photo seen.

One suggestion: You could check the 1975 yearbook, especially the English Department, and see if you can locate anyone who is listed as they probably knew Manelli – I am sure most of the staff in that book are retired now, and many may have passed.

I have the impression Manelli was a social recluse, which means only a few people really knew him, and they are gone as well. If that is the case,
any faculty member, who was at SRJC at the time Manelli taught, would likely say Manelli was shy, kept to himself, etc, and nobody really knew him. That is just a guess, but based on the letters and behavior, I can’t see him being popular, or socially active with fellow instructors.

Manalli was NOT a full time teacher, and that is likely why he is not in the photos. The librarian told me that most of the part-time teachers were not shown. Also, he told me that around 69,they stopped yearbook production, so Manalli wouldnt have been in the yearbook photos in the 70’s since they didnt have any.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:39 pm

I wonder if you would have any luck trying San Quentin for a photo. He taught there until the mid ’60’s I believe. I bet they photographed their employees. Something from the mid ’60’s would be better than the 1957 photo. Also have you tried San Francisco State where he got his masters degree?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:43 pm

I wonder if you would have any luck trying San Quentin for a photo. He taught there until the mid ’60’s I believe. I bet they photographed their employees. Something from the mid ’60’s would be better than the 1957 photo. Also have you tried San Francisco State where he got his masters degree?

I checked with SF State, and they went thru the 60-64 yearbooks, and found no photo of Manalli. They stopped publishing yearbooks in 64. I really don’t even know how to go about contacting the prison to look into finding a photo of him. But that made me think of something, between his prison teaching, his job at the college, and his military, he has to have prints on file someplace. If police want to look at him for ANY crimes, I think they could track down his prints.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:35 pm

Ok I will do more on this but as the writing in the Marco letter (note?) is stylised this is probably the bulk of the interesting ones.

The question mark at the end of Fred’s letter looks quite similar to the question mark at the end of the Badlands letter, i.e. it looks like a "2". Jus’ sayin’.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:42 pm

Manalli writes about a guy named Dostoievski in one of his letters. As it turns out, on an old ZK.com thread, a couple people were discussing that same guy mentioned by Manalli, in reference to Gaik. Here’s the link:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/view … 43bd739d03

Here’s a quote from one member(you can simply sub the name MANALLI for GAIK)

" Yes, it’s Dostoevsky, and this makes for what I think is a compelling argument about Gaikowski as the Zodiac, and why he was able to stop. One of Dostoevsky’s most important books is Crime & Punishment (hinted at in the article); the main protagonist, Raskolnikov, imagines himself to be a revolutionary Superman in the Nietzschean mold, to whom rules do not apply and so he murders a pawnbroker and her sister, rationalizing it to be for the greater good.
If Gaikowski was thinking along the same lines, seeing himself as Raskolnikov, the Z murders could be seen as an attempt to destabilize society (a common theme of his other writings), for what he saw as the greater good, and which would be justified politically. Z in his letters stays very far away from politics other than taunting the wholly ineffectual police, since that would give up the game. But once it didn’t take much effect, Gaikowski as not a deranged serial killer driven to kill, but goofy theorist trying to make a political statement through killings and more especially the letter writing, he was able to stop without any problem.
Anyway, it makes sense to me, and the more references to Dostoevsky I see in Gaik’s writing the more I’m sure that it could be the explanation for why Z is doing his thing, and the persistent mystery of why he was able to stop so abruptly
"

And here’s another old ZK.com thread, discussing TEDK in reference to Dostoievski.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ozs/761.html

Once again, a quote from the poster:
"It’s interesting to note that in the Kropotkin and Garnett translations of Dostoevsky the word "nasty" is used very frequently–even in the title of one of Dostoevsky’s short stories, "A Nasty Tale." There must be some very frequently-used Russian word that corresponds closely in the same sense that we use it. Kaczynski was a big Dostoevsky reader. He got it from his mother"

I dont know enough about TedK or Gaik to know if either of them ever mentioned Dostoievski,but I know that Manalli did!



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:51 pm

Hey waht do you know(this stuff is not surprising me anymore), Manalli mentions this guy:

Vladimir Nabokov .

Well guess what, there is an old ZK.com thread discussing him too:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/view … 4335ae1db8

Even Ray Grant took notice:
http://www.thezodiacmurderssolved.com/1970_Letters.html

Even a thread on Opord:
http://www.opordanalytical.com/phpBB3/v … 8&start=30

"The most famous example I can think of (which is also highly appropriate in this context) is The Vane Sisters* by Vladimir Nabokov (the author of Lolita). In the story the Narrator derides "paranoid" people who look for hidden messages in books and such; but if you take the final paragraph of the story it contains a hidden message about the Narrator not being everything they seem!
Nabokov was a big fan of ciphers, puzzles, word-play, and chess. Hmm, sounds familiar
…."

Wow, Manalli sure has a habit of mentiong lots of people that seem in some way to link up to Zodiac. I guess its more coincidence. :roll:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:12 pm

Vladimir Nabokov was a lepidopterist according to wikipedia.

Ada in Vladimir Nabokov’s Ada has dreams as a young girl of being a lepidopterist on the fictional planet ‘anti-terra’. (Nabokov himself was an accomplished lepidopterist.)[4]

Stein in Lord Jim

It lists other fictional characters in literature who were lepidopterist. I found this one quite interesting

The character Frederick Clegg in the novel The Collector (1962)

The novel is about a lonely young man, Frederick Clegg, who works as a clerk in a city hall, and collects butterflies in his spare time. The first part of the novel tells the story from his point of view.
Clegg is obsessed with Miranda Grey, a middle-class art student at the Slade School of Fine Art. He admires her from a distance, but is unable to make any contact with her because of his nonexistent social skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidopterist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collector

EDIT Dostoyevsky Also had seizures

http://neurophilosophy.wordpress.com/20 … -epilepsy/


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:48 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:32 pm

If Manelli was in the military, there will be fingerprints of him on file, but I don’t think even the FOIA will allow access to that. SCSD could request a copy, but, since they apparently don’t have interest in getting DNA from him, I doubt they would make an effort to get a copy of his prints.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:05 am

Trav wrote:

I think the Zodiac may have been like that or rather "name" was because the Zodiac is just a construct, a parallel existence that didn’t exist. I think that the killer may have done more than create a "name" in using Zodiac. I think (and remember he’s as good as said this himself) he created an IDENTITY. The character would do things and say things. Even speak and act in a certain way that the real identity doesn’t in normal life ensuring that the character is as ‘different’ as possible from the real person. Ensuring that no part of the character leaked into everyday life – it’s like the killer is a completely different person. I could see a would be murderer/serial killer thinking that would be clever – create a character, even with a back story to assist yourself in playing that character whilst doing your crimes so that anything regarding appearance, voice, walk etc etc doesn’t get brought back into the true identities life. It’s like the killer is phantom, only seem to exist for sure when he’s killing.

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:11 am

Trav wrote:

I think the Zodiac may have been like that or rather "name" was because the Zodiac is just a construct, a parallel existence that didn’t exist. I think that the killer may have done more than create a "name" in using Zodiac. I think (and remember he’s as good as said this himself) he created an IDENTITY. The character would do things and say things. Even speak and act in a certain way that the real identity doesn’t in normal life ensuring that the character is as ‘different’ as possible from the real person. Ensuring that no part of the character leaked into everyday life – it’s like the killer is a completely different person. I could see a would be murderer/serial killer thinking that would be clever – create a character, even with a back story to assist yourself in playing that character whilst doing your crimes so that anything regarding appearance, voice, walk etc etc doesn’t get brought back into the true identities life. It’s like the killer is phantom, only seem to exist for sure when he’s killing.

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!

If Fred did indeed use ‘FREDA’, then that could be a sign of ‘latent homosexuality’, the same thing many people mention about Zodiac.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:19 am

Yes that certainly qualifies as different lol.

Wonder if Freda ever lost a pair of gloves in a taxi.

Coincidentally I’ve been watching a series on TV here called "Killers behind bars" – it’s about criminologist who examines cold cases where the killers have been caught and convicted but he’s sure they were responsible for other murders and looks at similar cases.

The first one was about a guy who was a cross-dresser and killed prostitutes.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:40 am

Freda just made something else more interesting. What would be even more interesting would be if Fred had changed his surname slightly as well to go with Freda. Oh I don’t know….maybe something like Manalefi .Pure speculation I know but the existence of Freda (if true) made it interesting.

Why is that interesting……for this reason.

EDIT: forgot the other N – so here’s it as far as it goes. It was in the introduction of the a in freda that interested me because it with the start of Manalli gives the 3 eightballs as A.

EDIT: If I had to guess or shoe-horn even further I would go for this as it gives us 3 female names – FREDA MAE ATEFE – ATEFE being a middle eastern first name that is used by males and females.

There is of course no evidence for this, just guessing at a puzzle.

EDIT: would be even more interesting if this girl’s name had been Atefe.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:28 am

On a more realistic note.

IF this Freda thing was true I wonder what lengths he would have gone to, to keep it hidden. I don’t know how easy it would have been for a 6′ 2" cross dresser to get clothes to fit. Would he have acquired the ability and then the skill to alter or even make clothes to fit? Sewing.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:34 am

On a more realistic note.

IF this Freda thing was true I wonder what lengths he would have gone to, to keep it hidden. I don’t know how easy it would have been for a 6′ 2" cross dresser to get clothes to fit. Would he have acquired the ability and then the skill to alter or even make clothes to fit? Sewing.

Def would have shopped at the ‘big & tall’ woman’s store.

We were discussing in another thread here someplace, why iit was that some police & profilers thought Zodiac was a latent homosexual,and i seem to recall that it was based on his choice of using a knife



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:35 am

If Fred did indeed use ‘FREDA’, then that could be a sign of ‘latent homosexuality’, the same thing many people mention about Zodiac.

I assumed that comment had originally came from Paul Avery in his article. I also assumed it was said because of the love heart and the "thinking of you" stickers that were included in the halloween card.

Have other’s looked into possible hints of this in Zodiac’s writings?

On a more realistic note.

IF this Freda thing was true I wonder what lengths he would have gone to, to keep it hidden. I don’t know how easy it would have been for a 6′ 2" cross dresser to get clothes to fit. Would he have acquired the ability and then the skill to alter or even make clothes to fit? Sewing.

Def would have shopped at the ‘big & tall’ woman’s store.

We were discussing in another thread here someplace, why iit was that some police & profilers thought Zodiac was a latent homosexual,and i seem to recall that it was based on his choice of using a knife

Ah, ok.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:39 am

If Fred did indeed use ‘FREDA’, then that could be a sign of ‘latent homosexuality’, the same thing many people mention about Zodiac.

I assumed that comment had originally came from Paul Avery in his article. I also assumed it was said because of the love heart and the "thinking of you" stickers that were included in the halloween card.

Have other’s looked into possible hints of this in Zodiac’s writings?

No,I think it was more than that. I think that police made up some sort of profile. I forget what thread it was in,but it was not too long ago



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:47 am

Ah, cool.

What about the make-up kit comment that was made by LE, I think. Was that part of it too or was that just a one-off unsubstantiated comment by some detective?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:15 am

I would have to say, that on paper, Manalli is one of the best suspects I have seen. ‘On paper’ is the key. I would love to see proof of him shooting guns,a link of some sort to Vallejo, and a photo of him from 1969. I am afraid that there isnt alot more we can find. Maybe we can get lucky and get in touch with somebody that knew him,and they may be willing to talk. Also interesting, is the possibility of police exhuming his body.

Seagull, have you ever seen the actual drawings of his?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:23 am

Found this:

"I turned in an entry for the SRJC literary awards. I don’t know if I can win anything since I won the Manalli last year "

Apparently, this guy has an award named after him.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:16 pm

What’s your basis for assuming that FM was a cross-dresser because he wrote his name "Freda"?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:37 pm

What’s your basis for assuming that FM was a cross-dresser because he wrote his name "Freda"?

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:50 pm

yeah, I read that, but I don’t know what Graysmith’s source is. I’ve read Zodiac 2 but I don’t own it, so if it is in there I don’t remember what it says.

I made that thread that Morf mentioned about how I think it’s weird that people think Zodiac was gay and then want to say that their POi’s are too, when the circumstances to me indicate that Zodiac was probably straight and that most if not all of these guys probably were too.

All of the serial killers that I’ve heard about target victims of their sexual preference. Did the cross-dressing killer you saw the show about kill men or women?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:51 pm

What’s your basis for assuming that FM was a cross-dresser because he wrote his name "Freda"?

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!

Supposedly, in his drawing of the victim, Allen, he referred to himself as FREDA. I cant remember if the drawing was said to have showed him in female clothing.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:00 pm

Did the cross-dressing killer you saw the show about kill men or women?

Women

It was The Suffolk Strangler Case BTW.

The prime suspect in the hunt for the Suffolk Strangler was a workmate of lost estate agent Suzy Lamplugh, it was reported today.
Steve Wright, 48, and Suzy were shipmates on the QE2 liner in the 1980s before she went missing in 1986.
Yesterday it also emerged that Wright was notorious among prostitutes as a cross-dresser.
He would wear high heels, a PVC skirt and a wig as he went looking for sex.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Supposedly, in his drawing of the victim, Allen, he referred to himself as FREDA. I cant remember if the drawing was said to have showed him in female clothing.

I think the strong association between homosexuality and cross-dressing is a myth. Most men who have a cross-dressing fetish are heterosexual, not homosexual.

Sources:

study done by Virginia Prince and Dr, Richard Doctor in
1997 as a follow up to one done earlier

The abstract :

"One thousand and thirty-two male periodic cross-dressers (transvestites)
responded to an anonymous survey patterned after Prince and Bentler’s (1972)
report. With few exceptions, the findings are closely related to the 1972
survey results. Eighty-seven percent described themselves as heterosexual. All
except 17% had married and 60% were married at the time of this survey. Topics
surveyed included demographic, childhood, and family variables, sexual
orientation and sexual behavior, cross-gender identity, cross-gender role
behavior, future plans to live entirely as a woman, and utilization of
counseling or mental health services. Of the present sample, 45% reported seeking
counseling compared to 24% of the 1972 survey, and those reporting strong
transsexual inclinations were up by 5%."

Here’s a summary of the cited Prince and Bentler study: http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pr0.1972.31.3.903

More sources are mentioned in this article: http://crossdresserswife.com/index.php/2009/02/20/11-crossdressing-facts/



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:29 pm

Again,I dont know one way or another if Manalli was a cross dresser. The only thing I remember hearing is that he referred to himself as ‘freda’. Seagull would likely know more about what was in the drawing.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:31 pm

Hypothetically if he was it might explain the confusion over the content of the desk poem and whether it had been written by a male or a female. It my have been both lol.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:48 pm

Hypothetically if he was it might explain the confusion over the content of the desk poem and whether it had been written by a male or a female. It my have been both lol.

Bingo.

People have speculated that the author of the desktop poem may have been a suicidal female. But what if it was a sexually confused dude, perhaps writing about ‘killing off’ (suppressing) a female side to him that he was struggling with?

FYI: cross dressing =/= homosexual.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:53 pm

And again on the height thing – I’m not sure why that’s so much of an issue, given the six-foot-two estimates that Bryan and (debatable) Fouke offered. Six-foot-three is still in the ballpark, I think.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:58 pm

And again on the height thing – I’m not sure why that’s so much of an issue, given the six-foot-two estimates that Bryan and (debatable) Fouke offered. Six-foot-three is still in the ballpark, I think.

In looking at Manalli(and other suspects)I am trying not to think about their height,weight,whether they have glasses,etc. If they turn out to be a dead ringer for the wanted poster and everything else fits, so be it. With Manalli, I dont know what he looked like around 69, but I am quite satisfied about all of the stuff that links up well with Zodiac.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:16 pm

Ok I found this quite curious.

For the record I have NOT found a match – All I am presenting here is a hypothesis. It concerns the word "with" on the bottom of the bus bomb letter page with the ingredients list. The TH is very unique and I don’t think I’ve seen Zodiac use it anywhere else. I’ve noted it in the past but it’s came back into play given it’s construction.

On it’s own I would say it’s a mistake. Compared to Manalli there’s a possible reason for it – now that doesn’t restrict it to Manalli, it just happens that Manalli’s writing has the prerequisites for the explanation.

The mistake is that I think Zodiac slipped into cursive here and attempted to correct himself. Which it why we have what we have. You can see where I’ve marked the flow of the t and the h. I think he accidentally used the cross bar on the t and followed it through to the h as he would in cursive and realising that then attempted to add a ‘topper’ crossbar as well onto the t to disguise it. There was no need for that topper and he doesn’t use it anywhere else.

Manalli uses a good variation on his t’s and shown here IMO are the elements in them that are similar to the th on the word ‘with’. The follow through on to an h and that weird topper he uses a lot.

Also I think that’s a 2 stroke k used prior to it.

Manalli or not that little ‘mistake’ may prove important at some point. One last thing – if you’re wondering about the curl on the end of the h – don’t. It’s inconsistent with Zodiacs own h’s but is consistent with construction on some of his other letters. Manalli is the same.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:24 pm

The question mark at the end of Fred’s letter looks quite similar to the question mark at the end of the Badlands letter, i.e. it looks like a "2". Jus’ sayin’.

Ironically that’s one thing that matches the least lol. It may be an anomaly. I have a suspicion that the question mark on the end of the citizen may be a corrected exclamation mark. I’m not 100% sure because I haven’t looked into it but it occurred to me as a possibility while I was looking at it.

I have placed some of Manalli’s questions beside it that are similar but I’ve also included a rather odd exclamation mark that is similar in construction albeit an overall different shape.

While I’m down there at the bottom of the citizen letter here’s a proper Manalli Z compared to the Z in Citizen as opposed to his curley z that looks like a 3. Note the same little tick at the start. That is the strongest similarity. I wouldn’t be sold totally on shape but I’m not unconvinced either – can’t expect a perfect match everytime I guess and this is the only example of that type of Z that we have from Manalli, or Freda or whatever you want to call him lol



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:22 pm

MISC-




traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:49 pm

An occasional poem or two? YEAH UNDER A DESK YOU WEIRDO lol – ok I’m back to being objective lol.

Thanks for posting those Morf and for the Jarvis papers. I’ll get a glance at those now.

I notice they must have deemed it safe enough by the 80’s to create the award after that nasty business with sketches and backpacks had blown over.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:55 pm

Well there’s something anyway that ties in with the Actors workshop stuff. He studied under Herbert Blau. Don’t know if that means anything yet or ever will but thought I’d mention it.

EDIT: One thing that seems to be constant is that this guy is always skint. Lkie really skint. Couldn’t see him being able to afford to buy weapons via mail order and wot not.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:30 am

I am going to post this in this thread, as it relates to Manalli’s interests, as well as the Bates section:

The following is an excerpt from a book called CORROBORATING EVIDENCE written by William T. Rasmussen…

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner
"

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:31 am

The article in this thread that’s about Manalli overseeing a student project – any way we could find some of the students whose names are listed there? Just to see what they remember about him, personality, character, whatever might be of interest.

Here’s something I googled on Dan Curley.

Daniel Curley Papers, 1932-91 | Archon Sandbox
sandbox.archon.org/latest/?p=collections/controlcard&id=13655
Title: Daniel Curley Papers, 1932-91 Add to your cart. ID: 15/7/37 … include Stanley Elkin, Roger Ebert, Hilton Kramer, Fred Manalli, John Moffitt, and C. P. Snow.

Looks like Fred was in good company! Roger Ebert, a student of Curley, the famous movie critic, and C. P. Snow, a well-known author. Four of these guys are in Wikipedia. Moffit, a televison writer and producer, is not, but seems to be quite successful. And then there’s Manalli… he won an award for his writing, but that’s about it. Just doesn’t seem to fit in with the rest, imo. Yes, he died relatively young, but it doesn’t seem like he was on track to becoming a great writer. Or great anything else. His letters to Curley don’t seem particularly interesting (outside of the fact that they match Z so well!). I’m just wondering why Curley would want to keep up a correspondence with Manalli for so long.

Interesting fact. Like Manalli, Dan Curley died because of injuries sustained in a car crash. His car was struck by another vehicle as he was going through an intersection, and he died of complications of a broken neck he suffered in the crash. This was in 1988, in Florida, where he was vacationing. The obit I saw doesn’t say who was driving the car Curley was in, but says that "the driver had the green light". Not sure if "driver" refers to the driver of the car Curley was in or the driver whose vehicle struck him.

If anyone’s interested in reading a couple of Dan Curley’s short stories, here’s a link to his book of short stories, Living With Snakes. A NYTimes book reviewer said that Curley was very good at "making good stories out of bad marriages", or something like that.

http://www.openisbn.com/preview/082030767X/



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:57 am

I think that Manalli was a ‘Hanger-on’, trying to stay in contact with these other established people that he admired. All thru his letters, he begged, pleaded, and basically wined about not being published. He had a hunger for the spotlight, and whether he was Z or not, he certainly had that in common with Z.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:05 am

In one of his letters, Manalli mentions that he studied at SF college under a guy named Walter Van Tilburg.

A little about Walter Van Tilburg-

"He had several academic positions, serving for a time during the 1950s as a professor of creative writing at the University of Montana in Missoula"

"He was Assistant Professor of English at the University of Montana during 1954 and 1955. From 1956 until 1961, Clark taught at San Francisco State College in the Creative Writing Department."

That college was an hour from Deer Lodge prison. No smoking gun,and this guy had already moved onto SF by the time the riots started,just thought it was worth mentioning

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:12 am

Morf wrote:

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner"

Not sure if this relates, but I’ve thought that the initials rh could refer to Robert Herrick, the Renaissance poet. First, because Herrick wrote a poem called Cherry Ripe, in which he compares the lips of Julia to cherries, and at least two more poems about how Julia’s nipples, seen through the fabric of her dress, are like cherries, and, in general is pretty obsessed with the visual aesthetics of Julia and other girls. Most of these you wouldn’t find in an anthology, but definitely would find Cherry Ripe. And CHERRY is a lot like CHERI. And second, because it turns out that Herrick was actually not considered a great poet during his lifetime, nor for several centuries thereafter. It wasn’t until the 1960’s that people took a fresh look at him, and realized the excellence of his writing!!! Here’s some of his stuff, if you want to check it out. Upon Julia’s Clothes is one of his most famous poems, that’s the one that made me initially think of him as an inspiration for the desktop writer. And one third thing, because of the e.e. cummings style of the desktop poem – kinda makes you consider that the writer may have been thinking of poets in general when he wrote on the desk.

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/herrick/herribib.htm



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:33 am

Herrick def seemed obsessed with Cherry…and the CHERRY VS CHERI thing is interesting



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:42 am

Manalli never fails to deliver the goods.

Here is another interesting factoid from Manalli,one that somebody calling themself, ‘THE ZODIAC’ may have been interested in-

"Apogee and perigee refer to the distance from the Earth to the moon. Apogee is the farthest point from the earth. Perigee is the closest point to the earth and it is in this stage that the moon appears larger"
seen here- http://www.moonconnection.com/apogee_perigee.phtml



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:31 am

I am going to post this in this thread, as it relates to Manalli’s interests, as well as the Bates section:

The following is an excerpt from a book called CORROBORATING EVIDENCE written by William T. Rasmussen…

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner
"

Well the poem on the desk certainly qualifies lol but there are poetic undertones in the confession letter. In fact as I was thinking about this there is almost a "little list" feel to it.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:36 am

MAN’S DYING-PLACE UNCERTAIN.
by Robert Herrick

MAN knows where first he ships himself, but he
Never can tell where shall his landing be.

"draining into an uncertain death"?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:39 am

MAN’S DYING-PLACE UNCERTAIN.
by Robert Herrick

MAN knows where first he ships himself, but he
Never can tell where shall his landing be.

"draining into an uncertain death"?

Pretty good.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:42 am

Manalli never fails to deliver the goods.

Here is another interesting factoid from Manalli,one that somebody calling themself, ‘THE ZODIAC’ may have been interested in-

"Apogee and perigee refer to the distance from the Earth to the moon. Apogee is the farthest point from the earth. Perigee is the closest point to the earth and it is in this stage that the moon appears larger"
seen here- http://www.moonconnection.com/apogee_perigee.phtml

Good catch. I was meaning to check out what that meant.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:00 pm

Here’s a start to a timeline for addresses and locations. Thanks to BigZ for the Holyoke St address. Please add to or amend where necessary.

1963
961 Union St, San Francisco. Calif.

1964
462 Holyoke St., SF (living with Walter Buczeke)

1966
still at 462 Holyoke (wife Sue is also listed at the address, as well as Buczeke)

1969/1970
428 Eighth St, Santa Rosa. Calif. 95401

1973
109 Frederick St, San Francisco, Calif. 94117

1975
2353 S.Alpine Road, Rockford Il 61108

And 2 without dates

c/o Stuart – 1750 Bay Meadows, Florrisant, Missouri (I’m assuming it’s around ’75 as it seems to be a Christmas visit for a few days and after that he’s back to Alpine Rd in Rockford)

Don’t know where this one falls in the timeline but again assuming it’s between 73 & 76 unless it’s pre 63.

725 N.Dardiner Ave, Rockford Il.

He also mentions being being in San Leandro at the library there. Need to check for date.

EDIT: He was in Germany at some point. Don’t know if that would have been with the army?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:05 pm

He also lived in Sebastapol.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:06 pm

From a letter dated Sept. 1, 1961 the San Leandro address-

532 Bancroft Ave.
San Leandro CA

Letter dated Sept. 19, 1961-

Begins attending San Francisco State College to earn credits for his masters degree.

Begins teaching part time at San Quentin Prison. Assigned to teach 5th-7th grade lauguage arts to prisoners.

From an April 6, 1963 letter address of-

961 Union St.
San Francisco

The address given when Manalli filed his DD214 military discharge with the Sonoma County Recorders Office* was-

1570 North St. #11
Santa Rosa CA

* The probable reason he would have filed his DD214 with the recorders office is that it was required to do so if he used the GI Bill to purchase a home.

Address at his death-

6665 Sebastopol Ave.
Sebastopol CA



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:10 pm

Manalli also worked for the US Forest Service as a firespotter for a few summer seasons along with his wife, Sue. They were stationed in Mendocino County on Anthony Peak, near the Round Valley Indian Reservation.

They were also stationed at Lake Tahoe for at least one season late ’60’s.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:41 pm

Another address from a letter dated Oct. 11, 1970

PO Box 178
Guernewood Park CA

Guernewood Park is located in Sonoma County in the Russian River area about a mile west of Guerneville.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:07 pm

Another address from a letter dated Oct. 11, 1970

PO Box 178
Guernewood Park CA

Guernewood Park is located in Sonoma County in the Russian River area about a mile west of Guerneville.

I see Guernewood Park has even more Zynchronicity with street names. There’s a lovers lane, a Cherry Street and a Riverside Drive



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:26 pm

Unfortunately, Curley, Emblem or Manalli’s ex-wife are gone and they are the ones who would know Fred the best.

The film critic, Roger – is he still around? I can’t remember – if he is, you might get some information about Curley.

Manelli bitched about his poems not being published, he wanted to teach at a better facility then SRJC (need a Ph.D.), wanted his Master’s Degree from where he attended for his Bachelor’s.

All in all, sounds like a very moody person.

Since he did not teach full time at the junior college, what did he do to make ends meet? I know cost-of-living was cheaper in those days, but he still had expensis. If he did nothing but write, it would give him time to plan and plot any crimes, if he committed any.

Rape and murder of women are crimes directed towards women. Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:41 pm

Found an interview with Hayakawa & his Wife. Looks like he had a connection of sorts to the Chronicle.

Friends and Colleagues at San Francisco State

Shearer
Who was your contact? You said it was the chairman of the English department who–?

Hayakawa
Her name was Caroline Shrodes.

Shearer
She was chair of the–

Hayakawa
The English department.

― 194 ―
Shearer
How had she known of your work?

Hayakawa
Well, in the first place, I had been invited out here for three summer sessions before I came here–’52, ’53, and ’54. Or maybe in ’53, ’54, and ’55. I actually don’t remember.

Mrs. Hayakawa
I think we moved to this house in ’55. So that was after we lived in–was it Caroline Shrodes’s? No, it wasn’t Caroline Shrodes’s house that we lived in.

Hayakawa
Lou Wasserman’s house.

Mrs. Hayakawa
Wasserman’s house, yes. Lou and Caroline Wasserman. Awfully nice people.

Shearer
They’re not related to the John Wasserman of the Chronicle?

Mrs. Hayakawa
I think that’s their son. We didn’t meet the family, because they had moved out of the house. We met them later, and Don was a colleague of Lou Wasserman’s later when he joined the staff of San Francisco State. But we were there for summer school, living in their Mill Valley house, which was nice because nobody knew about Mill Valley. We would be glad of it later. [laughter]

Shearer
What kind of a department did you find when you arrived at San Francisco State.

Hayakawa
Very cordial, very hospitable.

Shearer
I noticed that sometimes you’re described as being a professor of language arts and sometimes as professor of English. Why?

Hayakawa
Language arts is a kind of School of Education term and looked down upon by the English department people. But San Francisco State was not organized originally to turn out literary scholars but to turn out English teachers for public schools. So that’s why it was called the language arts department.

Shearer
Were you the only semanticist?

Hayakawa
Yes, I think. However, many of my colleagues became interested in semantics and helped me edit my journal ETC. and used some of the principles of semantics in their teaching. Caroline Shrodes was chairman of the department and gave me every encouragement.

Shearer
Who in particular was cordial or of like mind or of a stimulating mind in the department or in the school at large?

― 195 ―
Hayakawa
Oh, Caroline Shrodes to start out with. Who are special friends at San Francisco State? Richard Dettering.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:37 pm

Turns out that "th" thing wasn’t the only cursive slip in the bus bomb letter. There’s a + on the left hand side where he slips and joins the descender to the crossbar. Naturally Freddy does the same thing.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:58 am

Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Oh yeah, I’d look for something that "set the guy off" with any suspect. I don’t remember if this was brought up before, the threads gettin long… do you know when that was?



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:18 am

Rape and murder of women are crimes directed towards women. Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Great stuff, we now have possible motive, too.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:48 am

Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Oh yeah, I’d look for something that "set the guy off" with any suspect. I don’t remember if this was brought up before, the threads gettin long… do you know when that was?

His wife apparently filed for divorce from him in 1970 in Sonoma County & then again for good in 1973 in SF. (they must have reconciled in between). Now, since we dont know about Manalli & his wife’s personal lives,we can only speculate. But something must have strained their marriage, and it eventually got to her….Did it start in 68-69?? That,or perhaps, and more innocently,she just fell for Don Emblen?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:53 am

I have reached out to a few people that I hoped knew Manalli, or that I know for sure knew Manalli. So far,no luck. A couple did not respond. One guy took the creative courses in Santa Rosa,but just left before Manalli got there. One guy named Herb Blau(mentioned by Manalli in his letter)could not recall Manalli. He said he had way too many students over the years,plus he is in his 80’s, so that may have something to do with it.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:51 pm

Ducking, maybe Seagull will post and answer your question. I don’t know.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:26 am

His wife apparently filed for divorce from him in 1970 in Sonoma County & then again for good in 1973 in SF.

Thanks.

Hm. Well yeah, that sort of precludes it being a precipitating factor for the Z crimes.

But maybe say that they were having problems and/or were separated in 1969, a good time to start writing letters. Maybe they got back together in 1971 for another chance, stop the letters. Having problems again in 72, go out and do the SRHM instead of writing from home as Z. Got divorced in 73, in 74 the letters again but with a new persona and dropped the Z.

It’s just an imaginary possibility. I don’t really think that SRHM and Z are related.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:43 am

As a fire spotter, Manalli would probably have used the Osborne Fire Finder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Fire_Finder
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Use of the Fire Finder

The system is composed of a topographic map of the area oriented and centered on a horizontal table with a circular rim graduated in degrees (and fractions). Two sighting apertures are mounted above the map on opposite sides of the ring and slide around the arc.
A USFS Fire Lookout using an Osborne Fire Finder while on duty at Vetter Mountain, California.

