morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:09 pm

Somehow, some way, Manalli found himself mentioned in a book about the Zodiac. Somehow, some way, he was a POI in another bay area case(s). His writing shows many similarities in formation, spacing, etc to Zodiac’s. Supposedly Manalli was ruled out of the Z case via prints as I recall. If thats true, then that’s great. But is it true? Graysmith wrote that Manalli taught in the Riverside area. That sounds powerful on the surface, but where did Graysmith get this from, and is it true? I think Seagull is of the opinion that Manalli may make a good suspect in another bay area case(s), and that he likely was not Zodiac. I am not sure if Seagull feels any different about Manalli after the writing samples, but I would like to hear her overall opinion of Manalli as a Z suspect and as a suspect in any other Bay area cases. I still think it is interesting that Manalli wrote a story called PARADISE, even if it is another Zyncronicty.

One thing fits,he died in 1976, and there was never another confirmed Z letter after 74. Personally, I dont have any reason to want Manalli to be Zodiac, I still have a couple fave suspects of my own, but the writing comparisons are jumping out at me. And one thing I wanted to mention was that the writing comparisons we have seen of Manalli’s are in ink pen vs. Zodiac’s which are in felt tip, and I think that might change Zodiac’s true writing just enough. If he wrote all of his letters in ink pen, perhaps they would be more of a match to the samples we see from Manalli. By the way, somebody posted earlier in this thread that Fouke stated that Zodiac may have been about 6ft2. Anybody have this in writing anyplace?

patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 pm

Not that my opinion matters here but I am just not seeing connections between the two writings.

I also don’t see a resemblance of the composite to the class photo of Manalli. The composite is very well done so I’m assuming it is at least partially accurate.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:16 pm

Not that my opinion matters here but I am just not seeing connections between the two writings.

I also don’t see a resemblance of the composite to the class photo of Manalli. The composite is very well done so I’m assuming it is at least partially accurate.

The only pic we see of him is from 1957,12 years before the Z sketch and with no glasses. Not a real good pic to use for comparison purposes, but in just looking at the chin, jaw, & lips, I see some similarity. I dfor one would like to know what Manalli looked like in 69, and if he ever wore glasses around that time.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:19 pm

The only reason Manalli found his way into Graysmith’s Zodiac books was because Graysmith wanted him to be Allen’s accomplice. That being said, I seriously doubt Manalli was ever investigated as a Zodiac suspect, much less cleared. Santa Rosa? Yes. But Zodiac? Nope, not unless I see evidence that they ran his prints.

It was me who posted the six-foot-two thing, morf. Got it from Jake’s article; his source is Mel Nicolai of the DOJ:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ac/14.html

I just realized that Manalli could potentially resemble the Napa composite.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:22 pm

The only reason Manalli found his way into Graysmith’s Zodiac books was because Graysmith wanted him to be Allen’s accomplice. That being said, I seriously doubt Manalli was ever investigated as a Zodiac suspect, much less cleared. Santa Rosa? Yes. But Zodiac? Nope, not unless I see evidence that they ran his prints.

It was me who posted the six-foot-two thing, morf. Got it from Jake’s article; his source is Mel Nicolai of the DOJ:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ac/14.html

I just realized that Manalli could potentially resemble the Napa composite.

Thanks for that.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:28 pm

Not that my opinion matters here but I am just not seeing connections between the two writings.

I also don’t see a resemblance of the composite to the class photo of Manalli. The composite is very well done so I’m assuming it is at least partially accurate.

The only pic we see of him is from 1957,12 years before the Z sketch and with no glasses. Not a real good pic to use for comparison purposes, but in just looking at the chin, jaw, & lips, I see some similarity. I dfor one would like to know what Manalli looked like in 69, and if he ever wore glasses around that time.

Somebody that wishes to remain nameless sent me this pic(as a joke?? or serious??)and asked if Manalli could be the mystery guy seen with Darlene. At first I simply chuckled,but the mystery guy does have a similar chin/lips to both the Z sketch & to Manalli. Still in all, I would guess NO about the mystery guy being Manalli. I am trying to picture him with longer hair & glasses,but his eyebrows look bushier. Yeah, I gotta say no way. in my opinion.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:38 pm

Just to add this as I’ve just found it.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:37 pm

I think it would be wise not to limit our investigation of Manalli to handwriting analysis alone. What else can we dig up on this guy to tie him to the Zodiac murders?

Totally agree and I’m worn out finding similarities, which ultimately might turn out to be just that and nothing more.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:03 pm

Ummm me again.

So I noticed this guy used a James Joyce quote in his typed material as a reference I think to his own potential mental state.

Here is the line.

End here. Us then. Finn, again! Take. Bussoftlhee, mememormee! Till thousandsthee. Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs. (628.13 to 3.3)

It’s from Finnegan’s Wake. Here’s some interesting facts about how that was written.

Language and style

""riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs."—
The opening line of Finnegans Wake, which continues from the book’s unfinished closing line[168]"

Joyce invented a unique polyglot-language or idioglossia solely for the purpose of this work. This language is composed of composite words from some sixty to seventy world languages,[169] combined to form puns, or portmanteau words and phrases intended to convey several layers of meaning at once.

Sound like familiar behaviour to anyone? Seeing all those doubles caught my attention I had a look and I knew I’d find it. And I did.

"the chrism for the christmass" from Finnegan’s Wake.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:09 pm

So CHRISTMASS is derived from Joyce’s work?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Would seem to be plausible source. Whether there are other printed uses of it I couldn’t say but since this guy’s own words led me to joyce and there it was. There’s also the switching of the i and the e in the Excorcist letter that seems to follow this Joyce method employed for Finnegan’s Wake.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:01 pm

The James Joyce Finnegan’s Wake deal is interesting in itself. Whether or not Manalli is the Zodiac it does sound like the use of this polyglot-language in Joyce’s work may have influenced Zodiac. You have made a very good connection, Traveller!

I do think that Zodiac was smarter than average, well read and exposed to the arts but still had a feral streak in him.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:24 pm

Just to add this as I’ve just found it.

Another good find. Very odd spacing, I would think only a small portion of the population would write this word in this fashion, Manalli & Z have yet another thing in common.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:31 pm

The James Joyce Finnegan’s Wake deal is interesting in itself. Whether or not Manalli is the Zodiac it does sound like the use of this polyglot-language in Joyce’s work may have influenced Zodiac. You have made a very good connection, Traveller!

I do think that Zodiac was smarter than average, well read and exposed to the arts but still had a feral streak in him.

Zodiac was pretty fond of the word ‘SHALL‘. Finnegan’s wake uses that word 140 times by my count.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:52 pm

A possible message from Zodiac, found floating in a bottle, was dated FEB 2…Joyce’s Birthday…
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … n-a-bottle

And check this out:
"Finnegans Wake is based on the structure of the zodiac, the zodiac signs being derived from the nature of numbers and a corresponding geometric sequence"
here- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Finnegans-Wake/

More on Joyce:
http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/joyc … ities.html

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:55 pm

Some more from Finnegan’s Wake.

"took up a jiminy and all the lilipath ways to Woeman’s"

leaden be light, lather be dry and it be drownd

Six thirteens at Blanche de Blanche’s of 3 Behind Street and 2 Turnagain Lane. Awabeg is my callby, Magnus here’s my Max,
Wonder One’s my cipher and Seven Sisters is my nighbrood

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:22 pm

James Joyce also wrote something called..’Ulysses’.

Here is an excerpt:
"On its co-operative dial glow the twelve signs of the zodiac"

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:38 pm

Some more from Finnegan’s Wake.

"took up a jiminy and all the lilipath ways to Woeman’s"

leaden be light, lather be dry and it be drownd

Six thirteens at Blanche de Blanche’s of 3 Behind Street and 2 Turnagain Lane. Awabeg is my callby, Magnus here’s my Max,
Wonder One’s my cipher and Seven Sisters is my nighbrood

WOW that’s good stuff !

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:39 pm

Nice I was wondering about his other works. Someone might want to check out Antonin Artaud too as Mananlli quotes him as well. Seems to be an off the wall poet type with occult interests.

Here’s the quote. Manalli said it made him cry and he might hang it on his wall. So I guess he was quite taken by it lol.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:47 pm

More from Finnegans Wake

for Jaun, by the way, was by the way of becoming

O, by the way, yes,another thing occurs to me.

(Correspondents, by the way, will keep on asking me what is the correct garnish to serve drisheens with. Tansy Sauce. Enough)

plain English for a married lady misled heaps by the way,

very pure nondescript, by the way, sometimes a palmtailed otter

Bushmillah ! Do you think for a moment? Yes, by the way. How very necessarily true! Give me fair play. When?

EDIT: more

just as every hazzy hates to having a hazbane in her noze.

was billowing across the wide expanse of our greatest park (note – there’s 3 other instances of the word billow – nothing for billowy). There are several instances of willowy though.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:35 am

The James Joyce Finnegan’s Wake deal is interesting in itself. Whether or not Manalli is the Zodiac it does sound like the use of this polyglot-language in Joyce’s work may have influenced Zodiac. You have made a very good connection, Traveller!

I do think that Zodiac was smarter than average, well read and exposed to the arts but still had a feral streak in him.

I agree. Even if nothing else comes of it regarding Manalli, it’s rewarding to stumble on little things like this as far as Zodiac himself is concerned. Another little avenue of exploration for answers.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:58 am

And check this out:
"Finnegans Wake is based on the structure of the zodiac, the zodiac signs being derived from the nature of numbers and a corresponding geometric sequence"

l

:affraid: Wow, I only just read that. Nice find.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:38 am

More cipher connections this time.

The Tragic Story of J.F. Byrne

One of the classic true stories in the history of cryptographic invention is that of J. F. Byrne.

Mr. Byrne was a close friend and fellow student (at Dublin) of James Joyce. In his work "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" Joyce modeled his character "Cranley" after Byrne.

In 1918 Byrne devised a code system that he thought amazingly simple and yet unbreakable. The "machine" used to produce his cipher (which he called his "Chaocipher") required nothing more than a cigar box and a few odds and ends.

In writing about his invention, Byrne states:

"When I first set out to discover a system for concocting an indecipherable cipher, I had it clearly in mind that such a system would and should be universally available, I envisioned, for instance, the utilization of my method and machine by business men for business communications, and by brotherhoods and social and religious institutions. I believe that my method and machine would be an invaluable asset to big religions institutions, as for example the Catholic Church with its world-wide ramifications. I had, and still have in mind, the universal use of my machine and method by husband, wife, or lover. My machine would be on hire, as typewriter machines now are, in hotels, steamships, and, maybe even on trains and airlines, available for anyone anywhere and at any time. And I believe, too, the time will come—and come soon—when my system will be used in the publication of pamphlets and books written in cipher with will be unreadable except by those who are specially initiated."

Unfortunately, no one of importance took his machine seriously. He demonstrated it to the head cryptanalysts of the US Signal Corps, but was rejected.

His system was also rejected by the State Department, the Department of the Navy, and AT&T.

Byrne did not, however, give up. He wrote and published a small booklet in which he enciphered known texts in his Chaocipher, and defied the world to break it. Later Byrne published his autobiography, in which he included a lengthy message in his Chaocipher. He offered to pay $5000 to anyone who could correctly break his cipher. He sent copies to the American Cryptogram Association, the New York Cipher Society, and to Norbert Wiener (father of cybernetics), and to other believers in the capabilities of the electronic calculating machines.

Unfortunately, no one ever claimed the prize, and Byrne died a few years later, taking his secret to the grave.

If an autobiography detailing the author’s memories of James Joyce seems like a strange place to find an uncracked cipher, that’s because it is. J.F. Byrne inserted his cryptosystem challenge into the book “Silent Years”, offering $5,000 to whoever solved it. At least three people know how Byrne’s Chaocipher – a machine small enough to fit into a cigar box used to encrypt the message – actually works, but no one has ever solved the code.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:59 am

This has been solved BTW since 2010.

In May 2010 the Byrne family donated all Chaocipher-related papers and artifacts[3] to the National Cryptologic Museum in Ft. Meade, Maryland, USA. This led to the disclosure of the Chaocipher algorithm.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaocipher

Here’s a detailed PDF of how it works.

http://www.mountainvistasoft.com/chaoci … orithm.pdf

and some more – whole site this time.

http://www.mountainvistasoft.com/chaocipher/

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:30 am

Interesting stuff!

Sound like familiar behaviour to anyone? Seeing all those doubles caught my attention I had a look and I knew I’d find it. And I did.

"the chrism for the christmass" from Finnegan’s Wake.

I’ve been doing some corpus-oriented experiments recently (processing large collections of text) and, discounting all the spellings of "Christmas" as "Christmasse" (a common, archaic variation), here are the results of searching about 30,000 books for text that includes "Christmass":

Title: John Smith, U.S.A. (1905)
Author: Eugene Field
12696.txt: That was vouchsafed that Christmass tide

Title: Robert Kerr’s General History and Collection of Voyages and Travels, Volume 18
Historical Sketch of the Progress of Discovery, Navigation, and
Commerce, from the Earliest Records to the Beginning of the Nineteenth
Century, By William Stevenson (1824)
Author: William Stevenson
13606-8.txt:Christmass Harbour, productions and animals, xv. 241.

Title: Curiosities of Literature, Vol. II (of 3)
Edited, With Memoir And Notes, By His Son, The Earl Of Beaconsfield
Author: Isaac Disraeli
16350-0.txt:Amidst "the grand Christmass," a personage of no small importance was

Title: Col fuoco non si scherza (1901)
Author: Emilio De Marchi
19059-8.txt:bei Christmass illustrati che uscissero a Londra: e cos? tra una

Title: A Righte Merrie Christmasse
The Story of Christ-Tide (1894)
Author: John Ashton
19979-8.txt:"The Queen intendeth to make a mask this Christmass, to which my lady
19979-8.txt:this Christmass."
19979-8.txt:for disport of Christmass to the people, was torne up and cast down by
19979-8.txt:"The Cupboard of Plate is to remain in the Hall on _Christmass_ day,
19979-8.txt:_Christmass_ day, and other days, as, afterwards, is shewed: touching
19979-8.txt:_grand Christmass_, a solempn consultation was held at their
19979-8.txt:_Christmass_ day.
19979-8.txt:Christmass_, then the two youngest Butlers must light two Torches, and
19979-8.txt:Supper, during the twelve days of Christmass. The antientest Master of
19979-8.txt:[Sidenote: _Christmass day._]
19979-8.txt:"At Dinner, the Butler appointed for the _grand Christmass_, is to see
19979-8.txt:to be observed in all things, during the time of Christmass. The like
19979-8.txt:"The Butler appointed for Christmass is to see the Tables covered, and
19979-8.txt:Christmass day, both the first and second Course to the highest
19979-8.txt:on Christmass Eve.
19979-8.txt:_Christmass_ makes a famous Pye, which they call _Christmass_ Pye: It

Title: Christmas: Its Origin and Associations
Together with Its Historical Events and Festive Celebrations During Nineteen Centuries (1902)
Author: William Francis Dawson
22042-8.txt:Christmass, Christmes. Christmas has also been called _No?l_ or
22042-8.txt:on "Christmass-daye," at this period, are referred to in the
22042-8.txt:And the play was performed at this "Grand Christmass" kept by the

The full quote there is interesting:

"Christmas" (pronounced Kris’mas) signifies "Christ’s Mass," meaning
the festival of the Nativity of Christ, and the word has been
variously spelt at different periods. The following are obsolete forms
of it found in old English writings: Crystmasse, Cristmes, Cristmas,
Crestenmes, Crestenmas, Cristemes, Cristynmes, Crismas, Kyrsomas,
Xtemas, Cristesmesse, Cristemasse, Crystenmas, Crystynmas, Chrystmas,
Chrystemes, Chrystemasse, Chrystymesse, Cristenmas, Christenmas,
Christmass, Christmes.

Title: The Sundering Flood (1914)
Author: William Morris
25547.txt:hear the Christmass in the church of Allhallows, which had been

Title: A Little Book of Profitable Tales (1901)
Author: Eugene Field
8abpt10.txt:+THE DIVELL’S CHRISTMASS+

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:41 am

Excellent stuff Dave,

I had seen the spelling ‘Cristmasse’ on my brief nosying but those others are good solid finds. Even more references…yay lol.

EDIT: a nice little visual of the byrne cipher construction thingy (wheel)

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/cs48 … haocipher/

EDIT: My brain’s catching up I think. So does your research suggest a reasonably low (so far) to read that word in. Also looking at the Quote you highlighted, y and i or i and y are/were reasonably interchangeable. As in Friday or Fryday.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:32 pm

Ok I took a look at the car door again and intended to match letter for letter but noticed this by accident. I’ve included the Zodiac f vs Manalli’s f as well cause I like it lol.

The thing I noticed and have tried to show here is once again how a random piece of Manalli’s text can be overlaid on zodiac stuff and the formas, spacing and angles match. I’ve picked the word the and copied and pasted it onto the car door at 20%. Look carefully at how it transects the zodiacs writing and matches up with is in angles and curves that do cross, sometimes a few times per letter or number. Also how the letters of the word the line up with subsequent letters, numbers or line up with other lines as well.

There’s loads more but I was running out of space and it was becoming hard to see lol.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:33 pm

I heard from NAPA today, and was surprised that they knew of Manalli right away. The Detective also told me that although he ‘may’ have been ruled out in some fashion as a Zodiac suspect, he couldnt verify that. He also said that he was aware of details about Manalli from "the Graysmith book, and the various message boards"…which is pretty cool since it shows that the investigators actually check out various Zodiac sites & forums.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:43 pm

Wow, that’s kind of exciting to hear! I hope they realize that Graysmith doesn’t always have things quite right.

Did you get a sense that they might have read the most recent stuff that Traveller has been posting? I think the James Joyce writings with the parallels to Zodiac writings is super.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:17 pm

Wow, that’s kind of exciting to hear! I hope they realize that Graysmith doesn’t always have things quite right.

Did you get a sense that they might have read the most recent stuff that Traveller has been posting? I think the James Joyce writings with the parallels to Zodiac writings is super.

We talked about the Joyce stuff, the same misspellings etc,and he even said that when Trav completed all of his side by side comparisons, he would be happy to look them over. So we will see where it goes. Even if Manalli isnt Z, he may have given us a big clue with the Joyce stuff.

The same misspellings from Z that we see in Joyce’s book, CHRISTMASS,WOEMAN,DROWNDING,etc,and the use of the word SHALL 140 times in the story, seems like Zodiac may have soaked it all up.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:34 am

Anyone like ALFRED E. NEUMAN? This would be a solution for the Unsolved 13 if you let N be both F as in Fred and M as in Manalli.

Morf wrote:
Even if Manalli isnt Z, he may have given us a big clue with the Joyce stuff.

Indeed, this is getting really, really interesting!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:46 am

More stuff. Some you have seen but there’s been more work done on them and some you haven’t seen. There are others to come.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:29 pm

I’m looking at few things at once and I keep finding things because all these things seem to overlap. Another once from Finnegans Wake

A bone, a pebble, a ramskin; chip them,
chap them, cut them up allways;

taken in giving the saloot, band your hands going in, bind your heads coming out, and remoltked to
herselp in her serf’s alown, a weerpovy willowy dreevy drawly and the patter of
so familiars, farabroads and behomeans, as she shure sknows, boof for a booby,
boo:

Schottenly there was a hellfire club kicked out through the wasistas of
Thereswhere.

And the chicks picked their teeths and the dombkey he begay began. You can ask
your ass if he believes it.

And so like that former son of a kish who went up
and out to found his farmer’s ashes we come down home gently on our own
turnedabout asses to meet Margareen.

Hello! Tittit! Tell your title?

he plunged both of his newly anointed hands

Arise, Land-under-Wave!

Not true what chronicles is bringing his portemanteau priamed full potato wards.

Tip. And it is surely a lesser ignorance to write a word with every consonant too few than to add all too many. The end?
Say it with missiles then and thus arabesque the page. You have your cup of scalding Souchong, your taper’s waxen drop,
your cat’s paw, the clove or coffinnail you chewed or champed as you worded it, your lark in clear air. So why, pray, sign anything
as long as every word, letter, penstroke, paperspace is a perfect signature of its own?

tell that old frankay boyuk to bellows upthe tombucky in his tumtum argan and give us a gust of his gushy old. Goof!

Note
his sleek hair, so elegant, tableau vivant. He vows her to be his own honeylamb,
swears they will be papa pals, by Sam, and share good times way down west in a
guaranteed happy lovenest when May moon she shines and they twit twinkle all the
night, combing the comet’s tail up right and shooting popguns at the stars.

that royal pair in
their palace of quicken boughs hight The Goat ant Compasses (‘phone number
17:69, if you want to know 4)

Like pudging a spoon fist of sugans into a sotspot of choucolout. the
virtuoser prays, olorum What the D.V. would I to that for? That’s a goosey’s
ganswer you’re for giving me, he is told, what the Deva would you do that for? 1
Now, sknow royol road to Puddlin, take your mut for a first beginning, big to
bog, back to bach. Anny liffle mud which cometh out of Mam will doob, I guess.
A.I. Amnium instar. And to find a locus for an alp get a howlth on her bayrings
as a prisme O and for a second O unbox your compasses. I cain but are you able?
Amicably nod. Gu it! So let’s seth off betwain us. Prompty? Mux your pistany at
a point of the coastmap to be called a but pronounced olfa. There’s the isle of
Mun, ah! O! Tis just. Bene! Now, whole in applepine odrer

I see now. We move in the beast circuls. Grimbarb and pancercrucer! You took
the words out of my mouth. A child’s dread for a dragon vicefather. Hillcloud
encompass us!

Bully, his Ballade Imaginaire which was to be dubbed Wine, Woman and Waterclocks, or How a
Guy Finks and Fawkes When He Is Going Batty, by Maistre Sheames de la Plume,
some most dreadful stuff in a murderous mirrorhand)

Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:40 pm

Trav, first off, this is really terrific work. One thing I would mention regarding some of the Finnegan’s Wake references is that Zodiac was quoting Gilbert and Sullivan’s Mikado rather than using those words himself. Of course, the others that are mirrored in Finnegan’s Wake are Zodiac’s own usage – like ‘allways’,

I think possibly the whole portmanteau idea really appealed to Z for some reason. Have you come across any other literature that indicates the same? Double meaning as well which is possible why the interest in SLA as per that letter.

I still have a theory that Z was intentionally using the + sign between some words like ‘woeman + her’ because in other instances he wrote the word ‘and’. I’m convinced he was wanting the reader to anagram those words or perform some manipulation on them.

On a different note, I stumbled across this thread recently:

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/fo … &start=450

Note that just before half way down the posts, the member The Real Suspect Zero states the following:

Leigh happened to know Fred Manalli, the SRJC instructor who was killed in an auto accident on Hwy 12 on his way to Sebastopol where he lived.