The device is used by moving the sights until the observer can peek through the nearer sighting hole and view the cross hairs in the further sight aligned with the fire. The fire lookout notes the degrees on the graduated ring beneath the sight. The original Fire Finder was capable of a crude estimate of elevation based upon the level and elevation of the table, calculating distance and rough position of the fire by reference to any distinctive terrain features and by use of the scale shown on the map. However, in actual practice, fire distance and location were normally established using two or more Fire Finder-equipped towers, using the intersection method to fix the precise location of the fire.[1][2] Dispatchers at a central facility used a compass rose to mark lines of position from each reporting tower onto a large map to quickly find where the reported bearings intersect.

Today, a more precise determination of a fire location can be made by the use of a single Fire Finder in conjunction with a digital elevation model (DEM).[3]
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Once you located the fire, you could transmit the info to firefighters by telephone or by using a heliograph. Basically, the heliograph is a mirror you use to flash Morse code. Presumably this would be in a remote location where there’s no phone lines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliograph
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Description
Fig. 2: German Heliograph made by R. Fuess in Berlin (on display at the Museum of Communication in Frankfurt).

There were many heliograph types. Most heliographs were variants of the British army Mance Mark V version (Fig.1). It used a mirror with a small unsilvered spot in the centre. The sender aligned the heliograph to the target by looking at the reflected target in the mirror and moving his head until the target was hidden by the unsilvered spot. Keeping his head still, he then adjusted the aiming rod so its cross wires bisected the target.[2] He then turned up the sighting vane, which covered the cross wires with a diagram of a cross, and aligned the mirror with the tangent and elevation screws so the small shadow that was the reflection of the unsilvered spot hole was on the cross target.[2] This indicated that the sunbeam was pointing at the target.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Both of these devices are kind of interesting. Measuring things in degrees, use of a mirror to reflect a beam of light. And possibly inspiration for Z logo.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:11 pm

Duckking:

I agree with you – I do not think the SRHM and Zodiac cases are related. The killer would certainly
have changed his MO if it were Zodiac, there was no sexual attacks in his crimes, and the killer
was completely different from the SRHM. Manelli may or may not be involved in SRHM, but I doubt
if he was Zodiac.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:45 pm

Duckking:

I agree with you – I do not think the SRHM and Zodiac cases are related. The killer would certainly
have changed his MO if it were Zodiac, there was no sexual attacks in his crimes, and the killer
was completely different from the SRHM. Manelli may or may not be involved in SRHM, but I doubt
if he was Zodiac.

While you may be right,or should I say, probably right,why not rule out Manalli properly for both SRHM & ZODIAC? If his body can be exhumed,perhaps a DNA sample can rule him in or out. Additionally, this man’s prints are likely to be on file someplace, after all he was in the Army, and was a teacher,so I hope prints were taken at some point. Still in all, I can’t ignore his similarities to Zodiac’s writing….the closest I have seen. His common uses of words and writing habits with Zodiac are spooky, not to mention the fact he was writing a story called ‘Paradise,its a nice place’ at the same time Zodiac mentioned ‘slaves in Paradise’.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:26 pm

"If his body can be exhumed,perhaps a DNA sample can rule him in or out. Additionally, this man’s prints are likely to be on file someplace….."

I agree with you, Morf, and you and Traveller are doing a fine job uncovering facts about Manelli.

Since I understand sperm was found from one of the victims, I think the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Office owes it to the families of the victims
to exhume Manalli’s remains and test DNA. I can tell you, from working at NCIS, if Manalli was in one of the armed forces, there are fingerprints on file. They can be obtained, by request, from the SCSD. I don’t think FOIA applies to fingerprints taken while in the military. Civilian, perhaps.
I don’t know about how the FOIA applies there. Since A.J. is an attorney, maybe he does.

The U.S. Privacy act, along with the FOIA will get you three pieces of information about military personnel:

Name
Rank
Serial Number

Anything else is like pulling hen’s teeth. Manalli’s file would be stored in a Federal Records Center. Best bet is to contact the branch of armed forces he served in. If you have the above information, it will be helpful.

I hope that helps.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:36 am

Yeah, I was hoping that we could get something a little more definitive out of his timeline. Not being in California at the time, I’d say would pretty much rule someone out. Just the info that he was in Nor Cal at the time doesn’t help much though, because that is a minimum requirement just to be considered.

I don’t remember, did he have a Riverside connection?

Based on those dates it seemed that he was in Sonoma during the Z attacks, and in SF during the SRHM. Kind of a reverse situation to what you might expect.

Let’s hypothesize that he did write at least some of the Z letters. What does that mean? Would it mean that he has to be the Z, or does that lend more towards the team or non-zodiac killer (as in the writer wasn’t involved with the murders) theories? Or could it mean that maybe he just wrote the 74 letters and that they are actually not Z related and it’s just a coincidence that he has similar handwriting and someone thought it was Z?

I guess that last question is the one that I am considering the most. Not trying to put anyone on the spot to answer these questions, but maybe something to think about for the case in general regardless of POI.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:48 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:37 am

Yeah, I was hoping that we could get something a little more definitive out of his timeline. Not being in California at the time, I’d say would pretty much rule someone out. Just the info that he was in Nor Cal at the time doesn’t help much though, because that is a minimum requirement just to be considered.

I don’t remember, did he have a Riverside connection?

Based on those dates it seemed that he was in Sonoma during the Z attacks, and in SF during the SRHM. Kind of a reverse situation to what you might expect.

Let’s hypothesize that he did write at least some of the Z letters. What does that mean? Would it mean that he has to be the Z, or does that lend more towards the team or non-zodiac killer (as in the writer wasn’t involved with the murders) theories? Or could it mean that maybe he just wrote the 74 letters and that they are actually not Z related and it’s just a coincidence that he has similar handwriting and someone thought it was Z?

I guess that last question is the one that I am considering the most. Not trying to put anyone on the spot to answer these questions, but maybe something to think about for the case in general regardless of POI.

Manalli, was steadily in Northern CA from the early to mid 60’s until sometime in 1974(when the Z letters stopped). In 1974, he moved back to Illinois. I know this based on a letter he wrote in 1975 stating "I MOVED BACK HERE LAST YEAR AFTER MANY YEARS IN CA". At some point, he moved back to CA in time for his fatal auto accident in Aug 1976. From this standpoint, he fits the Zodiac timeline and can not be ruled out, at least based on his trail of addresses, dates,and other clues from his letters, and address histories. However, I can find no links to him in Riverside or Southern CA. I think Seagull checked too and failed to come up with any. In the Graysmith book, ZODIAC UNMASKED, a woman gave Graysmith and/or investigators alot of info about Manalli, and she stated that she believed he had ties in southern CA, and to "Riverside…the Bates case"(I am paraphrasing).

As far as getting his military records, I have requested them. They can take several weeks. Seagull knows a little about his service, andI am trying to find more. Several military records I have obtained over the years are sketchy and have very little helpful info. Sometimes, they can not locate the records for some soldiers(thanks in part to a fire at teh records center warehouse). But in at least one instance, I was sent a good amount of information about somebody, dates, service duty stations, special training (a marksman with a handgun)etc, etc. Not sure what, if anything Manalli’s record will provide.

Once again, if you look at this guy on paper, he is a pretty good suspect:

*Many Writing similarities to Zodiac in formation, structure, habits,etc

*Mentions of James Joyce’s book, which includes many of the same misspelled words from Zodiac, with the exact misspellings

*When Zodiac mentioned "reborn in paradise", Manalli, was at that very time, finishing a story called ‘Paradise, its a nice place’

*Like Z, Manalli frequently used the word ‘SHALL’ more than anybody would normally use it.

*Manalli mentioned violent acts, rape,murders, and even wrote "GOD SAVE ME…CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"..very similar in wording to the Belli note

*We know Zodiac had some sort of mental stuff going on, thats obvious. Manalli wrote alot about his own deteriorating mental health, and sanity. Manalli also had a medical condition which likely effected his walk…perhaps it would have made him walk irregularly like Z appeared to.

*Physically, he looks similar to the Zodiac sketch(minus glasses). His 6ft3 height is taller than most Z descriptions, although Z was described as 6ft2 in one account. He apparently put on weight too. In one letter, he mentioned he had gotten flabby and wouldnt be recognized.

*Ken Narlow mentioned that NAPA PD was of the opinion that Zodiac,whomever he was,was very poor based on the fact that he drove a car with 4 non-matching tires in poor shape. Manalli wrote that he was very poor, making $4-$5000 a year and barely scraping by. In one letter, he even mentioned "needing a new set of tires"

*Most compelling of all, he was a suspect in the SRH murders. Anybody that is a bay area serial murder suspect, should be properly ruled in the SRHM & Zodiac murders for all reasons listed above.

What do I make of all this stuff? I dont know. I do know, its all strong enough to make me keep digging. I know that when the last confirmed Z letter was received in 74, that Manalli headed to Illinois, and he died in 1976….no confirmed Z letter came after 1974. I know that alot of Manalli’s interests and writings line up with Zodiac clues. This may be another great case of Zyncronicity, but maybe not.

Seagull pointed out that some serial killers start out further away from their house, and get closer to home as they get more comfortable, which could explain no verified addresses,etc for Manalli in Vallejo. Still, I would like to verify some sort of reason for manalli to be connected to Vallejo. I would also love to know if he had any history with guns. I have reached out to a few people that may have known Manalli, or could help me get some facts, but I struck out.

My personal goal is to research all suspects and POI’s until they can be ruled out in my book. I cant do that with Manalli,therefore, I will keep digging



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:23 am

Let’s hypothesize that he did write at least some of the Z letters. What does that mean? Would it mean that he has to be the Z, or does that lend more towards the team or non-zodiac killer (as in the writer wasn’t involved with the murders) theories? Or could it mean that maybe he just wrote the 74 letters and that they are actually not Z related and it’s just a coincidence that he has similar handwriting and someone thought it was Z?

I guess that last question is the one that I am considering the most. Not trying to put anyone on the spot to answer these questions, but maybe something to think about for the case in general regardless of POI.

I’ve been considering this throughout and at times though I had a reasonable hypothesis but I don’t think I have because it all seems to lead to a catch 22 of sorts.

Consider that the Citizen letter is not written by the zodiac.

Ok that’s reasonable after all it mentions nothing about the Zodiac and would appear to be against violence. So how would that affect us on an amateur level? Well it would rule out a connection to the desk poem for starters. Actually it would, by default, rule out any connection to any of the other evidence.

That’s were I, at least, start to run into problems. There is a connection and there always be and that connection is Sherwood Morril. Sure the most tenuous connection in our eyes is the Riverside stuff given that it’s made up of scrawls and writing on wood and something typed. Sherwood made a connection though and Zodiac (If to be believed) responded to that connection.

Back to the amateur side of things and I’ve seen possible connections to the citizen letter and the desk and maybe more. Whilst working on this recent stuff I’ve seen connections in other communication, authenticated by Sherwood, that I hadn’t noticed before but in respect of zodiac’s writing style, they are so obvious to me now.

So based on what I’ve seen so far concerning all this stuff, if Sherwood matched it it’s most probably a match. Not least because he was the Head of QD for CA.

Can I rule something as being connected by the fact that the writing just happened to be very similar. Absolutely

Can I rule something out if it’s been authenticated by Sherwood Morril? Never.

I’ve seen more things that corroborate Sherwood’s linking of these documents than evidence that doesn’t. It’s because of that, that any handwriting matches, if indeed a match, would suggest a person is more likely to be the zodiac than just someone who coincidently happened to have their writing included as part of a murder case.

But what if Sherwood did get something wrong?

See? Catch 22, it never ends.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Manalli was a strange character, as I have often found English majors to be a little quirky (like organists LOL).

He is a subject worth continuing to investigate, although it may be hard to find vital information.

The gun issue would be of paramount importance. I can’t remember if guns had to be registered at that time, but if the requirement was in place, try contacting the State of California under the FOIA and see if he purchased any.
I think mail-order guns was still in place, so the gun subject may reach a dead end. The people who knew Manelli would be in their late 70’s or 80’s, if any remain. I doubt if his students knew about his personal life, which I suspect was that of a loner, again something in common with Zodiac.

Duckking, you ask interesting questions – too bad the answers are not easy to find.

In regards to Sherwood Morril, he was an excellent document examinor.
But, that does not mean he could not make a mistake, and perhaps did in the Z case.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:27 am

A couple weeks ago, I Sent off a request for any existing FBI files for Manalli. Got a reply today that they are searching their files. Hope to hear back again within a few weeks. I am not real hopeful that they will have anything on file.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:18 am

Good work Morf.

Never say never. Not where Freddy’s concerned lol.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:33 am

Good work Morf.

Never say never. Not where Freddy’s concerned lol.

Never know :D



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:47 pm

Here are all Manilla’s in Rockforf Illinois 1959.

I belive that Fred Manilla’s parents is Irene H Manilla and Jack J Manilla
(in other records Jack is listed as John J Manalli)

Thise, I belive, are Fred Manalli’s parents death records:

Social Security Death Index
about Irene Manalli
Name: Irene Manalli
SSN: 348-10-0080
Last Residence: 61108 Rockford, Winnebago, Illinois, United States of America
Born: 8 Oct 1911
Last Benefit: 61108 Rockford, Winnebago, Illinois, United States of America
Died: Dec 1984
State (Year) SSN issued: Illinois (Before 1951)

Social Security Death Index
about John J. Manalli
Name: John J. Manalli
SSN: 348-10-0112
Last Residence: 61108 Rockford, Winnebago, Illinois, United States of America
Born: 27 Mar 1910
Died: 11 Mar 1992
State (Year) SSN issued: Illinois (Before 1951)

I also found this:

U.S., Department of Veterans Affairs BIRLS Death File, 1850-2010
about Fredric Manalli
Name: Fredric Manalli
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1935
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
SSN: 352264917
Branch 1: ARMY
Enlistment Date 1: 1 Oct 1957
Release Date 1: 25 Sep 1959



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:04 pm

Yes, TF Fred’s parents were Jack and Irene. They are named in the obituary that appeared in the newspaper. Fred had a sister, Mary Lou, who was quite a bit younger. She had a career in news broadcasting and worked at a TV station in the San Francisco Bay Area. As far as I know she did not move to the Bay Area until after her brother died. Here’s a youtube of a little bit of her broadcast, there are more if you google her name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oww5FDU3o7g

Griffith was in a motorcycle accident in a different part of Sonoma County. Manalli was the only one in his vehicle, the woman he hit was not killed.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:08 pm

Good stuff TF.

I found these from the winebago area register.

M933-0581 07/02/1933 MANALLI, GEORGE 25 SYDLOWSKI, MARY 23
M940-0521 09/07/1940 MANALLI, GEORGE 27 HAMANT, ROSE 23
M325-1947 10/10/1953 MANALLI, GEORGE J 45 MANALLI, MARY MARGARET 42
M934-0753 06/06/1934 MANALLI, JACK 25 MUROWSKI, IRENE 23
M912-0391 06/24/1912 MANALLI, JOHN 23 BEDWELL, LURLIE FAE 19
M307-2307 04/27/1946 MANALLI, JOSEPH A 26 CARUANA, CARMELLA J 25
M317-1705 10/07/1950 MANALLI, VICTOR M 30 VASCELLARO, LILLIAN 21

These are for marriages, there is also death and birth records.

http://files.usgwarchives.net/il/winnebago/vitals/



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:37 pm

Thanks Seagull and Trav:)

Found this today, it was published 1963:

http://www.worldcat.org/title/short-sto … lc/6247788

Short stories : The Blakentia sextet
Author: Frederic Steven Manalli

Edition/Format: Book : Fiction : Manuscript Archival Material : English
Rating: (not yet rated) 0 with reviews – Be the first.

Details
Material Type: Fiction, Manuscript
Document Type: Book, Archival Material
All Authors / Contributors: Frederic Steven Manalli
Find more information about: Frederic Steven Manalli
OCLC Number: 6247788
Notes: Typescript.
A creative work submitted to San Francisco State College in partial fulfillment for the degree Master of Arts. Description: 94 leaves ; 29 cm.
Other Titles: Blakentia sextet.
Responsibility: by Frederic Steven Manalli.

http://beta.worldcat.org/archivegrid/re … rd+Library

Short stories : The Blakentia sextet
Manalli, Frederic Steven.
Publication information:1963

94 leaves ; 29 cm.

San Francisco State University – J. Paul Leonard Library
Contact an Archivist to learn more about access to materials in this collection
Contact Information
Notes and summaries
Typescript.
A creative work submitted to San Francisco State College in partial fulfillment for the degree Master of Arts.
This collection covers:
AS36 1963 .M36
Related to:
Blakentia sextet.
OCLC WorldCat link: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/6247788

Does anyone know what "Blakentia" is?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:29 pm

Foreigner, I m trying to get my hands on that book, Blakentia Sextet. I dont know what BLAKENTIA means. If you google the word, the results are mostly all related to Manalli’s book.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:26 pm

I tried to get the Blakentia Sextet from San Francisco State not long after I first got the letters but ran into a stone wall because of construction at the university. All of the thesis had been moved off campus to another university and there was a problem locating it. I hope they have gotten things back together by now!



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Could it perhaps be a reference to the English writer and painter William Blake?

Three out of five serial killers prefer references to William Blake…



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:27 pm

Some more Manalli pics & stuff, I may have a few more things tomorrow. Unfortunately,these pics are also from the 1950’s.



, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:35 am

Three out of five serial killers prefer references to William Blake…

:lol:



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:09 am

Three out of five serial killers prefer references to William Blake…

:lol:

I concor, this one also made me ;)



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:49 pm

The pictures of Manalli came from college photos?

One big difference between now and the 1950’s – everybody dressed up for
formal occasions.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:41 pm

The pictures of Manalli came from college photos?

One big difference between now and the 1950’s – everybody dressed up for
formal occasions.

Those were High School photos. Here’s one more…of course, Manalli was in the drama club as seen in this photo-holding a sword or stick



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:48 pm

The pictures of Manalli came from college photos?

One big difference between now and the 1950’s – everybody dressed up for
formal occasions.

Those were High School photos. Here’s one more…of course, Manalli was in the drama club as seen in this photo-holding a sword or stick

Interesting Morf. On the black board…It says The Play is THE THING> Make me think of the Z " Do my Thing"



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:08 pm

A good observation fair Zam but alas methinks that may be a quote from Shakespeare.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:20 pm

A good observation fair Zam but alas methinks that may be a quote from Shakespeare.

Thanks AK, but thinking….he still could of liked or copied the verbiage. I know I do that, If I like a saying I tend to use it
now and then. But yes, The plays the thing, Hamlet by Shakespeare.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= … la6AOUgTkw

The Theme is interesting: Themes: family, murder and assassination, intrigue, deception.

Shakespeare Quote – "The plays the thing"

Hamlet:
I’ll have grounds
More relative than this—the play’s the thing
Wherein I’ll catch the conscience of the King.

Hamlet – Act 2, Scene 2



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:49 pm



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:51 am

Heard back from the FBI regarding Manalli,and they could not locate a file on Manalli. However,they noted that they could not searc their entire file system because the FBI is in the middle of loading all of their paper records on file into computerized format. Thats probably why its taking so long for the FBI to release all of their Zodiac files to me.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:25 pm

‘FBI is in the middle of loading all of their paper records on file into computerized format.

They are just doing that now??? I would have thought a project like that would have been done year ago.
However, the Fed Government is slow in getting around to that. They always talked about putting our records on microfiche – never did that either. I suppose money is an issue.

When they are through, you should have all they have and will release on Freddie Mertz. It will be worth it.

TRAINMASTER
————————————–
"She was the last word in luxery and speed. Before the last voyage, she was declared "unsinkable" by her owners. The rich and famous chose to sail in her.
Her sinking was the worst shock the world ever had."

RMS LUSITANIA May 7, 1915

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:32 pm

The likely problem is that when you have thousands of pages of physical files that you want to scan into a computer, you can’t do quick searches within the files for text like "Manalli" unless some kind of optical character recognition is performed on them. It’s an inexact science especially with old documents that are handwritten or faded or otherwise difficult to understand.

So, there could be some pages in there about Fred, but without proper transcriptions of the scanned files’ contents, it’s like finding a needle in a haystack.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:11 pm

Info on a classified ad posted in the SF Chronicle Aug 27, 1976 saying:

"ZODIAC, your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You’re next. The Imperial Wizard can save you. Surrender to him or I’ll terminate your case. R.A."

can be found on this thread :

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ters#30208

Here is a copy of a post on that thread and my reply to it concerning Fred Manalli:

On the last page of the article Tracers posted there is mention of a personals ad that appeared in the Chronicle. Here is the ad as published-

10-04-2010 Seagull, on zodiackiller.com, suggested that:
"the ad saying that Zodiac’s partner is in Deep Real Estate I think would mean that the partner is dead, six feet under ground."

NOW!…I just realized that TWO DAY previously of this add, August 25, 1976, Fred Manalli died!!!

SO!…was Fred Manalli Zodiac’s partner in crime???
And somone knew about it?

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Fredric S Manalli
Name: Fredric S Manalli
Social Security #: 352264917
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1935
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:23 pm

Wow Foreigner,I remember this thread and this classified AD. Really interesting as far as the timing and with Manalli’s death. Will have to look at this closer. Thanks

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:13 pm

This just gets better and better. Seagull, you (at least I think it was you) mentioned that someone (in LE?) believed that Manalli and another person were responsible for the SRHMs… and after they were gone, there were no more murders. Do you know who the other person was?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:22 pm

Good stuff TF. Weird ad, this is the first time I’ve heard about it.

Ok, I’ve been going through Manalli’s Blaketia Sextet.

There are of course many references to murder and killing and death and some pretty abstract stuff that could be interpreted as "Zodiacesque". I was going to start with them but I found this interesting and have decided to go with it first.

One thing that seems evident to me is that Manalli models his characters on himself. Whether it’s narcissism or limited imagination I can’t say. But I’d go for both lol.

The description below is of the main character in the story "May Day". First of all various elements are similar to the description of Zodiac and some are, I think, of Manalli. I’ve included the pics of him sourced by Morf to illustrate. It would be interesting to see if the bit about dental work shows up in any army docs we might get.

The bit for me though is about the nose. The description of a once "Norman" shaped nose being flattened and twisted due to boxing jumped out at me for two reasons.

1. It solves the appearance of Manalli’s apparently large nose with an explanation that may well be something that actually happened to him. I have shown what I think are differences in his photos regarding this. In the first image It appears that he has a very shallow, practically non existent, bridge. In the other photos the bridge appears to be deeper and actually present.

2. One of the first things I had floating around in my noggin concerning the Stine composite was possible reasons for the way the nose was drawn. One of my theories was that I wondered if it had been drawn that way to give it a more flattened appearance. The amended sketch certainly seems to have flattened the nose more. I also wondered if this was because the Zodiac had been a boxer or a football player.

Those are my thoughts on it. I may be drawing connections where there aren’t any but why are they so easy to draw in the first place.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:16 pm

Okay Trav, some good things you mention,but I cant make out the small red writing and examples from the book(too small). Also, with the photo comparisons, in page 1 of this thread,is the original pic posted by Seagull, which is from his college year.Its the most recent of ALL the pics, but its still fromlike 58/59 or around there. His lips look tight in it,which reminds me of the Zodiac sketch as does his chin & jaw. Like I said,its the most recent pic of Manalli that we can find but I know there HAS to be more someplace in the world, and I want to find one from 1969.

EDIT:

Actually, heres the pic and its from 57-



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:25 am

Sorry bout that.

Here’s a cropped version hopefully easier to see.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:45 pm

Info on a classified ad posted in the SF Chronicle Aug 27, 1976 saying:

"ZODIAC, your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You’re next. The Imperial Wizard can save you. Surrender to him or I’ll terminate your case. R.A."

can be found on this thread :

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ters#30208

Here is a copy of a post on that thread and my reply to it concerning Fred Manalli:

On the last page of the article Tracers posted there is mention of a personals ad that appeared in the Chronicle. Here is the ad as published-

10-04-2010 Seagull, on zodiackiller.com, suggested that:
"the ad saying that Zodiac’s partner is in Deep Real Estate I think would mean that the partner is dead, six feet under ground."

NOW!…I just realized that TWO DAY previously of this add, August 25, 1976, Fred Manalli died!!!

SO!…was Fred Manalli Zodiac’s partner in crime???
And somone knew about it?

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Fredric S Manalli
Name: Fredric S Manalli
Social Security #: 352264917
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1935
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma

I am still kicking this around. Anybody have any ideas or theories? I really have a hard time buying a Zodiac ‘team’ theory,but the timing of this AD is crazy as it relates to Manalli’s death. Think about it,Manalli is killed the night of 8/25/76. The next day,8/26/76 is when most people would have learned about his death. It would be too late for somebody to put a personal ad into that day’s paper(the day of the 26th),so it would have to start the following day,on the 27th,WHICH IT DID! That is downright spooky. Any attempt by police to find out who paid for or placed the AD?



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:58 pm

I don’t know about the ad – it could be pure coincidence.

I would return to the scene of the accident. WHY did Manalli do what he did?
To try to pass a car? Maybe someone put something in his coffee or something to induce a heart attack?
He had to swerve to avoid something?

We would have to try to obtain and read the coroner’s report for anything on Manalli – was he intoxicated? Chance of foul play? The coronor’s report would rule out most of the above. Getting ahold of it! Almost imossible!

Then, obtain the accident report and read it. A good chance.

The other driver survived – if she is still around and would talk, perhaps she could describe what took place to cause the accident.

The position of the vehicles would be of paramount importance in establishing what might have happened – that would be in the accident report.

Manalli was too poor to be in real estate. Was he is some sort of deep trouble with someone or LE? They did find those drawings relating to the murder of Kim Wendy Allen. Was Manalli interrogated yet?

Finally, is it possible Manalli was in such a frantic mind that he decided to "end it all" as he threatened to do in his letters? He could have been in such a state-of-mind that he didn’t care who he took along, but I don’t think that was the reason for the accident.

Where was the accident scene, again. Highway 12 and what? I would like to Google the area via street maps; I have travelled over that road many times.

Things to ponder.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:17 pm

According to Manalli’s death certificate the accident was on Hwy 12, 2,745 feet East of Merced Ave. The accident happened Aug. 24, 1976 at 8:30 pm. He died after midnight at 1:25 am to be precise, hence the Aug, 25th date of death. The newspaper article says he was eastbound on Hwy 12, so he was headed away from his home at the time. He lived at 6665 Sebastopol Ave. Sebastopol, the Shady Rest Trailer Park.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:01 pm

So I was checking out Blaketia again and decided to check one of the references Manalli made to "the knights of colombus"and "Ku Klux Klan".

This is how I found out that Imperial wizard is a Klan Title.

Then I spotted this and thought….hmmm. interresting.

Once African Americans secured federal legislation to protect civil and voting rights, the KKK shifted its focus to opposing court-ordered busing to desegregate schools, affirmative action and more open immigration. In 1971, KKK members used bombs to destroy 10 school buses in Pontiac, Michigan.

EDIT: So maybe what I’m wondering is if the ad was Klan related and maybe they used zodiac for a code word (they did use codewords) for reference to activities involving bomb making or for a bomb maker, inspired by the actual Zodiac’s bus bomb threats?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:24 pm

So it would seems that nothing can be discussed – EVER – without it having some sort of Manalli/Zodiac connection.

I’ve been reading about Nathan Bedford Forrest. Yes, note the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

General Bedford Forrest appears as a character in William Faulkner’s 1943 short story "My Grandmother Millard and General Bedford Forrest and The Battle of Harrykin Creek." The Confederate general’s engagements with a U.S. General Smith (presumably Maj. Gen. Andrew J. Smith) in northern Mississippi and southwestern Tennessee are part of the setting of that story and of Faulkner’s 1938 novel "The Unvanquished." In Faulkner’s 1942 collection "Go Down, Moses," the story "The Bear" refers to a plantation ledger entry recording the purchase of a 26-year-old slave in March 1856 for $265 "from N.B. Forest [sic]."

Forrest is credited with being one of the founding members, if not THE founding member, of the original incarnation of the KKK which he later disbanded.

EDIT: To add the obvious, subject matter of this nature, naturally involves extensive use of the words slaves & negroe

EDIT:

zodiac [ˈzəʊdɪˌæk]
n
1. (Spirituality, New Age, Astrology & Self-help / Astrology) an imaginary belt extending 8° either side of the ecliptic, which contains the 12 zodiacal constellations and within which the moon and planets appear to move. It is divided into 12 equal areas, called signs of the zodiac, each named after the constellation which once lay in it
2. (Spirituality, New Age, Astrology & Self-help / Astrology) Astrology a diagram, usually circular, representing this belt and showing the symbols, illustrations, etc., associated with each of the 12 signs of the zodiac, used to predict the future
3. Rare a complete circuit; circle
[from Old French zodiaque, from Latin zōdiacus, from Greek zōidiakos (kuklos) (circle) of signs, from zōidion animal sign, carved figure, from zōion animal]
zodiacal [zəʊˈdaɪəkəl] adj

KKK
The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee, by six veterans of the Confederate Army.[15] They named it after the Greek word kuklos, which means circle. The name suggests a circle or band of brothers[16]

EDIT:

Some visual zynchronicity

Three Ku Klux Klan members arrested in Tishomingo County, Mississippi, September 1871, for the attempted murder of an entire family.

EDIT: I should add that prior to the war Forrest was a slave master. IT’s just as well his name wasn’t Cherry. Lol

So what are my thoughts on this regarding Manalli. Well there’s a good chance Manalli read Faulkner’s book about Forrest. Both Manalli and Zodiac, whether they be one and the same or not, seem preoccupied with identity and also their own lack thereof. Zodiac, whoever he was, seemed to create more of the Zodiac than a name as I have previously stated, it was an identity, a persona. Manalli gives me the impression of doing the same by injecting himself into his characters and also by the general tone of his letters I can see him being the kind of man who wishes he was someone else, someone important.

Reading about Forrest, he certainly seems to be an imposing and fearsome character. Given to feats of murderous, and some might say, psychotic acts of bravery, or savagery depending which accounts of his deeds you read. His physical description alone might have connected with Manalli or Zodiac.

"In person he is six feet one inch and a half in height, with broad shoulders, a full chest and symmetrical, muscular limbs, erect in carriage, and weighs 185 pounds; dark gray eyes, dark hair, mustache, and beard worn upon the chin; a set of regular set teeth and clearly cut features," which altogether, makes him rather a handsome man for one forty-seven years of age.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:23 am

Here’s the part from Blaketia that had me looking at that stuff.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:37 am

Comments welcome on this one. Does anyone know what a tarbox is? There are many references to it being a name. The only other reference I can find for it, which makes sense, is from John Updike’s novel "Couples" which is centred in the fictional town of Tarbox.

You may also note the homosexual references in this section. The biting buttocks bit got me but I don’t think it all that stuff about Bundy came out till after Manalli was dead.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:45 am

A rather unusual metaphor.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:19 am

From "A Day That Might Never Come"

An obvious reference to this:-

Berlin ultimatum
In November 1958, Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev issued an ultimatum giving the Western powers six months to agree to withdraw from Berlin and make it a free, demilitarized city. At the end of that period, Khrushchev declared, the Soviet Union would turn over to East Germany complete control of all lines of communication with West Berlin; the western powers then would have access to West Berlin only by permission of the East German government. The United States, United Kingdom, and France replied to this ultimatum by firmly asserting their determination to remain in West Berlin and to maintain their legal right of free access to that city.

So it’s a reasonable assumption, given Manalli’s service dates and mentioning living in Germany and specifically referencing Berlin, that he was stationed there for this occurrence and has used the experience as part of his writing.

The one thing I can’t get out of my is that theory, or suggestion, that the Timex watch found at the CJB murder scene my have been bought at a military PX in Europe.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:26 am

Some interesting Finds to kick around Trav. Personally, although the timing of the personal AD 2 days after Manalli died is incredible,I dont want to go too far off looking for clues about it because you never know where of when it will end. As far as a ‘Tarbox’,here are some possible things:

Tarbox, Massachusetts is a fictional town that serves as the setting for the 1968 novel Couples and several short stories by American author John Updike. It is based on Ipswich, Massachusetts, the small coastal town where Updike lived from 1957 to 1974.
It’s interesting partly as a period piece, but it also shows (along with a few of the stories in "Tarbox Tales") John Updike discovering what, in my opinion, is still his most interesting and most enduring subject.”

Maybe Manalli was a fan of this guy?