He is referring to ALA who he claims in the rest of the forum to have spent considerable time with many years back, in his research on a Zodiac book. Not sure he ever published the book however he is convinced that ALA is the Zodiac and moreover, that he had an accomplice. I’ve read a lot of the posts and he never associates ALA anywhere else with Manalli, nor does he mention Manalli or think of him as the accomplice. So, I only found it interesting in relation to this discussion and wondered if it was possible to verify.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:34 pm

Thanks Luke.

Yeah , I’m just throwing stuff out as I find it. Even if it’s just similar or zodiac-esque regarding the Joyce stuff. Even if the whole Manalli thing turns out to be Zynchronicity it’s thrown up some interesting stuff.

Even regarding Zodiac’s handwriting. I’m coming across similarities between accepted zodiac stuff and the more contentious stuff because of this.

Regarding other literary works, I think Morf is looking at the other Joyce Stuff when he has time and Doranchak is bulk searching for words like christmass in other publications and has listed some in this thread.

As for the Manalli, Allen connection. I’ve seen it mentioned earlier in the thread but I don’t know anything else about it. Haven’t had the time to check to be honest but I will check your link. It’s something to help me take a break from letter comparisons

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:35 pm

Ok,

I’ve been working on the infamous 3 stroke k now for about 8 hours and there’s still quite a way to go. Basically I’ve taken all of zodiac’s k’s and put them together and am about halfway through Manalli’s.

I have another separate theory about the k which I will ponder and work on as part of this but for now I’m primarily concerned with the ‘relatively’ easy task of finding an example of Manalli doing a three stroke k or Zodiac doing a 2 stroke K.

Found Manalli’s 3 stroke.

Zodiac not so clear cut but I think I’ve found a very close similarity between zodiac’s k’s when they drift into very nearly being a 2 stroke and Manalli’s K’s when they drift and threaten to become a 3 stroke (obviously not counting the one where it is a three stroke.)

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:47 pm

Joyce purposely tried to use as many words as possible in Finnegan’s Wake. He literally just copied from the dictionary and it’s boasted that the work contains every word in the English language.

I don’t know if Joyce was common high school reading at the time, I wouldn’t think so because he was unpopular in America in the 30’s and 40’s. By the 60’s though, I think you would have college students reading his work, especially English and literature students. Maybe that’s something there. He was also a notorious libertine, and maybe that could have appealed to the "free love" hippies of the time.

Campbell and other Joyce scholars have pointed out his influence from Dante, and Fin’s wake is a sort of allegory to Purgatorio. Although Joyce’s version is based on his study of Jung’s archetypes and the themes of resurrection and his own Catholic upbringing of redemption; I don’t think it was inline with Z’s "slaves in paradice" (maybe a Dante reference?) it could easily appeal to someone who digged pseudo-religious iconography and didn’t really grasp the real philosophical meaning of the work.

To me that really fits the personality of Zodiac as the wannabe who was desperately trying to sound like he was a part of the intelligentsia, when he was just an underachiever with a victim complex.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:22 am

In working with Trav, I too have been noticing the continued similarities between Manalli & Zodiac, INCLUDING A 3 STROKE K by Manalli! I have used a 3 stroke K myself, for as long as I can remember writing. Its the only natural way I can do it. The only way I would do a 2 stroke would be for me to change it intentionally. Yet, Manalli uses mostly 2 strokes, then all of a sudden, we catch a 3 stroke in his letters. Thats really odd, and should never happen. Unless he purposely added it, or accidentally did one (because he was used to writing them sometimes for some reason, like Zodiac leters).

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:13 am

Thanks for putting all that together Morf. Looks really well.

So what you might ask does Trav do when he’s not staring at the letters of dead people for hours on end? Why naturally Trav watches films that were once watched by dead people. Specifically the film Manalli mentioned in his letter dated Aug 27th 1969. "I am curious (yellow)".

You can read about it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Curious_(Yellow )

So …. Well, I probably already biased myself given the date of the mention and yes I was looking out for anything Berryessa-ish. You’ll have allow me that because there was no other real motivation for sitting through 2 hours of Swedish Art-Noir with no subtitles. Actually I’m probably going to get the subs and go through it again just to be thorough.

I’ve tried to be objective and not get to carried away tuning everything into some hidden zodiac thing. The only thing that kinda jumped out at me was the white convertable, an MG. It seemed to feature a reasonable amount in the film. There’s also a scene shot at a cabin in the woods, where Lena, the main character is trying yoga poses from a book and one of them is the hogtied position.
The guy with the convertible shows up after this and after initially being threatened with a shot gun, he and Lena make love and lie naked in each others arms under a tree. They then drive to a lake, where after some sort of argument in Swedish, they end up doing it in the water. Just prior to that the guy is washing his car which is pulled off the road beside the lake and he hunkered down washing the door. Looks like what you imagine it looks like. A guy, hunkered down beside the door of a white convertible with a black top parked just off the road.

After this Lena has a dream where she ties a bunch of men to a tree. Convertible guy turns up, she shots him with the shotgun and cuts his you-know-what off.

Throughout the whole there’s things posted on telegraph poles and written in Swedish. Oh and the K is a Zodiac 3-stroke. Lena has chalkboard which features heavily in the film with numbers on it that are constantly rising. So there’s white convertible, hand writing, lake, murder, rope, tree, young couple, girl is blonde, guy wears sunglasses. you get the idea.

Another bit I suppose is more subjective, in a scene nearing the end, Lena has another freak out in Swedish, wrecks her room, takes two daggers that are on her door and holding one in each hand, she kisses each one in turn before plunging them into the eyes of a portrait of Franco Francisco.

So yeah, theres all the nice keywords there, murder, knife, gun etc etc bla bla.

To be honest I’d really hoped for a hood.

Then something unexpected happened. A banjo serenader. It’s another scene near the very end. Lena and convertible guy are in what looks like an old hospital and they are both in separate room getting bathed and scrubbed then oil poured over them. It cuts occasionally to shots of the film crew and suddenly one of them is just sitting there and serenading everyone with a banjo.

The other film was "The Pawnbroker" starring Rod Steiger. Manalli mentions seeing this in a 1965 letter. The thing that struck me about this was the lake thing seemed to feature quite a bit and again it was in flash backs (or dreams). the flash backs featured him and his family having a picnic, under a tree, by a lake. You see it right at the start of the film and it last up until the point where all the family fun turns to fear but you don’t see what it is that’s alarmed them.

In the end you do and as they are looking towards the road, a motorcycle comes into view from behind a tree near them and it has three nazi soldiers in it and they get out, approach the fence and point their guns at the famliy under the tree.

Nice taste in films this guy had.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:19 am

Stranger & Stranger

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:59 am

Tell me about it,

Here’s some screen grabs might illustrate better.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:36 am

That is some weird shit. I find myself more fascinated by it than by the handwriting. This Manalli guy is starting to look more and more intriguing.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:01 am

To me that really fits the personality of Zodiac as the wannabe who was desperately trying to sound like he was a part of the intelligentsia, when he was just an underachiever with a victim complex.

I would say that fits Manalli to a tee. All he seems to do is gripe about feeling like he’s being left behind. He refers to Berkely as a Cathedral of Learning, an Athens-by-the-sea and he dislikes it because it is so hard to penetrate it’s inner chambers.

Regarding the whole "Paradice" and "slaves" thing. I think Z was full of it. He seems to cross references here in that he say about "being reborn" into paradice which does speak of ressurection to me.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:06 am

That is some weird shit. I find myself more fascinated by it than by the handwriting. This Manalli guy is starting to look more and more intriguing.

It was intriguing enough for me from the onset with the handwriting. The rest of this stuff is just getting bizarre. I have to wonder why all of these things are are literally popping out of the woodwork. It’s not like much digging is needed, it’s just kinda falling in line and all from a few pages of Manalli’s writing.

I’m telling you now. If someone had written on that car door in "I am Curious (yellow)" I would have turned the computer off and nailed the windows shut.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:32 am

Ok last one for tonight or rather this morning.

The last scene in I am Curious Yellow involves Lena returning a "set of keys" to the director that was filming them and then she gets in the lift with convertible guy.

The credits roll.

Then the very last image you see is "one of those nice butons" on a cap.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:03 am

Wow, thats weird. The peace button…really cool. What year did that movie come out again?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:21 am

The title of the weird film ‘I am Curious’ just sank into my head. Zodiac wrote ‘I am mildy CEROUS’…obviously, he meant, CURIOUS.
‘

Trav you watched I AM CURIOUS…YELLOW. Did you alos watch the companion sequal/prequel ‘I AM CURIOUS..BLUE’?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Curious_(Blue )

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:37 am

Trav, I found another 3 stroke K from Manalli.

Scratch that, I found 2 more-

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:50 am

I found MORE writings by Manalli:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Sho … KKNwAACAAJ

http://beta.worldcat.org/archivegrid/re … rd+Library

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:06 am

When Mannali writes about a total or numbers, here’s how he writes it:

Look familiar?

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:29 am

Wonder if ‘I Am Curious’ was showing anywhere in the Bay Area at the time, and if so, where.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:36 am

Wonder if ‘I Am Curious’ was showing anywhere in the Bay Area at the time, and if so, where.

In the wiki link, it states that the film was originally only showing in a few theaters across the county (in the north east)because of the sexual material being considered obscene. It got alot of word of mouth, and publicity for these reasons, which made for a promising profit, so eventually, it WAS shown nation wide.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:41 am

Nice.

The how he writes his numbers made me say OMG out loud.

3 stroke k’s, there’s another one BTW. It’s a correction on one of the typed pages near the bottom (inserting word – back).

See how things just keep coming. It’s weird. If this isn’t Z then I think we at least might have stumbled on a template for him at least lol.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:49 am

The title of the weird film ‘I am Curious’ just sank into my head. Zodiac wrote ‘I am mildy CEROUS’…obviously, he meant, CURIOUS.
‘

Trav you watched I AM CURIOUS…YELLOW. Did you alos watch the companion sequal/prequel ‘I AM CURIOUS..BLUE’?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Curious_(Blue )

Yeah I was thinking that as well about the curious/cerous. As for the other other 2 films in the trilogy – no not yet but I will. nice going on the books too.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:58 am

Wonder if ‘I Am Curious’ was showing anywhere in the Bay Area at the time, and if so, where.

In the wiki link, it states that the film was originally only showing in a few theaters across the county (in the north east)because of the sexual material being considered obscene. It got alot of word of mouth, and publicity for these reasons, which made for a promising profit, so eventually, it WAS shown nation wide.

This film DID play in the bay area summer of 69. Here’s an article from the June 69 Fremont Argus:

And this ad for the movie appeared in the 8/13/69 Oakland Tribune:

It was showing at the Fox in Oakland.

Hmmm, 8/13/69…why do I know that date?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:28 am

The date of Sharon Tate’s funeral was 13/8/1969

Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:50 am

I’ll caveat this post first by saying it’s a little bit of a stretch. Anyway, here goes…

April 20, 1970, My name is… letter:

I am mildly cerous…

Cerous in this context obviously means ‘curious’.

Cerous however is an actual word meaning:

Of, relating to, or containing cerium, especially with valence 3.

Cerium III is actually white or colorless whilst cerium IV is YELLOW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerium

And also, cerium IV is a WEAK base. Weak being a synonym for MILD.

So in Zodiac’s sentence we can actually obtain the full title of the film, I am Curious (Yellow).

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:53 am

Luke, thats pretty interesting. One of my fave suspects worked for humble Oil as a tech, so I have long known that CEROUS is a chemistry term relating to petroleum production. But in the fashion that you are presenting it, it seems plausible.

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:16 am

Very interesting find by Trav on Finnegan’s Wake word matches. Someone, Entropy I think, has a list of all of Z’s misspellings. I’d be interested in a list of them and how many appear in FW.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:22 am

Very interesting find by Trav on Finnegan’s Wake word matches. Someone, Entropy I think, has a list of all of Z’s misspellings. I’d be interested in a list of them and how many appear in FW.

Okay Entropy…..break it out…

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:24 am

I think it would be wise not to limit our investigation of Manalli to handwriting analysis alone. What else can we dig up on this guy to tie him to the Zodiac murders?

I agree completely. Let’s start with this stuff and see if there is any truth to these statements by Manalli:

Every time I re-read Manalli’s stuff, something jumps out. Like this-

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:34 am

Yeah that’s interesting. I have long followed the belief that Manelli was 6’3" or thereabouts, though I don’t know where that comes from. I don’t think Fouke, nor Hartnell, would have goofed up that bad, and it’s much harder to appear shorter than taller. Also likely if that was his height, his shoe size was larger than 10.5.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:36 am

Yeah that’s interesting. I have long followed the belief that Manelli was 6’3" or thereabouts, though I don’t know where that comes from. I don’t think Fouke, nor Hartnell, would have goofed up that bad, and it’s much harder to appear shorter than taller. Also likely if that was his height, his shoe size was larger than 10.5.

Seagull found his height, etc in a military form someplace. It was from the 50’s when he was in the service briefly. Graysmith described Manalli as "heavyset" when he was a teacher at Santa Rosa.

KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:39 am

:bounce: WOW!!! IT SOUNDS JUST LIKE HIM. AND ALL THAT JAZZ. MAY WE SEE MORE OF THAT LEttER, MORF13? IS THERE MORE FROM THIS PERSON?

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:05 pm

I got the information about Manalli’s height and weight from his DD214, military discharge that is on file at the Sonoma County Recorders office. This is a document that can be viewed but not copied so I took notes. His height is given as 6’3" his weight 175 lbs. Most likely those measurements were taken when he entered the military in 1958 so they are very outdated. The height of course would be the same but the weight is probably off. Shoe size was not listed.

A DD214 is filed with a county recorders office when a veteran gets a home loan on the GI Bill.

I question that Arthur Allen went to Santa Rosa Junior College. I have seen nothing to confirm that information. Allen was a credentialed teacher who had completed a four year college and then some to receive his degree. Why would he go to a junior college which offers lower classmen type classes? Allen had already taken those classes including any english classes which is what Manalli taught, more specifically writing classes. Any classes offered at a junior college would not qualify a teacher to advance their teaching degree, they would need to go to a four year college for that.

I could see Allen possibly going to a junior college if he wanted to take some vocational type classes or maybe classes dealing with the arts, photography, drawing, ceramics etc. but in that case where would he have the occasion to hook up with Manalli? From what I have read of Manalli’s letters he wasn’t overly enthusiastic about his job. He did what was required of him but no more. He taught his subjects and then went home to work on his own writing.

, Subject: weight Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:15 pm

175 lb is on the "light side" for someone that is 6′ 3". Not saying the records are wrong, but he would have been quite thin.

-tbz

Edit: I take that back… looks like he would have been right in the "healthy range" according to statistics. Still, I’m 5′ 10" and always looked very thin when I was 175 lb. I think I may need to hit the gym again.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:18 pm

175 lb is on the "light side" for someone that is 6′ 3". Not saying the records are wrong, but he would have been quite thin.

-tbz

He had 10 years to put on weight. I know I have gained alot of weight over the last 10 years :no: Graysmith described Manalli as ‘heavyset’. Not sure where he got that info from.

For the hell of it, I am going to send out a military records req for Manalli.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:21 pm

Seagull, I assume Manalli was in the Army?

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:26 pm

I’ll PM you his service number, Morf.

Manalli was born March 7, 1935, in 1958 he was just 23 years old. He had plenty of time to put on more weight and wouldn’t doubt that did.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:33 pm

I’ll PM you his service number, Morf.

Manalli was born March 7, 1935, in 1958 he was just 23 years old. He had plenty of time to put on more weight and wouldn’t doubt that did.

Great I have the FOIA request and envelope ready to go, just need the service#

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:11 pm

Ugh, I hate rain.

Manalli mentions the army in his letters but you’d easily miss it. He talking about not being able to stick at anything too long because he becomes too saturated by it and ends by saying – that includes the Army.

Maybe he got discharged for shuffling when he walked and shooting at people – that would be encouraging.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:16 pm

Manalli’s rank in the Army at the time of his discharge was SP4(E-4)(7). I am not sure what the (7) means but here is a website which explains simply what the other means.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Army-Enlisted … d&id=83715

According to his discharge papers Manalli joined the Army Reserves and was called to active duty Nov. 18, 1958. He initially joined Oct. 1, 1957. He spent 1 year, 11 months and 25 days on active duty. Upon completing his inactive obligation he was discharged from military service Sept. 30, 1963. During his active duty he spent 1 year, 6 months and 7 days overseas. I do not know where he was stationed.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:33 pm

Morf (and others):

I did a psychological analysis of the letters a couple of years ago for Seagull.
Only Seagull will know if I have letters that she did not send you, and I have copies of copies, many hard for me to read.

I was not trained in handwriting analysis, so I did not look at the letters
from that prespective. I was working on trying to analyze his state of mind at the time and determine if he was even capable of murder.

It was very helpful to me, that I did NOT know Manelli’s background, either before or after these letters, so my thoughts on this project would be able to concentrate on the contents only.

Manelli’s death is a mystery to me. I have not read all the posts in this forum, yet, so I don’t know if it came up, but there were mysterious circumstances involved. He died of a head-on auto collision on a fromer 2-lane road in Santa Rosa that is freeway now. He apparently turned his vehicle into an oncoming car. The other person survived, but what caused the action?

I asked Seagull for Manelli’s blood content to determine if alcohol was involved.
Did he have a heart attack? For some reason, I cannot determine it would be suicide wanting to take out an innocent person. I forget the road conditions, then – perhaps something made him swerve.

Anyway, if I have any material that can be helpful, I can scan it and send it.
Seagull, I think you will know the period – the early 60’s and the letters between Manelli and his former professor. Manelli was definately a very frustrated man. One reason – could not get his poems published. Another reason – could not find a better job then teaching at SRJC (I think he tried SF State, but do not remember). He also could not get his Master’s Degree from the University of his choice. As I remember, Manelli’s wife, Susan, divorced him and married his business partner Don Emblam.

This is a very interesting case. I am glad it is here.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:41 pm

Manalli died after his car ‘drifted’ into oncoming traffic. Official cause of death was shock from multiple cuts(if I remember right). I too wondered if he was drunk or chose suicide by auto. None of that mentioned in the death records. Manalli did seem like a frustrated man.

The funny thing is, Manalli is only a Z suspect because Graysmith mentioned him as such. Graysmith was apprently alerted to Manalli by an investigator, so I think that the investigator likely suspected Manalli as being involved in a Santa Rosa murder. Graysmith tried to link manalli to ALA, but thats never been proven. Still, I would like to know if some of the things about Manlli are true, especially if he was ever a teacher in southern CA.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:00 pm

There is MORE Manalli stuff waiting in the wings……

http://library.wustl.edu/units/spec/man … SS144.html
Papers from Manalli, in Sept 69 & Nov 69. These would be certainly interesting, as Zodiac was pretty busy writing letters around this time. I will see if I can get these

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:35 pm

My knowledge of Manelli is very limited, which was helpful so I could get
somewhat of an accurate psychological reading from the letters.

It was Sebastopol Road in Santa Rosa where the Manelli accident happened.
In those days, it was still 2-lane. (Now freeway). I stayed at a house on
Kenmore Lane, which was not connected to Sebastopol Road (then-is now).
It is about a mile west where the accident occured.

You mentioned the word "drifted" when I thought he "made a sharp turn."
I wonder if he fell asleep at the wheel? I think he passed later at the hospital.
He died from multiple wounds and cuts, as I remember also. I think he was in a van, hitting a small car, but don’t remember, so my statement on that is not reliable.

Morf, between you and Seagull, who has studied Manelli and the SRHM for years, have shed light on the accident and Manelli himself. Maybe Seagull knows if Manelli was in SoCal. I think he came from Chicago, but, from my memory, could very well be mistaken.

In psychology, extreme frustration can turn to inward anger and bitterness.
Is it possible such anger could lead to the desire to kill? Possible, depending on the person’s lifescript, of which I do not know about Manelli.

He was a very highly respected man in his area, which does not rule out
he could have an impulse to kill, and certainly an interesting character.
I am sure losing his wife to his business partner didn’t help matters, although I understand that they had filed for divorce several times in the past.

My papers Seagull sent were from the late 50’s-early 60’s, so the link Morf provided, above, would be a time frame of Zodiac activity.

I still have to finish reading the thread up to this page – I am on page 6…
did anybody copy/paste the death certificate or the newspaper articles on the accident? If not, I can.

abnerck@msn.com

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:00 pm

That would be great Train if you could post those.

Here’s the comp chart for the k’s.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:07 pm

Good work again Trav. Its hard to explain why Manalli uses both a 2 stroke & 3 stroke K. Theres no logical explanation for it. Again, I have used a 3 stroke K my entire life,and the only way I could possibly make a 2 stroke would not be on accident, I would physically & mentally have to make a conscious effort to do it. So, why did Manalli do it? Anybody else disagree with this?

This is good stuff for sure.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:39 pm

I have to say at this point that I’m not sure either way. There are things that make me think, ok, close but probably no cigar and then there are things that I can’t really explain or can explain too easily.

Duckking said to me recently that this was all both intriguing and confusing. I think that sums it up very well. Perhaps as a nod to Joyce we could term it
"Contriguing".

The ‘Drift’ thing I mention is a fancy way of saying for each variation on Zodiac’s k’s, Manalli seems to have a counterpart. Also both start at opposites ends, one trying to stick a clean 3 stroke k and the other trying to stick to a cursive k. Neither managing it. To be very clear – I have no idea if this means anything. Maybe lots of people do that?

Hmmmm…just had a thought. I did do that….when I was a kid learning cursive so maybe it’s an indicator of a change in form from cursive to print and vice-versa at the same time overlapping. I would have expected, maybe, for there to be more contamination in the printed stuff than in the cursive stuff…..unless they were, in a way both learning experiences to a certain degree. Learning to write all in print and re-learning to write in cursive.

Manalli on serveral of his letters apologizes for writing rather than typing (his typewriter was being fixed). He hopes his writing will be legible and complains that he barely read it himself. He seemed to much prefer typing. Seagull would that be right or is it 50/50 ish for handwritten vs typed? Wish we knew if he left or right handed.

I wanted ask, is this ‘contriguing’ or is it just all shiny and new? I’m ‘contrigued’ , then I’m confused, then intrigued, then contrigued again.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:56 pm

Good work again Trav. Its hard to explain why Manalli uses both a 2 stroke & 3 stroke K. Theres no logical explanation for it. Again, I have used a 3 stroke K my entire life,and the only way I could possibly make a 2 stroke would not be on accident, I would physically & mentally have to make a conscious effort to do it. So, why did Manalli do it? Anybody else disagree with this?

This is good stuff for sure.

I agree with you on the changing from one form to another. I would have to stop and think.

As for Manalli and his 2 stroke and then 3 stroke. I would maybe guess that the simplest answer might be the most logical. His 3 stroke is his uppercase print 3 stroke.