John Hoyer Updike (March 18, 1932 – January 27, 2009)[1] was an American novelist, poet, short story writer, art critic, and literary critic.Updike’s most famous work is his Harry "Rabbit" Angstrom series (the novels Rabbit, Run; Rabbit Redux; Rabbit Is Rich; Rabbit At Rest; and the novella "Rabbit Remembered"), which chronicles Rabbit’s life over the course of several decades, from young adulthood to his death. Both Rabbit Is Rich (1981) and Rabbit At Rest (1990) received the Pulitzer Prize. Updike is one of only three authors (the others were Booth Tarkington and William Faulkner) to win the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction more than once. He published more than twenty novels and more than a dozen short story collections, as well as poetry, art criticism, literary criticism and children’s books. Hundreds of his stories, reviews, and poems appeared in The New Yorker, starting in 1954. He also wrote regularly for The New York Review of Books.Later, Updike and his family relocated to Ipswich, Massachusetts. Many commentators, including a columnist in the local Ipswich Chronicle, asserted that the fictional town of Tarbox in Couples was based on Ipswich. Updike denied the suggestion in a letter to the paper.[13] Impressions of Updike’s day-to-day life in Ipswich during the 1960s and 1970s are included in a letter to the same paper published soon after Updike’s death and written by a friend and contemporary.[14] In Ipswich, Updike wrote Rabbit, Run (1960), on a Guggenheim Fellowship, and The Centaur (1963), two of his most acclaimed and famous works; the latter won the National Book Award.



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:52 am

Comments welcome on this one. Does anyone know what a tarbox is? There are many references to it being a name. The only other reference I can find for it, which makes sense, is from John Updike’s novel "Couples" which is centred in the fictional town of Tarbox.

No idea. Does it actually say ‘tarbox’ looks like the ‘t’ was missed originally? Maybe it’s a misspelling of hatbox? What is written in the very next paragraph, maybe there’s a clue?

EDIT: I found this reference: n. A box containing tar, carried by shepherds for anointing sores on sheep.

Perhaps it can also mean any small box that holds some sort of lotion or cream in more modern times?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:58 am

Yeah, it’s definitely tarbox. Looks worse here than on the PDF. Good find on the other references.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:06 am

Maybe Manalli was a fan of this guy?

Or Jealous of him lol. I would say it’s a fair chance he read his stuff. And Faulkner’s stuff as well as we know he did. That’s why I found the KKK stuff interesting because an account of that would have contained killings, hoods, death by fire, gun, knife and rope. Fire and rope being the most prominent. Slaves and not to mention Forrest. It always bugged me that one and I wondered was it really a spelling mistake. Who knows.

There’s maybe also something in what was written on the HC envelope, or rather how it was written. The KKK was long associated with the burning cross symbol but that wasn’t originally it was represented, as the upright cross. It was originally the St Stephen cross from the Scottish flag, basically and x. The same configuration of the "sorry no cipher" message.



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:46 am

Probably total coincidence but there are some interesting parallels in Updike’s ‘Couples’. Not saying that Manalli read this, just found them when looking for ‘tarbox’.

The "couples" of the title are ten married pairs living in Tarbox, Massachusetts, whose lives are governed by a "calendrical wheel" of parties and … It "fucks up our party," as the resident games- master, Freddy Thorne, puts it (294).

By the way, Freddy is a dentist (as per Boniface in the text by Manalli):

Over the whole group hovers the satanic, death-worshiping Freddy Thorne. He is a dentist by trade

Of course, his name is Freddy too!

"What Freddy Thorne sees in me…" She deflected the compliment. "He thinks we’re a circle. A magic circle of heads to keep the night out.

EDIT: I haven’t read Manalli’s book (Blakenia Sextet) so this is more of a question to Trav:

Can you see parallel’s between ‘Couples’ (about 10 philandering couples in a fake town called Tarbox) and Blakentia (i.e. is this the name of a fake town in the novel) Sextet (does this refer to a number of characters in the book?)



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:52 am

In secret societies The Brotherhood primarily refers to the Order of the Free Masons. The Skull and Bones society, a collegiate society was also called the Brotherhood, as well as the KKK, and apparently the name for the revolutionary group in Orwell’s 1984. All of these groups have symbols which use crosses and other geometric shapes, but don’ t really look like the Zodiac symbol, which most resembles a Celtic cross, outside of astrology. The symbol is used by many white power and racist groups, as other members have noticed. In particular the Minutemen.

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_celtic_cross.asp

Was Manelli connected to any racist organization? I couldn’t find any specific symbols for any Bocce ball clubs, but you can find ones that use a stylized ball design that sorta looks Zodiac-ish. The game is popular amongst Italian-Americans, who generally happen to be Catholic. I bring that up because of the mention of the Knights Of Columbus, a Catholic group. Other groups like the Masons and the Klan are anti-Catholic. The use of the Celtic cross doesn’t seem to have any specific catholic or protestant connotation among white power groups, as far as I know, but I think most of them in America are Protestant.

Was FM Catholic?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:52 am

EDIT: I haven’t read Manalli’s book (Blakenia Sextet) so this is more of a question to Trav:

Can you see parallel’s between ‘Couples’ (about 10 philandering couples in a fake town called Tarbox) and Blakentia (i.e. is this the name of a fake town in the novel) Sextet (does this refer to a number of characters in the book?)

I can yes, especially the Dentist bit. Possible influence at least, it’s hard to parallel … ok I’m going to abbreviate it from now on to the rather apt BS (hehehe)… it’s hard to parallel BS because it’s slightly unusual. It’s less like reading a short story and more like reading someone’s account of a dream they had.

As for the ‘Sextet’ bit, no, it actually refers to the number of stories that make up the BS, or rather ‘made’ up as there should have been size but only five were published. No idea what or where the sixth one was.

Was FM Catholic?

No idea. Morf?, Seagull?

I don’t recall anything in his letters that indicate what he was. For some reason I’m thinking Catholic but that may be because of the Italianish name. His general lack of immediate family though might suggest otherwise.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:20 am

Idont know if Manalli was catholic or not. With an italian last name,if I had to guess,I would say yes. I will see if I have any addl details in any of the obits for him



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:53 am

Comments welcome on this one. Does anyone know what a tarbox is? There are many references to it being a name. The only other reference I can find for it, which makes sense, is from John Updike’s novel "Couples" which is centred in the fictional town of Tarbox.

Concerning Tarbox as a name connected to the Zodiac case:

"In 2009, a lawyer named Robert Tarbox (who, in 1975, had his law license suspended in California for failure to pay some clients) said that in 1972 a merchant marine walked into his office and confessed to him that he was the Zodiac Killer. The seemingly lucid seaman (whose name Tarbox would not reveal due to confidentiality) described his crimes briefly but persuasively enough to convince Tarbox. The man claimed he was trying to stop himself from his "opportunistic" murder spree but never returned to see Tarbox again. Tarbox took out a full-page ad in the Vallejo Times-Herald in which he cleared the name of Arthur Leigh Allen as a killer, his only reason for revealing the story 30 years after the fact."

But! this incident took place in 1972, 6 years AFTER FM wrote that "Blakenia Sextet" book.

I know this Robert Tarbox probably had nothing to do with the tarbox reference in FM’s "Blakenia Sextet" book, just wanted to mention it.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:46 am

Lot’s of stuff to address this morning regarding recent posts.

First I would say yes, Manalli was Catholic. He was buried in Calvary Cemetery in Santa Rosa. It is a Catholic cemetery.

http://www.catholiccemeteries-dsr.org/C … _Rosa.html

Coincidentally, the first two SRHM victims, Maureen Sterling and Yvonne Weber are also buried in that same cemetery.

TF, I too made the connection between Manalli’s writing of "tarbox" in his Blalentia Sextet story and the attorney Tarbox. Manalli wrote the word about three or four times so there is no denying that it is the word he meant. If we were to imagine that Manalli is the Zodiac and the story that Robert Tarbox told is true then it would seem to fit quite nicely. The trouble I have with considering that scenario is Manalli tended to think of himself as an intellectual not a worker and I doubt that Manalli would know much about being a merchant marine. Another obstacle would be the merchant marine Z-card that was shown to Tarbox. It could have been a forged or stolen document but Manalli did not strike me as the type to have the street smarts to come up with something like that. He really seemed oblivious to the world around him, as if he did not consider things outside of the world in his own head where he was the next literary genius waiting for recognition.

Trav, the title story in Manalli’s thesis Blakentia Sextet is made up in six parts, I think that is where the Sextet come in to play. I believe the thesis itself is complete and there is no missing sixth story.

Manalli’s letters seem to indicate that he has grandmother issues. The Blakentia Sextet story has a matron type character, Seraphina, who I would guess is fashioned after his grandmother. Seraphina is gunned down by machinegun fire in the story. I thought that part was rather telling. I have not read the entire thesis yet, just the first two stories but it does seem to me that Manalli is writing from the heart, fictionalizing his own life experiences.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:49 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
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Topic starter
 



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:24 pm

But! this incident took place in 1972, 6 years AFTER FM wrote that "Blakenia Sextet" book.

I know this Robert Tarbox probably had nothing to do with the tarbox reference in FM’s "Blakenia Sextet" book, just wanted to mention it.

I was thinking of that too TF first time I read the word but I didn’t think it would be anything to do with and it’s good to have the date discrepancy confirmed.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:29 pm

But! this incident took place in 1972, 6 years AFTER FM wrote that "Blakenia Sextet" book.

I know this Robert Tarbox probably had nothing to do with the tarbox reference in FM’s "Blakenia Sextet" book, just wanted to mention it.

I was thinking of that too TF first time I read the word but I didn’t think it would be anything to do with and it’s good to have the date discrepancy confirmed.

I too thought of Tarbox the attorney,but dismissed it because Manalli wasnt a merchant marine.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:40 pm

Trav, the title story in Manalli’s thesis Blakentia Sextet is made up in six parts, I think that is where the Sextet come in to play. I believe the thesis itself is complete and there is no missing sixth story.

Manalli’s letters seem to indicate that he has grandmother issues. The Blakentia Sextet story has a matron type character, Seraphina, who I would guess is fashioned after his grandmother. Seraphina is gunned down by machinegun fire in the story. I thought that part was rather telling. I have not read the entire thesis yet, just the first two stories but it does seem to me that Manalli is writing from the heart, fictionalizing his own life experiences.

Yup, got that on the missing sixth story. I rem him saying that in his letters. Also took note of the Seraphina incident and was thinking since he does seem to fictionalize his experiences and the mention of his Grandmother stuff, how that and other things might be reflected in his writing.

The story "The Survivor" is rather interesting. Can’t wait to hear interpretations of that one. I went back to the PDF there to check the name and landed on this bit.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:05 pm

Hmmm, notice anything interesting about the design on bocce balls?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:32 pm

Okay, I am super busy at work and its 100 degrees here,so I might have missed something. What is the signifcance of the Bocce Balls? I see the design pattern looks like the crosshair symbol. Dont tell me, Manalli played Bocce Ball :D



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:42 pm



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:39 pm

Very interesting Trav. Was there any Bocce clues in Zodiac’s writings,besides the crosshair symbol?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:03 pm

not that I can think of, off the top of my head.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:15 pm

I was searching online for any unsolved murders that may have occured at the right times in the many places that Manalli was known to be going by the information in his letters to Curley and found a strange story about a Lovers Lane murder that was committed outside of Rockford Illinois in 1948.

At the time this double murder was committed Manalli would have been 12 years old so there is no chance he could have done the murders. One of the victims was from Rockford though and it was front page news in the local newspaper. Could these murders have made an impression on Manalli?

The strange part of the murders was revealed some 60 years after the crime. A man named Mike Arians who started looking into the unsolved case 14 years ago was able with the help of the surviving brother of the female victim, Mary Jane Reed, was able to exhume her body for forensic testing. It was discovered that the skull was not that of Mary Jane Reed but that of someone with an Asian heritage. Naturally, I thought of Jeannette Kamahele who has never been located.

It would be very doubtful that Manalli could have pulled this off but not impossible. I do not know if after decades one could tell the difference between a 40 year old skull and one that is 60 years old. Manalli has surprised me regarding his stories and letters, Morf, Trav and others have brought out so many parallels with Zodiac that I just did not see so I’m just throwing this out there for consideration.

Here’s a link to the first story I read on the 1948 double murder. There are many more stories about Arians’s quest for answers if you google.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011 … la-s-buick

This is a link to the Mary Jane Reed Foundation with many links within. There are vintage newspaper articles in one of the links.

http://www.maryjanereed.com/



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:30 pm

its 100 degrees here

You in Maryland by any chance? :)



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:35 pm

its 100 degrees here

You in Maryland by any chance? :)

NJ :x



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:36 pm

I was searching online for any unsolved murders that may have occured at the right times in the many places that Manalli was known to be going by the information in his letters to Curley and found a strange story about a Lovers Lane murder that was committed outside of Rockford Illinois in 1948.

At the time this double murder was committed Manalli would have been 12 years old so there is no chance he could have done the murders. One of the victims was from Rockford though and it was front page news in the local newspaper. Could these murders have made an impression on Manalli?

The strange part of the murders was revealed some 60 years after the crime. A man named Mike Arians who started looking into the unsolved case 14 years ago was able with the help of the surviving brother of the female victim, Mary Jane Reed, was able to exhume her body for forensic testing. It was discovered that the skull was not that of Mary Jane Reed but that of someone with an Asian heritage. Naturally, I thought of Jeannette Kamahele who has never been located.

It would be very doubtful that Manalli could have pulled this off but not impossible. I do not know if after decades one could tell the difference between a 40 year old skull and one that is 60 years old. Manalli has surprised me regarding his stories and letters, Morf, Trav and others have brought out so many parallels with Zodiac that I just did not see so I’m just throwing this out there for consideration.

Here’s a link to the first story I read on the 1948 double murder. There are many more stories about Arians’s quest for answers if you google.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011 … la-s-buick

This is a link to the Mary Jane Reed Foundation with many links within. There are vintage newspaper articles in one of the links.

http://www.maryjanereed.com/

Thanks Deb, very interesting..I will have to re-read this closer later tonight. So you are saying that when they exhumed one of the lovers lanes victims,one of the skulls was not the victim’s,but was instead an asian skull?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:40 pm

Yes, the skull in Mary Jane’s casket was not hers but that of someone with Asian heritage. It’s a real off the wall idea perhaps inspired by Manalli’s downright weird sense of literary genius! LOL

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:53 pm

its 100 degrees here

You in Maryland by any chance? :)

I am. And yes, it sucks here too.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:12 pm

For those of you on the West Coast, the Eastern heat and humidity combination make it downright miserable on the East Coast.

I have no idea about skulls, but maybe dental records are a way of determining age. A pathologist could answer that question. After all, they have determined age in skeletons and dating them back hundreds of years.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:55 pm

I have no idea about skulls, but maybe dental records are a way of determining age. A pathologist could answer that question. After all, they have determined age in skeletons and dating them back hundreds of years.

I did not mean the age of the victim. Reed was 17 years old by some accounts, 18 by others and Kamahele was 19 years old when she went missing. I think those ages would be too close for anyone to make that determination. Although, if the skull belonged to someone who was 40 years old that might something easier to determine.

What I meant was, would it be possible to determine if the skull had been there for 40 years or 60 years. In other words could anyone one determine how long the person whose skull was in Reed’s casket had been dead?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:42 pm

A short story written by Manalli and published in Summer of 1969. I do not know the lead time for this publication, probably more than a few weeks, but if was released right at the beginning of summer it would have been about the third week in June.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:12 pm

"What I meant was, would it be possible to determine if the skull had been there for 40 years or 60 years. In other words could anyone one determine how long the person whose skull was in Reed’s casket had been dead?"

Try your local county coroner’s office. You may have to explain your question in general, but, if anyone can answer it,
the medical examinor could.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Thanks for posting that Seagull.

Check this bit out :shock:

It says "Hang by your thumbs" in case it’s hard to read.

EDIT: With the little list.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:52 pm



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:59 pm

Not sure if this is important but if it’s from life experiences then it shows messing around with guns from an early age.

EDIT: Actually it might be important because if this was true he may have had to get glasses?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:20 pm

And finally…boots and symbols.

EDIT: Symbols are of no significance. They are just end devices as part of the publication’s design.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:46 pm

It’s interesting that the refers to Oscsar as Oscar, then Oz then Old Wizard.

I found this a while ago when looking at the Halloween card.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:26 pm

Thanks for posting that Seagull.

Check this bit out :shock:

It says "Hang by your thumbs" in case it’s hard to read.

EDIT: With the little list.

Thats absolutely incredible! ‘HANG BY THEIR THUMBS’ & ‘HANG BY YOUR THUMBS’….this is hust another coincidence :roll: Actually I am being sarcastic, I find that to be beyond a typical coincidence.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:29 pm

Thanks for posting this writing Seagull….whats your take on it?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:07 pm

I think it’s beyond simple coincidence. For one thing there’s nothing in that part of the story, that I can see, even warrants that sign off or makes sense of it. It’s just outta left field.

Here’s the different sign offs he uses for each part.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:09 pm

This story was a lot more readable than any in the Blakentia Sextet. Manalli was engaging and drew me into the story, that is until the very end which I found uninspired and a total cop out! I’d say Manalli was terribly narcissistic and felt superior to those around him. Anything is possible with a personality like that. His sense of right and wrong had more to do with how life affected him than the conventional rules and standards.

I’d like to find a story that he wrote that has something to do with codes. That’s the one large piece missing for me.

It may very well be that Manalli is not Zodiac but that Zodiac is a person about the same age as Manalli with the same level of education and background. Many times you can tell a person’s age by the wording and catch phrases they use without ever having met them. Our parents and their friends are perfect examples. You know when your talking to someone’s parents.

I don’t think that exploring Manalli is a lost cause because if he isn’t Zodiac I feel he at the least is giving us some insight as to what type of person Zodiac is and an idea of his personality.

At the beginning of the book there is a short bit about each of the contributors to this edition. Manalli’s reads-

"F.S. Manalli lives in Santa Rosa, California. He has published a story in Perspective and poems in Southwesterner and Outlet."

The story in Perspective is Paradise, It’s A Nice Place and I’m trying to get it. I do not know the titles of the poems or when they were published in the other two books.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:26 pm

There is the Joyce and Bryce connection to the codes but that’s speculation. It would be nice to see direct evidence of Manalli and codes.

I had a thought that maybe the reason we’re seeing so many similarities was because Manalli was following the Zodiac case and picked up some words and phrases. Except Manalli wrote about "hanging by thumbs" about a year before Zodiac did.

Maybe Zodiac was copying Manalli lol.



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:33 pm

Might be worth mentioning that there was a radio show by two characters called Bob and Ray in the 1950’s. Ray would usually sign off "This is Ray Goulding reminding you to write if you get work" and Bob would then reply with "…hang by your thumbs" which loosely meant "don’t hold your breath".

I’m pretty sure this would have been a well known and popular catchphrase in that era and Manalli might well have just been signing off with the catchphrase? To use that great film "Anchorman" as an analogy, I suppose it’s a bit like various people over the last 6 or 7 years or so using the phrase "Stay classy San Diego…"!

More details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_and_Ray



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:37 pm

There is the Joyce and Bryce connection to the codes but that’s speculation. It would be nice to see direct evidence of Manalli and codes.

I had a thought that maybe the reason we’re seeing so many similarities was because Manalli was following the Zodiac case and picked up some words and phrases. Except Manalli wrote about "hanging by thumbs" about a year before Zodiac did.

Maybe Zodiac was copying Manalli lol.

So maybe Zodiac was following Manalli???? Maybe Zodiac was inspired by Manalli’s mentions of Joyce,his fondness of the word ‘SHALL’ etc. Possibly a student of his? Then again, that doesnt explain the similarities in writing,etc. Also doesnt explain away Manalli’s frequent mention of violence,and murder, and of his own ill mental health. I too would like to see some code connections to Manalli. Maybe his military file will show one,but time will tell



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:48 pm

Might be worth mentioning that there was a radio show by two characters called Bob and Ray in the 1950’s. Ray would usually sign off "This is Ray Goulding reminding you to write if you get work" and Bob would then reply with "…hang by your thumbs" which loosely meant "don’t hold your breath".

I’m pretty sure this would have been a well known and popular catchphrase in that era and Manalli might well have just been signing off with the catchphrase? To use that great film "Anchorman" as an analogy, I suppose it’s a bit like various people over the last 6 or 7 years or so using the phrase "Stay classy San Diego…"!

More details here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_and_Ray

I had to have a think about this but it’s good to know. I’m not sure Manalli’s sign off in the story works the same way though because it’s a one way conversation and for it to be in context he would have to be answering himself back in his sign off with regards the last lines he’s written.

EDIT: BTW Quagmire, I was watching family guy the other week and apparently you were Jack the Ripper. You kept that quiet lol.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:52 pm

There is the Joyce and Bryce connection to the codes but that’s speculation. It would be nice to see direct evidence of Manalli and codes.

I had a thought that maybe the reason we’re seeing so many similarities was because Manalli was following the Zodiac case and picked up some words and phrases. Except Manalli wrote about "hanging by thumbs" about a year before Zodiac did.

Maybe Zodiac was copying Manalli lol.

So maybe Zodiac was following Manalli???? Maybe Zodiac was inspired by Manalli’s mentions of Joyce,his fondness of the word ‘SHALL’ etc. Possibly a student of his? Then again, that doesnt explain the similarities in writing,etc. Also doesnt explain away Manalli’s frequent mention of violence,and murder, and of his own ill mental health. I too would like to see some code connections to Manalli. Maybe his military file will show one,but time will tell

Yeah it wouldn’t explain the handwriting.

Apropos nothing. Manailli mentioned in his letters re, the army, and about getting called up again that "he couldn’t gut another hitch" which I assume to mean he spent a lot of time tying things.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:01 pm

I think "hitch" refers to his time in the Army that was required. He signed on as a reserve but was called to active duty after he completed his BA degree. Because he was a reservist he was required to serve two years active duty and four years of reserve duty. If he had "hitched up" with the Army for two more years active duty he would have fullfillied his requirement for serving his country. It’s probably a idiom that only American’s use when referring to their service time.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:11 pm

Yes I noticed he used that in the last story there and it made sense in that context. I suppose then for the other time to make sense in that context "gut" means stomach, naturally? I just thought it was an odd word to use and in knot tying you do "gut a hitch" so I wasn’t sure exactly what Manalli meant by it.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:41 pm

You take one or two things, its a coincidence. Several things, its a pattern. We have a pattern here:

1- Similairites in writing,as far as appearance,structure,design,and habits

2- The use of the word ‘Shall’ by Manalli, many times in his writings. People thought that Zodiac might even be british because of his frequent odd use of a the word ‘shall’ which most people didnt use.

3-Manalli’s mention of James joyce, and many of Zodiac’s exact misspellings found in Joyce’s work.

4-Using terms like "hang by thumbs" etc

5- At the time Zodiac wrote a letter mentioning ‘slaves in Paradise’, Manalli was putting finishing touches on a story called ‘Paradise,its a nice place’

6-Manalli mentioning that he doesnt want to have to resort to more violence, rape etc, and in on letter he writes "please stop me before I kill again" which is almost the same phrasing of the Zodiac letter to Belli

7-Manalli’s mention of his fragile mental & physical health. He repeatedly mentions that he mentally has issues, and also has physical issues, one of which,might make him have an odd walk.

8-The fact that Manalli was a suspect in a crime, albeit,not the Zodiac case,but he was connected in a sort to the Zodiac through Graysmith’s book. There was a person or persons that seemed to connect him to the Zodiac case

9- Around the time the Zodiac murders & letters were going strong, Manalli was getting a divorce(1970). If he was getting a divorce in 1970,isnt it safe to assume he could have had some issues or problems in 68-69 when the Z case started?

10- Zodiac’s last confirmed letter was in 1974. That same year, Manalli moved back to Illinois. At some point in 1975 or 76, he moved back to CA, and was killed soon after. There was neevr another confirmed Z letter.

There are several more things that seem to connect Manalli to Zodiac, and I think this thread is proof. Still, I want to see more, as would police I am sure.

1- Proof that Manalli owned, or shot guns.

2-Proof that Manalli had some interest or training with codes.

3- I think his prints are someplace, somewhere on file. Do they match any Z case prints?

4- I am one of the people that believe there is very likely a link between Zodiac & Riverside. Although it was written by Graysmith that he had ties to Riverside, I have found no proof of that,nor has anybody else to my knowledge.

Manalli was 6ft3 which is taller than most descriptions of Zodiac, although the one Fouke mention puts Z at possibly 6ft2. But Manalli,seems to resemble closely enough, the Z sketch. I would love to see a photo of him in 69, and see if him with glasses on.

As far as circumstantial evidence goes,this guy seems to stack up well against Arthur Leigh Allen. If Manalli lived in Vallejo,I dont see how he wouldnt be a strong suspect, and feel that a deep search into this man is still warranted.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:51 pm

Morf wrote:
As far as circumstantial evidence goes,this guy seems to stack up well against Arthur Leigh Allen. If Manalli lived in Vallejo,I dont see how he wouldnt be a strong suspect, and feel that a deep search into this man is still warranted.

Yes, and we should consider that Manalli was possibly only the letter-writer part of a Team Zodiac, as Graysmith suggests. If so, what would be the significance of publishing that story in the summer of 1969, if any? Could be a way of saying that he wanted to/planned to walk away from the whole project?

I liked the The Story of the Vanishing Redman. FRedmanalli. Seems like it could be a metaphor for something in his life, maybe hiding in the attic as a child, to get out of doing whatever. Anyway, Overri got caught because he was making noise. Could be saying to the other member(s) of Team Z, "I understand perfectly well that I can never, ever talk to anyone about the Zodiac things I’ve done, and I never will".



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:13 am

I’m bumping this because of an email Zam sent me. Manalli alludes to the wizard of oz in that last story and here’s some interesting zync as noted by Zam.

Zam wrote.

A while back I posted cover pictures of these 3 books. Darn if I can’t find the thread. I have these books from childhood and they always seemed Z like to me. In Jack Pumkinhead of OZ some of the Zynchronicity are: Swords, Dragons, haha, Oz divided into 4 smaller kingdoms with the Emerald City in the exact center, small door with red writing, turn straight north, good times, red envelope, green tree with knot eyes, Christmas, Boo, Wizard, Slave & more.

The other two books I have are The Giant Horse of OZ & the Lost King. More Zynchronicity…



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:05 am

Its early,I am at work, still half asleep,and have not had my coffee,but correct me if I am wrong, didnt Manalli mentions something about pumkins in one of his letters??? I seem to recall that he did



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:24 pm

He also mentions an early short story of his called "The Philosopher King" which sound like some of the Oz titles. And of course Harry Potter so maybe we should sue J.K. Rowling on his behalf lol.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:57 pm

Glinda of Oz is L. Frank Baum’s fourteenth and last contribution to his series of Oz books before his death.

Glinda of Oz is a rare instance in which Baum’s manuscript of the book still exists. There is one significant divergence between manuscript and printed text. In Baum’s original, Red Reera the Yookoohoo fist appears as a skeleton, its bones wired together like an anatomy model, but with glowing eyes in the sockets of its skull. In the published version, Red Reera first appears as a gray ape in an apron and lace cap — a comic image rather than a frightening one. The change was likely made by Baum at the suggestion of his editors. Other changes in the text, made by an anonymous editor at Reilly & Lee, are relatively trivial, and do not always improve the book.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:29 am

Here’s where Zam posted the Oz book covers –
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t737-possible-tjk-wizard-of-oz-connection
Scroll to the 2nd post for nice pics of 3 books. Thank you, Zam! These zynchronocities from Jack Pumpkinhead noted by Zam are interesting, imo. All I recall about J.P. is that it seemed the most interesting of the Oz books. Also from this thread –
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The Belli letter – the holiday greeting on the back of the envelope reads:
Mery Xmass &
New .Year
Notice that there are two sets of letters that line up. The N is directly under the M, and the Y is directly under the X. This makes two alphabetic sequences: M, N and X, Y. If you look at it this way, the next letters in the sequence just kind of pop out: an O under the N, and a Z under the Y. That makes the two alphabetic sequences M,N,O and X,Y,Z. So that would be OZ on the third line, supposing there were a third line.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To me, the letters OZ just jump out. Really looks like the written letters were aligned that way on purpose. Just in case any of ya’ll want to look at the original card and see what what you think.
Mery Xmass &
New .Year
O……Z



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:06 am

I got Manalli’s military records back. No smoking guns. He was not trained in ciphers or cryptologyor bombs,in fact it states "no formal service schools attended". He IS a sharpshooter! "sharpshooter Badge w rifle bar". No records of any court martials. In 1960, he was with the 814thQM Co(Mechanical & metal repair). No indications of mental pr physical health,which is no surprise since that is classified info,as is whether or not he has prints on file which I hoped there may be,but I dont know for sure.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:10 am

So he was a sharpshooter and mechanic. That’s pretty handy for killing people and fiddling with cars.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:12 am

So he was a sharpshooter and mechanic. That’s pretty handy for killing people and fiddling with cars.

I am sure he could easily "pick off the kiddies"



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:23 am

So he was a sharpshooter and mechanic. That’s pretty handy for killing people and fiddling with cars.

I am sure he could easily "pick off the kiddies"

Hmmm chillingly good point. I was thinking as well that he was creative, I don’t just mean the writing but the buying of old furniture and doing it up. A kind of mind that probably enjoyed thinking of ways to make things better than they are by say….sticking a flashlight on them. I must have a look actually and see if that was an old army trick used on night patrol or anything. Or does anyone know already if it was?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:49 am

Re: The Pumpkin Eater by Harold Pinter

Most of the story is based on two issues: Jo’s predilection for childbearing and Jake’s extramarital affairs. The question of Jo’s fertility is first broached by her psychiatrist. He suggests that she may feel uncomfortable with the messiness or vulgarity of sex, and that she may be using childbirth to justify it to herself. This does not prevent her from becoming pregnant again, but she follows suggestions by Jake and her doctor that she have an abortion and be sterilised, and she seems happy after the operation.

Could be a reason why the pumpkin was placed over the genital area on the skeleton?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:02 am

I found these two statements to be somewhat comparable. The Use of ‘circle’ and ‘spot’ in reference to light.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:15 pm

Interesting observations Trav,I also notice that both Manalli & Z have an odd spacing in the word ‘CIRCLE’,although not in the same spot. I think that Manalli in general has odd spacing in some of his words,and we know that Z does. Perhaps,if they write the same word in both cursive & then print it, the spacing remains but it shifts to a different ppart of the word??? And of course, is that a 3 stroke K in the word ‘DESK’ by Manalli?



Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:27 pm

I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit…but I think that Manalli doesn´t match the Z sketches at all. Also his handwriting, although similar, differs a lot. Manalli is writing with the direction of the letters to the left, Z rather writing to the right. Letters such as l, s etc. don´t match at all, even if Manalli wrote the Th quite closely together. Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?

It is as in the song from Bonaparte, too much: You know James Joyce, I like your voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKolJFvqniQ

QT



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:48 pm

I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit…but I think that Manalli doesn´t match the Z sketches at all. Also his handwriting, although similar, differs a lot. Manalli is writing with the direction of the letters to the left, Z rather writing to the right. Letters such as l, s etc. don´t match at all, even if Manalli wrote the Th quite closely together. Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?

It is as in the song from Bonaparte, too much: You know James Joyce, I like your voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKolJFvqniQ

QT

As far as the slants in writing,stand Zodiac’s straight up and suddenly they look like Manalli’s alot more. Its obvious that Z likely would have tried to disguise his writing. Show me another suspect with the same writing habits & similarities,or one that uses all of the same words,or another POI who ueses the word ‘shall’ as frequently as both Manalli & Zodiac did,or one that talks about killing people,and acts of violence like Manalli,or one that mentions Joyce’s book filled wth the very same misspelled words used by Zodiac,or one that was writing a book called ‘Paradise’ at the same time Z used the term ‘slaves in paradise’, or a suspect that used the phrase "hang by their thumbs" the same way Zodiac did later on. I dont think there is as good a suspect as Manalli at least on paper. I have gone beyond whether people look like the sketch or not. Thats a matter of opinion,of course,you dont think he looks like Z base on photos you are seeing from the 1950’s. None of know how he looked in 1969.

Quicktrader, two things you wrote caught my attention:

"Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?"
My answer is,go back and read this entire thread.