He may be used to implementing that when doing something in print. I dont mean the Zodiac letters btw, it could be anything like signs for the classroom or simply what some people might call, their tidy writing.

Because there are more angles in a 3 stroke k its a little more forgiving as it fills the space better and it’s easier to get the stoke lengths right even if you don’t it still looks ok.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:58 pm

There is way more typewritten stuff than handwritten. I sent you the bulk of the handwritten letters.

Manalli does speak of having blackouts, not alcoholic blackouts, just times where he has no idea what he has been doing for periods of time. He was seeking medical attention for the problem. I have read somewhere, maybe Graysmith, that he had epilepsy but it doesn’t really say that was the diagnosis in his letters. When reading those parts I was reminded of the blackouts that Arthur Shawcross had at the times of the murders he committed. I believe other serial killers have complained of the same thing happening to them. I suppose many would believe that the killers were just using blackouts as an excuse not to face up and fess up to the crimes thay have committed. It actually might be a real occurance, something to do with the psychology of killing and protecting oneself mentally from the horror of what they have done.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:03 pm

VERY INTERESTING, indeed, traveller. You are good at this.

Most (if not all) psychological profiles point to Zodiac having a hatred for women.

Manelli taught in a junior college where women, around the ages of the SRHM occured, as well
as the ages of the Zodiac victims.

I am not saying that Manelli is the responsible – just that this information is very interesting!

I will go through the material I have. I think Seagull has the originals which would show up better, but
if she is busy, I would be happy to post them.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:13 pm

Trainmaster please do NOT post Manalli’s letters!!! I signed copyright agreements and the letters can not be posted in whole unless I get permission. I do not have the original letters, just copies. Mine are first generation copies, yours second generation but I went to a good copy place to get your copies and saw no difference.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:21 pm

Thanks Seagull.

I had a feeling that was probably the case with the handwritten stuff.

Also, I can personally vouch for the weirdness of blackouts. If you have a proper blackout, and I don’t mean forgetting bits of a heavy, sauce filled evening, you don’t remember anything. This is because as far as your brain is concerned there is nothing to remember. It’s not like having a blank spot in you memory, where, whether you realise it or not, you can remember because you know there’s something missing.

A blackout doesn’t leave you that. You don’t even have an inkling. You remember right up until the blackout happens, you remember after it but even if you sit down after knowing you had a blackout and work out how long it was you head still won’t accept that there’s even a gap there.

The brain can’t process what a blackout is because it was turned off essentially at the time. When it comes back online there’s no back up of data like you would have if you were sleeping or even just blind drunk. We still have emotions and sensations during those times and those can form the basis associative memory where you still can’t remember but your brain remembers a backup reference to place it roughly in time. There is no time in a blackout to even reference against.

EDIT: FWIW I doubt Zodiac had blackouts since he was able to remember his crimes and write about about them. You can do anything in a blackout but I don’t think it includes getting up the next morning and posting details of your crime to the papers.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:22 pm

Trainmaster please do NOT post Manalli’s letters!!! I signed copyright agreements and the letters can not be posted in whole unless I get permission. I do not have the original letters, just copies. Mine are first generation copies, yours second generation but I went to a good copy place to get your copies and saw no difference.

Good catch Seagull. Sorry that was my fault I just wasn’t thinking at all.

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:45 pm

Wow, one stroke Ks, that takes some effort!

6’3", just can’t get past that. And that was likely barefoot.

That would be great Train if you could post those.

Here’s the comp chart for the k’s.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:15 pm

Don’t worry, Seagull. I understand the situation very well. Same goes for the Death Certificate and paper articles.

If anyone wants information, they should be directed to either you or Morf.

Thanks for posting that. I certainly would not want trouble for you!

Best,

Trainmaster

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:03 am

FWIW I doubt Zodiac had blackouts since he was able to remember his crimes and write about about them. You can do anything in a blackout but I don’t think it includes getting up the next morning and posting details of your crime to the papers.

Unless, of course, the letter writing and letter sending also occurred during these blackouts.

I used to pooh-pooh the notion of dissociative fugues, until I actually saw one myself. Now I don’t feel I can dismiss such a hypothesis where it comes to Zodiac. I could explain why the 1974 letters are so different from the Zodiac ones.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:42 am

Very true Nacht. I don’t know how long blackout last for though.

Ok,

I was trying to think of a clear way to show this. In the end I just stuck it on there and sized it as best I could. What you are looking for is where the two samples match up, follow the same shape, same line, same gaps (for the most), same left margin scooping in.

Look closely and slowly at each letter and follow the writing through to the end…let me know at which point you can’t tell which is which.

EDIT: Here’s another one with the left margin visible.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:59 am

Not meaning to be a repetitive sounding board, but, holding a Psychology degree, I can say blackouts vary from
one person to another. A lot of it depends on the individual’s lifescript. I often wonder if the killer suffered from DID
(Dissociative Identity Disorder)???

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:24 am

Sorry Trav, although I agree with you, and think there are many similarities in Manalli’s writing, this overlay of Manalli’s against the Citizen letter, is too jumbled,too loud for me. I can’t really read it well,as it seems a bit cluttered.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:25 am

I have found one more similarity between Manalli & Zodiac, and one big difference….

First the similairty. Everytime Manalli writes something with a capital ‘TH’, he connects the tops of the T & H, just like Z did(see below):

The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word ‘the’, he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.

patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:20 am

…

I was trying to think of a clear way to show this. In the end I just stuck it on there and sized it as best I could. What you are looking for is where the two samples match up, follow the same shape, same line, same gaps (for the most), same left margin scooping in.

Look closely and slowly at each letter and follow the writing through to the end…let me know at which point you can’t tell which is which.

….

I see differences as early as the first and second lines.

The Greeting "Sirs" has a dash followed by the beginning of the body of the letter whereas Manalli follows the usual format of a letter’s greeting. There is also a date on Manalli’s exemplar but not on Zodiac’s. The paragraph indentation is different as are the left and right margin alignments, the right in particular. Horizontal alignment is close but not near a perfect match.

I can’t make a letter-by-letter comparison other than to say the height of the letters are similar. Manalli’s letters look smaller.

I have no training in document examination but to my eye the writings are different.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:17 am

No probs,

It is hard to see and hopefully I can show what I’m seeing in more detail but I wanted that out there first because I think it will useful to look back at once the details are highlighted.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:21 am

The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word ‘the’, he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.

Yup, you’re right.

I’ve had a quick look and he does it for the words the, this, and that. Haven’t checked it all but that seems pretty much the case throughout. Actually it’s any word that starts with ‘th’.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:12 pm

Hey, Trav:

I noticed you are in Northern Ireland….Belfast?

I am curious about your handwriting analysis, as you are doing a good job – were you trained in that?

I am really thrown off in the post, above. I can recognize "Dear Dan" as Manelli’s writing, and the background the Zodiac, I can’t make out. You guys have much
better eyesight then I do. Please keep us informed.

Morf, I don’t mean to butt in, but I looked at my Manelli papers, and yes, he does capitalize every word with "The" and any modifier that begins with "T" (There). (Handwriting only – not typed). Just thought you would like to know. Sorry for intruding.

Trainmaster

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:36 pm

Hi Train,

No not Belfast, Downpatrick.

As for the handwriting, no I wasn’t. In no way am I trained in handwriting analysis. I have been a graphic designer for over 20 years, and that includes font creation and type styling so that’s why I have a reasonably meticulous eye and can see things that other might not look for or recognise. Most of the time I’m in that category too though lol.

I started back in the days before computers so I spent a long time manually drawing typefaces and doing artwork and so on and that’s memory of those techniques has proved somewhat useful for my amateur attempts at analysis.

I wouldn’t worry about the last post. It is very hard to see but will hopefully follow later with something clearer to point out the interesting bits in it that I’m seeing.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:33 pm

More comparisons…

The word ‘editor’. The top one is Manalli’s and the rest are Z’s.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:09 pm

This is the most unusual comparison in my opinion, between Zodiac & Manalli. Neither Z, or Manalli usually made their letter K’s like this. But it seems as if they both made an exception and did it at least onece, and they almost mirror each other as if they were specially designed. I call it the ‘special K’ comparison, because they are both really unusual. One has a curl on the top, and the other has the same exact curl on the bottom.

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:53 pm

Morf, that K you pointed out of Minalli’s, upon enlarging, is the same as his others, and was likely connected as I have shown. You can see there appears to be an blank streak probably from a scan or photocopy process.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 pm

Here’s how Manalii’s text lines up over the citizen letter. I’ve removed some bits and left the relevant bits to show how they match up. This text was lfted from a section of a letter and what remains of the words are spaced from each other as they were in the letter.

I can’t stress enough how much stuff in this lines up. The verticals change shape slightly as they go from left to right, Manalli’s do exactly the same thing. Letters within words line up on curves and angles as well as the same letter sometimes.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:39 pm

FOUND IT.

That mirror thing I kept mentioning. A weird symmetry that I couldn’t put my finger on.

It’s not a mirror or a reflection, it’s a shadow

When lined up correctly the letters from the and words from the citizen letter provide a shadow for Manalli’s writing. That’s what was weird about it.

BTW: What I think that means is that whatever is written on that citizen letter, is, in all likelyhood, the italicised version of what’s written in Manalli’s letters.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:51 am

Here we go,

This is a few words picked out. On the left are the words with their shadow. On the right I have separated out the two words. I’ve taken the word from the citizen letter and skewed them back into place to match the direction of the writing and look what happens. Look at the spacing in them, they are the same. Even the word light revealed it’s baseline shape which I hadn’t noticed until now and even they match.

I hope this helps illustrate some of the things I’ve been seeing in this guys handwriting.

EDIT: BTW for me to be able to skew those back into shape to match – they have to match. If just one stroke in those words was in the wrong direction I wouldn’t have been able to match them up. So basically those words are matches for each other. There’s no other way to say it.

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:59 am

Still raining eh?

Is any of Minalli’s stuff written in blue felt tip, or on Monarch size paper?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:01 am

More great similarities Trav. I know one thing, if Manalli wasnt Zodiac, he certainly happened to have had very similar writing to Z. I have been trying to use Zodiac’s writing in pen instead of his writing in felt tip, because I think the ink writing looks more like his everyday writing, while the felt tip writing can make the letters appear fatter or thicker, as opposed to the ink pen which will be thinner.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:02 am

There are one or two letters with a handwritten postscript that looks to be felt tipped pen but as the letters I have are copies, I don’t know the true color of the pen.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:07 am

I’m reposting this in case it gets missed as the edit to my last post. This is important.

BTW for me to be able to skew those back into shape to match – they have to match. If just one stroke in those words was in the wrong direction I wouldn’t have been able to match them up. So basically those words are matches for each other. There’s no other way to say it.

I have to get one letter to match and the other have to be of the correct spacing to fall in line. These did just that, perfectly.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:29 am

Another comparison:

If you straighten out Zodiac’s ‘HILLS’ and take the slant out of it, it seems to be almost identical to Manalli’s. I am not a writing expoert, and personally, I would love to hear a writing expert’s opinion on Manalli’s writing compared to Zodiac. Some experts have felt that Zodiac was under the influence of something (drugs, or some sort of episode)when he wrote his letters. That could certainly change appearance of somebodys writing I would think.

TRAV, you can you turn/slant the word ‘HILLS’ as written by Manalli to see what it looks like against Z’s?…Hell….maybe try that with all of manalli’s samples.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:57 am

The word ‘PUBLIC’ from both Z & Manalli, notice how both words have a curve uner them, or the word seems to rainbow.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:41 pm

Analysis of one of Manalli’s poems (Supplied by Seagull with many thanks)

[url= http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=207&u=17065889 ]

BTW What it seems to be about is writing a will

Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:13 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:16 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.

I am having trouble finding out what High School he attended. I would love to go back and see if they ever did any G&S productions when he was there, or if he was in Drama, etc

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:22 pm

Pretty close,

Not quite as close as the citizen letter but close. Look at the dot on the i in high in both.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:31 pm

Pretty close,

Not quite as close as the citizen letter but close. Look at the dot on the i in high in both.

Wow, tha tis pretty close Trav. This is from AFTER you slant Manalli’s writing to the slant Zodiac uses?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:35 pm

yes it is.

I’ve slanted manalli’s on the top ones to match zodiac and I’ve slanted zodiac’s on the bottom one to match manalli’s

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:38 pm

I could see Zodiac trying to write at a slant to disguise his writing. When you slant Manalli’s writing, it looks even more Z like.

Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:19 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.

I am having trouble finding out what High School he attended. I would love to go back and see if they ever did any G&S productions when he was there, or if he was in Drama, etc

Morf, it’s listed on his college yearbook entry as being a member of the glee club. Maybe check if there were any productions of G&S at University of Illinois at that time?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:30 pm

This is what I meant when I said about the left margins matching

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:07 pm

Wow, nothing of huge value for me to add here, just to say that the collective skills and expertise of the members of this forum never cease to amaze me. Wonderful how a skill like typography can shed such ‘intersting’ light on the case. Fantastic work Trav.

Just to reiterate something I wrote earlier in the thread topic – Manalli was a member of the glee club at college. Gilbert and Sullivan operas are always a favourite with glee societies.

I am having trouble finding out what High School he attended. I would love to go back and see if they ever did any G&S productions when he was there, or if he was in Drama, etc

Morf, it’s listed on his college yearbook entry as being a member of the glee club. Maybe check if there were any productions of G&S at University of Illinois at that time?

I have only Manalli’s college senior yearbook. The plays that the college put on that school year were-

A Streetcar Named Desire
Hedda Gabbler
Man snd Superman
King Lear
The Caine Mutiny Court Martial

There is a photo of all the men’s glee club members but Manalli is not in that picture. Going by the numbers in parenthese next to the activities he participated in while at college I would say he was in glee club just his first year, looks like he was on the Illni Union Committee his first and second years and so on.

I have looked through the yearbook for other Zodiac related stuff but didn’t see any. Could have missed something of course, it’s the largest yearbook I’ve ever seen!

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:53 pm

Seagull, is that yearbook online anyplace?

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:57 pm

I bought one from Ebay but I was able to make sure that Manalli was in there by looking through one at Classmates.com first.

University of Illinois Champaign Urbana 1957

There are only pictures of the seniors in the yearbook so I don’t think it would do any good to get previous years.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:37 pm

I bought one from Ebay but I was able to make sure that Manalli was in there by looking through one at Classmates.com first.

University of Illinois Champaign Urbana 1957

There are only pictures of the seniors in the yearbook so I don’t think it would do any good to get previous years.

Seagull, do you remember, I posted articles a long time back that mentioned Manalli was a teacher of some sort in Illinois? Do you still have those articles?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:48 pm

So I was checking out another film Manalli mentioned. HELP by the Beatles.

Starts off with an executioner in full costume ready to make a human sacrifice. Spotted this little bit of zynchronicity though. A manhole cover that’s actually a hat cause the executioner is hiding under it.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:49 pm

You posted them here Morf

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oma-county

there’s one more on the page following the above page!

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:06 pm

You posted them here Morf

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oma-county

there’s one more on the page following the above page!

Thanks. By the way Seagull, in Manalli’s yearbook listing, it lists his activities,one of which is oratorio society. I had to look that up here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oratorio

"An oratorio is a large musical composition including an orchestra, a choir, and soloists. Like an opera, an oratorio includes the use of a choir, soloists, an ensemble, various distinguishable characters, and arias. However, opera is musical theatre, while oratorio is strictly a concert piece—though oratorios are sometimes staged as operas, and operas are sometimes presented in concert form"

Then I looked up Gilbert & Sullivan:

"Sir Arthur Seymour Sullivan MVO (13 May 1842 – 22 November 1900) was an English composer of Irish and Italian ancestry. He is best known for his series of 14 operatic collaborations with the dramatist W. S. Gilbert, including such enduring works as H.M.S. Pinafore, The Pirates of Penzance and The Mikado. Sullivan composed 23 operas, 13 major orchestral works, eight choral works and oratorios"

Seagull, I am having a hard time tracking down what High School he went to. Any ideas?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:07 pm

So I was checking out another film Manalli mentioned. HELP by the Beatles.

Starts off with an executioner in full costume ready to make a human sacrifice. Spotted this little bit of zynchronicity though. A manhole cover that’s actually a hat cause the executioner is hiding under it.

Hmm. Another interesting item. Did the costume look at all like Berryessa outfit?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:24 pm

Nah it didn’t really look like the Berryessa one.

A few scenes later the scientist’s gun fails and he says "see? British rubbish, if I had a luger…."

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:31 pm

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:39 pm

You posted them here Morf

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oma-county

there’s one more on the page following the above page!

Thanks!

He was at Durand HS in 61. He was Faculty Director

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:50 pm

High School

I’m not certain but I think he may have gone to East High school. I remember looking up the high schools in Rockford, IL and East was one would have been around back in 1953 or thereabouts. It’s also possible that the high school he went to closed. Have you looked at Classmates for high schools in Rockford for that time period?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:53 pm

High School

I’m not certain but I think he may have gone to East High school. I remember looking up the high schools in Rockford, IL and East was one would have been around back in 1953 or thereabouts. It’s also possible that the high school he went to closed. Have you looked at Classmates for high schools in Rockford for that time period?

Yeah, his Brother went to EAST, but I didnt find him

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:55 am

I would not call this a 3 stroke K, at least not in the sense of Z’s usual 3 stroke Ks that begin the downward leg at some point right of the intersection with the vertical. This K could have, and imo was, done without lifting pen from paper for the bottom leg.

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:10 am

I would not call this a 3 stroke K, at least not in the sense of Z’s usual 3 stroke Ks that begin the downward leg at some point right of the intersection with the vertical. This K could have, and imo was, done without lifting pen from paper for the bottom leg.

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.

This is Manalli’s K, and I think there is absolutely, positively, ZERO doubt that this is a 3 stroke.

Like Zodiac, he did both 2 stroke & 3 stroke

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:23 am

Yep, now that is a 3 stroke, multiple adverbs and caps not necessary. Let’s see the entire page.

And show me the Z 2 stroke also.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:49 am

Morf:

A good example of an Oratorio would be Handel’s "Messiah" or Bach’s "Mass in C Minor."

I don’t know what bearing the word has for Manelli – there are no other meanings for "Oratorio."

Hope that helps.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:20 pm

I would not call this a 3 stroke K, at least not in the sense of Z’s usual 3 stroke Ks that begin the downward leg at some point right of the intersection with the vertical. This K could have, and imo was, done without lifting pen from paper for the bottom leg.

Morf,

Here’s your answer to he change in stroke in Manalli’s K’s. He does use a three stroke k for neat print.

I wasn’t sure at first myself if it was a 3 stroke or a 2 stroke. At a distance it does, close up it does look like a 2 stroke except for this. There’s an extra stroke here which doesn’t correspond to the direction of the main upright and heavier.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:23 pm

Actually lets make sure SEAGULL can you email your hi-res copy of that page with that address on it.

EDIT: Also to add when it gets down to this, where the construction of a letter is ambiguous, it’s time for examination of the actual document so you can see the pen strokes to be absolutely sure.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:09 pm

Here we are,

Looks like a 2 stroke but there is something I can’t confirm, happening because it’s a copy and not a photo or an original.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:15 pm

Here we are,

Looks like a 2 stroke but there is something I can’t confirm, happening because it’s a copy and not a photo or an original.

Some Zodiac & Manalli K’s ….

Bentley, you wanted to see a possible 2 stroke K by Zodiac, how about the 4th from the right? If any one is, that is. In one of Sherwood’s memos/reports, wasnt there a mention of Zodiac using 2 different K’s, a 2 stroke & 3 stroke?

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:24 pm

What about the Ampersand?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:28 pm

What about the Ampersand?

Yes, he used an ampersand ( I had to look that one up ) and like Zodiac, he used the other symbol for the word AND

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:31 pm

Here we are,

Looks like a 2 stroke but there is something I can’t confirm, happening because it’s a copy and not a photo or an original.

Some Zodiac & Manalli K’s ….

Bentley, you wanted to see a possible 2 stroke K by Zodiac, how about the 4th from the right? If any one is, that is. In one of Sherwood’s memos/reports, wasnt there a mention of Zodiac using 2 different K’s, a 2 stroke & 3 stroke?

And this comparison looks very clsoe in my opinion:

Now I will turn the K that Z wrote straight upwards and get rid of the salnt, now it looks even more like Manalli’s.

One difference I see on Manalli’s letter K is that he has a slight curve in the top right of his K where Zodiac’s looks more straight.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:56 pm

The Ampersand doesn’t match. It’s Manalli’s occasional lower case t that actually is very close to the Zodiac ampersand.

I had a look at this K again and without seeing the pen strokes themselves I can’t confirm but there is something weird going on that I can’t quite seem to reconcile sufficiently.

Here’s what I think I’m seeing. The downstroke on Manallii’s k is ok but there’s something at the bottom that sticks out from the line followed by the downstroke. What it looks like to me is a second start point for the second stroke.

The top K is one of Zodiac’s. At a distance it could be a 2 point but if you look closely you can see the start points for the strokes and there are 3 of them. That’s what I’ve tried to see here in Manalli’s but because it’s a photocopy rather than a photo it’s inconclusive. All I’m showing here is what I think is there – a best guess to explain the nature of the angle and the out of line bit on the downstroke.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:01 pm

One of these R’s is from Manalli written in 1963 & the other is from the author of the ‘Bates had to die’ letters written in 67. Can you tell which is which?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:00 pm

Ok I was starting to take a look at the desk poem when I spotted something that hadn’t occurred to me. One of the lower case u’s on the desktop tumbles forward. That was one of the things about Zodiac’s letters, his did the same, it’s one of the unique features other than the famous k.

I checked Manalli’s writing and his u’s don’t do that. In 63, and 65 at least. When we get to 69 however his u’s are now doing it. Compared against one of the pages from the little list the angles of the u’s match. I’ve used the word ‘out’ from the letter on the right to illustrate this.

The second image shows that there is a very similar margin shape as we had with the citizen letter.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:26 pm

Here’s something that differs in the Zodiac stuff from Manalli’s. The N’s don’t match. The are the mirror of each other. Zodiac’s have a starting point at the top whereas Manalli’s have a starting point at the bottom.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:45 pm

Ok

A little game for you all.

Which one of the N’s, No.1 or No.2., is backwards?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:17 pm

Here’s something that differs in the Zodiac stuff from Manalli’s. The N’s don’t match. The are the mirror of each other. Zodiac’s have a starting point at the top whereas Manalli’s have a starting point at the bottom.

You are comparing a lower case N of Zodiac’s to an upper case N of Manalli. This is a lower case letter N from Manalli….it starts from the top like Zodiac…

Now, compare a capital N from Zodiac…like manalli’s, it starts from the bottom:

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:19 pm

Ah well spotted. You still have to play the game though.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:25 pm

Ah well spotted. You still have to play the game though.