Then you wrote:
"I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit"
Again, go back and read the ENTIRE thread,and see if you have a change of heart.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:01 pm

Morf Wrote:

Its obvious that Z likely would have tried to disguise his writing.

There’s a possibility that he wrote on a un-even surface. Something that might have been corrugated or similar. If this was the case it would account for how and where the spacing occurred in Zodiac’s writing. That plus the slanting would add up to a reasonable distortion compared to normal writing. I actually have another theory but I’m not 100% sold on it but I will, at some point, try to explain it so that everyone can give it a go and see.

Here’s the thread regarding the writing on an uneven surface.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … d-and-more



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:04 pm

Morf Wrote:

Its obvious that Z likely would have tried to disguise his writing.

There’s a possibility that he wrote on a un-even surface. Something that might have been corrugated or similar. If this was the case it would account for how and where the spacing occurred in Zodiac’s writing. That plus the slanting would add up to a reasonable distortion compared to normal writing. I actually have another theory but I’m not 100% sold on it but I will, at some point, try to explain it so that everyone can give it a go and see.

Here’s the thread regarding the writing on an uneven surface.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … d-and-more

I personally think that Z turned his arm,or the paper,in such a way that he was writing almost sideways,thus causing his letters to appear to be slanted so much. I recall that you turned some of Zodiac’s letters straight up like normal,and they looked pretty similar to Manalli’s



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:13 pm

I personally think that Z turned his arm,or the paper,in such a way that he was writing almost sideways,thus causing his letters to appear to be slanted so much. I recall that you turned some of Zodiac’s letters straight up like normal,and they looked pretty similar to Manalli’s

Yes, that’s pretty much what I was thinking. My theory was that for parts of it he may have written up (EDIT: or DOWN)the page whilst it was turned. It involves holding the pen more like an artist would if they were shading rather than holding it as if you were writing.

I tried it and it looked pretty damn good. In fact I found that I could only do it by holding the pen in that certain way. Holding it in a writing position made it practically useless but holding it in a shading position I was able to write and it automatically caused a dramatic slant, especially on things like the lower case d and also made me do things like a rounded lowercase h. Also, on some attempts it caused my baseline to drop towards the end quite dramatically as well.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:00 pm

Seriously. I can’t even look at Manalli’s writing anymore without finding something.

This shows use of language similar to Zodiac. "Please help me" and also "You will notice "(from the letter concerning the pencel (sic) flashlight).

Those are incidental though. The important bit is that ‘s’ on the end of ‘this’ and ‘was’. I think that’s the only instance that Zodiac does that because when I spotted in Manalli’s writing I immediately knew I’d seen it before and that means I must have made a note of it in my head as unique and therefore something to keep an eye out for.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:16 pm

Trav,I gotta give you credit, you keep finding more stuff when I thought we had the bulk of it. These little common ‘quirks’ only add to the similarity. I also loved the little ‘half w’s’ that you had noted between Z & Manalli.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:45 pm

Yes. He’s a veritable treasure trove this guy and I know there’s more to come with the handwriting.

It would be great if we had a solid code/cryptography connection but to be honest I wouldn’t be too surprised if we don’t. I mean it’s a pretty big tell in this whole thing and I would imagine it would be something that the Zodiac would have kept under wraps in everyday life.

As previously stated there’s the joyce/bryce possibility with regards where the idea for using codes might have come from. Manalli himself may have tried to crack those codes. There’s also the history of prison gangs using prison libraries to research and create their own codes so there’s that angle as well. And finally there’s the good old public libraries which we know Manalli frequented. I wonder what the protocol is in pulling someone’s library records after they are dead. Assuming of course that they still exist somewhere.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:50 pm

Yes. He’s a veritable treasure trove this guy and I know there’s more to come with the handwriting.

It would be great if we had a solid code/cryptography connection but to be honest I wouldn’t be too surprised if we don’t. I mean it’s a pretty big tell in this whole thing and I would imagine it would be something that the Zodiac would have kept under wraps in everyday life.

As previously stated there’s the joyce/bryce possibility with regards where the idea for using codes might have come from. Manalli himself may have tried to crack those codes. There’s also the history of prison gangs using prison libraries to research and create their own codes so there’s that angle as well. And finally there’s the good old public libraries which we know Manalli frequented. I wonder what the protocol is in pulling someone’s library records after they are dead. Assuming of course that they still exist somewhere.

Plus by Manalli teaching at San Quenton, he may have learned some crafty tricks,and heard some interesting stories.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:00 pm

Plus by Manalli teaching at San Quenton, he may have learned some crafty tricks,and heard some interesting stories.

Yup that’s what I was thinking.

I mean a lot of the Zodiac stuff, the codes, the bombs I can see it all being smokescreen stuff. The 408 you think, oh this guy is trained in codes but then it turns out to be a relatively simple substitution cipher. Then then monster that is the 340, which many feel was made more complicated as an angry response to the 408 being cracked but anyone who was trained in codes would know that it would be cracked so I don’t necessarily see the 340 as that kind of response. I could see it being more of an attempt to bolster the misdirection of code training and since it has never been cracked I would say he was pretty pleased with himself. Job done. He then doesn’t produce anymore ciphers.



Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:14 pm

Hi,

have read over the forum again and I still doubt stronger connections to especially the typical Z murders…although his handwriting is very close to Z, I rather would put Manalli to the Santa Rosa murders – if his drawing indeed connects him to Kim Wendy Allen.

My reasons for doubting him to be Z:

– Handwriting differs somehow (left/right tendency), some letters match but not all the time – although this is the strongest hint imho
– Manalli doesn´t look like the sketch or even Welsh, 6’3” is a bit too tall, strong eyebrowes/nose have never been mentioned by e.g. Kathleen Johns
– Drawings that were found in connection with Kim Wendy Allen would rather link him to the Sonoma/Eureka/Santa Rosa hitchhiking murders, namely: Marie Antoinette Anstey*, Eva Lucienn Blau, Maureen Sterling + Yvonne Weber*, Jeanette Kamahele, Kim Wendy Allen*, Lori Lee Kursa*, Therese Dian Walsh, Carolyn Nadine Davis*, Nancy D. Feusi, Janet Lee Bowman, Susan Lori Dye, Karen Frances Fisher, Victoria Lynn Schneider, Cheryl Schille Wyant (the ‘*’ means that one or two earrings had been missing from the victim, so there is a connection between these cases somehow)
– Words like ‘shall’ or ‘paradise’ are rather frequent, even ‘hang by thumbs’ could’ve been a common word at that period of time
– Manalli supposedly was ruled out via prints, as mentioned before

I think IF Manalli was a killer, he was mainly responsible for the hitchhikers in the Santa Rosa region, eventually up to Ukiah and Eureka. What I am missing is his connection to various guns, knives, ropes, hood, his slow speech, his cars connected to lover lane murders, Darlene Ferrin connection etc..just my thoughts. I also had Arthur Lee Allen (he had dead animals in his trailer…ugh) suspected for some of the child murders.

QT



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:52 pm

Well I am not going to try and sell Manalli as a suspect,I personally dont care who likes him or not, everybody can think what they want. But I think the similarities speak for themselves. Again,show me any suspect that used the word ‘shall’ as much as Manalli, that wrote a story called PARADISE at the very time Zodiac used that word,that used the term "hang by their thumbs", that mentioned a book filled with the very same misspelled words used by Zodiac,that spoke of violent acts & murder,etc,etc,etc…along with all of the similar writing. I just dont think there IS a suspect that has been presented that you could check off all of these items the way you can with Manalli. And as far as Manalli having been ruled out by police via prints,thats simply NOT TRUE



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:28 pm

My answer is,go back and read this entire thread.

I don’t think that’s entirely fair to tell someone that they need to read 35+ pages to get an answer to a question.

Saying something like, "it’s not just one thing, you need to see everything in comparison to get the whole picture" is basically saying the same thing, but it doesn’t come off as "I don’t feel like explaining it to you."

I know that you have made a couple posts that summarize the main points and that is a common thing in these long threads. It might be more helpful to direct a person to those posts.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:49 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:52 pm

My answer is,go back and read this entire thread.

I don’t think that’s entirely fair to tell someone that they need to read 35+ pages to get an answer to a question.

Saying something like, "it’s not just one thing, you need to see everything in comparison to get the whole picture" is basically saying the same thing, but it doesn’t come off as "I don’t feel like explaining it to you."

I know that you have made a couple posts that summarize the main points and that is a common thing in these long threads. It might be more helpful to direct a person to those posts.

Well said…there ARE a few summaries(tried to add things as they were found). I too do not want to look thru 35 pages of stuff, but suggest that anybody who wants to look into Manalli deeper, should read the 35 pages to see all of it rather than a few summaries. They may find things that they dont agree with, things they were not aware of, things that they find interesting, etc…Sorry, wasnt trying to tell you "I dont feel like explaining it to you"



Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:06 pm

Agreeing, first read then comment. Some coincidences, little facts – thats all I mention. Handwriting & sketches probably not enough, also not possible to rule him out yet.

QT



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:18 pm

Agreeing, first read then comment. Some coincidences, little facts – thats all I mention. Handwriting & sketches probably not enough, also not possible to rule him out yet.

QT

My goal is to look at suspects & POI’s, and rule them out, either by our own means, or thru Law Enforcement. I can tell you this much, Manalli’s prints were not compared against Zodiac’s, and thats a fact.



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:18 am

I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit…but I think that Manalli doesn´t match the Z sketches at all. Also his handwriting, although similar, differs a lot. Manalli is writing with the direction of the letters to the left, Z rather writing to the right. Letters such as l, s etc. don´t match at all, even if Manalli wrote the Th quite closely together. Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?

It is as in the song from Bonaparte, too much: You know James Joyce, I like your voice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKolJFvqniQ

QT

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread but will repeat it since it is directly relevant. Having spoken to several handwriting analysts in the past, the first thing they’ve told me is that the slant of handwriting is not usually taken into account since it is the most obvious and simplest way a person will try to disguise their style. In actual fact it does very little to hide the construction of letters or even spacing. Try it yourself, you will find it is pretty easy to write either slanting forward backwards or if you already do either, to write straight. It is an inclination and has nothing to do with the formation of the characters. Then compare the letters to your normal writing and you will see how similar their construction is.

In fact, this is the most interesting thing about the Manalli investigation by Trav and actually (for me anyway) the change in slant adds to the case rather than detracting from it.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:51 am

I played around with a collection of around 39,000 books to see what kinds of word and phrases matches I could find, similar to what you guys are doing with Manalli’s writings:

http://www.zodiackillerciphers.com/?p=86

I recalled your observations about Zodiac’s frequent use of the word "shall". In the search results I noticed his use of "I wish you a happy Christmas". I don’t know if you’ve noticed this already, but that phrase is more common in British English, just like the word "shall" which Americans rarely use.



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:52 am

I recalled your observations about Zodiac’s frequent use of the word "shall". In the search results I noticed his use of "I wish you a happy Christmas". I don’t know if you’ve noticed this already, but that phrase is more common in British English, just like the word "shall" which Americans rarely use.

And I think that is a good indicator that the perpetrator might have either studied English literature or at least read a lot of it.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:21 am

Lets not forget the phrase "bussy work" which had generally been attributed to something a teacher would say regardless of POI.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:42 am

I recalled your observations about Zodiac’s frequent use of the word "shall". In the search results I noticed his use of "I wish you a happy Christmas". I don’t know if you’ve noticed this already, but that phrase is more common in British English, just like the word "shall" which Americans rarely use.

And I think that is a good indicator that the perpetrator might have either studied English literature or at least read a lot of it.

That’s a good assumption in my opinion. Most americans didnt use the word SHALL, which made some people think Z could be british,but those that heard his voice, clearly would have noticed a british accent,so I think that it is more likely that Z was a big reader of books, english authors,etc



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:37 pm

Or a Pompous Ass….



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:29 pm

I recalled your observations about Zodiac’s frequent use of the word "shall". In the search results I noticed his use of "I wish you a happy Christmas". I don’t know if you’ve noticed this already, but that phrase is more common in British English, just like the word "shall" which Americans rarely use.

And I think that is a good indicator that the perpetrator might have either studied English literature or at least read a lot of it.

That’s a good assumption in my opinion. Most americans didnt use the word SHALL, which made some people think Z could be british,but those that heard his voice, clearly would have noticed a british accent,so I think that it is more likely that Z was a big reader of books, english authors,etc

Just a thought on the whole slow, deliberate and monotone voice.

A few years back I was on holiday on Crete and my mate had the bright idea to check out the BBC World Service on the radio as he’d never heard it before. Neither had I, and as it turned out, with good reason. It was almost ludicrous, at least the bit we hit on when we tuned in,

It seemed to exist for the purpose of teaching pronunciation and clear diction to people learning English. They do it through telling short stories. The story we listened to was set in America and focused on the relationship between a father and son (the father was in a wheelchair I think). The narrator was American, which was fitting given the setting of the story but he spoke soooooo slowly and deliberately and in a monotone. It was weird it was listening in slow motion.

I wonder if they were broadcasting that stuff back in the late 60’s and where.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:22 pm

The BBC began its World Service in 1932!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155441

Manalli was born in 1935. He did not have TV growing up. Radio was the primary source of entertainment in most homes whether it be local radio or shortwave. It is reasonable to think that the types of radio shows you mention Trav were listened to by Manalli.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:49 pm

Lot’s of stuff to address this morning regarding recent posts.

First I would say yes, Manalli was Catholic. He was buried in Calvary Cemetery in Santa Rosa. It is a Catholic cemetery.

http://www.catholiccemeteries-dsr.org/C … _Rosa.html

Coincidentally, the first two SRHM victims, Maureen Sterling and Yvonne Weber are also buried in that same cemetery.

TF, I too made the connection between Manalli’s writing of "tarbox" in his Blalentia Sextet story and the attorney Tarbox. Manalli wrote the word about three or four times so there is no denying that it is the word he meant. If we were to imagine that Manalli is the Zodiac and the story that Robert Tarbox told is true then it would seem to fit quite nicely. The trouble I have with considering that scenario is Manalli tended to think of himself as an intellectual not a worker and I doubt that Manalli would know much about being a merchant marine. Another obstacle would be the merchant marine Z-card that was shown to Tarbox. It could have been a forged or stolen document but Manalli did not strike me as the type to have the street smarts to come up with something like that. He really seemed oblivious to the world around him, as if he did not consider things outside of the world in his own head where he was the next literary genius waiting for recognition.

Trav, the title story in Manalli’s thesis Blakentia Sextet is made up in six parts, I think that is where the Sextet come in to play. I believe the thesis itself is complete and there is no missing sixth story.
Manalli’s letters seem to indicate that he has grandmother issues. The Blakentia Sextet story has a matron type character, Seraphina, who I would guess is fashioned after his grandmother. Seraphina is gunned down by machinegun fire in the story. I thought that part was rather telling. I have not read the entire thesis yet, just the first two stories but it does seem to me that Manalli is writing from the heart, fictionalizing his own life experiences.

Actually, according to Manalli,there is a 6th story that was not published. Here it is from Manalli, and you even get to see another infrequently used word that somehow, both Manalli & Zodiac both use- ‘Saterical’

Zodiac uses the word SATERICAL, Manalli uses the word SATERICAL(they both spell them differently, but we know Z did that on purpose)
Zodiac is fond of the word SHALL, Manalli is fond of the word SHALL
Zodiac uses the term ‘hang by their thumbs’, Manalli uses the term ‘hang by their thumbs’.

You can be critical of Manalli as a Zodiac suspect all you want,but if you are being totally honest & impartial, you have to admit that the words/phrases above were NOT used by most people in the SF bay area around the time of the Zodiac murders, and the fact that both Manalli & Zodiac both use them is impressive. I would bet the house that you could NOT produce proof that ANY OTHER Zodiac suspect or POI used these same words/phrases as Manalli did.

Add to the fact that while Manalli was finishing his story called ‘PARADISE ITS A NICE PLACE’, Zodiac sent a cipher using the term’SLAVES IN PARADISE’. Hard to ignore these things, and it just seems to grow to be more and more interesting. For what its worth, the PARADISE Manalli is writing about is PARADISE,CA (I am fairly certain, but hope Seagull can tell us more about soon….if the word SLAVES or AFTERLIFE appears in that book :affraid: )

This is the only little snipet I can find online for Manalli’s PARADISE book-

FS MANALLI: PARADISE, IT’S A NICE PLACE So then, that bright Sunday morning, we brought Dad to Paradise. Not in a golden barque with heavenly houris hovering, but in our battered VW, Sue and I; for Paradise, California is a town of



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:21 pm

I think that Manalli had intended a sixth story for his thesis but never quite finished working on it. He says in his letter to Curley that the story was not "polished", he didn’t say published. A small point really.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:28 pm

Can’t say for definite but here we have evidence of radio listening and you never know, given that it’s an advert for BOAC which is now British Airwaya, it might have been broadcast on the world service.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:22 am

Lot’s of stuff to address this morning regarding recent posts.

First I would say yes, Manalli was Catholic. He was buried in Calvary Cemetery in Santa Rosa. It is a Catholic cemetery.

http://www.catholiccemeteries-dsr.org/C … _Rosa.html

Coincidentally, the first two SRHM victims, Maureen Sterling and Yvonne Weber are also buried in that same cemetery.

TF, I too made the connection between Manalli’s writing of "tarbox" in his Blalentia Sextet story and the attorney Tarbox. Manalli wrote the word about three or four times so there is no denying that it is the word he meant. If we were to imagine that Manalli is the Zodiac and the story that Robert Tarbox told is true then it would seem to fit quite nicely. The trouble I have with considering that scenario is Manalli tended to think of himself as an intellectual not a worker and I doubt that Manalli would know much about being a merchant marine. Another obstacle would be the merchant marine Z-card that was shown to Tarbox. It could have been a forged or stolen document but Manalli did not strike me as the type to have the street smarts to come up with something like that. He really seemed oblivious to the world around him, as if he did not consider things outside of the world in his own head where he was the next literary genius waiting for recognition.

Trav, the title story in Manalli’s thesis Blakentia Sextet is made up in six parts, I think that is where the Sextet come in to play. I believe the thesis itself is complete and there is no missing sixth story.
Manalli’s letters seem to indicate that he has grandmother issues. The Blakentia Sextet story has a matron type character, Seraphina, who I would guess is fashioned after his grandmother. Seraphina is gunned down by machinegun fire in the story. I thought that part was rather telling. I have not read the entire thesis yet, just the first two stories but it does seem to me that Manalli is writing from the heart, fictionalizing his own life experiences.

Actually, according to Manalli,there is a 6th story that was not published. Here it is from Manalli, and you even get to see another infrequently used word that somehow, both Manalli & Zodiac both use- ‘Saterical’

Zodiac uses the word SATERICAL, Manalli uses the word SATERICAL(they both spell them differently, but we know Z did that on purpose)
Zodiac is fond of the word SHALL, Manalli is fond of the word SHALL
Zodiac uses the term ‘hang by their thumbs’, Manalli uses the term ‘hang by their thumbs’.

You can be critical of Manalli as a Zodiac suspect all you want,but if you are being totally honest & impartial, you have to admit that the words/phrases above were NOT used by most people in the SF bay area around the time of the Zodiac murders, and the fact that both Manalli & Zodiac both use them is impressive. I would bet the house that you could NOT produce proof that ANY OTHER Zodiac suspect or POI used these same words/phrases as Manalli did.

Add to the fact that while Manalli was finishing his story called ‘PARADISE ITS A NICE PLACE’, Zodiac sent a cipher using the term’SLAVES IN PARADISE’. Hard to ignore these things, and it just seems to grow to be more and more interesting. For what its worth, the PARADISE Manalli is writing about is PARADISE,CA (I am fairly certain, but hope Seagull can tell us more about soon….if the word SLAVES or AFTERLIFE appears in that book :affraid: )

This is the only little snipet I can find online for Manalli’s PARADISE book-

FS MANALLI: PARADISE, IT’S A NICE PLACE So then, that bright Sunday morning, we brought Dad to Paradise. Not in a golden barque with heavenly houris hovering, but in our battered VW, Sue and I; for Paradise, California is a town of

This book has more than one story by different authors,so I dont know if all of the results and snippets below are for Manalli’s story
A little more-
http://books.google.com/books?id=364nAQ … q=paradise

and here(mention of guns)-
http://books.google.com/books?id=364nAQAAIAAJ&q=gun

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:46 am

Manalli’s piece begins on p. 29. The next story begins on p. 40.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:56 am

Manalli’s piece begins on p. 29. The next story begins on p. 40.

Okay,so we are looking for 29-39.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:09 am

The word "zodiac" appears 26 times among that collection of stories. Not known if the word appears in Manalli’s, though.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:13 am

The word "zodiac" appears 26 times among that collection of stories. Not known if the word appears in Manalli’s, though.

Hmmm… I got zero matches.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:15 am

Try this link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=364nAQAAIAAJ&q=zodiac

It tells me "26 pages matching zodiac in this book" but doesn’t show them because Google is only authorized to show certain portions of the text.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:22 am

The word "zodiac" appears 26 times among that collection of stories. Not known if the word appears in Manalli’s, though.

Hmmm… I got zero matches.

So did I

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:22 am

Still coming up as no matches… doesn’t mean my computer knows what it’s doing though. I’m the user after all.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:23 am

Now it suddenly tells me zero matches, too. What the hell?

Perhaps the problem is between my ears somewhere.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:58 am

If you do enough searching, you can uncover other pieces of the story. Check this out:

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/sh/34afeeb3-0a80-4a8e-a136-7130a9313376/1c9216874bbf26e45a852136e21676b3

Lots of gun-related verbiage on page 33. Gun sights, shotgun, German model revolver, etc. Then the character Phil tells a story about threatening to shoot a cop if he gives him a hard time, and says "young punk somenabeetch" (that reminded me of thingmebob).

If you keep poking around in the search interface, you can uncover more pages. I don’t have the spare time to pursue the rest at the moment.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:07 pm

If you do enough searching, you can uncover other pieces of the story. Check this out:

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/sh/34afeeb3-0a80-4a8e-a136-7130a9313376/1c9216874bbf26e45a852136e21676b3

Lots of gun-related verbiage on page 33. Gun sights, shotgun, German model revolver, etc. Then the character Phil tells a story about threatening to shoot a cop if he gives him a hard time, and says "young punk somenabeetch" (that reminded me of thingmebob).

If you keep poking around in the search interface, you can uncover more pages. I don’t have the spare time to pursue the rest at the moment.

Wow,that definitely seems like our boy…page 29-39 if we are correct



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:33 pm

Hunter.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:15 pm

Hunter.

And here’s another:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:03 pm

Paradise Ca, 1969.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:11 pm

He refers to a ‘Jewish – Italian homosexual’. A character? Or himself? Was his mother jewish? Any know her maiden name? Do we know if Manilli was gay or straight? I ask because it is very doubtful the Santa Rosa/Sonoma killer was gay.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:54 pm

Manalli’s mother’s maiden name was Murawski. Manalli was married from 1958 until his divorce in 1973. He may have been bisexual, though probably in denial about that for a good number of years. He definitely had issues with women going by his letters to Curley.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:10 pm

Ok thanks. The other issues I have are him being 4 to 5 inches taller than the Mageau/Johns/LB/ SF kids reports and that he looks very Italian darker Latin features. But you guys have shown some interesting literary matches and other things look good. If he was the Sonoma killer than he is indeed astrong Z suspect.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:17 pm

Not sure if he was gay/bi, etc, but he supposedly called himself ‘Freda’ on drawings they found of his



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:37 pm

Ok thats interesting. At mindhunter the poster called suspect zero who claims to have interviewed Allen several times says Allen knew Manalli and that Manalli liked to dress like a woman and was bisexual.



Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:48 pm

Ok thats interesting. At mindhunter the poster called suspect zero who claims to have interviewed Allen several times says Allen knew Manalli and that Manalli liked to dress like a woman and was bisexual.

Yep, I read that too AK. I think the same poster claims that Allen was Z and had an accomplice. I don’t believe he thinks Manalli was the accomplice though?

I wonder how he claims or proves the Allen-Manalli connection?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:03 pm

I am suspect of what Suspect Zero has to say. I’ve read some of his stuff and he claims to have lots of inside knowledge but has never offered a bit of documentation. He has said that he spoke with someone at Santa Rosa PD, too, about the SRHM cases and learned this and that. I do not know why Santa Rosa PD would be involved with the SRHM, it was never their case. Why would they have any special knowledge?

Allen was living in the county when he was arrested for the child molestation in Santa Rosa. The "police" report on that arrest posted at Tom’s site was written up by the Sheriff’s department not the PD. The location where the trailer park was located was in the county then but has been annexed into the city of Santa Rosa now.

Again, show me proof that Allen and Manalli knew eachother and that Allen went to SRJC. Suspect Zero has never been able provide proof no matter how many times he has been asked. I think he read Graysmith and concocted the rest of the story.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:33 pm

Right. Allen may have mentioned something about Manlli. But I agree with you we need proof.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:13 am

I couldn’t recover the entire story but I got some big chunks of it:

Note: "Conscientously" is a misspelling

Transcription:

FS Manalli lives in Santa Rosa, California. He has published stories, poems, and reviews in Literary Review, MSS, and Outlet. This is his first appearance in Perspective.

Page 29:

FS MANALLI:

PARADISE, IT’S A NICE PLACE

So then, that bright Sunday morning, we brought Dad to Paradise. Not in a golden barque with heavenly houris hovering, but in our battered VW, Sue and I; for Paradise, California is a town of modest size a hard four hours’ drive from here— to the north and east, in the upper Sacramento Valley.

Dad had come to visit us a few days, escaping the Midwest winter and other unhappy climates back there. The old country sense of clan unity has by now in us diminished to almost nothing; but if he could afford to leave his sales work (now, at age fifty-six) he would spend almost all his time wandering the face of America like an unsatisfied spirit, dropping in on people to "Say hello"— and not much else; with what time remained, he’d tend his yard and cultivate his young trees. Living in Paradise is his cousin Annie with her husband Phil. Dad had not seen Annie these twenty-nine years; Sue and I had never seen her, or her husband. Then why bring Dad to them, when we could as well have put him on a bus or a plane, then used that Sunday to rest and regain ourselves, our solitude? Because our solitude and our selves aren’t always enough: time uses itself up, and the matter surrounding us wears out, falls apart, expends its energy and decays. Look at a picture of yourself taken years ago: smiling— you must have been burdened then, too, but who can remember with what? Yet you’re sure youll remember today’s burdens years from now. To ransom at least a part of the past at a present cost of a few hours’ conversation doesn’t seem, on a sunny late winter Sunday in busy California, too stiff a price to pay. Does it? Besides, none of us have ever been to Paradise. Or if we have, we’ve forgotten that too. So we’re curious. The town is built on a ridge that rises suddenly from that surrounding flat; the ridge keeps rising, curving eastward, and ultimately joins the Sierra Nevada many miles away. Here, in Paradise, the elevation is only about two thousand feet— just enough to make you properly dizzy from the thinness of air, the brightness of light, and the heavy scent of pine and eucalyptus carried on an unremitting breeze. Paradise is rarefied enough. [SECTION POSSIBLY MISSING]

Page 30:

We find the house easily— almost at the end of a quiet lane in one of the oldest and highest parts of town. White frame, two story, set well back on a wooded lot of an acre or so, a drive that enters and exits again on the lane after curving in broad semi-circle in front of the garage and the stairway landing; this driveway is paved with crushed stone, pale red. Parked at one side is a Ford sedan, about seven years old but appearing in excellent condition; and an old green pick-up, with a small camper mounted on its bed. We parked behind, out of the way, and then here comes Annie rushing out to greet us. She is a tall woman, fiftyish, of good build; and apparent good health— loud and effusive, as though terribly relieved we’ve survived our long journey, she runs to Dad. They clasp, hug, kiss. Hug and kiss and gush somemore; their greeting is passionate and lengthy enough to make the rest of us restless. Phil has followed— more slowly; stately in a wiry little man’s way (he is not quite as tall as Annie, who is almost as tall as my father and probably outweighs him a bit). Phil looks pugnacious in a pale and fallen-crested way. Both of them have dressed for the occasion: Annie in heels and hose, green jersey dress, girdle, jewelry; Phil in sportcoat, red plaid shirt with string tie, flannel trousers with pleats and a set of creases like the edges of a sword, two-tone shoes. The three of us watch, restlessly, the greeting of the other two; waiting for introductions. Then Annie spirits Sue up the stairs, through the kitchen door and the heavy rich smells of cooking— lots of tomatoes and other fresh vegetables, pasta, many spices, maybe a bird basting in there somewhere— while Phil conducts Dad and me through his garage, his basement workroom, and the guestroom. The latter is spotless and has the feel of not having been used for a long time. Dolls and party favors, an old photograph on the mirror of somebody’s grandmother beside a crucifix and a tiny card with a picture of fair-haired little Jesus— all suggest that the room’s last occupant was a child. I have never seen so many partially torn-down old radios, so many empty mason jars, cans of odd nails and screws, or so many bits of wire and rope and metal as fill the workroom.

Then Phil insists we see the downstairs lavatory. He presents it to us with a sweeping gesture after throwing open the door, then watches as we peek inside. Watching silent, head thrown back with pride. It’s among the cleanest lavatories we’ve seen; what else is there to say? Then Dad wants to peek inside the camper as well; not so tidy there. "I don’t use it so much anymore," says Phil. Hunting, fishing, long trips? "Oh, I used to. No more, though, not for me no more. Too hard." Pride goes before his fall. Phil is about my father’s age, maybe a couple years more; both men are trim, with healthy heads of slick black hair, though perhaps as Dad would say, touching his with a finger, "a little bit high on the forehead." But Dad has never been an outdoorsman; I never fired a gun until the army taught me— and gave me my fill of firearms, everything from thirty caliber to ninety millimeter. Still, though Dad has no taste for hunting and fishing, here is a matter of age —his own and his host’s (husband of bis cousin)— as well as pride, maybe even vanity. No more fishing and hunting and camping? Too hard? *My heart," Phil answers. Then, the quiet cocky pride returning: "Five heart attacks." Waves an open hand at us, fingers extended. "Five!" And he has survived. Dad commiserates; I congratulate. Phil jams hands in pockets and struts ahead of us into the garage. "But I don’t run around in the woods no more. Nosir. Uh-uh, not me." We stand in the damp garage; we’ve seen everything down here, why don’t we go upstairs? There, above our heads— clump clump- Sue is receiving the tour. We continue standing, talking: there is some good scenery Phil will show us: Feather River Dam, Mt. Lassen. "Beautiful around here, beautiful." I tell him for the second time that Sue and I must return this evening, but again he disregards the information. When we finally mount the stairs, we find that the house proper is all hysteria and heavy heated cooking smells. Annie is mainly responsible. Seeing Dad, she greets him again, holding him powerless and lifting him momentarily off his feet this time. She remembers me too. She saw me when I was a baby. "You’ve hardly changed, I knew it was you right away," she tells me. The heat and the hysteria mount. Annie scurries between kitchen and living room, working up a sweat, then finally throws open a dining room window, but the heating system pumps harder, and the heat of that house overpowers all the air of the outside. Phil gives us drinks— bourbon and lots of water— pours himself a straight one and gulps it down, ducks out of the room and returns with

[NOTE: The break to page 31 occurred somewhere above, but I couldn’t find where]

Page 32:

a refill before any of us realize he has been gone. Annie, wanting to hear about the other relatives, called Dad to the kitchen. Phil turns on one of his radios— gets the Sunday afternoon rock and roll from a Chico station— then leaves Sue and me to glance around the tiny living room which, other than the couch against one wall (facing the portable TV) is not meant for sitting: more like a picture gallery of relatives, children, babies, one wedding scene of Phil and Annie —she was gawky and toothy then, he was tough and grinning, eyes of a young bull— and one four-color scene of lakes and meadows, suitable for hanging (preferably above a bar and in a frame of colored lights). Standing on the floor, among all the dainty harem pillows, is a two-foot kewpie doll. Sue shares the easy chair with a huge teddy bear— but actually it’s Smokey, complete with yellow ranger’s hat. The shadow box above her head, containing a few figurines and smaller portraits, has the face of a clock built in one section of it. The clock has no numbers, having instead twelve tiny inlaid rectangles to represent the hours. And the clock has no hands either; the axle from which they once turned protrudes at the center of the face like the nose of a wooden doll. Annie shouts from the kitchen: "Hey you guys, your Dad says you can’t stay over. By the time this sentence is finished, she’s there with apron on in the door, arms akimbo, politely petulant and mock-demanding; we rattle off the usual the usual Monday-morn commitments and, with great air of regret, Annie retreats to her kitchen again, promising dinner within the hour. Phil returns then, taking her place in the doorway, calling after her: "See? I told you they have to go back tonight." Then he reassures my father that he can stay as long as he likes; they will drive him back to us when the time comes. Dad protests a little: he doesn’t want to be any trouble— "No no no, don’t you worry about a thing!" shouts Phil. "You stay here with us and visit as long as you want, we bring you back. Don’t you worry. No no no no no." To support his argument, Phil’s arms were burdened with the bourbon bottle and a load of firearms he has brought from his closet. He’s the only one who needs a refill— his icecubes haven’t even begun melting yet— then he sets the bottle down (it’s almost empty) on the floor next to the couch, and hands me the largest of his guns: an old rifle with hand-carved stock and telescopic sight. Conscientously, I hold it pointed at the floor and try, unsuccessfully, to open the breech. "Careful, it’s loaded," Phil says as Sue gives a little shriek. I hand the rifle back to him quickly, he clears the chamber, then hands it back. It’s a

Page 33:

fine gun, so heavy Sue can’t hold it. I draw a bead on one of the holes in the salt shaker on the dining table, then focus the sight on a cherry bud showing in the window beyond. Sue is examining his ten-gauge shotgun; it too is old, with carved stock and embossed blue steel. "It’s so heavy," she says. "I’ve only held a twenty-two." Phil gets up, handing me his revolver, a German model, and then he goes to his closet again. I can see the pistol is loaded, so I hold it down again and, fingers away from the trigger, fiddle with it, but it’s tricky: the six cartridges go clattering on the carpet. We have them picked up when Phil returns with another rifle and hands it to Sue. Presto— you want a twenty-two, here it is. Another fine old piece, tightly made and handling slick and easy. But it’s loaded too: I take out the single for Sue. The three of us are hemmed in now with firearms and live ammunition— but at least it’s loose. I start smoking, Phil does too, and the room gets even more uncomfortable. He drains his bottle in his own glass and mine. "What’s amatter, you don’t like to drink much?" I ask him why he keeps all his firearms loaded, even the shotgun. "Well, you never know," he answers. Then, as Annie and my father return to the room, Phil launches a story: "One time, it was right before we were married, I was driving back one night in that old Studebaker I used to have, a big seven-pointer tied on my hood, I was drunk as a skunk and couldn’t even see the road, just outside town so it didn’t matter I wasn’t hurting anybody, and this cop stops me right there, young punk somenabeetch, and he says—" Phil’s face distorting as he puts a snarl in his voice to imitate the cop "—he says, ‘Awright buddy what the hell you think you doing anyway I gone have to give you a ticket.’ And I tell him" shouting now his legendary retort, Phil’s face redder than his shirt "I tell him, ‘Look you, I been up in the mountains a long time getting meat for my family, it’s depression times and what the hell you think, I got money to pay a ticket? Look you,’ and I point to him my gun in the back seat, ‘Look you,’ I tell that punk kid, I got one more slug in there and whatta you think I’m gonna do with it if you try and give me a hard time? Huh? What you think?’ And he step back and I think maybe reach for his gun, but no. ‘Awright,’ he tells me, ‘on your way.’" We talk a little while then about cops and the way they give tickets. Phil tells another long story, shouting at times, about another time he bluffed the arresting officer by challenging him to prove Phil was actually speeding. [SECTION MISSING]

[UNKNOWN PAGE]

to drink, and that dinner will be ready soon. Phil gets up, demanding Sue and I accompany him; he wants to show us around a bit before dinner. But first, returning with his coat, he has something else for us to see: he hands me a small bottle, full of reddish fluid. "Here’s what I drink. I wouldn’t give it to you, though." I am holding a bottle of Watkins liniment. "You don’t drink this," I tell him. "I do, I do." "You’re supposed to rub it. Outside, not inside." "I drink it. It kept me alive when I had my heart attacks."
I read the label. Forty-five percent alcohol. "Man, this is ninety proof." I can’t help laughing.
"I drink it. I really do. Little bit" — he holds his thumb and forefinger two inches apart — "in the morning, it kept me going through the day then." But is it the cause or effect of the heart condition? I open the cap, but am unable to bring the open bottle top any closer to my nose than several inches. "It’s pretty strong stuff." "All good medicine is strong. It’s good for you," he says. I hand the bottle back to him, and I question how anyone could take the stuff straight. "Oh," he answers, "I cut it with a little bit water. Not much." His thumb and forefinger come up again, now almost touching each other. "But my friend—" turning to my father "—you know Charley Skiro— " Dad shrugs. "Charley Skiro was the one who told me about it, how healthful it is, he drinks it straight. Charley is healthy like a bull." Annie rushes in again— she has changed into slacks and blouse now— to remind Phil about the imminence of dinner and the crucial lack of anything to drink in the house.

[SECTION MISSING]

We drive to a nearby shopping center, and he and I go into the liquor store where he is well known. Phil introduces me to the salesman as a nephew; the man looks me up and down: am I as big a drinking man as Uncle Phil? Do I like it in Paradise? It’s a nice place. Phil takes two fifths, I buy a jug of white wine for the dinner. Then we return to the car, Phil quietly mentioning to Sue and me that his liquor bill comes to around two hundred a month— it’s a fact, ask anybody

[SECTION MISSING]



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:23 am

Doranchak,thanks for posting. Hmm,weird story, all over the place. The part thats missing is where he threatens cop and talks about shooting them,etc. Pretty interesting,the way he just goes into a piece about guns, shooting,mentions a "german model"…(luger perhaps?)



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:37 am

Thanks for that Dave.

I was looking at it through blurry eyes and without zooming in and I focused right away on this bit.

I can see the pistol is loaded, so I hold it down again and, fingers away from the trigger, fiddle with it, but it’s tricky

There the obvious allusions as well with trigger and it’s tricky (triger mech requires much work. it’s so massive to dig in etc) but I though it was interesting to see the word "fiddle" used as well. Maybe somewhere he’ll say "fart around" but probably not.

she has changed into slacks

"Girl was wearing patterned slacks"

"But I don’t run around in the woods no more. Nosir. Uh-uh, not me." We stand in the damp garage; we’ve seen everything down here, why don’t we go upstairs? There, above our heads— clump clump- Sue is receiving the tour.

"…by the rains we had a while back"?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:44 am

Great observations. Maybe we can get the missing pieces of this story. More things that Z had in common with Manalli, they call pants slacks,and they use the word fiddle. Again, one or two things is a coincidence. Dozens of things is a pattern. There IS a pattern here between Manalli & Zodiac.

Manalli shows us he IS familiar with firearms,and if this man they were visiting in Paradise is a real person, he could have had access to this man’s firearms.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:54 am

Manalli’s mother’s maiden name was Murawski. Manalli was married from 1958 until his divorce in 1973. He may have been bisexual, though probably in denial about that for a good number of years. He definitely had issues with women going by his letters to Curley.

Seagull, what is your opinion regarding the two separate years there is a divorce listed for Manalli,and in two different counties? Could they have started aa divorce in 1970,and then tried to work things out,before they finally got divorced for good in 1973? Of course,we can only speculate,but if they were going to get a divorce in 1970,we have to assume things could have been going bad in 1969 when Z was working fast & furious. What issues came up that made them start a divorce after 12 years together? Nobody knows,but the timing seems of interest.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:57 am

while Phil conducts Dad and me through his garage, his basement workroom, and the guestroom

Or it’s all fiction but either way Manalli is getting his inspiration for the details from somewhere and as we’ve seen, he more often than not draws that from himself.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:04 am

while Phil conducts Dad and me through his garage, his basement workroom, and the guestroom

Or it’s all fiction but either way Manalli is getting his inspiration for the details from somewhere and as we’ve seen, he more often than not draws that from himself.

Good point, and this story that he wrote was being published in 1969. Was Zodiac using Manalli’s writing for inspiration? If so, who would have access to Manalli’s writing? Seems like the more likely answer would be that Manall could have been Zodiac.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:11 am

On page 30 I noticed that there is an old green pick up with a camper on it. I believe that is the description of the vehicle Jeannette Kamahele was seen getting into at the spot where she was last seen.

Thanks Doranchak for getting most of this story!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:12 am

Not in a golden barque with heavenly houris hovering

Muslim men who die as martyrs (fighting in battle or other deaths) are promised 72 (or sometimes 73) beautiful, black-eyed perpetual virgins as wives in heaven. – And they have their regular wives on earth still tagging along too. This short page is simply a brief description of what the hadiths say about these heavenly virgins, called "houris".

Slaves in Paradice?

http://www.muslimhope.com/HourisHeavenl … nIslam.htm

EDITS: some phrases / statements.

‘The first group of people who will enter Paradise, … Their wives will be houris.

‘The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:30 am

On page 30 I noticed that there is an old green pick up with a camper on it. I believe that is the description of the vehicle Jeannette Kamahele was seen getting into at the spot where she was last seen.

Thanks Doranchak for getting most of this story!

Wow,are you serious??? :shock:



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:34 am

On page 30 I noticed that there is an old green pick up with a camper on it. I believe that is the description of the vehicle Jeannette Kamahele was seen getting into at the spot where she was last seen.

Thanks Doranchak for getting most of this story!

Wow,are you serious??? :shock:

"Jeannette Kamahele, 20, wearing a brown sweater, blue jeans and sandals, was standing on a Highway 101 on-ramp in Cotati on April 25, 1972 when a friend saw her get into a 1950s pickup fitted with a homemade wooden camper. A white man in his 20s or 30s was behind the wheel, according to newspaper archives.
Her friend called authorities after he learned that she never arrived at the Santa Rosa Junior College that day. No trace of Kamahele has been found."

I read elsewhere that the truck was faded brown.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:00 am

Sorry if this info has been posted but what high school and college did he go to again?

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:20 am

Here’s another description…

"A friend saw her climb into a 1950-52 faded brown Chevy pickup with a wooden, homemade camper in back. The friend later told police the driver was white, 20-30 years old, with light brown hair in an afro style."

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:46 am

I generated a list of words from all the letters in the Zodiac corpus (http://zodiac-killer-ciphers.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/letters/). I compared them to the partial Manalli’s Paradise story. Here’s a list of the words in common between the Zodiac letters and Manalli’s story:

Words are shown in descending order of length. Words of the same length are shown in descending order of frequency of appearance in Manalli’s "Paradise" story (the number indicates how many times the word appears in "Paradise"):

california, 3
everything, 2

beautiful, 2
wandering, 1
something, 1
published, 1
afternoon, 1

properly, 1
followed, 1
finished, 1
children, 1
battered, 1
basement, 1

another, 4
through, 3
morning, 2
holding, 2
waiting, 1
unhappy, 1
suggest, 1
station, 1
sitting, 1
quietly, 1
instead, 1
himself, 1
getting, 1
evening, 1
dressed, 1
country, 1
because, 1

little, 8
though, 5
around, 5
enough, 4
before, 4
matter, 3
inside, 3
window, 2
parked, 2
inches, 2
having, 2
center, 2
system, 1
string, 1
slowly, 1
slacks, 1
sierra, 1
selves, 1
seeing, 1
really, 1
people, 1
mirror, 1
friend, 1
fiddle, 1
either, 1
couple, 1
circle, 1
called, 1
behind, 1
anyway, 1
anyone, 1
always, 1

there, 9
about, 9
again, 8
other, 6
hands, 6
years, 5
think, 5
never, 5
maybe, 4
young, 3
right, 3
place, 3
floor, 3
could, 3
clock, 3
after, 3
would, 2
while, 2
which, 2
water, 2
times, 2
small, 2
sight, 2
shirt, 2
seven, 2
heads, 2
gives, 2
first, 2
apart, 2
youll, 1
where, 1
watch, 1
until, 1
trees, 1
thing, 1
these, 1
their, 1
taste, 1
store, 1
start, 1
shoes, 1
ready, 1
reach, 1
quite, 1
prove, 1
proof, 1
price, 1
piece, 1
parts, 1
north, 1
night, 1
needs, 1
nails, 1
money, 1
loose, 1
light, 1
leave, 1
holes, 1
great, 1
going, 1
front, 1
fired, 1
dress, 1
doing, 1
black, 1
alive, 1

with, 28
then, 23
that, 15
time, 12
back, 12
have, 10
from, 10
more, 9
here, 9
what, 8
this, 8
long, 7
like, 7
when, 6
well, 6
open, 6
down, 6
been, 6
they, 5
tell, 5
seen, 5
good, 5
face, 5
even, 5
used, 4
town, 4
much, 4
look, 4
hard, 4
hand, 4
give, 4
will, 3
want, 3
them, 3
than, 3
only, 3
into, 3
hold, 3
else, 3
door, 3
away, 3
your, 2
were, 2
told, 2
take, 2
show, 2
rest, 2
peek, 2
nice, 2
must, 2
make, 2
know, 2
just, 2
hell, 2
heat, 2
head, 2
goes, 2
find, 2
feet, 2
easy, 2
come, 2
work, 1
wire, 1
wall, 1
tone, 1
talk, 1
some, 1
side, 1
seat, 1
salt, 1
rope, 1
road, 1
read, 1
pine, 1
pick, 1
part, 1
over, 1
once, 1
none, 1
nine, 1
next, 1
mine, 1
made, 1
last, 1
lack, 1
hose, 1
high, 1
help, 1
gave, 1
full, 1
feel, 1
fall, 1
fact, 1
ever, 1
each, 1
draw, 1
cops, 1
blue, 1
baby, 1
army, 1

the, 134
and, 104
his, 32
you, 31
but, 17
him, 16
for, 15
one, 14
has, 14
not, 11
was, 10
two, 10
she, 10
too, 9
old, 9
now, 7
her, 7
all, 7
can, 6
way, 5
see, 5
out, 5
who, 4
man, 4
had, 4
gun, 4
why, 3
say, 3
few, 3
any, 3
air, 3
yet, 2
try, 2
set, 2
red, 2
pay, 2
own, 2
off, 2
its, 2
how, 2
got, 2
cop, 2
big, 2
ask, 2
are, 2
use, 1
top, 1
tie, 1
ten, 1
saw, 1
run, 1
rub, 1
put, 1
men, 1
lot, 1
hey, 1
end, 1
day, 1
cut, 1
car, 1
bus, 1

of, 61
to, 58
it, 44
in, 40
he, 37
is, 33
we, 24
as, 23
me, 21
on, 20
no, 16
my, 13
so, 12
at, 11
up, 10
an, 8
or, 6
do, 5
go, 4
re, 3
if, 3
by, 3
am, 3
oh, 2
be, 2
mt, 1

a, 84
i, 57



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:48 pm

I wonder who gave the description of the pick up. My son is color blind and mistakes green for brown and visa-versa regularly. Because of that I never assume that a person is correct when it comes to color.

I know that Manalli went to the University of Illinois Champlain-Urbana campus for his BA degree and San Francisco State College for his masters.. Morf got the high school pix so he would know which high school.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:50 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:46 pm

I wonder who gave the description of the pick up. My son is color blind and mistakes green for brown and visa-versa regularly. Because of that I never assume that a person is correct when it comes to color.

I know that Manalli went to the University of Illinois Champlain-Urbana campus for his BA degree and San Francisco State College for his masters.. Morf got the high school pix so he would know which high school.

He went to Rockford West Hs



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:53 pm

RWHS attempt to re-create the HC symbol. :lol:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:08 pm

I see there is a SAM MAGGIO listed in the 53, 54 year books for RWHS.

Wonder if he was anything to so with the name S.A. Maggio or S.A.M in the "strategic Withdrawal" short story.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:39 pm

No doubt about the Sam Maggio! Manalli used his wife’s name in the Paradise story. I would not be the least bit surprised if Annie and Phil were real people, too. There was an Anna Manalli at ancestry.com and I believe she was born in 1913, Manalli’s father was born in 1910, the right ages to be cousins.

Okay Morf find Sam Maggio!



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:52 pm

No doubt about the Sam Maggio! Manalli used his wife’s name in the Paradise story. I would not be the least bit surprised if Annie and Phil were real people, too. There was an Anna Manalli at ancestry.com and I believe she was born in 1913, Manalli’s father was born in 1910, the right ages to be cousins.

Okay Morf find Sam Maggio!

LOL. Okay, I found him. Now what? :D



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:46 pm

LOL, good job! If he and Manalli were friends in school he might be able to give us some insight. I’m not sure when that Paradise story was written but perhaps Sam and Fred were still friends when it was published in 1969. We seem to be having problems finding out much about him from people who knew him, particularly around the time of any murders.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:52 pm

:roll: Detecting at its finest.

Dice, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:07 am

Here’s another description…

"A friend saw her climb into a 1950-52 faded brown Chevy pickup with a wooden, homemade camper in back. The friend later told police the driver was white, 20-30 years old, with light brown hair in an afro style."

Would a wooden, homemade camper essentially be a windowless, wooden box?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:21 am

Found this misc. Newspaper article about Manalli giving a lecture-
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 … 875,344343

They spelled his name wrong,spelled it MANALI. The paper is the Geyersville Press. Where is Geyersville in relation to the bay area?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:29 am

Geyserville is in Sonoma County on Hwy 101 about 20 miles north of Santa Rosa.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:30 am

Geyserville is in Sonoma County on Hwy 101 about 20 miles north of Santa Rosa.

Okay thanks. By the way, I think I found the right ‘Sam’ that knew Manalli,and I sent him a message. Hope he responds. Any questions I should ask?



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:42 pm

I see there is a SAM MAGGIO listed in the 53, 54 year books for RWHS.

Wonder if he was anything to so with the name S.A. Maggio or S.A.M in the "strategic Withdrawal" short story.

I have NO evidence whatsoever that this man, Sam Anthony Maggio, is indentical with the " S.A. Maggio or S.A.M in the "strategic Withdrawal" short story."

But due to that he was located in Riverside, CA, I thought I would post the info.
He died 52 years old.
I have not been able to find any info on how he died:

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Sam Anthony Maggio
Name: Sam Anthony Maggio
Social Security #: 556349712
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 4 Aug 1932
Birthplace: California
Death Date: 10 Sep 1984
Death Place: Riverside
Mother’s Maiden Name: Marguglio

U.S. Veterans Gravesites, ca.1775-2006
about Samuel Anthony Maggio
Name: Samuel Anthony Maggio
Service Info.: SK2 US NAVY KOREA
Birth Date: 4 Aug 1932
Death Date: 10 Sep 1984
Service Start Date: 13 Mar 1951
Interment Date: 13 Sep 1984
Cemetery: Riverside National Cemetery
Cemetery Address: 22495 Van Buren Boulevard Riverside, CA 92518
Buried At: Section 12a Site 847

Was Fred Manalli in Korea?



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:44 pm

Geyserville is in Sonoma County on Hwy 101 about 20 miles north of Santa Rosa.

Okay thanks. By the way, I think I found the right ‘Sam’ that knew Manalli,and I sent him a message. Hope he responds. Any questions I should ask?

Morf, since "your" Sam Maggio apparently is alive, could you share which Sam Maggio that is?
PM?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:20 pm

Geyserville is in Sonoma County on Hwy 101 about 20 miles north of Santa Rosa.

Okay thanks. By the way, I think I found the right ‘Sam’ that knew Manalli,and I sent him a message. Hope he responds. Any questions I should ask?

Morf, since "your" Sam Maggio apparently is alive, could you share which Sam Maggio that is?
PM?

Sure,check your PM



trainmaster, Subject: THE ACCIDENT SCENE Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:29 pm

"According to Manalli’s death certificate the accident was on Hwy 12, 2,745 feet East of Merced Ave. "

I finally took some Google snapshots looking East and West, the east shots taking into account the 2,745 feet. I am surprised that area of road is still two lane highway and not freeway. It appears today much the same as it did that fateful night in 1976.

First the photo looking west, taken from approximately 2,745 feet from Merced Avenue on Highway 12. The Red "A" indicates Merced crossing Highway 12.

Another try at the same scene looking TOWARDS Northeast going to Santa Rosa

SUCCESS – finally. First photo shows the scene looking TOWARDS Sebastopol and the second photo shows the scene going TOWARDS Santa Rosa. I don’t know what way Manalli was going, but the surrounding area has not fallen to deveopment, yet, and HIghway 12 is still a 2-Lane road.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:02 pm

The death certificate states:

Victim was driving Eastbound on Highway, drifted into Westbound lane & collided headon with another vehicle

So he was headed towards Santa Rosa from Sebastopol. Graysmith has him going across a center divide (pgs. 174-176 ZU) which I do not believe was the case. The way the death certificate is worded it sounds like Manalli went directly into the westbound lane. The highway does have a center divide closer to Santa Rosa.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:20 pm

So, it was the SECOND photo which has the correct direction. What is unknown is if the center lane had the solid yellow stripe on 1976 or if it was broken, allowing cars to pass. It is also possible the highway could have been enlarged to allow for bigger curbs.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:39 pm

I think "hitch" refers to his time in the Army that was required. He signed on as a reserve but was called to active duty after he completed his BA degree. Because he was a reservist he was required to serve two years active duty and four years of reserve duty. If he had "hitched up" with the Army for two more years active duty he would have fullfillied his requirement for serving his country. It’s probably a idiom that only American’s use when referring to their service time.

It just popped into my head what the British equivalent of that is – "stomach another stint"



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:52 am

The FRED thread has been quiet the last few days. I am on a little mini Z vacation,so i havent been on as much. Plus,its hard to keep digging up stuff on him. I am awaiting one of his stories, and I know seagull was trying to get something. Hope we find some more.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:35 pm

A rest is good. I’ve been doing the same. Seems like a natural time for it.

I think it’s also good in respect a POI like this. We’ve had an awful lot of stuff to look at with this one in a relatively short period of time so it’s good to let all that info settle.

It’s also helpful for going over stuff so that you’re not stuck in that looking for stuff mode.

To digress slightly.

This is a Very Interesting POI – a VPOI.

I guess you could also have QPOI for quite interesting IPOI for interesting, and then just plain ole’ POI.

VPOI
QPOI
IPOI
POI.

lol, maybe just P then if they aren’t interesting or, depending on how confrontational you are feeling you could have YHAL. I’ll let you figure that one out. :D

I was gonna go with POI – very etc but the acronym wasn’t working for me POIV it’s looks too much like the pronunciation for PERVE if you’re from Nu Joisy.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:27 pm

I guess it wouldn’t hurt to post Manalli’s death certificate, it is a public record.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:45 pm

Thanks for that Deb.

Do you know if, the bit under the coroner’s section where it says "INVESTIGATION", indicates that an investigation was carried out as to the nature of the accident and death or that one was recommended? I can’t quite read the small print on that section.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:05 pm

The small print in section 21A says-

CORONER: I hereby certify that death occured at the hour date and place stated above from the causes stated below and that I have held on the remains of deceased as required by law A?

It’s tough to read even with a magnifing glass!

If you want to know what is written in any other sections just let me know.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:22 pm

So does that mean that they kept ‘bits’ to further investigate?

The Coroner signed off on this on 9/13/76 after the burial on 8/28/76. Does that mean that whatever they were looking at concluded around 9/13/76?

I wonder what they decided? I’m slightly confused though. Is the burial allowed to go ahead if there’s a coroner investigation? I know that when my Mum died we had to wait for the coroners investigation to concluded before we could bury her in case the coroner discovered something and ruled that an inquest should be held.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:52 pm

They probably did keep "bits", tissue and fluids most likely. Perhaps the reason the coroner signed off after the burial is they were waiting for the toxicology report to come back. Looking for drugs or alcohol probably.

Nachtsider might be able to help with this, I’ll PM him.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:05 pm

Got it covered, Seagull. ;)

The coroner normally only withholds the body if the cause of death is suspicious and warrants an autopsy. In Manalli’s case, he died in a straightforward motor accident; all that would be required to determine drug and alcohol levels in his blood would be body fluids, which can be easily withdrawn from a corpse and do not necessitate an autopsy or withholding from burial.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:01 am

Yup, I dunno about back then but now it’s pretty standard to do a tox screen on an auto-fatality, especially if someone else was involved, and that can take awhile (like two weeks or more) so the final version of the DC will be after the burial.



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:26 am

So did he fall asleep or commit suicide?
By the way only about 2% of the male population is 6"3" or taller.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:53 am

So did he fall asleep or commit suicide?
By the way only about 2% of the male population is 6"3" or taller.

If you have a copy of Zodiac Unmasked, you can read about the accident on pages 186 and 187 (and more about this guy on pages 188 and 260-261. ) Fred was driving a 1965 VW van and hit a 1972 Toyota. The model of the Toyota is not mentioned, but even if it were a truck it wouldn’t be the best vehicle to hit to insure death. A Mack truck would be a better target. On the other hand, a Mack truck would not be a good idea if you didn’t want your death to look like a suicide. So maybe suicide, but doesn’t seem likely. Especially since he didn’t die right away, but at 1:25 the next morning while on the operating table at the hospital. The crash occurred about 8:30, when he’d been driving for about half an hour. So possibly he fell asleep. An observer saw Fred’s headlights go out right before the crash, and there were only two feet of light skid marks, indicating he hadn’t tried to brake. Another possibility is that he had a seizure. His wife reported that he’d been having seizures controlled by medication. This is according to ZU.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:09 pm

Thanks for your post, Jem. The page numbers you’ve given are for the hardcover edition of ZU. In the 2007 paperback the pages are 174-176 and page 243.

On the first page under the heading "Thursday, August 24, 1976", in either edition discussing Manalli, Graysmith states that Manalli had gone to the German Car Center east of Merced for repairs to his van. I am trying to nail down this information because I think it might be a little misleading.

There is a town named Merced which is in the general area of where Kathleen Johns was kidnapped. It really doesn’t make any sense to me that Manalli would drive all the way to the town of Merced for car repairs. What I think is more likely is the car repair shop was located in Santa Rosa near Merced Avenue, the nearest cross street to where Manalli’s Highway 12 accident occured.

I don’t know if Graysmith was trying to loosely associate Manalli with being familar with the area where the Johns incident took place or what.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:00 pm

Merced is at least 1/2 hour west of Highway 132, which is approximately Modesto. From Santa Rosa to Merced, the drive would take about three hours-
1 hour to Concord area, two to Merced. The long way would be to take 680 to the Altmont Pass and go that way via Pleasanton and Livermore.

Why anyone would drive that far to have an old VW van replaced is a good riddle. Remember, VW vans had no protection, for the driver or front passenger, as the motor was, I believe, in the back. Most motors for the vans in those days werebetween the passenger and driver. If he had hit my big Duce-and-a-quarter-he would have been wiped out! Instead, he hit a little puddle-bug, and look what such a small car did!

A seizure is a good possibility as to the cause. Just because meds control seizures does not mean one will be prevented.

I am surprised that Highway 12 is still two-lane road, given today’s cars on the road in California. Highway 99 is finally freeway.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:49 pm

Thanks for your post, Jem. The page numbers you’ve given are for the hardcover edition of ZU. In the 2007 paperback the pages are 174-176 and page 243.

On the first page under the heading "Thursday, August 24, 1976", in either edition discussing Manalli, Graysmith states that Manalli had gone to the German Car Center east of Merced for repairs to his van. I am trying to nail down this information because I think it might be a little misleading.

There is a town named Merced which is in the general area of where Kathleen Johns was kidnapped. It really doesn’t make any sense to me that Manalli would drive all the way to the town of Merced for car repairs. What I think is more likely is the car repair shop was located in Santa Rosa near Merced Avenue, the nearest cross street to where Manalli’s Highway 12 accident occured.

I don’t know if Graysmith was trying to loosely associate Manalli with being familar with the area where the Johns incident took place or what.

Here are 4 German car autorepair shops in 1970 Santa Rosa City Directory:

Here is one active today. It is located 3.9 miles north/east of Merced Avenue in Santa Rosa.
Somone local could call them and ask if they existed back in 1976:

GERMAN AUTOMOTIVE SERVICE BY RAUL
CA, 345 W 9TH ST, 95401 SANTA ROSA | (707) 544-4844.

volkswagen, independetn full service repair, auto repairing, how do check my brake pads, auto transmissions, automotive, automotive repair, engine mufflers exhaust systems, engine rebuilding

And this might be the same bizz:

Entity Name: GERMAN-AMERICAN AUTOMOTIVE SERVICES, INCORPORATED
Entity Number: C0604773
Date Filed: 08/10/1970 Status: SUSPENDED
Jurisdiction: CALIFORNIA
Entity Address: *
Entity City, State, Zip: *
Agent for Service of Process: *
Agent Address: *
Agent City, State, Zip: *



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:21 pm

Thanks TF. This would have been in 1976 though. The last time I was at the library in Santa Rosa I asked to look at the Polk’s Directory for 1976. They had switched over to the Haines Criss-Cross Directory by then and things were not indexed the same as the Polk’s. They did not list by name or type of business only address and phone number. I was running short on time and didn’t ask if they had a 1976 phone book. They need to go to the basement for that kind of stuff and it takes forever so I will have to do it next time I’m there.

I was able to find the page in the Criss-Cross directory for the address Manalli was living when he died but he is not listed. His address on the DC is 6665 Sebastopol Rd Sebastopol. That street is called Road in Santa Rosa but Avenue in Sebastopol so the DC is off on that. Manalli did live in a trailer park and that is what the Criss-Cross Directory says was there at the time.

The book was huge and I had to make two passes on the copy machine to get everyone who lived at that address. It starts at the bottom of the first column on the first page and continues at the top of the second column of the second page.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:31 pm

Here’s what 6665 looks like today.



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:54 pm

So an auto malfunction? I personally know of a man here locally who drove
home and crashed his car. They took him to Emergency, and then released him
to go on home. When he got home he hung himself in the backyard for his six
children and wife to find. I don’t write this stuff, I just report it.

By the way my POI, drank himself to death at the age of 52. Alcoholism.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Where have you gone Fred Manalli? This thread really died off as we seem to have hit the proverbial ‘wall’ in investigation of him. My local library was trying to get me some of his writings, but then they vanished and I cant get anything. Maybe I will have to stop in and surprise them….TRAV, you seem to have been taking a little Zodiac vacation like myself…its good to recharge the old batteries. Seagull,did you ever get anythingg additional? Ever get that PARADISE story?

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:36 am

I’m really surprised this guy is not getting more attention. The handwriting analysis done by Trav shows such amazing similarities to the Z writings, imo. Can’t imagine we could ever find a closer match. Maybe Fred never killed anyone, maybe he did not create the codes, maybe he didn’t even compose the letters himself, but imo FM wrote those letters and, therefore, he’s somehow involved.

A few items of possible interest:
1) The name Eric means "red" in Old Norse. F-rederic. That’s 2 REDs
– Red Phantom letter – 2 REDs
– Desktop poem – 2 REDs

2) Some posters here think the strange symbol on the Halloween Card looks a lot like the former logo used by Macmillan & Co. publishers.
– First two letters of Macmillan are MA and last five letters reversed are NALLI.

3) In one of his letters, Fred mentions something like things started "after the assassination", referring to his mental condition, maybe? He doesn’t say whose assassination, but likely it was JFK, RFK or MLKJr.
– In the Unsolved 32 cipher, the only letters that are reversed are J, F and K.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:20 am

The name Eric means "red" in Old Norse. F-rederic.

His name is actually spelled Fredric.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:47 am

The name Eric means "red" in Old Norse. F-rederic.

His name is actually spelled Fredric.

Yeah, it is. Sorry bout that! I thought it was Frederic because that’s how it’s spelled on this website showing his Master’s thesis, Short Stories: The Blakentia Sextet. Obviously misspelled there.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Short_Stories.html?id=NyKKNwAACAAJ



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:12 pm

I’ve came back to this and I think it was inspired by recent discussion somewhere on the forum about Zodiac and Stine murder and dogs etc etc. I’ve pondered it before, as to where he went on that evening. As we all have. I don’t know but there are certain things that would seem tie in to all of the attacks and even alleged attacks.

First of all I noticed that they all occur on or pretty near to a major freeway network. Then I couldn’t fail to notice that his same system ran through Santa Rosa.