No problem. This may actually merit a side by side of Zodiac’s alphabet & Manalli’s, and include upper & lower case to see just what is the same & what is not. I already can tell, there will be far more similarities than differences.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:26 pm

Ok

A little game for you all.

Which one of the N’s, No.1 or No.2., is backwards?

I would say #2…or is this a trick question?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:29 pm

No 2 is the one that is backwards … but….only in the context of this page.

Look again and tell me which one has the same starting point as zodiac’s n’s. Then tell me which one is the wrong way round?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:42 pm

No 2 is the one that is backwards … but….only in the context of this page.

Look again and tell me which one has the same starting point as zodiac’s n’s. Then tell me which one is the wrong way round?

weird

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:47 pm

Yup, it’s visual irony where the one you think is backwards is actually the one that the right way round, in the context of the n itself and how zodiac uses it.

irregardless of anyone else’s handwriting. I wonder if this was deliberately put there for that reason.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:14 pm

My bad on the ampersand. Manalli does do a cross type one as well.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:08 am

More Finnegan’s Wake matches from the full list of Zodiac’s misspellings as compiled by Deoxys (link supplied by Entropy)

When Lapac walks backwords he’s darkest horse in Capalisoot (3 instances in total)

saved from the drohnings they might oncounter, untill his cubid long, to hide in dry (1 instance in total)

moves in vicous cicles yet remews the same; the drain rats bless his offals while the park birds curse his floodlights; (1 instance in total)

come, my horse delayed, nom num, the substance of the tale of the evangelical bussybozzy (1 instance in total, there is another but it’s not in context of the word busy)

comeho to roo. Comehome to roo, wee chickchilds doo, when the wildworewolf’s abroad. (2 instances in total)

(Chorus) Woohoo, what’ll she doo!

A bone, a pebble, a ramskin; chip them, chap them, cut them up allways; leave them to terracook in the muttheringpot (1 instance in total)

Wold Forrester Farley who, in deesperation of deispiration at the diasporation of his diesparation, was found of the round of the sound of the lound of
the.Lukkedoerendunandurraskewdylooshoofermoyportertooryzooysphalnabortansporthaokansakroidverjkapakkapuk. (1 instance in total)

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:19 am

More following a rabbit down a hole to see what I could find.

In one of his letters Manalli talks of drinking with his immediate peers and the literary names they dropped in conversation.
Thought I’d find out who Welty was.

She was Eudroa Welty and I found this quote from her quite interesting and the context of it as well.

Immediately after the murder of Medgar Evers in 1963, Welty wrote Where Is the Voice Coming From?.

As Welty later said, she wondered,

"Whoever the murderer is, I know him: not his identity, but his coming about, in this time and place. That is, I ought to have learned by now, from here, what such a man, intent on such a deed, had going on in his mind. I wrote his story—my fiction—in the first person: about that character’s point of view".

Welty’s story was published in The New Yorker soon after de la Beckwith’s arrest.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:26 am

Trav, Great list of misspellings.

Here’s another from James Joyce’s book, ‘ULYSSES’…
"Pours a cruse of hair oil over" Zodiac wrote, "I will CRUSE around"

I am starting to wonder if ALL of Zodiac’s misspellings can be found in Joyce’s writings, or in the writings of other Authors & writers too. I think there is the overwhelming likelihood that the bulk of Zodiac’s misspellings came from Joyce’s work.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:44 am

I would say that we’ve already found the bulk of them in Joyce. Whether that’s a unique thing and therefore proof I don’t know. One thing that makes me lean towards it being proof is that the words that are found aren’t really strictly misspellings. They are deliberately altered words for a purpose, the remaining words, which I feel are misspellings, I haven’t found in Finnegan’s Wake.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:53 am

From Joyce’s work, ‘ULYSSES’, "after the stumping figure and said mildly"
From Zodiac…"I am mildly cerous’

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:13 am

Check this out-

Adorno’s posthumous Aesthetic Theory (1969) does not, therefore, denounce art after Auschwitz, but elaborates how it works in its new life that is, as it were, an afterlife. The literary models he references for this "afterlife" are James Joyce, Samuel Beckett, and, above all, Paul Celan: those great modernist writers who set before us the disfigured body of art after its own demise. Celan’s poems in particular exemplify at once poetry and the death of poetry. They represent the barbarism of artifice interwoven with the final wall of suffering beyond which there can be no further speech; as Celan phrases this condition, "we grew interlaces, there was / no longer a name for / that which drove us" ("In Prague," qtd. in McClatchy 216). Adorno’s diagnosis, then, is that poetry, that activity of naming things, had been driven, after such mass murder, beyond the naming of things to the naming of silence and suffering. Far from being an outworn activity, it is an essential one because the barbarism of poetry at least is interwoven with voiceless suffering. The workaday world of modern ideology, he found in despairing contrast, had not merely silenced the cry of history’s victims; it had all but erased them.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:16 am

Do you think we should keep talking about Joyce here or make a new thread? I have some more ideas about him and Z connections, but they don’t really have anything to do with FM.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:24 am

Do you think we should keep talking about Joyce here or make a new thread? I have some more ideas about him and Z connections, but they don’t really have anything to do with FM.

Heres a new thread for it:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … oyce#29664

Even if Manalli is not Zodiac, he pointed us possibly towards an important clue in James Joyce

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:22 pm

I knew there was something suspicious about poetry. Even in Primary (Elementary) school I knew it. Good find, even more stuff to look into.

Big Z had asked me about the circle dots that Zodiac uses. These are most evident in the "Exorcist letter" and on the Car Door.

I had considered these as well and hadn’t seen any in Manalli’s writing. I had noted his rather heavy approach to punctuation which is very similar to Zodiacs. By heavy I mean oversized and emphasized as opposed to a simple dot. What I wasn’t sure about was how he constructed these. As the letters are photocopies it not possible to say if a dot is a circle just because there’s a hole in the middle. It could be a solid dot but photocopying degradation can create a hole where there isn’t one.

I was happy enough to leave it as ‘inconclusive’, not least cause I got use a proper grown-up LE term lol. Then, of course, as this writing just keeps doing, something pops up.

Ignore the hole. Look at the outline. There looks to be evidence of a circular motion to create the dot.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:25 pm

I knew there was something suspicious about poetry. Even in Primary (Elementary) school I knew it. Good find, even more stuff to look into.

Big Z had asked me about the circle dots that Zodiac uses. These are most evident in the "Exorcist letter" and on the Car Door.

I had considered these as well and hadn’t seen any in Manalli’s writing. I had noted his rather heavy approach to punctuation which is very similar to Zodiacs. By heavy I mean oversized and emphasized as opposed to a simple dot. What I wasn’t sure about was how he constructed these. As the letters are photocopies it not possible to say if a dot is a circle just because there’s a hole in the middle. It could be a solid dot but photocopying degradation can create a hole where there isn’t one.

I was happy enough to leave it as ‘inconclusive’, not least cause I got use a proper grown-up LE term lol. Then, of course, as this writing just keeps doing, something pops up.

Ignore the hole. Look at the outline. There looks to be evidence of a circular motion to create the dot.

They look almost like little x’s in the circle,almost like this:

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:28 pm

Do you think we should keep talking about Joyce here or make a new thread? I have some more ideas about him and Z connections, but they don’t really have anything to do with FM.

Yes good call. I was thinking the same thing.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:01 pm

Just while we’re looking at this I thought I’d check and what a surprise. Both Manalli and Zodiac do their circles in the same direction.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:26 pm

More Manalli/Zodiac comparisons.

The letetr K. Zodiac did not make his K’s like this most of the time. And neither did Manalli. But this is pretty close in my opinion. Zodiac’s is first & Manalli’s is 2nd. Then third is Zodiac’s again, only this time, I stood it more upright.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:34 pm

Another example of Manalli’s lower case i with the circle on top like Zodiac’s:

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:06 pm

And now we have the right 4 as well.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:27 pm

More Manalli/Zodiac comparisons.

The letetr K. Zodiac did not make his K’s like this most of the time. And neither did Manalli. But this is pretty close in my opinion. Zodiac’s is first & Manalli’s is 2nd. Then third is Zodiac’s again, only this time, I stood it more upright.

Good stuff Morf although you should have used this k a few lines below.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:54 pm

I’m working on a comp for the dripping pen letter but I wanted to post this as I’ve spotted it. I’ll ad the full comp for this card once it’s done.

This shows what I’ll call the half W. I’ve seen this mentioned as a spelling error on occasion but it’s not, it’s just an incomplete w. And good old Fred has one too.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:01 pm

I’m working on a comp for the dripping pen letter but I wanted to post this as I’ve spotted it. I’ll ad the full comp for this card once it’s done.

This shows what I’ll call the half W. I’ve seen this mentioned as a spelling error on occasion but it’s not, it’s just an incomplete w. And good old Fred has one too.

That is impressive Trav. And if you stand Zodiac’s half W straight up, it is very close to a match

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:07 pm

Manalli using one of Zodiac’s favorite words, SHALL

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:26 pm

Some of his typed words….are these jokes???

"Have you read the last paragraph on the first page of the typed stuff?"

We are on the same page

Manalli definitely seemed to think he had some mental issues and was not afraid to mention them:

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:52 pm

Now this is really interesting. In this 1962 letter to Author Dan Curley,Manalli’s mentor(and man crush i think) ,Manalli asks Curley about a story of Curley’s called "THE MANHUNT"… The first thing I thought of, is this story like THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME???

I tried to search for the words,text, or storyline for THE MANHUNT, but I could not find it. But then I came across this book published in 1968 called STUDIES IN THE SHORT STORY.

Studies in the short story,
New York, Holt, Rinehart and Winston [1968]
Book : Fiction : English : 3d ed
pt. 1. Basic elements of fiction — Most dangerous game / Richard Connell ; And the rock cried out / Ray Bradbury ; The Manhunt / Daniel Curley ; The last day in the field / Caroline Gordon ; A Tree, a rock, a cloud / Carson McCullers — pt. 2. Point of view — The Horse Dealer’s Daughter / D. H. Lawrence ; What we don’t know hurts us / Mark Schorer ; Rain / W. Somerset Maugham ; The girls in their summer dresses / Irwin Shaw — pt. 3. Honesty and dishonesty in fiction –De Mortuis / John Collier ; The Lottery / Shirley Jackson ; Necklace / Guy de Maupassant — pt. 4. Symbol — Girl / Meridel Le Sueur ; Portable phonograph / Walter Van Tilburg Clark ; Good country people / Flannery O’Connor ; Flowering Judas / Katherine Anne Porter — Pt. 5. Humor, satire, and fantasy — Catbird seat / James Thurber ; First Confession / Frank O’Connor ; Forks / J.F. Powers ; Other side of the hedge / E. M. Forster ; Adam and Eve and Pinch me ; A. E. Coppard — pt. 6. Theme and variation — Leader of the people / John Steinbeck ; That evening sun / William Faulkner ; Absolution / F.Scott Fitzgerald ; Short happy life of Francis Macomber / Ernest Hemingway — pt. 7. More stories for study — Tell-tale heart / Edgar Allen Poe ; My Kinsman, Major Molineux / Nathaniel Hawthorne ; Bartleby / Herman Melville ; Lament / Anton Chekhov ; Real Thing / Henry James; Herart of Darkness/ Joseph Conrad ; Open Boat / Stephen Crane; Gentleman from San Francisco / Ivan Bunin ; Little Cloud / James Joyce ; Petrified man / Eudora Welty ; Goodbye, my brother / John Cheever; Unspoiled reaction / Mary McCarthy ; Patented gate and the mean hamburger / Robert Penn Warren ; Who made yellow roses yellow? / John Updike ; Defender of the faith / Philip Roth

I have almost ZERO doubt that Manalli read this book. (if you knew the full extent of how Manalli was up Curley’s ass you would understand what I mean).And if he read everything in the book, then he read about THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME 😯

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:59 pm

Is this a simple typo from manalli for the word CHRISTMAS?

You can actually see that he corrected it, and then still misspelled it.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:04 pm

wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:07 pm

wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

Yeah that definitely jumped out at me too.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:21 am

Manalli using one of Zodiac’s favorite words, SHALL

One more for the collection from Manalli-

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:32 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:36 am

When was that written?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:37 am

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:41 am

When was that written?

not sure

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:09 am

Ahhhhh don’t even have to explain these anymore lol.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:02 am

Zodiac & Manalli comparisons again-

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:10 am

Manalli using one of Zodiac’s favorite words, SHALL

One more for the collection from Manalli-

and another couple-

Alot of people wondered if Z was of english heritage because of his use of the word ‘shall’. Somebody,like Manalli, reading as much books & writings of so many english authors,would definitely be exposed to the word

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:35 am

Found a piece typed by Manalli…

"so that I an commit murder and be done with this shit; go down with hands on people’s throats" written by him 12/12/69. I dont have access to a scanner now,so I will post it later tonight

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:47 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:59 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

Stanley Clitoris… (giggle)

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:02 am

Is this a simple typo from manalli for the word CHRISTMAS?

You can actually see that he corrected it, and then still misspelled it.

Chris Y has a lengthy discussion of Zodiac portmanteaus on his board.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:05 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Suffice it to say that my hair is sufficiently on end.

Seagull, I know you have reservations about posting all of this material, but is there some way you could set up a (non-downloadable) account so we can view more than a few snippets at a time?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:08 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

Stanley Clitoris… (giggle)

Chortle hehehe.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:12 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Suffice it to say that my hair is sufficiently on end.

Seagull, I know you have reservations about posting all of this material, but is there some way you could set up a (non-downloadable) account so we can view more than a few snippets at a time?

I just sent it to Trav. Hopefully he or Seagull can post just that segment of the writing without posting the entire thing

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:22 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:37 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:42 am

Ok I don’t know exactly what these might imply.

Might this cause someone to walk in a certain way?

I can’t decide if this is an analogy or not but would welcome guesses as to what ms is.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:43 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?

Its out of the blue. The line before that, he mentions that he was painting "a lovely centrifuge thing"

In a letter dated 12/18/70, Manalli mentions ‘Fainting spells’. Are they blackouts???

In another letter, he mentions needing money for a new set of tires which made me think of what Ken Narlow stated about the tire tracks at Berryessa,somebody that didnt have money to buy new tires.

bentley, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:45 am

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

To be published in 1984 (the fall no less), and he died in 1976? Wasn’t exactly rushing things along eh? When was this written?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:45 am

Ok I don’t know exactly what these might imply.

Might this cause someone to walk in a certain way?

I can’t decide if this is an analogy or not but would welcome guesses as to what ms is.

he is talking about a "twisted vertabrae" which affected his heart,brain,and blood pressure,and caused the fainting spells.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:46 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?

Looking at it in context it may be what he suggests his painting might mean, as in what you might interpret from looking at it.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:48 am

he is talking about a "twisted vertabrae" which affected his heart,brain,and blood pressure,and caused the fainting spells.

Hmm sounds like a multitude of problems, some of which might make you "shaky" on occassion.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:51 am

WOW!

In a letter dated July 31…(think its 1970"

Manalli writes…..

"GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"

I had to a double take. Again,I will post that tonight unless Seagull cares to do it sooner.

Seriously, this guy’s stuff. At every flipping turn there’s something else. What’s next? "Alternative lakeside Picnics: What to bring"

Is he referring to himself or is this a line from his (or any) book?

Looking at it in context it may be what he suggests his painting might mean, as in what you might interpret from looking at it.

I dont know, maybe. If all of his writing comparisons, the Joyce stuff,etc didnt look so much like Z, then I wouldn’t be so suspicious of it. The fact it sounds alot like the Belli letter is creepy

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:01 am

I dont know, maybe. If all of his writing comparisons, the Joyce stuff,etc didnt look so much like Z, then I wouldn’t be so suspicious of it. The fact it sounds alot like the Belli letter is creepy

Good point about the Belli letter. I was thinking that before when he quoted the Beatles "Help me if you can I’m feeling down". As for looking like Z in what he writes, there’s zynchrocitiy on tap and them some. What creeps me out is that a lot of the stuff he writes that’s like that makes sense in the context of what Zodiac wrote and usually provides a pretty instant correlation in your head.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:59 am

I dont know, maybe. If all of his writing comparisons, the Joyce stuff,etc didnt look so much like Z, then I wouldn’t be so suspicious of it. The fact it sounds alot like the Belli letter is creepy

Good point about the Belli letter. I was thinking that before when he quoted the Beatles "Help me if you can I’m feeling down". As for looking like Z in what he writes, there’s zynchrocitiy on tap and them some. What creeps me out is that a lot of the stuff he writes that’s like that makes sense in the context of what Zodiac wrote and usually provides a pretty instant correlation in your head.

If he just made a comment about his art being lethal or something to that effect,it would seem really harmless, or if he said God help people that see my art,etc But the fact he said ‘GOD SAVE ME’ and then added the part about ‘before I kill more’…thats more than chilling in my book…he is saying that he has killed before. Is he being honest? How long after the murder he was a suspect in,was this letter written?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:44 pm

I’m just thinking. I wonder if there’s anything in the fact that he wrote kill more rather than kill again, I would have said again rather than more if it had been me.

Hmmm "….There will be more"

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:10 pm

Not sure if he was lying,just joking,or was telling the truth,but Manalli is the only POI linked to the Zodiac case that has ever stated that he killed people. Am I correct?

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:27 pm

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

How could Manalli publish a book in the fall 1984 when he died in 1976?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:31 pm

Here, Manalli mentions writings from DANTE (Dantes Inferno). I know that Dante has been brought up before regarding Zodiac-

How could Manalli publish a book in the fall 1984 when he died in 1976?

Maybe a typo? Probably meant 74 or 64,I dont know,but Manalli was writing this guy since 1959 until his death

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:33 pm

TF, my thought on that is Manalli is referencing George Orwell’s novel 1984 in some manner. There is no doubt that Manalli was a heavy reader so that would make sense. I read 1984 too many years ago to remember what the Fall of that year was about.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:14 pm

Seagull, any luck with that Paradise book by Manalli? I can see some of the pages here-
http://books.google.com/books?id=364nAQ … CDsQ6AEwAQ

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Ed Neil posted this on an old archived zk thread:
"Carlstedt mentioned Manalli (though not by name) in the 3-5-1989 Press-Democrat story. I don’t know much about him other than the few tidbits in the paper, and whatever was mentioned in the blue book (and we all know how accurate that author is when it comes to reporting the truth)"

Anybody have that article?

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:29 pm

TF, my thought on that is Manalli is referencing George Orwell’s novel 1984 in some manner. There is no doubt that Manalli was a heavy reader so that would make sense. I read 1984 too many years ago to remember what the Fall of that year was about.

A typo?, or Ray Bradbury’s 1984? maybe…

Do you happen to know Manalli’s address/adresses in the timeframe 1963-1976 ?

And I remember reading somwere, a cupple of years ago, that after Manalli’s death, even though that Santa Rosa police suspected him in at least Kim Allen’s death, they would NOT go further with the investigation due to that "his family had be through enough" and that " they didn’t want to cause the family further pain" , or somthing to that effect.

OK I just found it in my filels (dated: 21-08-2008), but I didn’t add any link to the info, so I don’t know where I found it, or who wrote it:

"I recently found the name of that Santa Rosa Junior College arts instructor who had drawings of the murdered coeds in hog tied in sexual positions,the same man who was killed as a result from a car accident on Hwy 12 between Santa Rosa and Sebastapol:Fred Manalli. His name was mentioned from a old newspaper article,which is not available online or even from books,however. What is so bizzare about Fred Manalli aka Santa Rosa Junior College arts teacher ,from what I read on "Zodiac Unmasked" about him,is that he drew sketches of Kim Wendy Allen in a sadomasochistic pose,and himself being flogged with whips and chains. A missing item belonging to Kim Allen other than her clothing and a earring-a backpack. During itemizing the property found within the teachers automobile was a backpack that was owned by one of the Sonoma victims. Allen owned a backpack listed as missing,so it must of been hers. Why wasn’t the teacher held as a potential suspect even after his death? According to Sonoma Sheriffs Dept,not everything was itemized.only the items found in his pockets was returned to his next of kin. Most of this very conspicious evidence,if not concrete,was dropped for any further investigation by Sonoma Sheriffs Dept because they felt in no position to ruin Manalli’s reputation,for his family’s sake. What were investigators keeping back on this case?"

I really wonder why Manalli´s connection to the Kim W Allen murder case was covered up?

Do you have any information about this Seagull?

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:32 pm

I’ve usps mailed my request for Paradise and haven’t heard anything yet.

I have the 1989 article but it is difficult to read. I have it scanned but will crop it for posting.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:43 pm

Foreigner, he had one main address at 428 8th st in Santa Rosa. He had also lived in San Fran too in the early to mid 60’s. Here is a listing for him & his wife in 66-
http://www.sfgenealogy.com/sanfrancisco … 6_1225.pdf

and here from 64… http://www.sfgenealogy.com/sanfrancisco … 4_2488.pdf

And here is a pic of his Santa Rosa house sent by TRAV:

Peek thru the Pines anybody?? Actually had a chuckle about that with Trav last night,and after some research determined that some pine tree species grow at 2 feet per year. I guess its hard to know how old those trees are,but I dont think they were that high when he lived there. But if they were,then ‘peek thru the pines’ would be interesting

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:53 pm

It would be although personally, until I know better, the provenance of the pines comment remains with the pines card and the locations mentioned on it.

Deb,

Was Manalli’s connection to the SRHM discovered before or after his death?

TF – thanks for posting, interesting stuff.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:59 pm

TF, my thought on that is Manalli is referencing George Orwell’s novel 1984 in some manner. There is no doubt that Manalli was a heavy reader so that would make sense. I read 1984 too many years ago to remember what the Fall of that year was about.

A typo?, or Ray Bradbury’s 1984? maybe…

Do you happen to know Manalli’s address/adresses in the timeframe 1963-1976 ?

And I remember reading somwere, a cupple of years ago, that after Manalli’s death, even though that Santa Rosa police suspected him in at least Kim Allen’s death, they would NOT go further with the investigation due to that "his family had be through enough" and that " they didn’t want to cause the family further pain" , or somthing to that effect.