In fact it’s more than that. Hopefully what I’m posting will make sense. I’m slightly reticent about this as it involves Santa Rosa and Manalli and I would prefer to be more objective but regardless of a POI there might be something in it.

First off here’s an overview of the FWY Network I’m talking about

Next is Berryessa. We don’t know how he arrived but he left via Napa and headed west. Here are the options that I can see after leaving Beyyessa to get to Napa.

We know he’s moving west because he has to deliberately turn west to get to Napa.

Now this part moves into theory territory. If we assume that he continues West, where’s he heading? well lets suggest for now that it’s back onto that FWY Network. So here’s possible and logical routes that lead to Santa Rosa. I also want to add that this need not involve Manalli but it could potentially involve Santa Rosa as it appears to serve as a logical return point in this theory. Try and think about it as if there was no Santa Rosa POI connection, but keep an open mind that it might lol. Simples. :D

Next if we look at Vallejo. This will have to include a mention of LHR but we don’t have anything to go on. As with Berryessa he leaves the crime scene and heads West. Now we know that he did this to make the phone call to police very close the police department so he travelled a fair bit into vallejo to do this. It also brought him close to an intersection to get back onto the FWY Network. An intersection that coincidentally looks like a zodiac symbol. I’ve marked the 4 main routes out and he could have taken any of them but they could also have eventually took him back to the freeway but if he’s already west like he did after LB then we have to consider that West might be important.

Here’s an overview of the route if he had indeed been heading for Santa Rosa.

Next Shows Vallejo, Benicia and Paul Stine in relation to the network.

This bit concerns Manalli. We know he lived in Santa Rosa and travelled to work in San Quentin. Yup its also on the same FWY network and infact a major chunk of it invloved his one time route to work.

So there you have it. Oh I should mention that the FWY extends out east and goes right between Lake Tahoe and Reno. OH and it also runs right through Modesto which is where Zodiac followed KJ from. From Modesto on Hwy 132 until she got onto the I5 at the intersection. Again heading west from one main route on the network to another. If in doubt, get back on the freeway.

There is also the possibility that he took a quick exit option after PS and headed directly north which would be the quickest way to rejoin the network. Or that might have been his plan anyway. He states that after he ‘came out of cover’ he then "disappeared into the park never to be seen again." Does this imply that once he was in the park he was home free, or perhaps more likely reached his vehicle. If this was the case it’s in keeping with him heading in the direction of home as he may well have been after the other attacks, in this instance it would be North.

Santa Rosa just happens to fit on this network in a good place for operating from but as to whether it’s relevant beyond that and Manalli I can’t say I can only speculate but may be a pattern here regarding zodiac’s movement (that we know of) after each crime. Moving west after the majority of them and then potentially moving North after the Stine attack.

With regards Manalli SF, Santa Rosa, Oakland and San Leandro are all on this major network and Sebastopol is just to the west of Santa Rosa with an arterial road connecting it to the major network. This also gives alternatives as to escape routes from the crimes. Most notably LHR, BRS and Kathleen johns.

So we have two things here really. Do the Zodiac’s actions after each attack give us a clue to where he was heading? Does factoring in Manalli’s residence at the time of the crimes tell us anything useful or telling.

WOW. Hope that all made sense. :D

Lastly here’s a pulled image to show where Tahoe fits on the network.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:16 am

Having lived in the Napa Valley and Franz Valley which is technically Santa Rosa I can tell you that the route anyone familar with the area would take to get from Lake Berryessa to Santa Rosa. From Berryessa you would take Hwy 128 going in a westerly direction, when it combines with Hwy 29 go north to Calistoga. Then you would make a left on Petrified Forest Rd. in Calistoga and go over the mountain past the Petrified Forest until you come to Porter Creek Rd. You have a choice here, if you turn right on to Porter Creek Rd. you will be going towards Hwy 101 just north of Santa Rosa, you will also pass Franz Valley Rd., where three of the SRHM victims were found, which is about three miles from that intersection. You will also go along side the creek where the last SRHM victim was found.

If you continue straight on Petrified Forest Rd. it becomes Calistoga Rd. at the intersection. Two of the SRHM victims were found on Calistoga Rd. Calistoga Rd. takes you to Hwy 12, where if you turn right you end up right in downtown Santa Rosa.

Yes, you can get to Santa Rosa by the route you’ve outlined but it’s the long way.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:33 am

Well there’s no reason that he couldn’t have used your route to get there and my route to get back? We know he headed south then turned westward and headed for Napa. But that’s good Deb, the sort of things I was hoping this might be useful for with people seeing how their own POI’s stack up against the road and heading west theory.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:45 am

Yeah Trav, he could have done that. There’s the possibility that he went to Napa, made the phone call and headed north on Hwy 29 in Napa and went back to Santa Rosa by the route I described. There are also other crossroads off of Hwy 29 that go over towards the Santa Rosa area.

Oakville Grade in Oakville, which becomes Trinity Rd at the Sonoma County line and ends at Hwy 12 near Kenwood or St. Helena Rd. out of St. Helena on Hwy 29. St. Helena Rd. ends at Calistoga Rd. and you would turn left to get to Santa Rosa.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:20 am

would your route require you to be familiar with the area?

EDIT: Never mind you as much as said that lol.

Here’s the HWY 128 route marked, I think.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:26 pm

Finally got my hands on this ‘PARADISE’ story written by Manalli. I intend to read it later on this evening, and will post what I can here of it.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:44 pm

To our Northern Ireland Friend, Traveller:

The map, above, does not come close to Santa Rosa. I don’t remember if Highway 12 went to Napa in the 1960’s – today, one could backtrack on 29 and take 12 to Santa Rosa. Santa Rosa is over two sets of
hills to the far west of where Napa would be. I used to go there a lot, but would take 37 to 121 and stay on that as it becomes 12 and goes right into Santa Rosa. From Napa, there is the Napa Wine Country – over the other side of the hills, there is the Sonoma Wine Country, and over the other side of those hills is Santa Rosa.

Being familiar helps, for sure. Keep in mind, I drove those routes in the early 1960’s – I am sure they have changed. I lived in the bay area for 55 years, but never considered Santa Rosa as part of the bay area. For commute purposes, it is considered part of the SF Bay Area today.

If Manalli was in Vallejo, he would be better to take the route I mentioned, above, as it is faster then 29.

Just a matter of opinion, but I prefer the Sonoma Wine Country to the Napa Wine Area, probably because it is less commercialized and very pretty.
You can access Santa Rosa from there.

If anyone was at Berryessa, the route Seagull gave is the easiest. I don’t know, anymore, but there was no through freeway from Santa Rosa to, say Sacramento, at that time, so one had to take back roads.

Please correct me if I am wrong – it has been so long since I went to Santa Rosa.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:54 pm

Here is the story PARADISE,IT’S A NICE PLACE, by Fred manalli. I don’t see any smoking guns from manalli in the story, although we see his knowledge and further discussion of firearms, and he uses the word ‘FIDDLE’. I still think, on top of the other 45 pages of manalli stuff here, that the timing of this story is incredible. Zodiac uses the term "slaves in Paradise" only a few months before the Manalli story about Paradise is printed, which means, he likely was writing it earlier in 1969.













traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:01 pm

Thanks for posting Morf.

Just glancing through it at the minute but these caught my eye. One being the variation on Paradise with the mention of Pair-O-Dice as the old name containing the "c".

The other was the phrasing in the second highlighted bit which made me think of "I’d like to report a murder – no, a double murder".

We’ve discussed some of the other pages before in respect the german revolver and basement workshops filled with wires. I found the little dialogue he has with himself regarding the conversation had about the shoe repair shop where, after been told that the shoes are sold at cost after a certain time he ponders with the words "at what cost?and sold to whom?". I just have to wonder about the implication here – what is he suggesting to the reader? The "at what cost" part I can understand, perhaps suggesting an unseen series of events that could be affected by, or already have happened, that somehow involve your shoes not being collected and ultimately sold.

The bit I’m no so sure about is the "to whom?". When coupled with "at what cost?" as it is, it suggests a cost incurred due to the shoes being sold to a certain person. There is also mention of a stitching machines as well.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:19 pm

Good observations TRAV. I do recall some posts here, or on another forum perhaps, discussing the spelling of PARADISE vs PARADICE….etc, and possibly some meaning or clue pointing to Paradise CA. Will have to see if I can find it. Anybody remember it?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:01 am

Nicastro appears to be real.

1968 and the name Frederick pop up in it’s history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicastro



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:16 am

Good observations TRAV. I do recall some posts here, or on another forum perhaps, discussing the spelling of PARADISE vs PARADICE….etc, and possibly some meaning or clue pointing to Paradise CA. Will have to see if I can find it. Anybody remember it?

I seem to recall that Nanette Barto said she found the Paradice spelling on an old. old map of the area. I don’t know that she ever posted an image of the map though.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:33 am

Good observations TRAV. I do recall some posts here, or on another forum perhaps, discussing the spelling of PARADISE vs PARADICE….etc, and possibly some meaning or clue pointing to Paradise CA. Will have to see if I can find it. Anybody remember it?

I seem to recall that Nanette Barto said she found the Paradice spelling on an old. old map of the area. I don’t know that she ever posted an image of the map though.

Oh….Nanette Barto…. :roll: Don’t hold your breath



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:50 pm

Paradise, CA is about 30 miles east of Chico. It is quite a ways from Santa Rosa, or any known Z activities. It is more known as a retirement community.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:46 pm

Thanks for posting Morf.

I found the little dialogue he has with himself regarding the conversation had about the shoe repair shop where, after been told that the shoes are sold at cost after a certain time he ponders with the words "at what cost?and sold to whom?". I just have to wonder about the implication here – what is he suggesting to the reader? The "at what cost" part I can understand, perhaps suggesting an unseen series of events that could be affected by, or already have happened, that somehow involve your shoes not being collected and ultimately sold.

The bit I’m no so sure about is the "to whom?". When coupled with "at what cost?" as it is, it suggests a cost incurred due to the shoes being sold to a certain person. There is also mention of a stitching machines as well.

Is this just a coincidence?

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … sman#31269



zodio, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:57 am

There was an old map posted at DKs board at one time. Thought I had it copied but unable to find it at present. It was spelled Paradice on there. Don’t remember if Piddles or someone else posted it.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:15 pm

Are you talking about Kauffy’s board? I can’t imagine anyone posting an old map there, unless it had something to do with "Jack the Zodiac."

Maybe the map has some significance in relation to Manelli, but any information on that site, I would take with a grain of salt.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:58 am

Little bit of Manalli related Zynchronicity.

Plot: THE CHIEF IS BACK ON THE JOB. When a shocking double homicide rocks the
quiet town of Paradise
, Jesse…



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:58 am

As I’m sure you all know that I think there is something about Manalli’s writing that I can’t quite put my finger on or at least haven’t found a reasonable way to explain yet.

I look at it on and off and will present more when I can. Even when I look now at it still I keep finding things and it still surprises me and I mean in a spine tingly way. I thought that would have worn off by now but it hasn’t. I couldn’t quite understand why his writing would have so many little things interspersed throughout it and even within those have variations that seem to either match Zodiac’s or appear to be a mirrored version of them.

Then we come to Zodiac’s writing itself. Was it disguised? Well there seem to be suggestions that it may have been but there’s no definitive answer to that. Then there was the suggestion that’s been around for a while now that he copied his writing from different sources. Again no answer or proof either way on that.

Considering these things together an idea occurred to me that might satisfy all of those criteria. It’s probably unlikely but it’s more of a complete idea at least.

He did copy the writing but not from different sources or different people, from himself. He created a chart of characters with variations of certain characters to choose from. Flip this one, mirror that one and have it as a rough reference board to pick n choose from as opposed to tracing them. Kinda like having symbols to choose from for a cipher. It would be a pretty neat way to create a different writing style but still be a style that you can write in because it is still your writing style, kinda. Plus you still have the freedom to vary even more between the reference stage and application so that it retains some fluidity.

It may be convoluted and impractical in practice but it’s how I might approach it, in theory anyway. Whether its right or wrong it gives an explanation, to me at least, of why characters here and there in Manalli’s writing appear in Zodiac’s writing as either damn close, spot on, mirrored or a variation.

EDIT: There is a suggestion of this in Zodiac’s writing itself where he uses variations or even a different style of this like the g or ampersand to name a few.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:47 am

Good thinking TRAV…Fred’s writing still looks good too, lots of Zodiac’s habits etc visible. Personally, I cant see him tracing his own(or anybody else’s)writing,it would take hours upon hours. I think I could write one letter in my own writing, and one nmy disguised writing and make them different,no tracing at all. Here are two pages I just wrote in less than a minute…..

Yes,I know, both letters look like a serial killer’s handwriting :lol: , but one of them is in my natural everyday writing, and one is in my ‘hidden’ writing that I accomplished by holding the pen in a different way in my fingers. There may be some similarity, butI think anybody would agree, there certainly is not any direct match that screams out that I wrote both letters. I think the same is true of Manalli’s writing



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:54 am

I agree, tracing would take far too long and that’s why I’m thinking some kind of rough reference or guide to glance at as a reminder of what you are working with.

Alas though I still can’t shake the feeling that Zodiac’s writing isn’t just his own. I mean I have seen other people writing that have those little variations in them as well. So it is just and idea as to how you would go about disguising your writing beyond merely slanting it or writing quickly.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:12 am

Morph, They look the same to me…. but is it because the similarities genuinely stand out or is it because I know that they are by the same person so I’m tricking myself into seeing what may or may not really be similarities? It’s that power of suggestion that I hate and always nags at me when I’m trying to look at writing comparisons.

But I think these kinds of experiments are helpful. I wonder a lot if in doing any kind of such comparisons, not just handwriting, if it would be good to throw in red herrings just to see how it effected the results.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:28 am

They look the same to me as well despite the differences – try harder young ZODIAC lol.

EDIT – you forgot to change the k’s they both look like weird swastika’s



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:39 pm

The Saga Continues.

Here I have taken 4 Zodiac Letters. The Stine letter and the Belli letter as they had pieces of Paul stine’s Shirt, then two contentious ones, the Badlands card and one of the Bates letters and the car door. No real reason, just wanted a nice spread.

I took the Stine letter first and compiled a lower case alphabet from its character and tried to keep them typically zodiac ones as we know them. I then did the same for the other 3 letters.

So, four lowercase alphabets written by Zodiac. Four distinct styles that work as an alphabet in flow and form.

Now …

To Manalli.

I have approx 36 pages of written material in the form of letters covering the 60’s – mid 70’s.(Thanks to Seagull). I then opened a file and set about looking for a match to that first ‘a’ then ‘b’ and so on for that first alphabet. Going through every page sometimes 8-10 times over as I kept finding better matches for previous alphabets as I worked on the current one.

There is of course the car door and the Bates letter which were too short to provide an alphabet. So they were just matched as is.

I want to point out that the Zodiac alphabets have not been altered. They have been cut n pasted straight in and and only sized as a whole once complete. There has been no flipping, turning, skewing applied to the individual characters. Their size proportions to each other are the same as they were to each other in the letter.

The same has been done with the Manalli alphabets except that these characters have been picked from a larger source over many pages and spanning many years in some cases so minor individual sizing was necessary to ensure ease of comparison. There was hardly any needed though. Again it was minor re-sizing, not turning or compressing, nuttin.

The writing’s we have are 99% cursive. So every single character has been pulled from a sea of cursive with all of Zodiacs alphabets interspersed and mixed up in it.

Out of 36 pages, Manalli’s writing was able to provide (in my strong estimation) 3 alphabets to match the styles of of the Zodiac’s 3 alphabets and also have a high degree of visually matching characters within those alphabets.

The car door’s being a bit annoying so it’s just rough work at the minute but once I concentrate solely on it the others will get even better through finding better characters as will it.

This stuff now isn’t even finished and there’s lots more to come and to be pulled onto a larger picture. Look forward to your comments.

UPDATED LARGE PIC


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:50 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
Topic starter
 



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:48 pm

Well, the Belli letter and Badlands exemplar have blown my mind.

Great job.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:56 pm

Blew mine too.

Oh and all of Zodiac’s variations on his own characters that ren’t shown here – Manalli has matches for those as well.

I only discovered within the last hour but I think I’ve found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there’s a reason for the mirrored characters.



duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:11 pm

Can you tell me anything about the "q"’s? Especially from the Belli letter. The comparison for the Stine letter look Ok, but a little off. Then you got Z’s "q" from the Belli letter that looks nothing like the previous one, but it looks really weird and FM’s is a weird one too that looks a pretty good match. That’s something that really stood out to me.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:20 pm

Can’t really tell you any more than you can see. Both q’s end with a figure 8 sign off. Construction direction is the same.

For some perspective – no pun inteded – some of those characters of Manalli’s only appear once in 36 pages. His y for example that ‘s the only one his usual y is a loopy thing. Oh AND HIS L/C q – the 8 THING only ever used it once.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:58 pm

Can you tell me anything about the "q"’s? Especially from the Belli letter. The comparison for the Stine letter look Ok, but a little off. Then you got Z’s "q" from the Belli letter that looks nothing like the previous one, but it looks really weird and FM’s is a weird one too that looks a pretty good match. That’s something that really stood out to me.

I had an issue with the Q as well. Both are slightly different from each other, but at the same time, both look unusual. But then I said to myself, hell, forget the Q, the other 25 are very close, so for me, the 25 similar letters override the different Q.

I also thought that the ‘BATES HAD TO DIE’ letters looked very close to Manalli. It;s really frustrating that we can not find any evidence of Manalli being in Riverside despite Graysmith’s claims that he did have ties there.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:09 am

Don’t worry about the non really close matches. Also look at the pen weight the angles of the letters the different b’s and g’s and the others and that they appear in both, the same construction.

I don’t know odds but they gotta be decent. I’m quite stunned by it TBH.

EDIT: Actually I think I can explain why. Think of the examples above as typefaces. If I were looking at those as a designer, which I am doing lol, I would think those alphabets beside each other were part of the same family and created by the same person because of the styles.

That’s why I’m stunned by it.



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:31 am

Blew mine too.

Oh and all of Zodiac’s variations on his own characters that ren’t shown here – Manalli has matches for those as well.

I only discovered within the last hour but I think I’ve found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there’s a reason for the mirrored characters.

I have heard of mirror writing but never knew exactly how it was done (I know the magic of the brain does it … in theory :) ) Your work is fantastic … seriously.

Manalli and Ted K. are my favorite two possibilities now but Morf’s Owen guy who just died sure has a lot of facial characteristics that look good too.

Thanks again for all this hard work. I feel a bit lazy just sitting back reading every one else’s hard work. :sleep:



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:47 am

In reviewing the dozens of pages and posts in the Manalli thread, I have compiled a list of my favorite and most interesting things:

*At the same time Zodiac was writing about ‘Slaves in Paradise", Manalli was getting ready to have his story called ‘Paradise, it’s a nice place’ published.

*Both Manalli & Zodiac, write about circles of light, or wording/phrasing that are very similar to each other-

* Both Zodiac & Manalli write about ‘hanging by thumbs’-

* Both Zodiac & Manalli use the same exact symbol for the word ‘and’, and not only is it the same symbol, but it looks like the same handwriting-

* BothZodiac & Manalli use a ‘half W’. Seems like a vert tell-tale similarity, a truly odd habit-

* Both Zodiac & Manalli call their letters, ‘notes’-

* Zodiac referred to himself as a RED PHANTOM, and Manalli uses RED to refer to himself-

* Manalli wrote alot of stuff that showed he might be capable of violence, and even seemed to indicate he had committed violent acts-

* Both Zodiac & Manalli use the term ‘whatshisname’-

* Both Zodiac & Manalli used the word ‘SHALL’ quite a bit, so much so, that some people wondered if Zodiac might be english since the word was not really used by Americans in 1969-



* Both Zodiac & Manalli write the word ‘PUBLIC’ in a strange way, it looks as if its in the shape of a rainbow-

* Both Zodiac & Manalli almost ‘keep score’ in the same way-

* Here is a slew of writing similarities and habits that seem uncanny between Zodiac & Manalli-












* The fact that Manalli writes about James Joyce and Finnegan’s Wake, is of major interest, because that book has purposely misspelled words that are used & misspelled the same exact way by Zodiac

If you add this altogether with TRAV’s side by side breakdowns of ZOdiac’s and Manalli’s writing, its overwhelming. It’s easy to explain away one or two similarities, but when we compare Zodiac & Manalli, and find a long list like this, it’s pretty alarming.

And this will most likely remain an unsolved mystery, but this personal ad placed in the SF Chronicle a couple days after Manalli died in a car accident, really fascinates me . It sounds from the terminology "deep real estate", that somebody is dead, like 6 ft under….maybe its a coincidence as we have seen before, but the timing is so great, you couldnt make this stuff up-



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:49 am

Blew mine too.

Oh and all of Zodiac’s variations on his own characters that ren’t shown here – Manalli has matches for those as well.

I only discovered within the last hour but I think I’ve found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there’s a reason for the mirrored characters.

I have heard of mirror writing but never knew exactly how it was done (I know the magic of the brain does it … in theory :) ) Your work is fantastic … seriously.

Manalli and Ted K. are my favorite two possibilities now but Morf’s Owen guy who just died sure has a lot of facial characteristics that look good too.

Thanks again for all this hard work. I feel a bit lazy just sitting back reading every one else’s har

I think it’s mirror writing. I’ll probably have to you tube to make sure – the name makes sense for it anyway.

I also think….stand well back…..here comes the math’s……maybe. Bet I get this wrong lol.

I think….. it’s like asking what are the odds of taking 4 different styles of hand writing mixing them together and creating a 5th typeface that looks nothing like any of them? I think.

(end of how many times can I say ‘think’ game ……I……It…..Ith……hopefully, phew)



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:02 am

Okay, I am determined not to read more into Trav and Morf’s writing and style analyses than what is there but that many similarities can not be coincidence.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:11 am

Good job, Trav and Morf! Been wishing one of ya’ll would do a "Best of Manalli as Zodiac". This is just what I wanted to see.

Trav wrote:
I only discovered within the last hour but I think I’ve found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there’s a reason for the mirrored characters.

Wow!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:29 am

At the very least I’ve got an idea for my junior Zodiac Detective Kit – handwriting trumps card lol. My 3 stroke K beats your 3 stroke K.

I’ll post the mirror thing later. I have to go through every line and page to find it because it’s east to miss.

In the mean time there’s this. I could create a better match but here’s a straight lift of Manalli’s word ‘guess’ vs the one in the ‘death machine car’ letter. His writing is even similar to the hoaxes lol. Manalli uses the g shown here in the VPD elsewhere in his writing. He seems to interchange them, sometimes many times even in the same word on occasion.

Here’s an example of different styles in one word. Also the word PERSPECTIVE on the other page is his – 2 different P,s 2 Different E’s and he has a 3rd E he also uses.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:03 am

Last night, I was reviewing all of this stuff, and putting an entire report together in a microsoft word file for Manalli, and by the time I was done, it was 30 pages long….30 pages of similairities, points of interest, etc….

I could see one or two things being similar between Manalli & Zodiac, but all of the stuff we have found just seems like a mountain of stuff. It seems too much to be a coincidence.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:12 pm

Here’s the mirror-ish thing. Get you head’s around this one, not sure I’ve seen this before in anyone’s writing.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:20 pm

Update on previous stuff.

Morf mentioned his stuff coming to 30 page so far. You could also fill that with this stuff. There’s so many similarities at every level. I’m gonna try and get the energy to now to look at the little matching mistakes which I think are very very significant. This stuff has taken over 20 hours so far but the variations and style matches are phenomenal and deserve that much attention.

Like Patinky, I too am trying to keep an open mind and am quite prepared to be amazed that people can have all these similarities and not be the same handwriting.

I have made a small collage of some of Manalli’s letters and some random words to show you the style variations and what these similarities were taken from.

Some of the alphabets that have been presented already have also been improved.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:32 pm

TRAV…..this is great work,thanks for the effort.

The comparison you made reading ‘BATES HAD TO DIE’ looks like its from the same writer. I wish we had some smoking gun putting Manalli in Riverside. That writing is uncanny,thanks for the effort



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:14 pm

No probs,

This really has become a case of the sheer amount of matching variations almost becoming as important as identical letters because there isn’t always a match for each one.

I think this recent comp shows just how close these similarities are, especially when you start getting down to being able to create alphabets that match visually.

I don’t know about you Morf but this guy melts my head.

BTW the very last E on the last bates letter. I think he messed it up and then corrected it that’s why I’ve shown both of Manalli’s upper case E’s. He didn’t want to use the more unique E I think it’s the same for his z’s which look like backward versions of his unique E’s.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:25 pm

TRAV, Can you do an enlarged closeup of the ‘BATES HAD TO DIE’ comparison?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:33 pm



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:35 am

The Bates Had To Die comparisons are making my head melt too!

The "RE" in "MORE" is amazing. The entire series of "Bates Had To Die" comparisons give me goose bumps.

Another thing that keeps nagging at me is Manalli’s death date and bam … Zodiac seems to have disappeared.

The Paradise book.

His height.

His location/residence.

The one big negative on this guy is the Stine murder and what is known about the fleeing suspect. I just can’t see an officer making such a major error in a suspect’s height.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:02 am

Yeah I know.

This guy doesn’t seem to fit. Maybe that’s what makes it intriguing. All I can do is work through the handwriting. I couldn’t even being to try and explain the appearance aspects.

More stuff. Regarding the mirror effect – it’s not strictly mirroring but that’s what I ‘m calling it. Zodiac does it too.

Spotted this by accident. Look at the W’s here. The are the same but they aren’t. They are both drawn in the same direction but they are opposites of each other in shape. Small loop to big loop on one then big loop to small loop on the other. So weird. That’s another oddity shared. That ‘s’ one was BTW – That is the only place Zodiac uses it on that one page of the bus bomb letter. Manalli uses it aout 3 times in all his pages and I have the exact match for it – will post in another post though as it’s part of similar things.

That’s what I was working on when I spotted the w’s.

EDIT: Actually I’ve just realized it’s weirder than that. The w thing occurs on the two words that are unique in zodiacs writing because of that ‘th’ and
that ‘s’ – Manalli does both. :affraid:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:16 am

Ok here’s a preview. (Work in progress)

I saw a better ‘th’ so those are just placements. The ‘s is the one I was looking for, the others are placements. Manlli’s t’s match a variation of Zodiac’s ampersand or +. The ‘O’ on Manalli’s one matches Zodiac’s weird ‘open’ ampersand but again in a reversed, mirror way. There is another of Manalli’s ‘t’s’ that match Zodiac usual ampersand exactly, still looking for it again though and then on to O’s and zeros, I think there may be a reversal of direction on both accounts for these.

Actually just found previous work on the ‘th’



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:30 am

There’s maybe more detail here that’s being lost in the posting. Here’s a blow up of a section of the last bates letter. The letter writer suddenly uses an upper case R with a little tick at the start.

Manalli’s example doesn’t but I’ve used it because the shape is closer. Does that bother me? No – look at the other examples of Manalli’s R’s below it – bingo. His writing has been like this all along. Dead end, then a door opens.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:28 am

I want to correct a statement I made earlier.

I said that Manalli’s handwriting was 99% cursive. That is incorrect. Whilst looking at this tonight I’ve realized that his writing is a woven mixture of both. He uses a chaotic mix even in the same word. 2 letters cursive, 3 print, 1 cursive, 1 print – that chaotic. At a glance it looks cursive but when you look at it it’s a total mixed bag that flows to create his style.

Within that chaos there are different styles that don’t appear progressive ie he can suddenly switch to a different style used years earlier. It’s like a typeface pick n mix.

I hope someday an analyst can look at this writing and see what they can tell about him from it.

I feel like a scientist with this stuff. As I work I find myself almost unable to avoid having theories to explain why some things appear to be happening. My most recent has kinda stunned me a little bit because as soon as it popped into my head it made possible sense of events in the case and even why other people’s theories exist. I say popped, it was more like exploded and I wasn’t expecting it – it was all down to Manalli’s hand writing and one page in particular that had at least 3 different styles on it, flowing together.

The jist of it involves multiple personalities (something I know nothing about). That’s why I was doing riddles n stuff in chit-chat, that was the minute it occurred to me.

I won’t spell it out here because even tho Maniili research inspired it I don’t want to tie it exclusively to him as it could be relevant to other POI’s so I will start a new thread at a later point. Although I will say that a prerequisite would probably have to be a pre-existing and possibly progressive & aggressive psychiatric condition and also a level of complexity in their writing akin to Manalli’s.

It sounds like a plausible work of fiction but possibly because it would be a great movie plot lol. There are interesting elements to it though that would tie it to many threads and discussions so even if it’s rubbish there may be something useful in it.

I will do it soon but it is late / early here and I just wanted to give you all a head’s up and a bit of background thinking as to why I would be suddenly discussing this type of theory.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:29 am

The one big negative on this guy is the Stine murder and what is known about the fleeing suspect. I just can’t see an officer making such a major error in a suspect’s height.

Bear in mind that Fouke saw Zodiac for less than ten seconds, and at a distance. Another report cites him as estimating Zodiac’s height as six-foot-two.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:59 am

Excellent and interessting work Trav and Morf!!!

I think it’s time for LE proffessional handwriting expert to check out this Manalli stuf.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:17 am

Thanks TF.

Yes I agree. Even to find out if this is normal lol, all these styles in one persons handwriting, I don’t think it is.

Not sure if this was discussed but Manalli was in both of these in HS/College

Naughty Marietta (operetta)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naughty_Marietta_(operetta )

Rio Rita (musical)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Rita_(musical )

He was also A Capella & Madrigal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrigal



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:19 am

Astounding work, Trav! Brilliant, really! I agree with The Foreigner.

Thanks Nachtsider. Did you mean the Hartnell reference to Zodiac being nearly as tall as Hartnell? Or did someone besides Fouke believe think the Stine suspect was 6’2"? I don’t remember a Stine report giving that height but hey, I forget more than I remember now days!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:17 am

Thank you Patinky.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:25 am

This is the second time Manalli mentions driving a taxi as a job. It is the first time he mentions the possibility of working in the Shipyard for a living. I wonder if he did either and where. Did he know anyone that was a taxi driver?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:26 am

Stine was going to SF university,correct? I think that Manalli went there too,but years earlier. I think SEAGULL knows the details



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:28 am

Trav here are the addresses of the cab companies in SF 1969/70. Are any of them near where Manalli lived?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:37 am

Yes, Morf Manalli did go to SF State College. He went in the first half of the ’60’s because by 1965 he was teaching at SRJC.

Personally, even though I’m not convinced that Manalli could have been Zodiac, I find his job at San Quentin Prison most intriguing. If he were Zodiac he could have learned so much there from the prisoners, particularly forgers who could have unknowingly given him tips on handwriting disguise not to mention those prisoners who were imprisoned for murder. You can learn from other people’s mistakes and there was a large pool to draw from!



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:49 pm

Yes, Morf Manalli did go to SF State College. He went in the first half of the ’60’s because by 1965 he was teaching at SRJC.

Personally, even though I’m not convinced that Manalli could have been Zodiac, I find his job at San Quentin Prison most intriguing. If he were Zodiac he could have learned so much there from the prisoners, particularly forgers who could have unknowingly given him tips on handwriting disguise not to mention those prisoners who were imprisoned for murder. You can learn from other people’s mistakes and there was a large pool to draw from!

Ott was at San Quentin too.

Are we finding a new team Zodiac? :suspect: :lol:



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:07 pm

LOL! I think that Ott was too young to have been at San Quentin when Manalli taught there in the early ’60’s.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:08 pm

C HARRY OTT is what is on the Leo card not SEE HARRY OTT.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:22 pm

C HARRY OTT is what is on the Leo card not SEE HARRY OTT.

What I meant was, that the one FBI file(forget the exact wording) stated that CHARIOTT may have translated to C HARRY OTT (see Harry Ott)



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:30 pm

LOL! I think that Ott was too young to have been at San Quentin when Manalli taught there in the early ’60’s.

I was joking, but according to TheForgeiner’s post Ott was in SQ in ’62.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:49 pm

Oh Really :affraid: For some reason I didn’t think he was that old. This case causes serious information overload!



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:20 pm

Oh Really :affraid: For some reason I didn’t think he was that old. This case causes serious information overload!

Is your brain melting now, too, Seagull. :P



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:16 pm

Can we dig this guy up already?

These are whole word lifts to compare characters, spacing and overall form. I had to stop.

I could re-create exactly with individual characters barre the extremely flourished letters.

Stunned, again.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:17 pm

Update of this.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:24 pm

Thanks Nachtsider. Did you mean the Hartnell reference to Zodiac being nearly as tall as Hartnell? Or did someone besides Fouke believe think the Stine suspect was 6’2"? I don’t remember a Stine report giving that height but hey, I forget more than I remember now days!

Fouke gave that figure in an initial broadcast, according to Mel Nicolai of the DOJ.



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:45 am

Thanks, Nachtsider. I don’t think I knew this.

Trav, where do you want me to meet you with my shovel? :bounce:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:12 am

Thanks, Nachtsider. I don’t think I knew this.

Trav, where do you want me to meet you with my shovel? :bounce:

Hehehe, Actually I wonder where he is buried. Must read back.

In the meantime, here’s how the car door is proceeding. It’s probably been the least forthcoming regarding matches but then it is a different set of conditions we’re looking at here. There are certain thing’s like the p in sept that I don’t think Zodiac himself used again or before. Still it’s not bad. 6:30 is pretty much bang on, even down to the angle of the colon and the the larger dot at the bottom.

The other variations I have left in as well and will no doubt add more but probably not too much. As it is I was limited by this one anyway as it was mostly numbers and there far less of those to work from. Having said that I can still see matches in angles and of course even distorted width’s with the like of the 6:30. Even the variation matches in the way the 6’s were made.

The ‘e’ on knife is unique to the car door, as are quite a few of the characters, but even at that I’m pretty sure I can affect a shape match to one of Manalli’s ‘e’s’. As it stands at the moment I have tried to stick to straight comparisons so nothing has been stretched or rotated and it’s like for like ie if it’s a 1 it’s matched with a 1, not an i or lower case l for example. I say this because I could compare Manalli’s z’s to the 2’s for a better visual match to show that he can, and has, created that shape on paper but to be honest I’d rather not. All the comp’s so far have been ‘pure’ as I call them, like for like and no distortion other than minor, proportional, re-sizing.

I have found way too many striking similarities in so many aspects of this guy’s writing, even down to habits that I have only touched on with regards the mirror thing, there are other shared habits. Simply put, I just keep finding thing’s that rule the handwriting in rather than out and I wish I knew either way but I’m not an expert but not a novice either. I’ve spent enough years crafting typefaces and trying to untangle french curves to know shape and form matches when I see them and this guy’s writing is riddled with them.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:35 am

Geat work as usual TRAV…. The many, many similarities outscore any differences in my opinion.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:41 am

Geat work as usual TRAV…. The many, many similarities outscore any differences in my opinion.

Thanks Morf,

Yup, that’s how I feel about it, it’s ‘drownding’ in similarities right across the board.

EDIT: Some additions to this one.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:57 am

Some of Manalli’s writing looks the exact same as Zodiac’s, but it might appear to be ‘mirrored’ as you call it.

I looked up ‘mirrored’ writing and Google has many results(including something different, like an ambulance that has its logo backwards so when you see it inyour rearview mirror, you can easily read the word ambulance). But i did find this book about handwriting ID & disguise, you may want to look at-

http://books.google.com/books?id=X-2XBy … 22&f=false

There are some helpful tips which we may want to consider in comparing Manalli’s writing (and anybody else’s)to Zodiac:








traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:13 am

Nice one Morf,

Must get a read through that later. Very interesting.



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:36 pm

I’m seeing a few more examples of 3 stroke Ks. Could you post a half dozen?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:14 pm

I’m seeing a few more examples of 3 stroke Ks. Could you post a half dozen?

I Am sure Trav can indeed. Who uses both 2 stroke & 3 stroke? It doesnt seem natural to use both. I myself am a 3stroker, and wouldnt do a 2 stroke unless I purposely tried to



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:36 pm

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One’s enough for me though.

And Morf’s right, this guy uses both and the same on the y’s – he uses looped and zodiac y’s. It’s not different people it’s one person in 5 minds.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:38 pm

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One’s enough for me though.

Really,I thought there were more?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:46 pm

I was curious so I thought I’d see what this looked like. The height thing I can’t account for but I wouldn’t let facial features rule him out. I can see similarities. Particularly regarding the nose on the composite. If you look at it logically the I think the composite is trying to depict a long (or more on the long side than the short) nose and that would fit with Manalli. I’ve long pondered the nose thing as I’m sure we all have and wondered what the profile would look like.

It makes sense to me that the nose should have more of a pronounced profile than not because going by the length in the composite a flat nose at that length would look really weird.

His chin is interesting as well. It’s a reasonably robust looking thing with a mound and a dimple. A feature that usually has the effect of making someone look heavy set or a ‘bit of a bruiser’ (think Marv in Sin City).

Last but not least, the glasses. I can attest to the fact that wearing thick rimmed glasses can do two relevant things to a person appearence. Providing a stronger focal point than the features, they can detract from things like a prominent nose or heavy eyebrows.

EDIT: Bear in mind this image is from 1957

For what its worth, the 3 girls at Berryessa described the mystery guy watching them as being 6ft-6ft2,certainly closer to Manalli’s height(if the guy the girls seen was zodiac)
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html

On top of all this writing similarity with Manalli,I found myself staring at the side by side of Manalli & the Zodiac sketch again today. Certainly looks close enough in my eyes



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:49 pm

It will look close – the composite can only ever be an approximation. All I know is that for my standards – this guys writing is off the chart – actually scrap that – HE IS THE CHART as far as handwriting is concerned. He displays full alphabets for 2 confirmed letters and damn close similarities – actually not similarities, variations of the same path.

My humble position is – unless someone more qualified can exclude him on handwriting then he wrote those letters. I would love to know either way. Sorry to get all adamant lol.



trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:54 pm

Well, Traveler, just don’t use Nanette Barto!

Seriously, it is too bad Sherwood Morril has passed.

Has Napa Sheriff’s Office given up now that funds are exhausted?
Perhaps they could request the FBI take a look at the handwriting.
Like NCIS, the FBI has excellent document examiners.

I know Manelli is out of the Napa jurisdiction, but more than one killing is involved, and these samples deserve a good scrutiny.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:42 pm

Well, Traveler, just don’t use Nanette Barto!

Seriously, it is too bad Sherwood Morril has passed.

Has Napa Sheriff’s Office given up now that funds are exhausted?
Perhaps they could request the FBI take a look at the handwriting.
Like NCIS, the FBI has excellent document examiners.

I know Manelli is out of the Napa jurisdiction, but more than one killing is involved, and these samples deserve a good scrutiny.

The zodiac case is NOT dead in Napa. Not sure what can be researched or how fast, but the case still is alive!



bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:28 pm

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One’s enough for me though.

And Morf’s right, this guy uses both and the same on the y’s – he uses looped and zodiac y’s. It’s not different people it’s one person in 5 minds.

OK, thanks for checking. In light of all the phrase and spelling matches that have been found I’d agree, not a deal killer, however it seems strange that he would change the basic structure of his usual K (making it 3 stroke) for the Z letters and meanwhile leave every other character a virtual match. So where do we (you guys actually, I’m an observer on this one) go from here to move this forward?



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:15 pm

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One’s enough for me though.

And Morf’s right, this guy uses both and the same on the y’s – he uses looped and zodiac y’s. It’s not different people it’s one person in 5 minds.

OK, thanks for checking. In light of all the phrase and spelling matches that have been found I’d agree, not a deal killer, however it seems strange that he would change the basic structure of his usual K (making it 3 stroke) for the Z letters and meanwhile leave every other character a virtual match. So where do we (you guys actually, I’m an observer on this one) go from here to move this forward?

Personally, I think its not even the letter similarities, but rather the ‘habits’ that are common between Manalli & Zodiac. They incorrectly break the same words at the same part of the words, or leave odd spacing in the middle of words such as, SOME THING, CAUG HT.

Both are very fond of the word, SHALL, a word which was NOT commonly used around 1969, not in America.

Both have shown the same habit of writing ‘half w’s’, in which they do not complete the right side of the w, and it looks unfinished

Zodiac wrote ‘Hang by their thumbs’, and manalli wrote a story in which a character says ‘Hang by your thumbs’

At the time Zodiac wrote ‘slaves in Paradise’, Manalli had a short story being published called ‘Paradise, its a nice place’

Zodiac used all the same misspellings as found in Finnegans wake. Manallimentions the same exact writing.

It goes on and on. One or two things you could pass off as coincidence, but this many things is hard to explain. Both Manalli & Zodiac were looking for attention from their writing.

I guess writing comparisons sent to the FBI or to a questioned document examiner would be the best bet, but we are working with 3rd or 4th generation letters & writing, so I dont know if that is ideal. Besides that, prints or DNA are the only things that would make a positive ID. Napa IS aware of manalli. They ARE aware of Santa Rosa Pd’s interest in him as a killer. Where it goes, not sure. More food for thought, their timelines fit well together too.
Zodiac’s last confirmed letter was 1974. At this time, Manalli moved back to Illinois, and lived there until 75 or 76. He then came back to CA, and was killed in his car accident. Certainly could explain the end of the Z letters.



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:40 pm

Trav, I’ve always thought Manalli favored the Zodiac composite big time.

Your letter comparisons are mind-boggling. If he can’t be excluded then you know what that leaves!

Another thing important in my eyes is Manalli was an English teacher at college level. He easily could have been so familiar with the Tit Willow thing, the Mikado, the literature such as Finegan’s Wake and, well, I could go on and on but I’m getting sleepy.

Great work, Trav. Truly excellent.

I wish AK Wilks would comment because he produced some persuasive arguments for Ted K. Maybe he could be the Devil’s Advocate for Manalli :lol:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:55 pm

Well, Traveler, just don’t use Nanette Barto!

Seriously, it is too bad Sherwood Morril has passed.

I won’t lol and it is too bad about Sherwood but if nothing else, working on this guy’s handwriting has shown me what he was seeing in these letters and I have to say He was awesome at what he did. He could see through the disguised writing and everything, linking things that people have since argued over. I can’t say if Sherwood 100% correct but I certainly can’t say he wasn’t and it’s humbling just to get a glimpse of what he could see. I can’t even begin to imagine what he would have thought of Manalli’s writing but I think I can lol.

If Manalli didn’t write the Zodiac letters it sure is an intriguing benchmark as to the possible type of handwriting that does fit the bill, bearing in mind possible disguising of sed writing.

I think it’s about time that one of the greatest and most iconic design items of the 20th Century was once again invoked into a t-shirt.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:01 am

Trav, I’ve always thought Manalli favored the Zodiac composite big time.

Your letter comparisons are mind-boggling. If he can’t be excluded then you know what that leaves!

Another thing important in my eyes is Manalli was an English teacher at college level. He easily could have been so familiar with the Tit Willow thing, the Mikado, the literature such as Finegan’s Wake and, well, I could go on and on but I’m getting sleepy.

Great work, Trav. Truly excellent.

I wish AK Wilks would comment because he produced some persuasive arguments for Ted K. Maybe he could be the Devil’s Advocate for Manalli :lol:

You are too kind Sir, Thank you.

Well if we can get this thing out of the way one of the next things to look at is TK’s writing. It too has caught my attention and warrants a further look but as many have correctly said, we are working off jpeg copies and it’s a good guide but ultimately not as definitive or accurate as actual on the page analysis of handwriting and that’s a whole other level of scrutiny. We are all learning through this I think, which is cool.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:14 am

FWIW, the copies of Manalli’s handwriting that I have are 1st generation. What I sent Morf are copies of mine and I had them done at a copy place with good equipment. So I guess what he has are 2nd generation. The originals can be viewed if it gets to that point.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:27 am

Thank you Deb,

That may have answered an un-asked question of mine. I wondered about the follow through on his words and if what I was looking at was degraded cursive in some instances but if that isn’t the case then this is most definitely interesting. Actually even if it was degraded cursive it still works.

I still keep in mind that this is your POI or one of them for SRHM and we can’t overlook that either as far as this guy is concerned. It may yet fit a part of a puzzle that might be my crazy theory. Actually, ‘Crazy’ Theory is a good name for it lol. :D



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:32 am

FWIW, the copies of Manalli’s handwriting that I have are 1st generation. What I sent Morf are copies of mine and I had them done at a copy place with good equipment. So I guess what he has are 2nd generation. The originals can be viewed if it gets to that point.

Thanks for that info Seagull. Even at second generation Trav’s work is compelling. The spacing of letters and words is soooo close to Zodiac spacing. Pretty incredible stuff.

And Trav … I hate to tell you … but I’m a female. :o


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
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Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:39 am

I think I have mentioned this before but in case I didn’t, when I first got the letters I contacted my guy at the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Department and told him what I had. The sheriff’s department did not know the letters existed and he asked that I send him copies of them which I did. So, copies of the letters are in the possession of at least one LE agency. I’m not so sure it’s the right one for the purpose of comparing handwriting but it’s a step in the right direction!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:04 am

FWIW, the copies of Manalli’s handwriting that I have are 1st generation. What I sent Morf are copies of mine and I had them done at a copy place with good equipment. So I guess what he has are 2nd generation. The originals can be viewed if it gets to that point.

Thanks for that info Seagull. Even at second generation Trav’s work is compelling. The spacing of letters and words is soooo close to Zodiac spacing. Pretty incredible stuff.

And Trav … I hate to tell you … but I’m a female. :o

I flipping thought that lol. As I wrote Sir I thought, bet you Patinky is female lol. Apologies :D



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:06 am

I think I have mentioned this before but in case I didn’t, when I first got the letters I contacted my guy at the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Department and told him what I had. The sheriff’s department did not know the letters existed and he asked that I send him copies of them which I did. So, copies of the letters are in the possession of at least one LE agency. I’m not so sure it’s the right one for the purpose of comparing handwriting but it’s a step in the right direction!

It is Deb and I do remember you mentioning it before.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:02 am

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One’s enough for me though.

And Morf’s right, this guy uses both and the same on the y’s – he uses looped and zodiac y’s. It’s not different people it’s one person in 5 minds.

OK, thanks for checking. In light of all the phrase and spelling matches that have been found I’d agree, not a deal killer, however it seems strange that he would change the basic structure of his usual K (making it 3 stroke) for the Z letters and meanwhile leave every other character a virtual match. So where do we (you guys actually, I’m an observer on this one) go from here to move this forward?

Actually Bents he did change other characters. He picked the easy ones too, if indeed that is the scenario we are looking at. he uses straight and 2 stroke y’s vs his usual curved 1 strokes, he introduced a new d and b as an alternative to the looped versions of both whilst still including the looped version and he uses a sharp angled z instead of the looser version which is more similar to his 2’s. There’s probably more but I mention those because I’ve always suspected that these were changes if indeed Zodiac had disguised his writing. Add to that mostly print with the odd hint of cursive in moments of carelessness.

Manalli is the opposite, he slips into rare moments of straight hand printing as opposed to his usual cursive, printing mix which flows and at first glance looks like it’s straight cursive but it isn’t. The Bates letters comps were most compiled from no more than a few words here and there in 36 pages of straight hand printing

If Manalli did indeed write the letters and was thinking about this the way I am then he took his own handwriting and from within the different styles contained in it created what appeared to be unconnected styles further disguised by new variations on some characters. It’s an interesting thing to come across handwriting that resembles Zodiac’s, it gets more interesting when construction of certain characters match but when it comes to a writing style that has all of the styles used as part of it’s make up, and that those styles can be separated out into alphabets well, I don’t even have a word to describe that.

I’m not trying to sell this BTW I’m just describing my own thoughts about the handwriting irregardless of the connections to the Zodiac case.

I’ve been considering the aspects of this writing and it’s own possible story. The style mixes, sometimes as many as 3 or 4 in one page and then pages of the same style. The many alternating character styles, sometimes within the same word…..

…. This is going to be my moment of madness and it’s not strictly to do with my previously mentioned/hinted at theory (it’s got it’s own madness). I was, whilst working on this, wondering what he thought about his own writing. Was he or did he consciously ponder his own writing in this way, did he reflect, even for a moment on this crazy mix, 2 different g’s in the one word for example.

That’s when this popped into my head. Was it deliberate? Is there a code hidden in this?

If memory serves me there is a code/cipher that employs something like this method of using variations on certain characters in such a way as to carry a message. I also think it’s something probably like a one time pad where the recipient needs the key because the words used are too bespoke to be decoded but maybe not?

How mental would that be if someone was hiding codes in their own letters to people in everyday life and that such a person just happens to be a POI in the Zodiac case. I mention no names even though it’s obvious but even as a thought I thought that was cute and liked it. It seems like a very Zodiac to do.

My gut feeling is it’s not but it was too cool a thought to not mention it, if I do say so myself lol

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:55 am

So supposing some LE department analyzes the writings and determines that Manalli wrote the Z letters… then when will this information be made public? Maybe never, or maybe not for a VERY long time. Wouldn’t they want to keep the info secret in order to pursue the Team Zodiac theory or try to connect Manalli to other crimes?

Would it really be for the best to keep the info from the public? Possibly, but then I think of it this way: who solved the 408? Not the FBI, but a school teacher. And who’s responsible for "discovering" this person of very much interest? Seagull, Morf and Trav. And oh yeah, a little help from RGS! So wouldn’t it be better if the Z community could be part of the investigation, supposing it’s determined that Fred’s the guy?

I don’t wanna wait 10 or 20 years to know if LE analysts think FM is good for the letters. Surely there must be some handwriting expert/document examiner, who’s highly competent and whose work is respected, that would be very happy to look at the Manalli letters and give his or her opinion??? For free. To us. And reasonably quickly. If Seagull gives the letters to LE, I’m seriously afraid she’ll never get them back. And that LE will tell us nothing.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:36 am

JEM,

Here’s the issue, many law enforcement agencies in CA are strapped for cash,short handed,etc. Finding time, funds,etc to do writing examinations of ANY zodiac suspects may take some time. Personally, although I think Manalli’s writing is the closest to Zodiac’s that I have seen, nothing will beat a set of prints. Thats another problem, police as far as I can tell have not been able to find any prints for Manalli. My gut tells me that there ARE some out there some place. He taught at a prison,and I would think he would have to have some clearance to get in and out of there,including prints. He was in the military,so I think they would have prints,but unless you are law enforcement, you will not be able to get these.

All we can do is keep digging,I think there is more out there to find.

There are clues in Manalli’s writing,similarities to zodiac, discussion of violence,he had issues with his wife,divorced, etc..he is a suspect in another murder,the timeline of when Zodiac stopped writing coincides with Manalli’s death. And then there’s that crazy personal AD a couple days after Manalli died that read "zodiac your partner is in deep real estate". Maybe thats just a coincidence,but its a hell of a coincidence. Not for one second saying that I agree with Horan at all,but ‘IF’ there was ever a zodiac letter hoaxer,I think it could certainly be Manalli. The Bates letters also look like Manalli,but we have uncovered ZERO proving that he was ever in Riverside,despite Graysmith’s account that he was. Lastly, although Santa Rosa & Vallejo are not that far apart, we have uncovered ZERO that directly connects him to Vallejo either.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:07 pm

So supposing some LE department analyzes the writings and determines that Manalli wrote the Z letters… then when will this information be made public? Maybe never, or maybe not for a VERY long time. Wouldn’t they want to keep the info secret in order to pursue the Team Zodiac theory or try to connect Manalli to other crimes?

If LE can conclusively match Manalli to the letters, the best thing they can and should do is announce him to the world as being complicit in the murders. It would give people some degree of closure.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:47 pm

So supposing some LE department analyzes the writings and determines that Manalli wrote the Z letters… then when will this information be made public? Maybe never, or maybe not for a VERY long time. Wouldn’t they want to keep the info secret in order to pursue the Team Zodiac theory or try to connect Manalli to other crimes?

If LE can conclusively match Manalli to the letters, the best thing they can and should do is announce him to the world as being complicit in the murders. It would give people some degree of closure.

I agree Nacht. As long as what they are analyzing is prints or DNA.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:50 pm

Some degree of closure would be wonderful.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:40 am

Something has just occurred to me whilst writing this diatribe of my skills over on the ‘Hartnell’s car door thread’.

It involves alphabets and in-fact alphabet creation.

One thing I’m now realizing is that when compiling the alphabets of both Zodiac and Manalli for the different letters the thing that I hadn’t thought until now is how relatively easy it was. By that I mean that all I had to do was lift individual letters for each one and put them together. This is not always a straight forward thing because not everyone’s handwriting is suitable for straight font use as a full alphabet. A lot of the time certain characters can be disproportionate and have to be tweaked to work visually with their own alphabet.

Both Zodiac’s and Manallis alphabets required either none or very little of this which means that is another signature hidden in the writing to be in mind off for future comps against POI’s writing. Does it make an easy alphabet because Zodiac’s certainly does.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:26 am

Regarding my crazy hidden code theory.

This is one of the things that got me wondering. Why change the word ‘good’ for the word ‘good’ only to change the form of the g? There’s also the possibility that he first spelled it gaad but I’m not sure if that’s what I’m seeing, the g though has definitely been altered directly after.

EDIT: It’s not gaad, that’s a visual illusion created by a mix of the page line and the overscore deletion. So it is just the g that was changed.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:39 am

Thanks Morf. You’re saying LE needs the letters because only they can access Manalli’s records and compare the prints. That makes sense and if we have to wait, I guess that’s just how it will be. Just hope they will tell us yay or nay soon.

But if they don’t, I won’t care too much now. Because it turns out we actually do have an experienced professional at this website who’s been hard at work analyzing the letters. His "diatribe of skills" is good enough for me!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:38 am

:oops: Aww thanks Jem,

21 years experience and counting for the record and also Smithy has even more in sed field. So there’s two of us, Lord have mercy lol.



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:44 am

Good work! Just another curious zynchronicity but Z describing "man" as the most dangerous "animal" made me think about MANalli being almost an anagram of ANIMAL (just an extra L).

Who knows, Z said his ID was in that cipher – perhaps he was using a play on words with ANIMAL and putting MAN before it as a clew? ;)



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:48 am

Thought the same myself Quagmire – couldn’t prove it though but certainly interesting, I hadn’t considered it far enough beyond ‘man’, nice thinking.



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:59 am

Yes, wonder if dangerous animal = dangerous manalli? Just the type of weird cryptic thing that Z would hide in his letters/ciphers IMO. I wonder if the misspelling of words like "dangerous" in the solution was intentional as they anagram to something?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:10 am

Just to add,

My own skill set and experience in the field of graphic design and manual artwork techniques and font creation is why I have the Utmost Respect for Sherwood Morril’s determination’s in this case.

Despite my own abilities I still had to see what Sherwood saw and that has taken a couple of years extra experience of looking at Zodiac letters. I can now say that Sherwood wasn’t just a document examiner he was document examiner with an artists and a designers eye for detail and form. That’s why he was what he was.

I can now see the connections he seen between the letters he authenticated. He was the Sherlock Holmes of handwriting despite how his career ended and how he was portrayed/betrayed by the Fincher movie.

I know excellence when I see it because I’ve worked with it (I’m just a pretty good) and Sherwood was excellent. It’s actually been a pleasure seeing what he saw and understanding it over these past 2 years or so.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:16 am

Just to add,

My own skill set and experience in the field of graphic design and manual artwork techniques and font creation is why I have the Utmost Respect for Sherwood Morril’s determination’s in this case.

Despite my own abilities I still had to see what Sherwood saw and that has taken a couple of years extra experience of looking at Zodiac letters. I can now say that Sherwood wasn’t just a document examiner he was document examiner with an artists and a designers eye for detail and form. That’s why he was what he was.

I can now see the connections he seen between the letters he authenticated. He was the Sherlock Holmes of handwriting despite how his career ended and how he was portrayed/betrayed by the Fincher movie.

I know excellence when I see it because I’ve worked with it (I’m just a pretty good) and Sherwood was excellent. It’s actually been a pleasure seeing what he saw and understanding it over these past 2 years or so.

You’re certainly right TRAV, your skills are noted & appreciated. I agree with you and I also think Sherwood was great at his job,and his verification of the Bates case was of major importance,of course made possible by Paul Avery & Phil Sins.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:32 am

Regarding my crazy hidden code theory.

This is one of the things that got me wondering. Why change the word ‘good’ for the word ‘good’ only to change the form of the g? There’s also the possibility that he first spelled it gaad but I’m not sure if that’s what I’m seeing, the g though has definitely been altered directly after.

EDIT: It’s not gaad, that’s a visual illusion created by a mix of the page line and the overscore deletion. So it is just the g that was changed.

I think I have a simple explanation for this one…

It looks like Manalli had originally written "take(s) care", but then decided he wanted to emphasize "care". He then tried changing "care" to "good" only to cross it out and rewrite the word "good" cleanly.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:42 am

Interesting Tim.

I say that, not only because it’s really nice thinking, but also because if he started to write the word care and only got as far as starting the c, later to be altered or incorporated to make a g then the shape of the c, then dictating the shape of the g means that c that is an even closer match to the form and shape of the Zodiac’s c’s.

I did warn you, you can’t poke around with this writing, it’s dangerous lol. Please keep poking, really :D



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:15 am

Regarding my crazy hidden code theory.

This is one of the things that got me wondering. Why change the word ‘good’ for the word ‘good’ only to change the form of the g? There’s also the possibility that he first spelled it gaad but I’m not sure if that’s what I’m seeing, the g though has definitely been altered directly after.

EDIT: It’s not gaad, that’s a visual illusion created by a mix of the page line and the overscore deletion. So it is just the g that was changed.

I think I have a simple explanation for this one…

It looks like Manalli had originally written "take(s) care", but then decided he wanted to emphasize "care". He then tried changing "care" to "good" only to cross it out and rewrite the word "good" cleanly.

BIGZ, this certainly makes sense, but on the other hand,he still did cross out a word,then wrote the same word anyway.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:25 am

Yeah, I know. But with me, that’s not very unusual… my OCD kicks in and I tend to cross stuff out if it gets a little messy.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:36 pm

Manalli’s punctuation compared to Zodiac’s. Manalli’s is on the right and below.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:32 pm

Manalli’s punctuation compared to Zodiac’s. Manalli’s is on the right and below.

Something I hadnt noticed that both Manalli & Zodiac bend their exclamation points.



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:53 pm

Yeah, I know. But with me, that’s not very unusual… my OCD kicks in and I tend to cross stuff out if it gets a little messy.

Don’t you mean "my CDO" … bwahhhhh :flower:

On to being serious ….

The line below the "good" line–has it been rewritten (same word written over the original)? It looks like it is darker and I see artifacts? Overwriting? Bleed-through? My imagination?



patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Manalli’s punctuation compared to Zodiac’s. Manalli’s is on the right and below.

Something I hadnt noticed that both Manalli & Zodiac bend their exclamation points.

Are those question marks or exclamation points?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:29 pm

Manalli’s punctuation compared to Zodiac’s. Manalli’s is on the right and below.

Something I hadnt noticed that both Manalli & Zodiac bend their exclamation points.

Are those question marks or exclamation points?

First 3 are questions marks, last two are semi-colons.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:28 am

Here’s a nifty little habit I hadn’t spotted before. It’s shared by both Manalli and Zodiac but even on it’s own merit it’s something to be on the look out for with any POI’s writing.

Zodiac and Manalli both alternate between 2 styles of lowercase e. One has a follow through and one doesn’t and they both do it within words that have more than one and also words with just one so a word might end with a follow through e or a non follow through e.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:05 pm

Found this. Sonoma County Deeds. Donald L Emblen, remember that name from Manalli’s letters.

Did a quick search on found this right-up about his passing in 2009 by a former student.

Donald L. Emblen 1918-2009
I was saddened to learn this morning that Don Emblen, my first creative writing teacher, died on Friday April 24.

When I was compelled by a lack of resources to attend Santa Rosa Junior College for the first two years of my college education, I made the best of it by hanging out at Don’s office. In my whole career as a student, he was one of the two teachers who made the biggest impression on me.

We disagreed about almost everything, and I’m sure he found some of my opinions horrifying, but there was some overlap in our Weltanschauungen. He introduced me to one of his favorite poets, feeling sure that I would love him too. That was Robinson Jeffers, and he was certainly right about my reaction. He had carried Jeffers’ Tamar, Roan Stallion, and Other Poems with him throughout his Navy service in World War II.

More than probably anyone I know, Don followed his curiosity wherever it led. He got interested in Peter Mark Roget, father of the Thesaurus, and wrote the first biography of him. He got interested in new Swedish poets, learned Swedish, and translated a bunch of them. When he became interested in Japanese poetry, he taught himself Japanese, translated some more, and taught in Japan.

He claimed to have written over 4,000 poems, but he published none that I know of in conspicuous places. Often he printed them himself in his cluttered-but-neat garage workshop.

When he "retired" (people like him never retire!) he began publishing a newsletter called The Reader’s Rejoinder, consisting of letters written to him by his many friends about whatever they were reading. He completed exactly 250 issues, the last being issued posthumously and arriving here last week.

He was in the midst of rereading The Brothers Karamazov (Volkhonsky trans.) when death overtook him at age 90. His wife, Linda, was reading the Constance Garnett trans. at the same time, and when one of them got ahead of the other, he or she had some trouble not giving away what happened next in the story.

He will be missed by a great many people.

Another one from here: http://sonic.net/~art/DLE%20memoriam/DL … Sheaf.html

Don was an inspiration. He showed me by his example that writing, reading and talking about poetry were life-enhancing activities. I don’t think that there was a time when we visited and didn’t talk about poetry. I remember him as a poet of friendship and friends, and as a local poet who wrote poetry to make human connections and preserve community; he was a real community-builder. One of the main literary battles I fought was for him to be Sonoma County’s first poet laureate. ("I thought Don was "the quintessential Sonoma County poet.) His poems about this place are etched in my memory, as are his poems about aging and old age. I dedicated one of my poetry chapbooks to him, and he appreciated that. He began the book on the last page, at the back and proceeded to read backward, going from end to beginning, and so it was only when he finished the book that he discovered that I had dedicated the book to him. He did not always do things in predictable ways. He even did some things backward. In fact, as a printer with a letterpress it helped greatly that he could see and read words backward. Certainly, he always got to where he wanted to go, and he always finished what he started. Now that he’s gone, he seems as real and as much of a presence as he always was, and I can still hear the sounds of his printing presses in his shop on California Avenue.

Don wrote a wonderful poem in his last year that was heartening to come upon in the days after his death. It’s one of his back yard poems. Was there ever a better back yard poet? On California Avenue as well as in the Navy

OUR ONGOING AUDIENCE

My perception of Don pretty much matches those of friends who’ve testified here: frightened and put off at the beginning, soon overtaken by a growing love. Don’s many passions (especially for best words in best order), and irrepressible energy, taught us. He took my husband’s [Bob Duxbury] play scripts and my own novels and stories with great seriousness, eager to read and respond to new work; the day before he died he asked to read Bob’s newest play. When I gave him new books of my own, or books I thought he and other Rejoinder readers might enjoy, he mowed through them all with zeal, and wrote back thoughtful responses and critiques. We always felt – as it’s clear Don made most all his friends feel – as though we had a casual yet exclusive, ongoing audience with a kind of literary oracle. I remember giving him Joan Didion’s 1975 commencement address to UC Riverside students, in which she urged them to go out and live passionately in the world: "Not just to endure it, not just to suffer it, not just to pass through it, but to live in it. To look at it. To try to get the picture. . . . To make your own work and take pride in it. To seize the moment. . . ." Didion cited, as one reason, the notorious Andrew Marvell quote, "the grave’s a fine and private place / But none, I think, do there embrace." Don responded at once, with something close to vehemence, that that line in particular had always held special power for him. And of course, he’d lived as Didion had urged. And though his life was rich and long, I can’t not wish he hadn’t left us yet. I can still easily hear his voice on our answering machine – a question about language, or a title or phrase or name. Or the sack of plums or book deposited on our front porch, bound with a cheerful note in his small, neat writing. We’ll never stop hearing and seeing him in our hearts. We miss him badly.

:affraid:



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:25 pm

Here is that document referred to in your post-



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:25 pm

If you are saying that Emblen may have been involved with Manalli as a Z team,and he looked like the z sketch,he would have been over 50 years old during the z murders.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:27 pm

Thanks Seagull.

I’m not sure if this is him younger but he wrote the narrative for this video. Might be him?



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:41 pm

If you are saying that Emblen may have been involved with Manalli as a Z team,and he looked like the z sketch,he would have been over 50 years old during the z murders.