OK I just found it in my filels (dated: 21-08-2008), but I didn’t add any link to the info, so I don’t know where I found it, or who wrote it:

"I recently found the name of that Santa Rosa Junior College arts instructor who had drawings of the murdered coeds in hog tied in sexual positions,the same man who was killed as a result from a car accident on Hwy 12 between Santa Rosa and Sebastapol:Fred Manalli. His name was mentioned from a old newspaper article,which is not available online or even from books,however. What is so bizzare about Fred Manalli aka Santa Rosa Junior College arts teacher ,from what I read on "Zodiac Unmasked" about him,is that he drew sketches of Kim Wendy Allen in a sadomasochistic pose,and himself being flogged with whips and chains. A missing item belonging to Kim Allen other than her clothing and a earring-a backpack. During itemizing the property found within the teachers automobile was a backpack that was owned by one of the Sonoma victims. Allen owned a backpack listed as missing,so it must of been hers. Why wasn’t the teacher held as a potential suspect even after his death? According to Sonoma Sheriffs Dept,not everything was itemized.only the items found in his pockets was returned to his next of kin. Most of this very conspicious evidence,if not concrete,was dropped for any further investigation by Sonoma Sheriffs Dept because they felt in no position to ruin Manalli’s reputation,for his family’s sake. What were investigators keeping back on this case?"

I really wonder why Manalli´s connection to the Kim W Allen murder case was covered up?

Do you have any information about this Seagull?

Some of that post is correct, most is speculation. I am always suspicious of people who post things like that with no documentation or references and tend to think that they let their imaginations run away with what little is true.

I have posted before that there were sketches found among Manalli’s belongings. They were found in his home and not his automobile. As a matter of fact he had a van not a car. The drawings were found by his ex-wife and a man named Don Emblen who were cleaning out his home sometime after his death. They were the people who turned the drawings over to the sheriff’s department. I do not know how they knew the drawings were of Kim Allen unless they had been labled in some way. I confirmed this information with Butch Carlstedt when I spoke with him in about 2006.

Manalli’s parents lived in Illinois it’s hard to imagine that ruining Manalli’s reputation in California would have much effect on his parents. I believe that the main reason Manalli was not named is because he was dead and the dead can not defend themselves. There may have been a reasonable explanation for the drawings but since he is not alive to answer to that he can not named as the suspect. Maybe the parents were informed of the suspicions either by LE or the ex-wife and told LE they would sue if Fred’s name surfaced, accused of being a murderer. I just don’t know for sure.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:10 pm

"Another suspect, Siebe said, was
a middle-aged, married man who
died in a traffic accident in the 70’s.
In investigating the death,
detectives found evidence that
showed the man knew about the
murders. But there wasn’t enough
evidence to close the case, Siebe
said.
Carlstedt believes that man and
another man also dead, were
responsible for al least most of the
murders.
"After those two guys died, there
was nothing. No more female
homicide. I’d bet money it was
them, but it can never be proven."

Seagull,I found the text of the article. Did Carlstedt sound as convinced to you of Manalli’s guilt as he sounds in this article? And do you know the name of this 2nd man that Carlstedt thought had killed some of the girls?

patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:15 pm

Ok I don’t know exactly what these might imply.

Might this cause someone to walk in a certain way?

I can’t decide if this is an analogy or not but would welcome guesses as to what ms is.

he is talking about a "twisted vertabrae" which affected his heart,brain,and blood pressure,and caused the fainting spells.

Wow, I’ve been gone a few days and come back to "Zodiac killer mystery solved." Not sure whether I’m kidding about that or not! Pretty remarkable stuff here. :cheers:

I am nearly certain "ms" is shorthand for "manuscript." He was an English teacher and writer wasn’t he?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:21 pm

Yeah he was a writer, and English teacher. Also, plays too I think.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:39 pm

Ahhh good call on manuscript, makes sense.

EDIT: Just to add, other than the literary end of things this guy was artistic with his hands as well. I wonder how well drawn those drawings were. Is it possible they were good enough for the girl to be recognised. Also, he bought thrift store furniture and ‘done it up’ so he seems to be a bit of an all rounder creatively or at least a varied experimenter, oh and there’s the paintings too. That would be in line with my suspicions about Zodiac creative nature.

patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Yeah he was a writer, and English teacher. Also, plays too I think.

It has to be ms=manuscript, especially since that fits the context of what was written.

Sounds like he exchanged his proof-reading/editing skills for something in return with "her."

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:33 pm

"Another suspect, Siebe said, was
a middle-aged, married man who
died in a traffic accident in the 70’s.
In investigating the death,
detectives found evidence that
showed the man knew about the
murders. But there wasn’t enough
evidence to close the case, Siebe
said.
Carlstedt believes that man and
another man also dead, were
responsible for al least most of the
murders.
"After those two guys died, there
was nothing. No more female
homicide. I’d bet money it was
them, but it can never be proven."

Seagull,I found the text of the article. Did Carlstedt sound as convinced to you of Manalli’s guilt as he sounds in this article? And do you know the name of this 2nd man that Carlstedt thought had killed some of the girls?

Thanks for the adresses Morf:)

And thanks for the response Seagull:)

Concerning your question that I highlighted in red:

I belive it is possible that the man in question might be:

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Phillip S Griffith
Name: Phillip S Griffith
Social Security #: 565648856
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 16 Jan 1947
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma

WHY do I belive that?

Because:

Phillip S Griffith was only 29 years old and died the very same day as Fred Mannali
Phillip S Griffith died the very same Death Place: Sonoma, as Fred Manalli
Phillip S Griffith was originally from Illinois, just like Fred Manalli
Phillip S Griffith divorced in Sonoma county in 1974

SO…I belive that it is possible that Phillip S Griffith was in the same car/van as Fred Manalli.

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Phillip S Griffith
Name: Phillip S Griffith
Social Security #: 565648856
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 16 Jan 1947
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma

Social Security Death Index
about Phillip Griffith
Name: Phillip Griffith
SSN: 565-64-8856
Born: 16 Jan 1947
Died: Aug 1976
State (Year) SSN issued: California (1962

BUT, then again… I might be wrong about this possible connection…

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:47 pm

Good job TF.

Although..and I could be wrong here…wasn’t it only Manalli that died in the crash? and the passenger survived.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:50 pm

Griffith was in a motorcycle accident in a different part of Sonoma County. Manalli was the only one in his vehicle, the woman he hit was not killed.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:02 pm

whilst we’re on the subject of vehicles. Although at the time of his death Manalli had a van, in one of his letters in reference to "Wolfey’s" preferred mode of transport being a motorbike Manalli says that as for him he "brandished cars".

I thought that was slightly interesting in so much as it’s another reference to something whereby Manalli describes something as though it were a weapon as he did when describing a pen.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:30 pm

Some more misc. Manalli quotes that may be of interest. These all have to do with his mental & physical shape and conditions as reported by him.

Trav asked, could any of these medical issues make Manalli walk a bit weird? Also, regarding his ‘fainting spells’, could they be some sort of black outs?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:37 pm

This post will contain all of Manallis threats, violent statements, or his discussion of violent acts:

Best for last:

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:48 am

About the "lovely centrifuge thing" that would have made Blake envious – here’s some of William Blake’s illustrations of John Milton’s Paradise Lost. Check out the first one down on the right side of the page, titled Satan Watching the Endearments of Adam and Eve. Familiar theme?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Blake%27s_illustrations_of_Paradise_Lost

Some of the Santa Rosa girls were thrown down embankments and some posters were speculating on how the killer could have managed to throw them so far from the road, is this right? If so, the answer could be by using centrifugal force from swinging them around and round, by the wrists or ankles, then letting go when he got going fast enough. If the victim has been hog-tied, then just need to loop a rope through the bindings, hold onto both rope ends while swinging, then let go of one end of the rope when the body is released. Any reasonably fit adult male could do that, provided there was enough space. Maybe 20 – 25 feet? I guess that could count as "creative", as Manalli writes? Definitely "centrifugal".

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:13 am

Since it hasn’t been said, I guess I’ll mention it here.

FM’s "God save me – catch me before I kill more."

Made me think of fellow Illinoisian the so-called Lipstick Killer:

Thinking about it in the context of the message it’s in, he’s talking about how he’s not able to write or come up with anything creative. I think it could be a clever (demented) way of saying that he’s killing time.

Which made me think of: "In 1959 a lot of people were killing time. Kit and Holly were killing people."

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:22 pm

Moving right along,yet another possible connection between Manalli & Zodiac….

In this statement by Manalli-

He mentions that his artwork would have made BLAKE envious. Is he talking about famed writer & artists, William Blake??? Because,if he is, William Blake’s name has come up before in Zodiac discussions.

Here’s one example-
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showth … p?t=119051
In the link, AKWILKS is discussing Blake with other people. AK wrote:
" I never thought that the Zodiac 340 First Stage Solution (from Robert Graysmith-1979 FBI File-Kite And Other Old ZK Board Researchers) showed possible influences from poet William Blake, in particular from this poem, until you mentioned it"

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:49 pm

Someone has trouble with at least one double.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:08 am

Yes, Manalli must be talking about William Blake; otherwise he would have included the first name of whatever other Blake he meant so as not to confuse. In this writing Morf posted above, though, he’s talking about something he painted. I’m thinking it’s something like the picture that was found among his things that supposedly depicted one of the Santa Rosa hitchhikers.

Okay, my idea about the centrifuge method of tossing someone over an embankment might be kinda ridiculous. "Centrifugal" and "centripetal" are words used by Northrop Frye to describe his style. He was a Canadian literary critic who lived from 1912 to 1991 and was heavily inspired by William Blake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Frye
Maybe that’s what Manalli meant.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:24 am

In this writing Morf posted above, though, he’s talking about something he painted. I’m thinking it’s something like the picture that was found among his things that supposedly depicted one of the Santa Rosa hitchhikers.

Thats really good.

I think this letter in which he talks about painting was from July 31,1970. Any Santa Rosa area victims from around that date,or just before? And what do you think he means when he says "I am not going to send it to you-it might mean something"?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:33 am

In one of his letters, Manalli mentions ‘slaves’. No mention of afterlife….He says something like "the guy has released one of his slaves"(something like that). I dont have it in front of me,but I have it set aside to be posted tonight. Also found a couple more instances of him using the word ‘shall’. Show me any other Zodiac POI or Suspect that uses the word SHALL as much as this guy.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:36 am

Yes, 6’3" is too tall and at 185# he wouldn’t have had a big stomach. Nor does he look a bit Welsh.

He looks good for murder in Sonoma County but not Zodiac.

I’m just quoting Deb for this one because her comment was about weight and this is relevant.

Manalli:

"with rare exceptions, I’ve grown a bit flabby – you probably wouldn’t recognize me – to the point that I’ve taken up hula-hooping. I’m not very good though. Just don’t have that motion. I trust that you won’t find too much flabbiness in my prose"

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:40 am

I think this letter in which he talks about painting was from July 31,1970. Any Santa Rosa area victims from around that date,or just before?

Not within the SRHM anyway. They were 72-73.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:46 am

Yes, 6’3" is too tall and at 185# he wouldn’t have had a big stomach. Nor does he look a bit Welsh.

He looks good for murder in Sonoma County but not Zodiac.

I’m just quoting Deb for this one because her comment was about weight and this is relevant.

Manalli:

"with rare exceptions, I’ve grown a bit flabby – you probably wouldn’t recognize me – to the point that I’ve taken up hula-hooping. I’m not very good though. Just don’t have that motion. I trust that you won’t find too much flabbiness in my prose"

I am trying NOT to get caught up in seeing if the various Zodiac POI’s or suspects look like the Zodiac description. I am looking rather at things that match up from other standpoints as far as writing,demands & hopes of being published,or being ‘seen’ by the public in some way. And most of all, state of mind. It can NOT be debated, Manalli discussed murder,violence,etc in his letters. Was he trying to sound dramatic,like a mysterious writer? Not sure,but the threats & statements he makes cant be ignored.Zodiac or not,this guy may have killed people. And how about his constant mention of his deteriorating mental health,writing that he has mental issues. At one point, Mr. Curley even writes to him, "something seems to have happened to your psyche".

6ft3,DOES seem to be taller than all Zodiac descriptions(still shorter than Hartnell). But if he did put on some weight,that would be more in line. Also, glasses are a plus,but again,I really have given up on just looking at suspect’s physcial descriptions. If they math up with Z,and also look like the sketch,teriffic.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:47 am

I think this letter in which he talks about painting was from July 31,1970. Any Santa Rosa area victims from around that date,or just before?

Not within the SRHM anyway. They were 72-73.

Any other possible victims from summer of 70 that he may have ‘painted’

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:34 am

How about March 1970?

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ienne-blau

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:48 am

How about March 1970?

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ienne-blau

Rope marks on the wrists,no sexual assault. Whats your feeling on the Blau case?

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:10 am

The one article says that Eva was not sexually assault not that she didn’t have sex. She could have had consentual sex and maybe a condom was worn.

I think that Eva death was very suspicious but after it was learned she had been a drug addict and that drugs were probably involved with her death it seems like LE quit investigating. The cause of death was given as a mescaline overdose but she still had food in her stomach. Mescaline is known for making the user vomit after ingestion so that seems a bit weird.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:22 am

wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:35 am

Found this post by Howard Davis on an old thread:

"I am researching the possibility that "rh" could stand for R.H.Blyth,a poet that lived in Japan, who promulgated an Oriental form of poetry called Haiku.
There were groups in S.F.,Berkeley,Los Angeles and elsewhere,that were very interested in R.H.s work and the Haiku form of poetry in the 60’s.
I have several reasons for holding this premise up for inspection,but I am ready to drop it PDQ!I want to see what you think.
The Haiku could explain the unusual structure and content of the desk poem and that mysterious rh at the end.
We do know Z was into the Mikado,a play with a Japanese background.There is that oriental like character in the 1/29/74 note"

If Manalli mentioned BLYTH in one of his letters,that would be interesting.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:01 am

I was curious so I thought I’d see what this looked like. The height thing I can’t account for but I wouldn’t let facial features rule him out. I can see similarities. Particularly regarding the nose on the composite. If you look at it logically the I think the composite is trying to depict a long (or more on the long side than the short) nose and that would fit with Manalli. I’ve long pondered the nose thing as I’m sure we all have and wondered what the profile would look like.

It makes sense to me that the nose should have more of a pronounced profile than not because going by the length in the composite a flat nose at that length would look really weird.

His chin is interesting as well. It’s a reasonably robust looking thing with a mound and a dimple. A feature that usually has the effect of making someone look heavy set or a ‘bit of a bruiser’ (think Marv in Sin City).

Last but not least, the glasses. I can attest to the fact that wearing thick rimmed glasses can do two relevant things to a person appearence. Providing a stronger focal point than the features, they can detract from things like a prominent nose or heavy eyebrows.

EDIT: Bear in mind this image is from 1957

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:15 am

FWIW

July 31 1970 – One year anniversary of the first zodiac letters, July 31 1969

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:20 am

Curly and circle dots anyone?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:27 am

Trav,I agree, nothing to account for a height difference,but I did note the same similar facial features and of course,noted of Manalli’s mention of his ‘weight gain’. Would like to see if he has glasses in any of his photos. I am trying(its a longshot)to get a photo of him from 1968-1976.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:38 am

It would be good to see another photo – Good luck.

So….though I’d try and focus on the more unique features of Zodiacs writing. Can’t get more unique than a one-off (you will excuse the pun). I thought this would prove elusive as it’s a unique ampersand from Zodiac and I was pretty sure I’d seen all of Manalli’s and didn’t recall any looking like it.

I was right…but then….AWWW come on Freddie, what are you doing to me. As in the regular zodiac ampersand a similarly constructed letter was found rather then an ampersand, it was Manalli’s lowecase t’s. This time it’s an O and as far as I can tell it’s a one off for Him as well.

Direction and flow very similar.

BTW I’m posting snippets as it were, not because I’m running out of similarities, on the contrary, there are too many and many more to come. I’m just having trouble with where to start lol.

EDIT: That ampersand is from page 2 of the bus bomb letter BTW

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:42 am

I also liked the half w’s you posted that seem to be very similar between Zodiac & Manalli

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:44 am

Yes, they just keep coming don’t they.

I’m trying to make it harder for myself to find things but Freddie is being "too clever" for me lol.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:38 pm

RE: Glasses

I think we only know for sure that Zodiac wore glasses at the Stine killing. It’s possible that he did not wear glasses all the time or at all in his everyday life. As Trav said in an earlier post the glasses could have been worn by Zodiac as a focal diversion from his facial features.

With Manalli having taught at San Quentin Prison I have no doubt that he learned a thing or two about criminal activity. Disguises, even as simple as wearing glasses, may have been discussed or written about by one of his prisoner students. Manalli taught basic english and writing classes and as I recall teachers say to write what you know.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:00 pm

RE: Glasses

I think we only know for sure that Zodiac wore glasses at the Stine killing. It’s possible that he did not wear glasses all the time or at all in his everyday life. As Trav said in an earlier post the glasses could have been worn by Zodiac as a focal diversion from his facial features.

With Manalli having taught at San Quentin Prison I have no doubt that he learned a thing or two about criminal activity. Disguises, even as simple as wearing glasses, may have been discussed or written about by one of his prisoner students. Manalli taught basic english and writing classes and as I recall teachers say to write what you know.

Good points Seagull. Personally, I think whomever Z was, he likely wore glasses. I base that not just on the fact of the Stine sketch,but also at Berryessa,he apprently had clipson sunglasses over his regulare glasses. I dont know if Z would need to wear fake glasses if he already had a mask on his face. Then again,maybe he was thinking ahead in case his mask somehow came off and he wanted some insurance. The mystery guy seen by the Berryessa girls(if that guy was indeed Zodiac)did not have glasses. I dont have the report in front of me,but didnt somebody describe him as being 6ft-6ft2??

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:29 pm

RE: Glasses

I think we only know for sure that Zodiac wore glasses at the Stine killing. It’s possible that he did not wear glasses all the time or at all in his everyday life. As Trav said in an earlier post the glasses could have been worn by Zodiac as a focal diversion from his facial features.

With Manalli having taught at San Quentin Prison I have no doubt that he learned a thing or two about criminal activity. Disguises, even as simple as wearing glasses, may have been discussed or written about by one of his prisoner students. Manalli taught basic english and writing classes and as I recall teachers say to write what you know.

Good points Seagull. Personally, I think whomever Z was, he likely wore glasses. I base that not just on the fact of the Stine sketch,but also at Berryessa,he apprently had clipson sunglasses over his regulare glasses. I dont know if Z would need to wear fake glasses if he already had a mask on his face. Then again,maybe he was thinking ahead in case his mask somehow came off and he wanted some insurance. The mystery guy seen by the Berryessa girls(if that guy was indeed Zodiac)did not have glasses. I dont have the report in front of me,but didnt somebody describe him as being 6ft-6ft2??

You can take it straight from Hartnell…Zodiac did not appear to be wearing glasses on his head. Any other reports are second-hand info, and misinterpreted.

If Bryan could see the guys hair, I would think he would see regular glasses. Seems he was looking quite closely. Mike as well in 1969 reported "no glasses".

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:54 pm

What Tahoe said!

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:22 pm

OKAY,so we are looking for a guy that either DID or DID NOT wear glasses. That narrows it down

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:31 pm

I was curious so I thought I’d see what this looked like. The height thing I can’t account for but I wouldn’t let facial features rule him out. I can see similarities. Particularly regarding the nose on the composite. If you look at it logically the I think the composite is trying to depict a long (or more on the long side than the short) nose and that would fit with Manalli. I’ve long pondered the nose thing as I’m sure we all have and wondered what the profile would look like.

It makes sense to me that the nose should have more of a pronounced profile than not because going by the length in the composite a flat nose at that length would look really weird.

His chin is interesting as well. It’s a reasonably robust looking thing with a mound and a dimple. A feature that usually has the effect of making someone look heavy set or a ‘bit of a bruiser’ (think Marv in Sin City).

Last but not least, the glasses. I can attest to the fact that wearing thick rimmed glasses can do two relevant things to a person appearence. Providing a stronger focal point than the features, they can detract from things like a prominent nose or heavy eyebrows.

EDIT: Bear in mind this image is from 1957

For what its worth, the 3 girls at Berryessa described the mystery guy watching them as being 6ft-6ft2,certainly closer to Manalli’s height(if the guy the girls seen was zodiac)
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html

patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:48 pm

What do you all think about Manalli’s voice? Would someone in their thirties who learned to speak in Illinois sound similar to what is known about Zodiac’s voice.

Reportedly, Zodiac sounded young (early 20s; Manalli was early 30s); he had some type drawl. He may have sounded similar to Richard Gaikowski (based on Nancy the dispatcher’s remembrance).

What have I left out concerning voice?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:07 pm

What do you all think about Manalli’s voice? Would someone in their thirties who learned to speak in Illinois sound similar to what is known about Zodiac’s voice.

Reportedly, Zodiac sounded young (early 20s; Manalli was early 30s); he had some type drawl. He may have sounded similar to Richard Gaikowski (based on Nancy the dispatcher’s remembrance).

What have I left out concerning voice?

Yeah,I think Hartnell described his voice as being like a student’s, and Officer Slaight said Z sounded like he was early 20’s. I wish there was a recording of Manalli, not that it will prove anything. Unfortunately, the ‘voice’ is probably the least valuable clue about Zodiac. Three people talked to him 43 years ago. One of them is dead. Not sure how reliable voice recognition would be now.

I am not sold on Manalli being Zodiac. I need more evidence,but his writing style,construction,and subject matter reminds me alot of Zodiac. He’s definitely got my attention. On the other hand, I have alot of respect for Sherwood’s handwriting examination,and he states without a doubt, that Zodiac wrote the desktop poem and Bates letters,therefore whomever Zodiac was, he HAD TO BE in Riverside 66-67.I also have respect for Traveler’s first class writing comparison between Zodiac,and the desktop,and he made me believe that the desktop poem WAS FROM ZODIAC. I have seen Zero evidence that Manalli ever was there. In addition,I personally lean towards Zodiac killing Bates & writing the letters, and personally,I think her killer was around her age of 18 in fall of 1966,and therefore would have been around 21 or 22 in fall of 69 when Z was killing,and would line up well with the voice descriptions from Slaight & Hartnell. Remember, there was a driver in 1970 that terrorized female drivers in Santa Rosa that was very much like the Johns case. The Santa Rosa police said he was 23, and from Vallejo. They let him go. He would also line up well with a fellow classmate of Cheri’s. I have 3 top suspects,one being Manalli,one being ‘Jimmy’, and the third being ‘Al’. The first two I cant place in Riverside. The third,I can place in Riverside in 66-67 and in Vallejo up to 74,so thats what I have to wrestle with.

patinky, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:28 pm

What do you all think about Manalli’s voice? Would someone in their thirties who learned to speak in Illinois sound similar to what is known about Zodiac’s voice.

Reportedly, Zodiac sounded young (early 20s; Manalli was early 30s); he had some type drawl. He may have sounded similar to Richard Gaikowski (based on Nancy the dispatcher’s remembrance).

What have I left out concerning voice?

Yeah,I think Hartnell described his voice as being like a student’s, and Officer Slaight said Z sounded like he was early 20’s. I wish there was a recording of Manalli, not that it will prove anything. Unfortunately, the ‘voice’ is probably the least valuable clue about Zodiac. Three people talked to him 43 years ago. One of them is dead. Not sure how reliable voice recognition would be now.

I am not sold on Manalli being Zodiac. I need more evidence,but his writing style,construction,and subject matter reminds me alot of Zodiac. He’s definitely got my attention. On the other hand, I have alot of respect for Sherwood’s handwriting examination,and he states without a doubt, that Zodiac wrote the desktop poem and Bates letters,therefore whomever Zodiac was, he HAD TO BE in Riverside 66-67.I also have respect for Traveler’s first class writing comparison between Zodiac,and the desktop,and he made me believe that the desktop poem WAS FROM ZODIAC. I have seen Zero evidence that Manalli ever was there. In addition,I personally lean towards Zodiac killing Bates & writing the letters, and personally,I think her killer was around her age of 18 in fall of 1966,and therefore would have been around 21 or 22 in fall of 69 when Z was killing,and would line up well with the voice descriptions from Slaight & Hartnell. Remember, there was a driver in 1970 that terrorized female drivers in Santa Rosa that was very much like the Johns case. The Santa Rosa police said he was 23, and from Vallejo. They let him go. He would also line up well with a fellow classmate of Cheri’s. I have 3 top suspects,one being Manalli,one being ‘Jimmy’, and the third being ‘Al’. The first two I cant place in Riverside. The third,I can place in Riverside in 66-67 and in Vallejo up to 74,so thats what I have to wrestle with.

I would totally agree with the theory that Cheri Jo Bates’ killer was her age, likely a student, and how that and more tallies with the statements you gave above.

As someone else stated somewhere on this board, I don’t think Manalli is likely Zodiac but then he seems good for some of the homicides in California at that time. What I find compelling about Manalli is his vast knowledge of English lit and how that corresponds to much of what the Zodiac wrote; I also see a lot of similarities in Manalli’s writing (as much as a layman can do so via an Internet copy of, probably, third or fourth generation copies. )

Sounds like you have three good possibilities.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:53 pm

What I recall abou Z voice was flat no accent no drawl monotone robotic measured even yong student twenties. IMO the killer of Bates would likely have been 19 to 25 much older or young and he would not have fit into the environment.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:06 pm

It seems weird to me to not investigate someone who is possibly a multiple murderer because they are dead and it might embarrass their family. The feelings of the victims families seems more important to me.

I’d like to believe that is not true. It is certainly a curious statement.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:50 pm

It seems weird to me to not investigate someone who is possibly a multiple murderer because they are dead and it might embarrass their family. The feelings of the victims families seems more important to me.

I’d like to believe that is not true. It is certainly a curious statement.

Manalli was suspected in at least one murder. I wonder what police would think if they saw these letters? The guy mentions multiple times murder or violence, along with his dwindling mental state.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:09 pm

When I first got these letters back in late 2010 I contacted the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Office and told them I had them and asked if they would like copies. They quickly said yes and I copied all and sent them. They were not aware that the letters exisited. Later when a discussion of DNA came up I asked if there was any chance that Manalli could be exhumed and his DNA compared to DNA gathered from the victims I was told it was a possiblity.

There was semen found on two of the SRHM victims, Kim Allen and Therese Walsh.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:13 pm

wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html

This thread also mentions ‘Lord Jim’ which I think Manalli said somewhere he was also reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Jim

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:16 pm

I still can’t believe that with the reported drawings of one of the SRHM victims and the backpack of one of them turning up in this guys car, that LE weren’t all over him like a rash, dead or not. I don’t suppose we know who’s backpack it was supposed to be do we?

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:21 pm

Kim Allen was carrying a backpack. It is noted here-

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html

The last document on the page, item #5.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:42 pm

I still can’t believe that with the reported drawings of one of the SRHM victims and the backpack of one of them turning up in this guys car, that LE weren’t all over him like a rash, dead or not. I don’t suppose we know who’s backpack it was supposed to be do we?

The drawing and backpack were not found in Manalli’s van, they were found in his home by his ex-wife and Don Emblen. They were found weeks after Manalli’s death when his home was being cleared out. This is what Butch Carlstedt told me.

FWIW I have been told that the reason there was no publicity or announcement about Manalli’s possible involvement in Kim’s death is that SRJC did not want the negative publicity. I find that easier to believe than sparing Manalli’s parents any embarrassment or whatever. Remember Manalli could not be charged with anything, he was dead. He did not have a criminal record of any kind.

traveller1st, Subject: HANDWRITING Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:58 pm

A quick synopsis of where I am with this so far.

There’s a lot more to do for one lol.

I’m trying to find something to rule him but to be honest I think it may come down to the wire and be beyond my amateur tinkering. I’m looking at Zodiac’s less well known traits but that at least is something good to come from this. It’s made me see things that I will use for future comparisons against other POI’s writings.

This guy’s writing has had me all over the place. It’s like following a dwindling trail of breadcrumbs and when you think that’s it done you trip over a loaf. As far as the Zodiac’s missives are concerned Manalli’s writing has been like a missing link. It seems to contain elements from all of the missives even the little peculiarities. Every little weird line shift or letter or spacing, every little tick, flick or stroke – they all appear.

I thought I’d done it. I thought I’d finally found something that I couldn’t account for in the Zodiac stuff. I’ll illustrate it in later work but basically it’s a little flick that Manalli puts on the crossbar of his lowercase t’s. It’s pretty much a running theme through all his writing no matter what the style or year. I can find things that look like a flick but I can’t say for definite if it counts and given it’s prevalence in Manalli’s writing I would have expected it to be somewhere.

There is reasonable evidence for it in the citizen letter (more to come on that letter BTW) but as for the bulk of the Zodiac stuff, nothing that would qualify.

Until…….LOAF! dagnammit.

It’s in the Count Marco letter and it appears only once in the line "suggest you refer him to a shrink". It’s in the word "to". The reason that Manalli puts that flick on his l/c t’s (IMHO) is that it’s an active remnant from joining the t to the next letter. In the Marco letter the author does just that and yes…..Manalli does it too and it’s a match. There are other elements of the Marco letter that appear in Manalli’s handwriting – quite a few actually and we’re talking right down to the shape of the flicks on the end of some of the hand-drawn lines.

So that’s roughly where it’s at so far. There are other comparisons to come and have been started but seriously, another analogy, it’s like putting together multiple, mixed up, jigsaws. I’ll be working on one thing and then "oh, that’s from the dripping pen card" or "that’s from the citizen letter" etc etc, right across the whole range of styles.

Despite all of this, I’m still not convinced because we basically more compelling evidence of a different nature. Locations etc.

Sorry for the long post but I can’t convey enough how unusual this guy’s handwriting has been beyond mere visual similarities. Regardless of the outcome it’s been and continues to be very intriguing and a learning experience and in that respect I’d like to thank Deb again for procuring the letters.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:08 pm

I still can’t believe that with the reported drawings of one of the SRHM victims and the backpack of one of them turning up in this guys car, that LE weren’t all over him like a rash, dead or not. I don’t suppose we know who’s backpack it was supposed to be do we?

The drawing and backpack were not found in Manalli’s van, they were found in his home by his ex-wife and Don Emblen. They were found weeks after Manalli’s death when his home was being cleared out. This is what Butch Carlstedt told me.

FWIW I have been told that the reason there was no publicity or announcement about Manalli’s possible involvement in Kim’s death is that SRJC did not want the negative publicity. I find that easier to believe than sparing Manalli’s parents any embarrassment or whatever. Remember Manalli could not be charged with anything, he was dead. He did not have a criminal record of any kind.

Ah ok thanks Deb.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:19 pm

Kim Allen was carrying a backpack. It is noted here-

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html

The last document on the page, item #5.

Her backpack was found with her though so it can’t be the one found in Manalli’s house.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:00 pm

wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html

This thread also mentions ‘Lord Jim’ which I think Manalli said somewhere he was also reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Jim

Joseph Conrad IS mentioned by Manalli more than once in his letters. Conrad wrote LORD JIM & HEART OF DARKNESS.

So many writers & subjects mentioned by Manalli have been mentioned by people on zodiac forums already. People have seen the clues and have noted them. Now you have Manalli’s writing similarity to zodiac’s and his mentions of violence,murder,and his own mental health. He was a suspect in one or more Santa Rosa murders. You would be hard pressed to find another POI with all these tid bits

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:14 pm

Kim Allen was carrying a backpack. It is noted here-

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html

The last document on the page, item #5.

Her backpack was found with her though so it can’t be the one found in Manalli’s house.

No! That was a list of things that Kim was known to be wearing and carrying when she was last seen. She was found nude with none of her belongings. The only personal item she had on her person was one earring. All of the SRHM victims were found nude with none of their belongings present.

Read this.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.c … eport.html

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:22 pm

Seagull, wasnt there another victim or victims found missing one earring?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:24 pm

Ah of course.

lol, sorry it was just when I read the report it seemed so detailed I thought the items must have been in possession of LE. My bad. Trust me to overlook one of the main points about the crimes – naked bar one earring.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:33 pm

wow.

Oh I’d say there’s a good chance he read it alright. Not least because DC is in it but also every thing and everyone else he name dropped including, Faulkner, Katherine Anne Porter, Eudora Welty, and Heart of darkness is in it which Manalli lists as one of his favourites

There was a thread at zk.com on ‘HEART OF DARKNESS’,one of Manalli’s favorites:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/a/he … t2407.html

This thread also mentions ‘Lord Jim’ which I think Manalli said somewhere he was also reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Jim

Joseph Conrad IS mentioned by Manalli more than once in his letters. Conrad wrote LORD JIM & HEART OF DARKNESS.

So many writers & subjects mentioned by Manalli have been mentioned by people on zodiac forums already. People have seen the clues and have noted them. Now you have Manalli’s writing similarity to zodiac’s and his mentions of violence,murder,and his own mental health. He was a suspect in one or more Santa Rosa murders. You would be hard pressed to find another POI with all these tid bits

Doug Oswell wrote this:
"One thing that I would like to mention is that we didn’t get to literary allusion,
but both of these killers were very keenly into getting hints about themselves
through the use of literary works, great literary works like Joseph Conrad’s The
Secret Agent, The Mikado, The Exorcist; Moby Dick, in the case of the Zodiac
killer, and particularly two of the Wagnerian classics, the Ring, and the opera,
Parsifal. Those were two operas. Interestingly, both killers alluded to opera."

Manalli mentioned Conrad,and Moby Dick in his letters

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:50 pm

You would be hard pressed to find another POI with all these tid bits

It would certainly seem that way. See what I mean about ‘missing link’ it’s like he fills in gaps. Even in other people’s theories that weren’t about him.

Lets not forget Shakespeare. "To thine own self be true"

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:59 pm

Seagull, wasnt there another victim or victims found missing one earring?

There was one earring found at the scene where Maureen Sterling and Yvonne Weber were found, also a necklace.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:03 pm

I was wondering about this.

The red what? uniform?

Anywho – thought shrinker was a slightly unusual term for a shrink so I googled. Found this. No connection and don’t think there’s anything that interesting about it other than it it’s from the right the right time period and "The Shrinker" is a villain.

CBS Saturday morning cartoon series from 1966

[flash(425,350)] http://www.youtube.com/v/fvKEZtGOvbc [/flash]

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:31 pm

I was wondering the same thing. RED PHANTOM perhaps?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:35 pm

Could be. Red with rage he was.

If red / clean?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:41 pm

The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word ‘the’, he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.

Yup, you’re right.

I’ve had a quick look and he does it for the words the, this, and that. Haven’t checked it all but that seems pretty much the case throughout. Actually it’s any word that starts with ‘th’.

This has changed – there is an instance of the word ‘this’ all lowercase. I’ll post it when I spot it again.

Found it.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:18 am

It’s odd to me that he never says anything about the Zodiac case. You’d think that the real killer would be obsessed with his own publicity. IIRC Denis Rader BTK was known to follow the news of his crimes, but his wife just thought he was some nut on a message board :tongue: a guy who just liked keeping up on the news.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:26 am

It’s odd to me that he never says anything about the Zodiac case. You’d think that the real killer would be obsessed with his own publicity. IIRC Denis Rader BTK was known to follow the news of his crimes, but his wife just thought he was some nut on a message board :tongue: a guy who just liked keeping up on the news.

I’d wondered about that too but then he rarely mentions anything outside of himself in his letters. It’s all about him, which for my money, works just as well if you’re a serial killer. There’s also the fact that the drawing and backpack and wot not were unearthed in his house after he was dead so maybe he just didn’t like to share everything?

Of course there’s always the possibility that he did mention the Zodiac. Just that he only did it in those special letters to the newspapers lol

EDIT: Actually thinking about it, the letters we have are centred around his love affair with Dan Curley but he makes reference to other letters where the ‘tone’ was less than civil – we just don’t know what was in those. Or how he worded things.

EDIT2: Actually there is a precedent for Zodiac writing letters that don’t mention himself if you consider the citizen letter or the Marco letter genuine or even the SLA letter.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:12 am

Started out looking at San Quentin and it led me to this.

http://www.sanfranciscoactorsworkshop.c … lcome.html

The workshop had performed Waiting for Godot at SQ in 1957 which kicked off the drama workshops there (for that era at least).

This guy’s name came up – Herbert Blau – Don’t know yet if it’s any relation to Eva Blau. Deb checked out the ancestry records – no Robert listed as far as I can tell (Eva’s Dad). Would be weird if they were related.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Blau

Anyway as I said this was found because I was looking at SQ in relation to Manalli. Turns out there is another link to Manalli in the SFAW – James Schevill. Schevill is also listed as being on the board of directors and Schevill was one of the professors that presided over manalli’s oral at "the spooky cocktail lounge".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Schevill

The SFAW didn’t perform the Mikado.

Article from 2008 about Godot at SQ.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c … 14SN4R.DTL

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:05 am

lhttp://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/allen.html
This is a very nice website for these girls, Seagull.
These articles about Kim Allen say that the police believe that her killer fell over the embankment and landed with such force that he likely injured himself pretty badly, maybe breaking his leg. The embankment was off a one lane road where there was not much room to pull over, so whoever left Kim there must have been in a hurry, which could account for his fall. If this was his usual style of hiding his victims, i.e., trade-off of hiding the victim well at the cost of being discovered in the act, then he may have had similar accidents previously. I wish we could know how Manalli injured his spine.

Also, one article says that after Kim’s death was publicized, a number of girls came forward to say they’d been raped while trying to hitchhike. Would be good to know if law enforcement found similarities between the descriptions of their attackers and, if so, could any of these guys match a description of Manalli.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:07 pm

Interesting stuff continues,but I am getting used to it.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:36 pm

Yes.

I half expecting to find proof that Manalli was in Londoon in 1888.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:45 pm

I don’t know about that, but maybe on the grassy knoll.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:09 pm

I don’t know about that, but maybe on the grassy knoll.

Funny you should say lol. Don’t tempt the Fredster – he usually has a reply.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:24 pm

ok, no more jokes from me. Jeeze….

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:25 pm

On a more serious note.

I wonder exactly what kind of painting. Splashing would imply large amounts of paint (larger than oils or watercolors). Possibly this little creative aside was inspired by the centrifugal stuff which would require large amounts of paint of a certain viscosity.

Speculation I know but splashing around with paint in 1966. Wonder if he kept his watch on. Wonder if he used cheap exterior paint. Wonder if he had a watch lol.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:46 pm

Some more.

Both Zodiac and Manalli seem to refer to letters of a certain length as a note.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:03 am

Some more.

Both Zodiac and Manalli seem to refer to letters of a certain length as a note.

One more item for the growing collection,thanks Trav

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:51 am

I was wondering about this.

The red what? uniform?

Was this written in red ink by any chance?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:32 am

I was wondering about this.

The red what? uniform?

Was this written in red ink by any chance?

It seems like it was. The felttip stuff seems to look fatter.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:40 pm

Some more similarities in use of language. Lots of people have similar ways of saying certain things but in this instance I wanted to show that they are quite similar in context. For example in Mikado the line is actually just "leave it to you" no ‘up’. Also the same use here of "as to" after the word curious.

Zodiac or not, given Manalli’s career and writing and so on, it certainly useful to have an example of someone who uses language very similar to Zodiac and lends credence to the possibility that Zodiac, whoever he was, may have been of a similar ilk and surrounded by similar influences in his life – a similar background.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:00 pm

If we had even more materials from Manalli,I am quite sure we would find alot more stuff. I really like dthe way that both Manalli & Zodiac used the word SATERICAL/SATIRICAL.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:40 pm

More than likely. Just wanted to get those ones posted as they jumped at me.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:44 pm

Some more similarities in use of language. Lots of people have similar ways of saying certain things but in this instance I wanted to show that they are quite similar in context. For example in Mikado the line is actually just "leave it to you" no ‘up’. Also the same use here of "as to" after the word curious.

Zodiac or not, given Manalli’s career and writing and so on, it certainly useful to have an example of someone who uses language very similar to Zodiac and lends credence to the possibility that Zodiac, whoever he was, may have been of a similar ilk and surrounded by similar influences in his life – a similar background.

Re-looking at this again, the word & phrasing similarities are awesome. I also found Manalli using the word ‘SHALL’ a couple more times. This guy looks better & better. And wow….both using the word COMPLY

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:22 pm

Found this interesting.

The "g’s" – I was working on the Count Marco card (which, after some things I’ve noticed, consider genuine) and I became aware of not only similarity in the shapes but also a pattern in them.

The pattern concerns the use of the double g’s in this example and I’ve seen this elsewhere throughout the letters – zodiac and manalli. When using doubles there is a slight variation on the type of g used, in the second double in the sequence. On the Marco card the second double is slightly shorter and starts to curve inward toward the first g. Manalli’s does the same. Manalli loops his second g in the series and, depending on how heavy he is with the pen, it can look like second g is curving in – like the Marco card.

And finally….the obvious bit – there’s two types of g used by the zodiac and Manalli. The one with the curled tail and the straight one with the smaller head.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:21 pm

Left hand tick from Zodiac and Manalli, This may prove important later on. Sorry for being cryptic but I can’t be bothered explaining lol…….ah to hell with it. It may concern use of alternating ticks – I say may because I can’t be bothered looking.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:26 am

Found this interesting.

The "g’s" – I was working on the Count Marco card (which, after some things I’ve noticed, consider genuine) and I became aware of not only similarity in the shapes but also a pattern in them.

The pattern concerns the use of the double g’s in this example and I’ve seen this elsewhere throughout the letters – zodiac and manalli. When using doubles there is a slight variation on the type of g used, in the second double in the sequence. On the Marco card the second double is slightly shorter and starts to curve inward toward the first g. Manalli’s does the same. Manalli loops his second g in the series and, depending on how heavy he is with the pen, it can look like second g is curving in – like the Marco card.

And finally….the obvious bit – there’s two types of g used by the zodiac and Manalli. The one with the curled tail and the straight one with the smaller head.

The two styles of G from both is yet another item on the checklist

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:52 am

Does Manalli have any children? Is there any way you can obtain his DNA?
I’m having trouble finding hard evidence against this man, aside from a cartoon sketch
found by his ex-wife and her new husband, that points towards the Santa Rose crimes.
Any evidence he owned guns and knew how to use them, did he hunt, any evidence of
violent acts, what kind of vehicles did he drive, etc.? Why would he be hanging out in
Vallejo or Berryessa? It also appears he is an educated man who can spell.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:39 pm

Manalli did not have any children. He was buried, not cremated, in a Santa Rosa cemetery. As I have said in previous posts, there is a possibility that he could be exhumed and a sample of his DNA taken.

Manalli was in the Army so he would have had firearms training but I do not know if he owned a firearm. He was driving a van at the time of his death. I don’t know what other vehicles he might have owned. He was divorced in 1972, his wife could have had a car. Manalli does not speak of his vehicles in his letters that I recall.

Santa Rosa is an hours drive from both Vallejo and Napa. Serial killers tend to start out farther from their homes and as they gain confidence in their ability to to get away with their crimes they tend to move closer to home. I’m not proposing that Manalli is the Zodiac just that it would be possible for a person like Manalli who lived in Santa Rosa to have been Zodiac.

Yes, Manalli was an educated man but given what Traveller learned and presented about the novel Finnegans Wake, which could apply to any suspect, my opinion is that Zodiac’s mispellings are deliberate.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:00 pm

Does Manalli have any children? Is there any way you can obtain his DNA?
I’m having trouble finding hard evidence against this man, aside from a cartoon sketch
found by his ex-wife and her new husband, that points towards the Santa Rose crimes.
Any evidence he owned guns and knew how to use them, did he hunt, any evidence of
violent acts, what kind of vehicles did he drive, etc.? Why would he be hanging out in
Vallejo or Berryessa? It also appears he is an educated man who can spell.

Its very hard to get information about people from 35-40 years ago. Whether they shot guns,etc. Thats a problem with alot of suspects & POI’s. ONEWHOKNOWS, you are lucky to have personally known & lived with your suspect. You knew him as wellas anybody could. But that is rare, most of the suspects & POI’s dont have that information provided by somebody close to them. The only way to know about Manalli’s use of guns,etc, would be to talk to somebody that knew him personally.

I didn’t start off looking at Manalli as a favorite suspect. I thought he was interesting in the Santa Rosa murders,and also because of him being linked to the Zodiac case by Graysmith. It wasn’t until I was skimming thru his writings that I noticed what I thought was a similarity in writing to Zodiac. I asked Trav to take a look,and then everything else started falling into place.

*Manalli mentions James Joyce. Low & behold, James Joyce has a book FILLED with many of the same misspelled words as used by Zodiac,misspelled in the same exact ways.

*Manalli frequently uses the word ‘SHALL’. Zodiac was awfully fond of that word too.

*Many of thewriters mentioned by Manalli, were featured in a 1968 book. Included in that book, was the writing of Manalli’s friends, Daniel Curley. As it happens, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME was in that book as well. Zodiac referenced THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME.

*In 1969, Zodiac used the words ‘SLAVES IN PARADISE’. At that same time, Manlli was writing a book called ‘PARADISE,ITS A NICE PLACE’.

*Both Zodiac & Manalli use the word ‘SATIRICAL'(of course Z spells it wrong). Thats NOT a word used frequently whatsoever.

*Multiple times, Manalli writes of violence, and even writes the term ‘GOD HELP ME BEFORE I KILL MORE’. Almost exactly as Zodiac writes it in the letter to Belli.

*Zodiac wrote ‘RED WITH RAGE’ & Manalli wrote(underlining RED)’Thed RED reveals a homicidal tendency’

*Both Zodiac & Manalli refer to theor letters as ‘notes’

*Zodiac wrote ‘RATHER LEAVE IT UP TO YOU’ & Manalli wrote ‘ILL LEAVE IT UP TO YOU’

*Zodiac wrote ‘THEY HAVE NOT COMPLIED’ & Manalli wrote ‘DO MY BEST TO COMPLY’

*Zodiac wrote ‘MILDLY CURIOUS AS TO’ & Manalli wrote ‘IM CURIOUS AS TO’

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect’s side by side writings with Zodiac’s like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:12 pm

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect’s side by side writings with Zodiac’s like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

Are you serious? Look here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ases#29969

With Manalli you show some matches and several similar phrases, but there we have over two dozen matches, including exact matches of rare phrases like RATHER MESSY, AROUND IN THE SNOW, CONTRARY TO WHAT POLICE SAY, etc.