I’m not saying that yet but for the record he would have been 47 and he was pro-ported to look younger than he was. What I’m saying is that Manalli was in partnership with this guy. A guy who was by all accounts some kind of genius who could turn his hand to anything from learning Japanese, to fence building, mathematics, printing, was in the Navy (as what I wonder), who could read ,and was implied, write backwards and probably more. He also lived to pass on knowledge and may have had a connection to Riverside prior to 1975?

With all this knowledge and ability and a print shop it seems like a lot of zync all directly associated to Manalli.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:46 pm

Here’s his obit from the local newspaper. If he had anything to do with any crime, he sure fooled a hell of a lot of people as he was much beloved!



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:52 pm

If you are saying that Emblen may have been involved with Manalli as a Z team,and he looked like the z sketch,he would have been over 50 years old during the z murders.

I’m not saying that yet but for the record he would have been 47 and he was pro-ported to look younger than he was. What I’m saying is that Manalli was in partnership with this guy. A guy who was by all accounts some kind of genius who could turn his hand to anything from learning Japanese, to fence building, mathematics, printing, was in the Navy (as what I wonder), who could read ,and was implied, write backwards and probably more. He also lived to pass on knowledge and may have had a connection to Riverside prior to 1975?

With all this knowledge and ability and a print shop it seems like a lot of zync all directly associated to Manalli.

Donald L. Emblen 1918-2009

He would have been 51 during Stine attack. The Riverside connection is certainly interesting.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:21 pm

Donald L. Emblen 1918-2009

He would have been 51 during Stine attack. The Riverside connection is certainly interesting.

Exactly, which is why he was shuffling, hunched over down Jackson – he was having to carry Manalli in his coat.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:39 pm

Here’s the page I got the first article from.

Look at what one of Don’s former pupils was reading.

http://lesterhhunt.blogspot.co.uk/2011/ … -else.html



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:35 pm

And he even links the Groucho version! I told Morf about Lester Hunt sometime ago and he contacted him. Unfortuately Lester did not remember Manalli.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:56 pm

Here is that document referred to in your post-

Here is som info of interest on Fred Manalli his wife Suzanne J Carlson and Donald L Emblen:

Fred Manalli married Suzanne J Carlson in 1958, probably in Rockford, Illinois

FM and SM moved to California probably in 1959 or 1960 probably to San Francisco and later Santa Rosa.

There are divorce records of FM and SM in Sonoma in 1970 and San Francisco City in 1973

Donald L Emblen divorce his wife Betty J Mitchell in May 1971 in Sonoma

Then Donald L Emblen marry Fred Manalli’s x-wife Susanne J Carlson, Aug 25, 1985, the marrige record is from Minnesota.

Minnesota, Marriage Collection, 1958-2001
about Donald L Emblen
Name: Donald L Emblen
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1919
Age: 66
Spouse: Suzanne J Carlson
Gender: Female
Spouse Birth Date: abt 1934
Spouse Age: 51
Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1985
Filing Location (County): Cass
State: Minnesota

U.S. City Directories, 1821-1989 (Beta)
about Suzanne J Manalli
Name: Suzanne J Manalli
Gender: F (Female)
Residence Year: 1959
Residence Place: Rockford, Illinois
Spouse: Fredk S Manalli

Publication Title: Rockford, Illinois, City Directory, 1959

California Divorce Index, 1966-1984
about Frederic S Manalli
Name: Frederic S Manalli
Spouse Name: Suzanne J Carlson
Location: Sonoma
Date: Aug 1970
They married 1958

California Divorce Index, 1966-1984
about Fredric S Manalli
Name: Fredric S Manalli
Spouse Name: Suzanne J Carlson
Location: San Francisco City
Date: Dec 1973

U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1
about Suzanne J Carlson
Name: Suzanne J Carlson
Birth Date: 6 Mar 1934
Address: 160 California Ave, Santa Rosa, CA, 95405-4666 (1980)

U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1
about Suzanne Emblen
Name: Suzanne Emblen
Address: 160 California Ave, Santa Rosa, CA, 95405-4666 (1988)

U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1
about Donald L Emblen
Name: Donald L Emblen
Birth Date: 5 Oct 1918
Address: 160 California Ave, Santa Rosa, CA, 95405-4666 (1988)

U.S. Phone and Address Directories, 1993-2002
about Donald L Emblen
Name: Donald L Emblen
Address: 160 California Ave
City: Santa Rosa
State: California
Zip Code: 95405-4666
Phone Number: 707-544-4532
Residence Years: 1993 1994 1995

California Divorce Index, 1966-1984
about Donald L Emblen
Name: Donald L Emblen
Spouse Name: Betty J Mitchell
Location: Sonoma
Date: May 1971

Social Security Death Index
about Don Lewis Emblen
Name: Don Lewis Emblen
Last Residence: 95405 Santa Rosa, Sonoma, California, United States of America
Born: 5 Oct 1918
Died: 24 Apr 2009
State (Year) SSN issued: California (Before 1951)


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : August 29, 2013 5:52 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
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Topic starter
 



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:08 pm

This is the CV of Lester H Hunt:

http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hunt/VITA08.htm

CURRICULUM VITAE

LESTER H. HUNT

Address:

Department of Philosophy ����������������������� �����������

University of Wisconsin-Madison�������� �����������������������

Madison, WI� 53706������������ ����������������������� �����������

����������������������� ����������������������� ����������������������� ����������������������� �����������

Phones:

Office:� (608) 263-5956

Home:��� (608) 835-3525

Internet:

lhhunt@facstaff.wisc.edu

http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hunt/default.htm

Educational Record

B.A. – (Honors) University of California, Santa Barbara, 1968

M.A. – University of California, Santa Barbara, 1973

Ph.D.- University of California, Santa Barbara, 1976

PUBLICATIONS

Books:

1.����������� Nietzsche and the Origin of Virtue, New York and London:� Routledge, 1991.� 200 pp. +xxiii.�

2.����������� Character and Culture.� Lanham, Maryland: Rowman and Littlefield, 1997.� pp. pp. 302 + xiii.��

Articles:

�1.����������� "Generosity," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 12 no. 3, July 1975, pp. 235-244.

�2.����������� "Character and Thought," American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 15 no. 3, July 1978, pp. 177-186.

�3.����������� "Punishment, Revenge, and the Minimal Functions of the State," in Understanding Human Emotion, Vol. I of Bowling Green Studies in Applied Philosophy, 1979, pp. 79-88.

�4.����������� "Courage and Principle," Canadian Journal of Philosophy, vol. 10 no. 2, June 1980, pp. 281-293.

�5.������� "Some Advantages of Social Control:� An Individualist Defense," Public Choice, vol. 36 no. 2, 1981, (Public Choice is a journal of economics), pp. 3-16.

�6.������� "The Scarlet Letter:� Hawthorne’s Theory of Moral Sentiments," in Philosophy and Literature, vol. 8 no. 1, April 1984, pp. 75-88.

�7.������� "The Politics of Envy," Social Philosophy and Policy Occasional Papers Series, No. 2, 1983, pp. 1-16.

�8.������� "On Improving Mankind by Political Means," Reason Papers, no. 10, Spring 1985, pp. 61-75.

�9.����������� "Politics and Anti-Politics:� Nietzsche’s View of the State," History of Philosophy Quarterly, vol. 2 no. 2, October 1985, pp. 453-468.

10.����������� "Generosity and the Diversity of the Virtues," in The Virtues, ed by Robert������������ Kruschwitz and Robert Roberts, (Belmont:� Wadsworth, 1987), pp. 216-228. (This article includes revised portions of article #1, above.)

11.������ "The Eternal Recurrence and Nietzsche’s Conception of Virtue," in������������������������ International Studies in Philosophy, vol. 25 no. 2, pp. 3-11.

12.������ "An Argument Against a Legal Duty to Rescue," in the Journal of Social���������������� Philosophy,� vol. 25 no. 1, Spring 1995, pp. 15-37.

13������� "Why Democracy is an Enemy of Virtue" International Studies in Philosophy, vol. 30 no. 3,1998, pp. 13-21.

14.����������� �Flourishing Egoism,� in Social Philosophy and Policy, vol 16 no. 1 (Winter 1999), pp. 72-95.�

15.������ "The Liberal Basis of the Right to Bear Arms," written with Todd C. Hughes and originally published in Public Affairs Quarterly, vol. 14 no. 1, January 2000, pp. 1-25.

16.����������� �Epilogue: Is There an Issue Here?�� Contribution to a symposium in Criminal Justice Ethics, vol. 20 no. 1 (Winter-Spring 2001), pp. 40-45.

17.����������� �Philosopher-Novelist or Novelist-Philosopher,� in Is Virtue Only a Means to Happiness?� An Analysis of Virtue and Happiness in Ayn Rand�s Writings, number 4 in the monograph series Objectivist Studies, pp. 53-61.� Published by The Objectivist Center of Poughkeepsie, New York.

18.������ �Is Bad Conduct Always Wrong?� The Ethics of Environmental Effects,� is the lead essay in Tibor R. Machan, ed., The Commons — Its Tragedy and Other Follies (Stanford, California: The Hoover Institution Press, 2001), pp. 1-25.

19.����������� �Epilogue: What Good are Drugs Anyway?��� Contribution to a symposium in Criminal Justice Ethics, vol. 22 no. 1 (Winter-Spring 2003), pp. 40-45.

20.������ �Billy Budd: Melville�s Dilemma,� Philosophy and Literature, vol. 26 no. 2 (October 2002), pp. 273-295.

21.����������� �Sentiment and Sympathy,� Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism, Volume 62 Number 4 (Fall 2004).

22.������ �The Paradox of the Unknown Lover: A Reading of Letter from an Unknown Woman,� Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism, Volume 64 Number 1 Winter 2006).� This special issue of JAAC was also published as a paperback book by Blackwell Publishing, 2006.

23. "Thus Spake Howard Roark: Nietzschean Ideas in the Fountainhead," in Philosophy and Literature, vol. 30 no. 1 (April 2006), pp. 79-101.

24. "Martha Nussbaum on the Emotions," Ethics, vol. 116 No. 3 (April 2006), pp. 552-577.� A review-essay.

Chapter in Book

1. "Motion Pictures as a Philosophical Resource," in Philosophy of Film, ed. by Noel Carroll and Jinhee Choi.� Malden, Massachusetts:� Blackwell Publishing, 2006), pp. 397-405.�

Reviews:

1.����������� Nietzsche:� Imagery and Thought, edited by Malcolm Pasley, in Philosophy and Literature, vol. 3 no. 1, Spring 1979, pp. 126-127.

2.����������� Personal Destinies, by David L. Norton, in Metaphilosophy, vol. 11 nos. 3 & 4, July/October 1980, pp. 285-287.

3.����������� Courage, by Douglas Walton, in Ethics, vol. 9 no. 1, October 1987, pp. 172-173.

4.����������� Quandaries and Virtues, by Edmund L. Pincoffs, in The Philosophical Review, vol. 98 no. 2. April 1989, pp. 249-51.

5.����������� Human Goodness:� Generosity and Courage, by Elizabeth Pybus, in Ethics, vol. 103 no 3, April 1993, p. 607.

6.����������� Michael Tanner,� Nietzsche, Oxford University Press.� Ethics, vol 4 no. 4, July 1997, pp 772-737.�����������

7. Lawrence Lampert, Leo Strauss and Nietzsche, in Ethics, vol. 108 no. 2, January 1998, pp. 451-52.

8.�������� Roger Crisp, editor, How Should One Live?� Essays on the Virtues, in Ethics, April 1999.

9.����������� Frederick Appel, Nietzsche contra Democracy, inEthics.� Vol. 111 No. 1, October 2000, pp. 156-57.�

10.������ Tara Smith, Viable Values: A Study of the Root and Reward of Morality, in Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, vol. 2 no. 1, Fall 2000, pp. 105-15.� Title of review: �Flourishing Objectivism.�

11. Alan Gewirth, Self-Fulfillment., in Philosophical Review vol. 109 no. 4 (October 2000), pp. 589-592.

12.������ �What Art Does,� the lead article in a symposium on on What Art Is by Louis Torres and Michelle Kamhi.� In The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, vol. 2 no. 2 (Spring 2001), pp. 253-263.

13. ����������� Uneasy Virtue, by Julia Driver.� Ethics, vol. 114 no. 1 (Oct. 2003), pp. 167-170.

Discussion Notes:

1.����������� "Comments on `Nietzsche’s Oblique Promotion of Virtue,’ by Daniel Conway," in International Studies in Philosophy, vol. 22 no. 2, pp. 31-34.

2.����������� "Comments on Robert Welshon’s `Nietzsche’s Peculiar Virtues and the Health of the Soul," International Studies in Philosophy, vol. 24 no. 2, pp. 91-93

3. �Philosopher-Novelist or Novelist-Philosopher,� a comment on Neera Badhwar�s �Is Virtue Only a Means to Happiness?� In Is Virtue Only a Means to Happiness?� An Analysis of Virtue and Happiness in Ayn Rand�s Writings, number 4 in the monograph series Objectivist Studies, pp. 53-61.

Encyclopedia Articles:

1.����������� "Generosity," a 1,000 word article, plus annotated bibliography, for the Encyclopedia of Ethics, edited by Lawrence Becker (Garland Publishing: 1990).� Also in the second edition of this encyclopedia (New York: Routledge, 2001).�

2.����������� "Envy," a 1,000 word article, plus annotated bibliography, for the Encyclopedia of Ethics, edited by Lawrence Becker (Garland Publishing:� 1990).� Also in second edition (New York: Routledge, 2001).�

3.����������� "Ethics," for Worldbook Encyclopedia (1993).� Length:� 2,250 words.�

4.����������� "Envy," in the Blackwell Encyclopedic Dictionary of Business Ethics, edited by Patricia Werhane and Edward Freeman (Blackwell: 1997).� Length: 1,000 words.

Articles Reprinted:

1.�������� "Some Advantages of Social Control:� An Individualist Defense," in The Libertarian Reader, edited by Tibor R. Machan, (New York:� Rowman and Littlefield, 1981).� (Article #5, above.)

2.����������� "Improving Human Beings by Political Means," in The Main Debate:� Capitalism vs. Communism, ed. by Tibor R. Machan, (New York:� Random House, 1986).� (Article #8, above.)

3.����������� "Improving Human Beings by Political Means," in Ethics in Practice, ed. By Hugh LaFollette (Oxford: Blackwell�s, 2003).

4. "The Liberal Basis of the Right to Bear Arms," in Ethics in Practice, ed. By Hugh LaFollette (Oxford: Blackwell�s, 2003).

FORTHCOMING

Edited Books

Grade Inflation and Academic Standards, a book of essays, forthcoming from State University of New York Press.

Philosophy in the Twilight Zone, a book of essays co-edited with No�l Carroll, forthcoming from Blackwell Publishing.

Chapters in Books

1. �Why the State Needs a Justification,� Anarchism/Minarchism edited by Roderick Long and Tibor Machan, Ashgate 2008.

2. �Grading Teachers,� in Grade Inflation and Academic Standards (see �edited books,� above).

3. �Rod Serling, Creator of the Twilight Zone,� in Philosophy in the Twilight Zone (see �edited books,� above).

Encyclopedia Article

1.�������� �Jos� Ortega y Gasset,� article in the Cato Institutute�s forthcoming Encyclopedia of Libertarianism, ed. by Ronald Hamowy.� Article co-authored with Dar�o Fernandez

Morera.

Papers Presented Away from the University of Wisconsin (Unpublished Papers Only):

1.����������� "Comments on ‘The Rational Basis of Social Planning in Aristotle’," by Fred Miller, delivered at the conference on Reason, Values and Political Principle, at Pomona College 1977.

2.����������� "Comments on ‘Socrates’ Use of Leibniz’ Law’, by Michael Rohr," delivered at the fall 1978 meeting of the New Jersey Regional Philosophical Association.

3.����������� Remarks on Annette Baier’s ‘Hume on Nature, Culture, and Character’," delivered at the April 1981 meeting of the Washington Philosophy Club.

4.�������� "Adam Smith’s Account of the Cardinal Virtues," presented at the conference on the Theory of the Moral Sentiments, Huntington Library, San Marino, CA, September 1982.

5.����������� "Friendly Relations and the Basis of Character," delivered at the Eastern Division Meetings of the A.P.A., December 1987.

6.����������� "Comments on ‘Nietzsche’s Oblique Promotion of Virtue,’ by Daniel Conway," delivered at the Eastern Division Meetings of the A.P.A., December 1987.

7.�������� "The Ethics of Environmental Effects," delivered at the conference on Ethics, Politics, and Human Nature, Bowling Green State University, October, 1989.

8.�������� "Gifts," presented at a Bowling Green State University Philosophy Department Colloquium, January 1990.

9.�������� "The Social Foundations of Character," Bowling Green State University, May 1990.

10.����������� "Character and the Survival of Liberalism," at the conference on Individualism and Civilization, sponsored by the Institute for Objectivist Studies, Madison Wisconsin, July 1995.

11.������ �Why Democracy is an Enemy of Virtue,� at the Pacific Division Meetings of the American Philosophical Association, Seattle Washington, April 4, 1996.

12.����������� "Egoism and Virtue," at the Easter Division Meetings of the American ���� ����������� Philosophical Association, Atlanta Georgia, December 29.� Tara Smith commenting.

13.����������� �Flourishing Egoism,� at the Social Philosophy and Policy conference on human flourishing, La Jolla California, September 12 and 13, 1997.

14.����������� �Comments on �A Contextual Theory of Character Traits� by Cynthia Upton,� Central Division meetings (Minneapolis) of the American Philosophical Association, May 3-5, 2001.

15.����������� �Literature as Argument: A Simple Case,� at the American Society for Aesthetics annual meetings, Minneapolis, Minnesota, October 24-27, 2001.

16.����������� "Analogical Reasoning in the Law," University of Texas – Austin departmental colloquium.� April 30, 2004.

17,����������� Contribution to an �Author Meets Critics� panel on Tara Smith�s Ayn Rand�s Normative Ethics (Cambridge University Press, 2006), American Philosophical Association Meetings, Washington D. C., Dec. 29, 2006.

Sessions Chaired:

"Kant, Supererogation, and Sublimity," paper by Richard McCarty,

J. Michael Young commenting, at the Central Division Meetings of the American Philosophical Association, May 1987.

"Justice and Friendship," paper by Annette Baier, at the

Conference on the Personal Turn in Ethics, University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, May 1987.

Session of the Conference on Character and Morality, Radcliffe

College, April 1988 (Conference organizers:� Amelie O. Rorty and Owen Flannagan).

"Recasting Business Ethics," by Stephen R. C. Hicks, Jan Narveson commenting, at annual meeting of the Ayn Rand Society at the Eastern Division Meetings of the American Philosophical Association, December 1995.

�What�s Wrong with Rights?: A Response to Some Feminist Criticisms,� by Samantha Brennan, Tara Smith commenting.� The Central Division Meetings of the American Philosophical Association, April 26, 1997.

�Gun Control: Pro and Con,� a panel of four papers at the Eastern APA, December, 2001.� Speakers: Hugh LaFollette, Lance Stell, Samuel Wheeler, Cynthia Stark.

�Drug Legalization: Pro and Con,� a panel of four papers at the Eastern APA, December 29, 2002.� Speakers: Douglas Husak, George Sher, Peter de Marneffe, Dan Shapiro.

Conferences Directed:

Discussion leader for �Liberty and Responsibility in the Works of Henry David Thoreau,� a Liberty Fund Colloquium held at Concord, Massachusetts, June 22-25, 2000.�

Director and discussion leader for a �Liberty and Responsibility in Billy Budd,� a Liberty Fund Colloquium held at Newport, Rhode Island, May 8-11, 2001.

AWARDS AND HONORS

Grant from the Fund for the Improvement for Post-Secondary

Education (Department of Health, Education, and Welfare) for research into the teaching of logic and philosophical method, Spring 1978.

Fellow of the Center for Study of Public Choice, Virginia

Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg, Virginia, Summer 1979.

Fellow of The Reason Foundation Summer Research Seminars, Santa

Barbara, CA, Summer 1980.

Fellow of the Center for Study of Public Choice, Virginia

Polytechnic Institute and State University, Summer 1981.

Fellow of the Institute for Humane Studies Summer Research

Seminar, Menlo Park, CA, Summer 1982.

Graduate School Summer Research Appointment, University of

Minnesota, Summer 1983.

Research Fellow of the Earhart Foundation, Ann Arbor, MI, Summer

1984.

Research Fellow of the Institute for Humane Studies, Menlo Park,

CA, Summer 1985.

Graduate School Summer Research Grant, University of Wisconsin,

Summer 1986.

Graduate School Summer Research Grant, University of Wisconsin,

Summer 1988.

Fellow of the Social Philosophy and Policy Center, Bowling Green

State University, Bowling Green, Ohio, August 1989 to June 1990.

Graduate School Summer Research Grant, University of Wisconsin,

for Summer 1992.

University of Wisconsin Faculty Development Grant, for the Fall

Semester of 1993-94.

University of Wisconsin Sabbatical Leave, Spring 1999.

Vilas Fellowship, Summer 2000 and Summer 2001.

COURSES, SEMINARS AND TUTORIALS TAUGHT

Courses and Seminars

Courses:

Introduction to Philosophy, Ethics (including courses on Ethical Theory, History of Ethics, Metaethics, Contemporary Moral Issues, and Business Ethics), Political Philosophy, Nietzsche, Philosophy of the Social Sciences, Philosophy and Literature, Existentialism, Elementary Logic, History of Ideas:� The Renaissance, Philosophy of the Mind: The Emotions, Philosophy of Law, Philosophy of Economics, Liberalism and Its Critics, Philosophy and Film.

Seminars:

Morals by Agreement; Nietzsche; Aristotle’s Ethics; Virtue, Vice, and Character; Liberalism and Its Critics; Rights Moral and Legal;� Virtue and Self-Interest, Philosophy and Literature, Philosophy and Film.

ACADEMIC APPOINTMENTS

Visiting Scholar:� Social Philosophy and Policy Center, Bowling Green State University,

Bowling Green, OH� 1989-90.

Associate Professor:� University of Wisconsin, Madison, 1988-� .

Assistant Professor:� University of Wisconsin, Madison, 1984-88.

Assistant Professor:� University of Minnesota, Morris, 1981-84.

A.W. Mellon Scholar:� The Johns Hopkins University, 1979-81.

Assistant Professor:� Trenton State College, 1978-79.

Visiting Assistant Professor:� University of Pittsburgh, Spring 1978.

Visiting Assistant Professor:� Carnegie-Mellon University, 1977-78.

Visiting Assistant Professor:� Le Moyne College, Spring 1977.

SERVICE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN

Non Departmental Committees:

Search Committee for the Chair in Business Ethics, University of Wisconsin School of

Business (1992).

Western European Area Studies Steering Committee (1985-89).

Faculty Senate (1986-89, 1992-3, 1995-).

Equity and Diversity Resources Advisory Committee (1998- , Chair 1999-).

Committee on Committees (2000- ).

Co-Chair, Campus Climate Initiative Committee (2001).

Various search committees.�

Committee on Faculty Rights and Responsibilities (2005- ).

Departmental Committees:

Graduate Admissions Committee (2003-7 ).

David Weberman Mentor and Tenure Review Committees (1992-8).

Grievance Committee (1992-3).

Colloquium Committee (1992-3).

Steven Nadler Tenure Review Committee (1991-92).

Graduate Fellowships and Assistantships for Continuing Students (1990-91), Chair.

Review Committee for LaVerne Shelton (1990-91).

Faculty Advising Service, U.W. Madison (1988-89).

Lectures and Colloquia Committee, U.W. Madison (1987-89).

Faculty and Graduate Student Conference Committee (1986).

T.A. Evaluation Committee, U.W. Madison Philosophy Department (1985-87).

Foreign Language Committee, U.W. Madison Philosophy Department (1985-).

Fellowships Committee, U.W. Madison Philosophy Department (1985-86).

OTHER SERVICE:

Member, APA Committee on Law and Philosophy (2000-2004).



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:12 pm

More on Lester H Hunt:

http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hunt/

U.S. Public Records Index, Volume 1
about Lester H Hunt
Name: Lester H Hunt
Birth Date: 17 Oct 1946
Phone Number: 835-3525
[835-0360]
Address: 1330 Gilson St, Madison, WI, 53715-2122
[404 Jefferson St, Oregon, WI, 53575-1321 (1993)]
[341 W Evers Ave, Bowling Green, OH, 43402-1716 (1988)]

California Birth Index, 1905-1995
about Lester Henry Hunt
Name: Lester Henry Hunt
Birth Date: 17 Oct 1946
Gender: Male
Mother’s Maiden Name: Mitchell
Birth County: Los Angeles



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:58 pm

Thanks TF!! I did know that Don Emblem had been married three times. And I also knew that he and Manalli’s ex-wife had been married although I did not know where and when they married. I have her death certificate and Emblem is listed as her husband. She died of breast cancer in 1988 in Santa Rosa. She also taught at Santa Rosa Junior College, the death certificate says she taught for 20 years. She went by the name Sue Carlson after her divorce from Manalli and did not use the Emblen last name even after her marriage to Don.

There is a scholarship in her name at SRJC for ESL (English as a Second Language) students.

http://online.santarosa.edu/presentation/page/?21342



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:32 pm

Some interesting ZYNC regarding WWII submariner badges. The cross hair closest matches the "sonor operator" badges.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:23 am

I wonder if Emblen’s association with Manalli was one of the driving factors as well over the possible SRHM connection being hushed or at least not publicly pursued. He seemed to be a pretty impressive guy and by all accounts a fascinating and seminal tutor to a lot of people and for the college as whole and a great believer in community.

I can’t imagine it sitting too well with him if Manalli had been up to something and only discovering this possibility after Manalli’s passing. I don’t think that Don was involved in any kind of weird crime partnership with him but rather was possibly duped by him and mistook Manalli’s interest in the things he knew as a welcome desire to learn.

What interests me about this relationship is that possible angle. The opportunity to accrue skills and ideas from someone and then employ them into what was Zodiac. By all accounts Manalli strikes me, through his writing, as being that kind of sycophantic/sociopathic from the way he writes to Dan Curley. I can only imagine that he must have felt like a sponge that had hit paydirt with Don Emblen.

There’s that ad though. "Zodiac, your partner is in deep real estate" and they actually were in real estate as partners. Curiouser & curiouser.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:16 am

Seems like lwe may never get the answers we need since hardly anybody is fessing up to knowing Manalli.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:13 am

Trav, I’m not so sure that Emblen and Fred Manalli were actually real estate partners. That grant deed above is a little strange to me and seems like it’s really saying that Fred grants his permission for Suzanne and Emblen to be real estate partners. The Manalli’s filed for divorce twice, once in Sonoma County Aug. 1970, and again in San Francisco County in Dec. 1973. The grant deed is dated July 1973, maybe it was discovered at that time that the Manalli’s were not legally divorced hence the second filing for a divorce Dec. 1973?????

Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of real estate and divorce laws could weigh in, AK might understand the document a little better.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:28 am

Sloppy wording, but it looks like Manalli was a joint owner with this other guy but then transferred his share to his (ex)wife.



morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:35 am

Sloppy wording, but it looks like Manalli was a joint owner with this other guy but then transferred his share to his (ex)wife.

Pretty chummy considering Don was moving in on Fred’s wife.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:39 am

AK I went to the Sonoma County Recorders office and personally went through the records for the Manalli’s and Emblen. This was the only real estate document that had Fred Manalli’s name on it, I could not find evidence that Emblen and Manalli had purchased something together previously.

Here is the search page for the records-

http://www.sonoma-county.org/recorder/searching.asp



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:44 pm

What years was Manalli at University in Illinois studying under Dan Curley?

NVR mind was re-reading the thread and found it. Graduated in 57.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:09 pm

Probably between Fall 1953 until he graduated in Spring 1957. That covers four years of college. He was born in 1935 so would have been 18 when he graduated from high school in 1953 then attending college that Fall.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:20 pm

Thanks Deb,

Just spotted this in your post on the 1st page of this thread. Nothing to do with my previous question BTW.

Very similar to this.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:26 pm

This is the most unusual comparison in my opinion, between Zodiac & Manalli. Neither Z, or Manalli usually made their letter K’s like this. But it seems as if they both made an exception and did it at least onece, and they almost mirror each other as if they were specially designed. I call it the ‘special K’ comparison, because they are both really unusual. One has a curl on the top, and the other has the same exact curl on the bottom.

Just reading this whole thread again. I recommend anyone interested in this to do the same. I’m quite stunned by the similarities and I’d forgotten about half them so re-reading has been great.

I’m quoting Morf here because I wasn’t sure if anyone was seeing the mirror thing as I was. This is an example of exactly what I was seeing in Manalli’s writing and I must have missed it first time round.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:44 pm

You posted them here Morf :roll:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oma-county

there’s one more on the page following the above page!

Thanks!


He was at Durand HS in 61. He was Faculty Director

This is probably me loosing it but notice the connection between the word in Finnegan’s Wake and the second image in this post?

By me in the past

I’m looking at few things at once and I keep finding things because all these things seem to overlap. Another once from Finnegans Wake

A bone, a pebble, a ramskin; chip them,
chap them, cut them up allways;

taken in giving the saloot, band your hands going in, bind your heads coming out, and remoltked to
herselp in her serf’s alown, a weerpovy willowy dreevy drawly and the patter of
so familiars, farabroads and behomeans, as she shure sknows, boof for a booby,
boo:

Schottenly there was a hellfire club kicked out through the wasistas of
Thereswhere.

And the chicks picked their teeths and the dombkey he begay began. You can ask
your ass if he believes it.

And so like that former son of a kish who went up
and out to found his farmer’s ashes we come down home gently on our own
turnedabout asses to meet Margareen.

Hello! Tittit! Tell your title?

he plunged both of his newly anointed hands

Arise, Land-under-Wave!

Not true what chronicles is bringing his portemanteau priamed full potato wards.

Tip. And it is surely a lesser ignorance to write a word with every consonant too few than to add all too many. The end?
Say it with missiles then and thus arabesque the page. You have your cup of scalding Souchong, your taper’s waxen drop,
your cat’s paw, the clove or coffinnail you chewed or champed as you worded it, your lark in clear air. So why, pray, sign anything
as long as every word, letter, penstroke, paperspace is a perfect signature of its own?

tell that old frankay boyuk to bellows upthe tombucky in his tumtum argan and give us a gust of his gushy old. Goof!

Note
his sleek hair, so elegant, tableau vivant. He vows her to be his own honeylamb,
swears they will be papa pals, by Sam, and share good times way down west in a
guaranteed happy lovenest when May moon she shines and they twit twinkle all the
night, combing the comet’s tail up right and shooting popguns at the stars.

that royal pair in
their palace of quicken boughs hight The Goat ant Compasses (‘phone number
17:69, if you want to know 4)

Like pudging a spoon fist of sugans into a sotspot of choucolout. the
virtuoser prays, olorum What the D.V. would I to that for? That’s a goosey’s
ganswer you’re for giving me, he is told, what the Deva would you do that for? 1
Now, sknow royol road to Puddlin, take your mut for a first beginning, big to
bog, back to bach. Anny liffle mud which cometh out of Mam will doob, I guess.
A.I. Amnium instar. And to find a locus for an alp get a howlth on her bayrings
as a prisme O and for a second O unbox your compasses. I cain but are you able?
Amicably nod. Gu it! So let’s seth off betwain us. Prompty? Mux your pistany at
a point of the coastmap to be called a but pronounced olfa
. There’s the isle of
Mun, ah! O! Tis just. Bene! Now, whole in applepine odrer

I see now. We move in the beast circuls. Grimbarb and pancercrucer! You took
the words out of my mouth. A child’s dread for a dragon vicefather. Hillcloud
encompass us!

Bully, his Ballade Imaginaire which was to be dubbed Wine, Woman and Waterclocks, or How a
Guy Finks and Fawkes When He Is Going Batty, by Maistre Sheames de la Plume,
some most dreadful stuff in a murderous mirrorhand)



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:02 pm

Is this a simple typo from manalli for the word CHRISTMAS?

You can actually see that he corrected it, and then still misspelled it.

Yup started to write Chiri.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:06 pm

Manalli using one of Zodiac’s favorite words, SHALL