Please take a look…I mention it in direct response to your question.

I think you guys are doing some good work on this interesting suspect. I would ask if he had any knowledge of or training in codes. And the key question is if he was the Santa Rosa killer, he is a very good Z suspect, if he is not, well then he is still interesting but you don’t have proof of capacity to kill.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:26 pm

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect’s side by side writings with Zodiac’s like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

Are you serious? Look here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ases#29969

With Manalli you show some matches and several similar phrases, but there we have over two dozen matches, including exact matches of rare phrases like RATHER MESSY, AROUND IN THE SNOW, CONTRARY TO WHAT POLICE SAY, etc.

Please take a look…I mention it in direct response to your question.

I think you guys are doing some good work on this interesting suspect. I would ask if he had any knowledge of or training in codes. And the key question is if he was the Santa Rosa killer, he is a very good Z suspect, if he is not, well then he is still interesting but you don’t have proof of capacity to kill.

AK, those phrases, etc are similar to zodiac’s as well, However, I am also looking at the overall writing…phrases, choice of words, and similarity in writing structure and formation.

Not sure if Manalli ‘could kill’ but he certainly wrote that he could, including strangling people and using the phrase ‘GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE’.

This guy pointed out an author & book, that book contains MANY of the Zodiac’s misspelled words…CHRISTMASS, WOEMAN,etc

The guy was writing a book called ….PARADISE,ITS A NICE PLACE, around the time Zodiac used the phrase ‘slaves in Paradise’. The guy uses the word ‘SHALL’ in several letters.

He shares a very distinct similarity in writing as seen here-

AK, It’s not a competition, or question of why one suspect is better. I certainly don’t think so anyhow. I have little interest in whether anybody is or is not sold on any particular suspect. Trav and I are just laying out our findings, as you have done with your suspect. Whil I certainly would like to see Manalli ‘on a silver platter, with an address in Vallejo and a membership to the NRA, I can only present what I can find

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:13 pm

I understand. Since you asked if any other suspect has many matches to Z, I will invite you and others to look here:

http://www.unazod.com/style.html

And then here:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ases#29969

Other than that, rock on, keep looking, you and Trav and others have found some good stuff! I would like to get Manalli’s DNA for sure.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:25 pm

I struck out getting a more recent photo of Fred Manalli. I had a very helpful person at the college where he taught that went thru all of the 1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him. The only thing they found was a listing of his name under the ‘not pictured’ list.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:14 pm

In response to AK and OWK.

They are very good questions regarding Manalli’s provenance concerning codes, firearms and even the ability to kill or commit violence.

Morf and Seagull have done a great job answering the possible connotations of those things, and that he was in the army, in his own writings. The codes connection it could be suggested are there through the Joyce connection and JF Bryce. There are many, many things (as Morf showed) that can be alluded to in Manalli’s writing and just obvious stuff either. There’s also stuff that doesn’t need allusion but is it for real or just Manalli’s thought’s on paper and nothing more? We don’t know.

Then we have Teddy K. Officially identified and incarcerated whacko can’t get any more solid). Guns, knives, bombs, codes. disguises. The handwriting is very good (will be looking at that at some point). Again similar use of words and phrases. And much more.

So…on paper and in reality – Teddy K looks way better. Hands down but then he has to – he’s a convicted terrorist/killer and maybe more. There’s not only weight of evidence but also proof the ability to commit certain acts with certain tools.

But that was from his "work" stuff. what about his personal letters to his family or brother – I assume they weren’t they full of direct references to his nefarious activities.

With Manalli’s stuff we only have personal letters so with that in mind it would be interesting to see how any of Teddy K’s personal letters compare against Manalli’s for overall tone and content. Not only would that be a more unbiased comparison but it would be good to see if there are any similarities between a known murderer’s personal writings and a POI’s letters of the same nature.

I have found myself asking the questions AK and OWK have asked and I did wonder – how much of a killers (work habits) would filter through in everyday writing, if any. Would something like the ciphers be represented in a direct way or would it be more obscure? I would tend towards the latter if you were actively avoiding attention. I would imagine the last thing a killer would do, if the importance of ciphers was being splashed all over the media, would be to use something, or even reference it, so obviously incriminating in every day use. But would that be the case? Don’t know for sure.

I just can’t ignore the line – I have been too clever for them. From what I’ve seen and it’s just MHO, Zodiac was clever and he was cunning and capable of lateral thinking and planning. He wasn’t necessarily all that careful but he tried to be. Problem is clever and careful aren’t always easy to balance but I think Zodiac did a pretty good job of it. There’s a feeling in the tone of what Zodiac writes, that that seems very much like the zodiac is a character, an alter ego and in the wearing of a costume at Berryessa. Considering the most popular reference we have for that, comics, movies etc, the one thing that a character must keep hidden is his true IDENTITY. Zodiac writes that "in this cipher is my idenity [sic]" then writes "I will not give you my name" or in other words – his true IDENTITY. The 408 contained what the Zodiac promised – the Zodiac’s Identity – actually a mini manifesto or biog of the killer’s alter ego – the Zodiac.

The point I’m trying to make is that I would expect there to be little or no direct reference to the alter ego or his activities in the "name" or "true identity’s" everyday writing. There would be a separation, on multiple levels, from the alter ego and the person in everyday life and activities …… "the rest of the time I look completely different"

I think the Zodiac may have been like that or rather "name" was because the Zodiac is just a construct, a parallel existence that didn’t exist. I think that the killer may have done more than create a "name" in using Zodiac. I think (and remember he’s as good as said this himself) he created an IDENTITY. The character would do things and say things. Even speak and act in a certain way that the real identity doesn’t in normal life ensuring that the character is as ‘different’ as possible from the real person. Ensuring that no part of the character leaked into everyday life – it’s like the killer is a completely different person. I could see a would be murderer/serial killer thinking that would be clever – create a character, even with a back story to assist yourself in playing that character whilst doing your crimes so that anything regarding appearance, voice, walk etc etc doesn’t get brought back into the true identities life. It’s like the killer is phantom, only seem to exist for sure when he’s killing.

A hunter who may or may not have gotten his rocks off with a girl. An escaped convict trying to get to mexico after killing a guard from an escape we’re not sure happened. Wore a Disguise. Has a symbol. Has a walking impediment and speaks with no accent. By day a mild mannered ………………… (insert likely profession to suit your POI)

I would imagine this skill would be something a writer would be good at – character building.

Oh and course there’s the possibility that if the Zodiac was as much of a created character as I’ve suggested, his creator may not have been all that sure if his acting skills at first if that phone call to the police sounded like it was being read from a script because it was lol.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:27 pm

I struck out getting a more recent photo of Fred Manalli. I had a very helpful person at the college where he taught that went thru all of the 1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him. The only thing they found was a listing of his name under the ‘not pictured’ list.

Mr elusive. Maybe he thought photographs steal your soul. Thanks for trying.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:31 pm

Whether or not he owned a gun I couldn’t say but he may have been having an affair with one lol.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:01 pm

Ok I will do more on this but as the writing in the Marco letter (note?) is stylised this is probably the bulk of the interesting ones.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:57 pm

Morf: "1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him."

There were NO pictures of Manelli in all those years as part of the faculty of SRJC?

I can understand being left out for a year or two, but the lack of photos for all those years is something suspicious. It is like Manelli deliberately did not want his photo seen.

One suggestion: You could check the 1975 yearbook, especially the English Department, and see if you can locate anyone who is listed as they probably knew Manelli – I am sure most of the staff in that book are retired now, and many may have passed.

I have the impression Manelli was a social recluse, which means only a few people really knew him, and they are gone as well. If that is the case,
any faculty member, who was at SRJC at the time Manelli taught, would likely say Manelli was shy, kept to himself, etc, and nobody really knew him. That is just a guess, but based on the letters and behavior, I can’t see him being popular, or socially active with fellow instructors.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:33 pm

Morf: "1960’s and 70’s yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him."

There were NO pictures of Manelli in all those years as part of the faculty of SRJC?

I can understand being left out for a year or two, but the lack of photos for all those years is something suspicious. It is like Manelli deliberately did not want his photo seen.

One suggestion: You could check the 1975 yearbook, especially the English Department, and see if you can locate anyone who is listed as they probably knew Manelli – I am sure most of the staff in that book are retired now, and many may have passed.

I have the impression Manelli was a social recluse, which means only a few people really knew him, and they are gone as well. If that is the case,
any faculty member, who was at SRJC at the time Manelli taught, would likely say Manelli was shy, kept to himself, etc, and nobody really knew him. That is just a guess, but based on the letters and behavior, I can’t see him being popular, or socially active with fellow instructors.

Manalli was NOT a full time teacher, and that is likely why he is not in the photos. The librarian told me that most of the part-time teachers were not shown. Also, he told me that around 69,they stopped yearbook production, so Manalli wouldnt have been in the yearbook photos in the 70’s since they didnt have any.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:39 pm

I wonder if you would have any luck trying San Quentin for a photo. He taught there until the mid ’60’s I believe. I bet they photographed their employees. Something from the mid ’60’s would be better than the 1957 photo. Also have you tried San Francisco State where he got his masters degree?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:43 pm

I wonder if you would have any luck trying San Quentin for a photo. He taught there until the mid ’60’s I believe. I bet they photographed their employees. Something from the mid ’60’s would be better than the 1957 photo. Also have you tried San Francisco State where he got his masters degree?

I checked with SF State, and they went thru the 60-64 yearbooks, and found no photo of Manalli. They stopped publishing yearbooks in 64. I really don’t even know how to go about contacting the prison to look into finding a photo of him. But that made me think of something, between his prison teaching, his job at the college, and his military, he has to have prints on file someplace. If police want to look at him for ANY crimes, I think they could track down his prints.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:35 pm

Ok I will do more on this but as the writing in the Marco letter (note?) is stylised this is probably the bulk of the interesting ones.

The question mark at the end of Fred’s letter looks quite similar to the question mark at the end of the Badlands letter, i.e. it looks like a "2". Jus’ sayin’.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:42 pm

Manalli writes about a guy named Dostoievski in one of his letters. As it turns out, on an old ZK.com thread, a couple people were discussing that same guy mentioned by Manalli, in reference to Gaik. Here’s the link:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/view … 43bd739d03

Here’s a quote from one member(you can simply sub the name MANALLI for GAIK)

" Yes, it’s Dostoevsky, and this makes for what I think is a compelling argument about Gaikowski as the Zodiac, and why he was able to stop. One of Dostoevsky’s most important books is Crime & Punishment (hinted at in the article); the main protagonist, Raskolnikov, imagines himself to be a revolutionary Superman in the Nietzschean mold, to whom rules do not apply and so he murders a pawnbroker and her sister, rationalizing it to be for the greater good.
If Gaikowski was thinking along the same lines, seeing himself as Raskolnikov, the Z murders could be seen as an attempt to destabilize society (a common theme of his other writings), for what he saw as the greater good, and which would be justified politically. Z in his letters stays very far away from politics other than taunting the wholly ineffectual police, since that would give up the game. But once it didn’t take much effect, Gaikowski as not a deranged serial killer driven to kill, but goofy theorist trying to make a political statement through killings and more especially the letter writing, he was able to stop without any problem.
Anyway, it makes sense to me, and the more references to Dostoevsky I see in Gaik’s writing the more I’m sure that it could be the explanation for why Z is doing his thing, and the persistent mystery of why he was able to stop so abruptly"

And here’s another old ZK.com thread, discussing TEDK in reference to Dostoievski.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ozs/761.html

Once again, a quote from the poster:
"It’s interesting to note that in the Kropotkin and Garnett translations of Dostoevsky the word "nasty" is used very frequently–even in the title of one of Dostoevsky’s short stories, "A Nasty Tale." There must be some very frequently-used Russian word that corresponds closely in the same sense that we use it. Kaczynski was a big Dostoevsky reader. He got it from his mother"

I dont know enough about TedK or Gaik to know if either of them ever mentioned Dostoievski,but I know that Manalli did!

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:51 pm

Hey waht do you know(this stuff is not surprising me anymore), Manalli mentions this guy:

Vladimir Nabokov .

Well guess what, there is an old ZK.com thread discussing him too:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/view … 4335ae1db8

Even Ray Grant took notice:
http://www.thezodiacmurderssolved.com/1970_Letters.html

Even a thread on Opord:
http://www.opordanalytical.com/phpBB3/v … 8&start=30

"The most famous example I can think of (which is also highly appropriate in this context) is The Vane Sisters* by Vladimir Nabokov (the author of Lolita). In the story the Narrator derides "paranoid" people who look for hidden messages in books and such; but if you take the final paragraph of the story it contains a hidden message about the Narrator not being everything they seem!
Nabokov was a big fan of ciphers, puzzles, word-play, and chess. Hmm, sounds familiar…."

Wow, Manalli sure has a habit of mentiong lots of people that seem in some way to link up to Zodiac. I guess its more coincidence.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:12 pm

Vladimir Nabokov was a lepidopterist according to wikipedia.

Ada in Vladimir Nabokov’s Ada has dreams as a young girl of being a lepidopterist on the fictional planet ‘anti-terra’. (Nabokov himself was an accomplished lepidopterist.)[4]

Stein in Lord Jim

It lists other fictional characters in literature who were lepidopterist. I found this one quite interesting

The character Frederick Clegg in the novel The Collector (1962)

The novel is about a lonely young man, Frederick Clegg, who works as a clerk in a city hall, and collects butterflies in his spare time. The first part of the novel tells the story from his point of view.
Clegg is obsessed with Miranda Grey, a middle-class art student at the Slade School of Fine Art. He admires her from a distance, but is unable to make any contact with her because of his nonexistent social skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidopterist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collector

EDIT Dostoyevsky Also had seizures

http://neurophilosophy.wordpress.com/20 … -epilepsy/

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:32 pm

If Manelli was in the military, there will be fingerprints of him on file, but I don’t think even the FOIA will allow access to that. SCSD could request a copy, but, since they apparently don’t have interest in getting DNA from him, I doubt they would make an effort to get a copy of his prints.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:05 am

Trav wrote:

I think the Zodiac may have been like that or rather "name" was because the Zodiac is just a construct, a parallel existence that didn’t exist. I think that the killer may have done more than create a "name" in using Zodiac. I think (and remember he’s as good as said this himself) he created an IDENTITY. The character would do things and say things. Even speak and act in a certain way that the real identity doesn’t in normal life ensuring that the character is as ‘different’ as possible from the real person. Ensuring that no part of the character leaked into everyday life – it’s like the killer is a completely different person. I could see a would be murderer/serial killer thinking that would be clever – create a character, even with a back story to assist yourself in playing that character whilst doing your crimes so that anything regarding appearance, voice, walk etc etc doesn’t get brought back into the true identities life. It’s like the killer is phantom, only seem to exist for sure when he’s killing.

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:11 am

Trav wrote:

I think the Zodiac may have been like that or rather "name" was because the Zodiac is just a construct, a parallel existence that didn’t exist. I think that the killer may have done more than create a "name" in using Zodiac. I think (and remember he’s as good as said this himself) he created an IDENTITY. The character would do things and say things. Even speak and act in a certain way that the real identity doesn’t in normal life ensuring that the character is as ‘different’ as possible from the real person. Ensuring that no part of the character leaked into everyday life – it’s like the killer is a completely different person. I could see a would be murderer/serial killer thinking that would be clever – create a character, even with a back story to assist yourself in playing that character whilst doing your crimes so that anything regarding appearance, voice, walk etc etc doesn’t get brought back into the true identities life. It’s like the killer is phantom, only seem to exist for sure when he’s killing.

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!

If Fred did indeed use ‘FREDA’, then that could be a sign of ‘latent homosexuality’, the same thing many people mention about Zodiac.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:19 am

Yes that certainly qualifies as different lol.

Wonder if Freda ever lost a pair of gloves in a taxi.

Coincidentally I’ve been watching a series on TV here called "Killers behind bars" – it’s about criminologist who examines cold cases where the killers have been caught and convicted but he’s sure they were responsible for other murders and looks at similar cases.

The first one was about a guy who was a cross-dresser and killed prostitutes.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:40 am

Freda just made something else more interesting. What would be even more interesting would be if Fred had changed his surname slightly as well to go with Freda. Oh I don’t know….maybe something like Manalefi .Pure speculation I know but the existence of Freda (if true) made it interesting.

Why is that interesting……for this reason.

EDIT: forgot the other N – so here’s it as far as it goes. It was in the introduction of the a in freda that interested me because it with the start of Manalli gives the 3 eightballs as A.

EDIT: If I had to guess or shoe-horn even further I would go for this as it gives us 3 female names – FREDA MAE ATEFE – ATEFE being a middle eastern first name that is used by males and females.

There is of course no evidence for this, just guessing at a puzzle.

EDIT: would be even more interesting if this girl’s name had been Atefe.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:28 am

On a more realistic note.

IF this Freda thing was true I wonder what lengths he would have gone to, to keep it hidden. I don’t know how easy it would have been for a 6′ 2" cross dresser to get clothes to fit. Would he have acquired the ability and then the skill to alter or even make clothes to fit? Sewing.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:34 am

On a more realistic note.

IF this Freda thing was true I wonder what lengths he would have gone to, to keep it hidden. I don’t know how easy it would have been for a 6′ 2" cross dresser to get clothes to fit. Would he have acquired the ability and then the skill to alter or even make clothes to fit? Sewing.

Def would have shopped at the ‘big & tall’ woman’s store.

We were discussing in another thread here someplace, why iit was that some police & profilers thought Zodiac was a latent homosexual,and i seem to recall that it was based on his choice of using a knife

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:35 am

If Fred did indeed use ‘FREDA’, then that could be a sign of ‘latent homosexuality’, the same thing many people mention about Zodiac.

I assumed that comment had originally came from Paul Avery in his article. I also assumed it was said because of the love heart and the "thinking of you" stickers that were included in the halloween card.

Have other’s looked into possible hints of this in Zodiac’s writings?

On a more realistic note.

IF this Freda thing was true I wonder what lengths he would have gone to, to keep it hidden. I don’t know how easy it would have been for a 6′ 2" cross dresser to get clothes to fit. Would he have acquired the ability and then the skill to alter or even make clothes to fit? Sewing.

Def would have shopped at the ‘big & tall’ woman’s store.

We were discussing in another thread here someplace, why iit was that some police & profilers thought Zodiac was a latent homosexual,and i seem to recall that it was based on his choice of using a knife

Ah, ok.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:39 am

If Fred did indeed use ‘FREDA’, then that could be a sign of ‘latent homosexuality’, the same thing many people mention about Zodiac.

I assumed that comment had originally came from Paul Avery in his article. I also assumed it was said because of the love heart and the "thinking of you" stickers that were included in the halloween card.

Have other’s looked into possible hints of this in Zodiac’s writings?

No,I think it was more than that. I think that police made up some sort of profile. I forget what thread it was in,but it was not too long ago

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:47 am

Ah, cool.

What about the make-up kit comment that was made by LE, I think. Was that part of it too or was that just a one-off unsubstantiated comment by some detective?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:15 am

I would have to say, that on paper, Manalli is one of the best suspects I have seen. ‘On paper’ is the key. I would love to see proof of him shooting guns,a link of some sort to Vallejo, and a photo of him from 1969. I am afraid that there isnt alot more we can find. Maybe we can get lucky and get in touch with somebody that knew him,and they may be willing to talk. Also interesting, is the possibility of police exhuming his body.

Seagull, have you ever seen the actual drawings of his?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:23 am

Found this:

"I turned in an entry for the SRJC literary awards. I don’t know if I can win anything since I won the Manalli last year "

Apparently, this guy has an award named after him.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:16 pm

What’s your basis for assuming that FM was a cross-dresser because he wrote his name "Freda"?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:37 pm

What’s your basis for assuming that FM was a cross-dresser because he wrote his name "Freda"?

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:50 pm

yeah, I read that, but I don’t know what Graysmith’s source is. I’ve read Zodiac 2 but I don’t own it, so if it is in there I don’t remember what it says.

I made that thread that Morf mentioned about how I think it’s weird that people think Zodiac was gay and then want to say that their POi’s are too, when the circumstances to me indicate that Zodiac was probably straight and that most if not all of these guys probably were too.

All of the serial killers that I’ve heard about target victims of their sexual preference. Did the cross-dressing killer you saw the show about kill men or women?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:51 pm

What’s your basis for assuming that FM was a cross-dresser because he wrote his name "Freda"?

Yeah, and if Graysmith’s source can be believed, then Manelli indeed had at least one other identity that was very different from his public persona, and certainly looked entirley different – a woman named Freda!

Supposedly, in his drawing of the victim, Allen, he referred to himself as FREDA. I cant remember if the drawing was said to have showed him in female clothing.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:00 pm

Did the cross-dressing killer you saw the show about kill men or women?

Women

It was The Suffolk Strangler Case BTW.

The prime suspect in the hunt for the Suffolk Strangler was a workmate of lost estate agent Suzy Lamplugh, it was reported today.
Steve Wright, 48, and Suzy were shipmates on the QE2 liner in the 1980s before she went missing in 1986.
Yesterday it also emerged that Wright was notorious among prostitutes as a cross-dresser.
He would wear high heels, a PVC skirt and a wig as he went looking for sex.

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Supposedly, in his drawing of the victim, Allen, he referred to himself as FREDA. I cant remember if the drawing was said to have showed him in female clothing.

I think the strong association between homosexuality and cross-dressing is a myth. Most men who have a cross-dressing fetish are heterosexual, not homosexual.

Sources:

study done by Virginia Prince and Dr, Richard Doctor in
1997 as a follow up to one done earlier

The abstract :

"One thousand and thirty-two male periodic cross-dressers (transvestites)
responded to an anonymous survey patterned after Prince and Bentler’s (1972)
report. With few exceptions, the findings are closely related to the 1972
survey results. Eighty-seven percent described themselves as heterosexual. All
except 17% had married and 60% were married at the time of this survey. Topics
surveyed included demographic, childhood, and family variables, sexual
orientation and sexual behavior, cross-gender identity, cross-gender role
behavior, future plans to live entirely as a woman, and utilization of
counseling or mental health services. Of the present sample, 45% reported seeking
counseling compared to 24% of the 1972 survey, and those reporting strong
transsexual inclinations were up by 5%."

Here’s a summary of the cited Prince and Bentler study: http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pr0.1972.31.3.903

More sources are mentioned in this article: http://crossdresserswife.com/index.php/2009/02/20/11-crossdressing-facts/

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:29 pm

Again,I dont know one way or another if Manalli was a cross dresser. The only thing I remember hearing is that he referred to himself as ‘freda’. Seagull would likely know more about what was in the drawing.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:31 pm

Hypothetically if he was it might explain the confusion over the content of the desk poem and whether it had been written by a male or a female. It my have been both lol.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:48 pm

Hypothetically if he was it might explain the confusion over the content of the desk poem and whether it had been written by a male or a female. It my have been both lol.

Bingo.

People have speculated that the author of the desktop poem may have been a suicidal female. But what if it was a sexually confused dude, perhaps writing about ‘killing off’ (suppressing) a female side to him that he was struggling with?

FYI: cross dressing =/= homosexual.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:53 pm

And again on the height thing – I’m not sure why that’s so much of an issue, given the six-foot-two estimates that Bryan and (debatable) Fouke offered. Six-foot-three is still in the ballpark, I think.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:58 pm

And again on the height thing – I’m not sure why that’s so much of an issue, given the six-foot-two estimates that Bryan and (debatable) Fouke offered. Six-foot-three is still in the ballpark, I think.

In looking at Manalli(and other suspects)I am trying not to think about their height,weight,whether they have glasses,etc. If they turn out to be a dead ringer for the wanted poster and everything else fits, so be it. With Manalli, I dont know what he looked like around 69, but I am quite satisfied about all of the stuff that links up well with Zodiac.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:16 pm

Ok I found this quite curious.

For the record I have NOT found a match – All I am presenting here is a hypothesis. It concerns the word "with" on the bottom of the bus bomb letter page with the ingredients list. The TH is very unique and I don’t think I’ve seen Zodiac use it anywhere else. I’ve noted it in the past but it’s came back into play given it’s construction.

On it’s own I would say it’s a mistake. Compared to Manalli there’s a possible reason for it – now that doesn’t restrict it to Manalli, it just happens that Manalli’s writing has the prerequisites for the explanation.

The mistake is that I think Zodiac slipped into cursive here and attempted to correct himself. Which it why we have what we have. You can see where I’ve marked the flow of the t and the h. I think he accidentally used the cross bar on the t and followed it through to the h as he would in cursive and realising that then attempted to add a ‘topper’ crossbar as well onto the t to disguise it. There was no need for that topper and he doesn’t use it anywhere else.

Manalli uses a good variation on his t’s and shown here IMO are the elements in them that are similar to the th on the word ‘with’. The follow through on to an h and that weird topper he uses a lot.

Also I think that’s a 2 stroke k used prior to it.

Manalli or not that little ‘mistake’ may prove important at some point. One last thing – if you’re wondering about the curl on the end of the h – don’t. It’s inconsistent with Zodiacs own h’s but is consistent with construction on some of his other letters. Manalli is the same.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:24 pm

The question mark at the end of Fred’s letter looks quite similar to the question mark at the end of the Badlands letter, i.e. it looks like a "2". Jus’ sayin’.

Ironically that’s one thing that matches the least lol. It may be an anomaly. I have a suspicion that the question mark on the end of the citizen may be a corrected exclamation mark. I’m not 100% sure because I haven’t looked into it but it occurred to me as a possibility while I was looking at it.

I have placed some of Manalli’s questions beside it that are similar but I’ve also included a rather odd exclamation mark that is similar in construction albeit an overall different shape.

While I’m down there at the bottom of the citizen letter here’s a proper Manalli Z compared to the Z in Citizen as opposed to his curley z that looks like a 3. Note the same little tick at the start. That is the strongest similarity. I wouldn’t be sold totally on shape but I’m not unconvinced either – can’t expect a perfect match everytime I guess and this is the only example of that type of Z that we have from Manalli, or Freda or whatever you want to call him lol

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:22 pm

MISC-

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:49 pm

An occasional poem or two? YEAH UNDER A DESK YOU WEIRDO lol – ok I’m back to being objective lol.

Thanks for posting those Morf and for the Jarvis papers. I’ll get a glance at those now.

I notice they must have deemed it safe enough by the 80’s to create the award after that nasty business with sketches and backpacks had blown over.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:55 pm

Well there’s something anyway that ties in with the Actors workshop stuff. He studied under Herbert Blau. Don’t know if that means anything yet or ever will but thought I’d mention it.

EDIT: One thing that seems to be constant is that this guy is always skint. Lkie really skint. Couldn’t see him being able to afford to buy weapons via mail order and wot not.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:30 am

I am going to post this in this thread, as it relates to Manalli’s interests, as well as the Bates section:

The following is an excerpt from a book called CORROBORATING EVIDENCE written by William T. Rasmussen…

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner"

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:31 am

The article in this thread that’s about Manalli overseeing a student project – any way we could find some of the students whose names are listed there? Just to see what they remember about him, personality, character, whatever might be of interest.

Here’s something I googled on Dan Curley.

Daniel Curley Papers, 1932-91 | Archon Sandbox
sandbox.archon.org/latest/?p=collections/controlcard&id=13655
Title: Daniel Curley Papers, 1932-91 Add to your cart. ID: 15/7/37 … include Stanley Elkin, Roger Ebert, Hilton Kramer, Fred Manalli, John Moffitt, and C. P. Snow.

Looks like Fred was in good company! Roger Ebert, a student of Curley, the famous movie critic, and C. P. Snow, a well-known author. Four of these guys are in Wikipedia. Moffit, a televison writer and producer, is not, but seems to be quite successful. And then there’s Manalli… he won an award for his writing, but that’s about it. Just doesn’t seem to fit in with the rest, imo. Yes, he died relatively young, but it doesn’t seem like he was on track to becoming a great writer. Or great anything else. His letters to Curley don’t seem particularly interesting (outside of the fact that they match Z so well!). I’m just wondering why Curley would want to keep up a correspondence with Manalli for so long.

Interesting fact. Like Manalli, Dan Curley died because of injuries sustained in a car crash. His car was struck by another vehicle as he was going through an intersection, and he died of complications of a broken neck he suffered in the crash. This was in 1988, in Florida, where he was vacationing. The obit I saw doesn’t say who was driving the car Curley was in, but says that "the driver had the green light". Not sure if "driver" refers to the driver of the car Curley was in or the driver whose vehicle struck him.

If anyone’s interested in reading a couple of Dan Curley’s short stories, here’s a link to his book of short stories, Living With Snakes. A NYTimes book reviewer said that Curley was very good at "making good stories out of bad marriages", or something like that.

http://www.openisbn.com/preview/082030767X/

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:57 am

I think that Manalli was a ‘Hanger-on’, trying to stay in contact with these other established people that he admired. All thru his letters, he begged, pleaded, and basically wined about not being published. He had a hunger for the spotlight, and whether he was Z or not, he certainly had that in common with Z.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:05 am

In one of his letters, Manalli mentions that he studied at SF college under a guy named Walter Van Tilburg.

A little about Walter Van Tilburg-

"He had several academic positions, serving for a time during the 1950s as a professor of creative writing at the University of Montana in Missoula"

"He was Assistant Professor of English at the University of Montana during 1954 and 1955. From 1956 until 1961, Clark taught at San Francisco State College in the Creative Writing Department."

That college was an hour from Deer Lodge prison. No smoking gun,and this guy had already moved onto SF by the time the riots started,just thought it was worth mentioning

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:12 am

Morf wrote:

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner"

Not sure if this relates, but I’ve thought that the initials rh could refer to Robert Herrick, the Renaissance poet. First, because Herrick wrote a poem called Cherry Ripe, in which he compares the lips of Julia to cherries, and at least two more poems about how Julia’s nipples, seen through the fabric of her dress, are like cherries, and, in general is pretty obsessed with the visual aesthetics of Julia and other girls. Most of these you wouldn’t find in an anthology, but definitely would find Cherry Ripe. And CHERRY is a lot like CHERI. And second, because it turns out that Herrick was actually not considered a great poet during his lifetime, nor for several centuries thereafter. It wasn’t until the 1960’s that people took a fresh look at him, and realized the excellence of his writing!!! Here’s some of his stuff, if you want to check it out. Upon Julia’s Clothes is one of his most famous poems, that’s the one that made me initially think of him as an inspiration for the desktop writer. And one third thing, because of the e.e. cummings style of the desktop poem – kinda makes you consider that the writer may have been thinking of poets in general when he wrote on the desk.

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/herrick/herribib.htm

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:33 am

Herrick def seemed obsessed with Cherry…and the CHERRY VS CHERI thing is interesting

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:42 am

Manalli never fails to deliver the goods.

Here is another interesting factoid from Manalli,one that somebody calling themself, ‘THE ZODIAC’ may have been interested in-

"Apogee and perigee refer to the distance from the Earth to the moon. Apogee is the farthest point from the earth. Perigee is the closest point to the earth and it is in this stage that the moon appears larger"
seen here- http://www.moonconnection.com/apogee_perigee.phtml

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:31 am

I am going to post this in this thread, as it relates to Manalli’s interests, as well as the Bates section:

The following is an excerpt from a book called CORROBORATING EVIDENCE written by William T. Rasmussen…

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner"

Well the poem on the desk certainly qualifies lol but there are poetic undertones in the confession letter. In fact as I was thinking about this there is almost a "little list" feel to it.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:36 am

MAN’S DYING-PLACE UNCERTAIN.
by Robert Herrick

MAN knows where first he ships himself, but he
Never can tell where shall his landing be.

"draining into an uncertain death"?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:39 am

MAN’S DYING-PLACE UNCERTAIN.
by Robert Herrick

MAN knows where first he ships himself, but he
Never can tell where shall his landing be.

"draining into an uncertain death"?

Pretty good.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:42 am

Manalli never fails to deliver the goods.

Here is another interesting factoid from Manalli,one that somebody calling themself, ‘THE ZODIAC’ may have been interested in-

"Apogee and perigee refer to the distance from the Earth to the moon. Apogee is the farthest point from the earth. Perigee is the closest point to the earth and it is in this stage that the moon appears larger"
seen here- http://www.moonconnection.com/apogee_perigee.phtml

Good catch. I was meaning to check out what that meant.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:00 pm

Here’s a start to a timeline for addresses and locations. Thanks to BigZ for the Holyoke St address. Please add to or amend where necessary.

1963
961 Union St, San Francisco. Calif.

1964
462 Holyoke St., SF (living with Walter Buczeke)

1966
still at 462 Holyoke (wife Sue is also listed at the address, as well as Buczeke)

1969/1970
428 Eighth St, Santa Rosa. Calif. 95401

1973
109 Frederick St, San Francisco, Calif. 94117

1975
2353 S.Alpine Road, Rockford Il 61108

And 2 without dates

c/o Stuart – 1750 Bay Meadows, Florrisant, Missouri (I’m assuming it’s around ’75 as it seems to be a Christmas visit for a few days and after that he’s back to Alpine Rd in Rockford)

Don’t know where this one falls in the timeline but again assuming it’s between 73 & 76 unless it’s pre 63.

725 N.Dardiner Ave, Rockford Il.

He also mentions being being in San Leandro at the library there. Need to check for date.

EDIT: He was in Germany at some point. Don’t know if that would have been with the army?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:05 pm

He also lived in Sebastapol.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:06 pm

From a letter dated Sept. 1, 1961 the San Leandro address-

532 Bancroft Ave.
San Leandro CA

Letter dated Sept. 19, 1961-

Begins attending San Francisco State College to earn credits for his masters degree.

Begins teaching part time at San Quentin Prison. Assigned to teach 5th-7th grade lauguage arts to prisoners.

From an April 6, 1963 letter address of-

961 Union St.
San Francisco

The address given when Manalli filed his DD214 military discharge with the Sonoma County Recorders Office* was-

1570 North St. #11
Santa Rosa CA

* The probable reason he would have filed his DD214 with the recorders office is that it was required to do so if he used the GI Bill to purchase a home.

Address at his death-

6665 Sebastopol Ave.
Sebastopol CA

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:10 pm

Manalli also worked for the US Forest Service as a firespotter for a few summer seasons along with his wife, Sue. They were stationed in Mendocino County on Anthony Peak, near the Round Valley Indian Reservation.

They were also stationed at Lake Tahoe for at least one season late ’60’s.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:41 pm

Another address from a letter dated Oct. 11, 1970

PO Box 178
Guernewood Park CA

Guernewood Park is located in Sonoma County in the Russian River area about a mile west of Guerneville.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:07 pm

Another address from a letter dated Oct. 11, 1970

PO Box 178
Guernewood Park CA

Guernewood Park is located in Sonoma County in the Russian River area about a mile west of Guerneville.

I see Guernewood Park has even more Zynchronicity with street names. There’s a lovers lane, a Cherry Street and a Riverside Drive

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:26 pm

Unfortunately, Curley, Emblem or Manalli’s ex-wife are gone and they are the ones who would know Fred the best.

The film critic, Roger – is he still around? I can’t remember – if he is, you might get some information about Curley.

Manelli bitched about his poems not being published, he wanted to teach at a better facility then SRJC (need a Ph.D.), wanted his Master’s Degree from where he attended for his Bachelor’s.

All in all, sounds like a very moody person.

Since he did not teach full time at the junior college, what did he do to make ends meet? I know cost-of-living was cheaper in those days, but he still had expensis. If he did nothing but write, it would give him time to plan and plot any crimes, if he committed any.

Rape and murder of women are crimes directed towards women. Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:41 pm

Found an interview with Hayakawa & his Wife. Looks like he had a connection of sorts to the Chronicle.

Friends and Colleagues at San Francisco State

Shearer
Who was your contact? You said it was the chairman of the English department who–?

Hayakawa
Her name was Caroline Shrodes.

Shearer
She was chair of the–

Hayakawa
The English department.

― 194 ―
Shearer
How had she known of your work?

Hayakawa
Well, in the first place, I had been invited out here for three summer sessions before I came here–’52, ’53, and ’54. Or maybe in ’53, ’54, and ’55. I actually don’t remember.

Mrs. Hayakawa
I think we moved to this house in ’55. So that was after we lived in–was it Caroline Shrodes’s? No, it wasn’t Caroline Shrodes’s house that we lived in.

Hayakawa
Lou Wasserman’s house.

Mrs. Hayakawa
Wasserman’s house, yes. Lou and Caroline Wasserman. Awfully nice people.

Shearer
They’re not related to the John Wasserman of the Chronicle?

Mrs. Hayakawa
I think that’s their son. We didn’t meet the family, because they had moved out of the house. We met them later, and Don was a colleague of Lou Wasserman’s later when he joined the staff of San Francisco State. But we were there for summer school, living in their Mill Valley house, which was nice because nobody knew about Mill Valley. We would be glad of it later. [laughter]

Shearer
What kind of a department did you find when you arrived at San Francisco State.

Hayakawa
Very cordial, very hospitable.

Shearer
I noticed that sometimes you’re described as being a professor of language arts and sometimes as professor of English. Why?

Hayakawa
Language arts is a kind of School of Education term and looked down upon by the English department people. But San Francisco State was not organized originally to turn out literary scholars but to turn out English teachers for public schools. So that’s why it was called the language arts department.

Shearer
Were you the only semanticist?

Hayakawa
Yes, I think. However, many of my colleagues became interested in semantics and helped me edit my journal ETC. and used some of the principles of semantics in their teaching. Caroline Shrodes was chairman of the department and gave me every encouragement.

Shearer
Who in particular was cordial or of like mind or of a stimulating mind in the department or in the school at large?

― 195 ―
Hayakawa
Oh, Caroline Shrodes to start out with. Who are special friends at San Francisco State? Richard Dettering.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:37 pm

Turns out that "th" thing wasn’t the only cursive slip in the bus bomb letter. There’s a + on the left hand side where he slips and joins the descender to the crossbar. Naturally Freddy does the same thing.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:58 am

Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Oh yeah, I’d look for something that "set the guy off" with any suspect. I don’t remember if this was brought up before, the threads gettin long… do you know when that was?

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:18 am

Rape and murder of women are crimes directed towards women. Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Great stuff, we now have possible motive, too.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:48 am

Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Oh yeah, I’d look for something that "set the guy off" with any suspect. I don’t remember if this was brought up before, the threads gettin long… do you know when that was?

His wife apparently filed for divorce from him in 1970 in Sonoma County & then again for good in 1973 in SF. (they must have reconciled in between). Now, since we dont know about Manalli & his wife’s personal lives,we can only speculate. But something must have strained their marriage, and it eventually got to her….Did it start in 68-69?? That,or perhaps, and more innocently,she just fell for Don Emblen?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:53 am

I have reached out to a few people that I hoped knew Manalli, or that I know for sure knew Manalli. So far,no luck. A couple did not respond. One guy took the creative courses in Santa Rosa,but just left before Manalli got there. One guy named Herb Blau(mentioned by Manalli in his letter)could not recall Manalli. He said he had way too many students over the years,plus he is in his 80’s, so that may have something to do with it.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:51 pm

Ducking, maybe Seagull will post and answer your question. I don’t know.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:26 am

His wife apparently filed for divorce from him in 1970 in Sonoma County & then again for good in 1973 in SF.

Thanks.

Hm. Well yeah, that sort of precludes it being a precipitating factor for the Z crimes.

But maybe say that they were having problems and/or were separated in 1969, a good time to start writing letters. Maybe they got back together in 1971 for another chance, stop the letters. Having problems again in 72, go out and do the SRHM instead of writing from home as Z. Got divorced in 73, in 74 the letters again but with a new persona and dropped the Z.

It’s just an imaginary possibility. I don’t really think that SRHM and Z are related.

Jem, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:43 am

As a fire spotter, Manalli would probably have used the Osborne Fire Finder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_Fire_Finder
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Use of the Fire Finder

The system is composed of a topographic map of the area oriented and centered on a horizontal table with a circular rim graduated in degrees (and fractions). Two sighting apertures are mounted above the map on opposite sides of the ring and slide around the arc.
A USFS Fire Lookout using an Osborne Fire Finder while on duty at Vetter Mountain, California.

The device is used by moving the sights until the observer can peek through the nearer sighting hole and view the cross hairs in the further sight aligned with the fire. The fire lookout notes the degrees on the graduated ring beneath the sight. The original Fire Finder was capable of a crude estimate of elevation based upon the level and elevation of the table, calculating distance and rough position of the fire by reference to any distinctive terrain features and by use of the scale shown on the map. However, in actual practice, fire distance and location were normally established using two or more Fire Finder-equipped towers, using the intersection method to fix the precise location of the fire.[1][2] Dispatchers at a central facility used a compass rose to mark lines of position from each reporting tower onto a large map to quickly find where the reported bearings intersect.

Today, a more precise determination of a fire location can be made by the use of a single Fire Finder in conjunction with a digital elevation model (DEM).[3]
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Once you located the fire, you could transmit the info to firefighters by telephone or by using a heliograph. Basically, the heliograph is a mirror you use to flash Morse code. Presumably this would be in a remote location where there’s no phone lines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliograph
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Description
Fig. 2: German Heliograph made by R. Fuess in Berlin (on display at the Museum of Communication in Frankfurt).

There were many heliograph types. Most heliographs were variants of the British army Mance Mark V version (Fig.1). It used a mirror with a small unsilvered spot in the centre. The sender aligned the heliograph to the target by looking at the reflected target in the mirror and moving his head until the target was hidden by the unsilvered spot. Keeping his head still, he then adjusted the aiming rod so its cross wires bisected the target.[2] He then turned up the sighting vane, which covered the cross wires with a diagram of a cross, and aligned the mirror with the tangent and elevation screws so the small shadow that was the reflection of the unsilvered spot hole was on the cross target.[2] This indicated that the sunbeam was pointing at the target.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Both of these devices are kind of interesting. Measuring things in degrees, use of a mirror to reflect a beam of light. And possibly inspiration for Z logo.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:11 pm

Duckking:

I agree with you – I do not think the SRHM and Zodiac cases are related. The killer would certainly
have changed his MO if it were Zodiac, there was no sexual attacks in his crimes, and the killer
was completely different from the SRHM. Manelli may or may not be involved in SRHM, but I doubt
if he was Zodiac.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:45 pm

Duckking:

I agree with you – I do not think the SRHM and Zodiac cases are related. The killer would certainly
have changed his MO if it were Zodiac, there was no sexual attacks in his crimes, and the killer
was completely different from the SRHM. Manelli may or may not be involved in SRHM, but I doubt
if he was Zodiac.

While you may be right,or should I say, probably right,why not rule out Manalli properly for both SRHM & ZODIAC? If his body can be exhumed,perhaps a DNA sample can rule him in or out. Additionally, this man’s prints are likely to be on file someplace, after all he was in the Army, and was a teacher,so I hope prints were taken at some point. Still in all, I can’t ignore his similarities to Zodiac’s writing….the closest I have seen. His common uses of words and writing habits with Zodiac are spooky, not to mention the fact he was writing a story called ‘Paradise,its a nice place’ at the same time Zodiac mentioned ‘slaves in Paradise’.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:26 pm

"If his body can be exhumed,perhaps a DNA sample can rule him in or out. Additionally, this man’s prints are likely to be on file someplace….."

I agree with you, Morf, and you and Traveller are doing a fine job uncovering facts about Manelli.

Since I understand sperm was found from one of the victims, I think the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Office owes it to the families of the victims
to exhume Manalli’s remains and test DNA. I can tell you, from working at NCIS, if Manalli was in one of the armed forces, there are fingerprints on file. They can be obtained, by request, from the SCSD. I don’t think FOIA applies to fingerprints taken while in the military. Civilian, perhaps.
I don’t know about how the FOIA applies there. Since A.J. is an attorney, maybe he does.

The U.S. Privacy act, along with the FOIA will get you three pieces of information about military personnel:

Name
Rank
Serial Number

Anything else is like pulling hen’s teeth. Manalli’s file would be stored in a Federal Records Center. Best bet is to contact the branch of armed forces he served in. If you have the above information, it will be helpful.

I hope that helps.

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:36 am

Yeah, I was hoping that we could get something a little more definitive out of his timeline. Not being in California at the time, I’d say would pretty much rule someone out. Just the info that he was in Nor Cal at the time doesn’t help much though, because that is a minimum requirement just to be considered.

I don’t remember, did he have a Riverside connection?

Based on those dates it seemed that he was in Sonoma during the Z attacks, and in SF during the SRHM. Kind of a reverse situation to what you might expect.

Let’s hypothesize that he did write at least some of the Z letters. What does that mean? Would it mean that he has to be the Z, or does that lend more towards the team or non-zodiac killer (as in the writer wasn’t involved with the murders) theories? Or could it mean that maybe he just wrote the 74 letters and that they are actually not Z related and it’s just a coincidence that he has similar handwriting and someone thought it was Z?

I guess that last question is the one that I am considering the most. Not trying to put anyone on the spot to answer these questions, but maybe something to think about for the case in general regardless of POI.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:37 am

Yeah, I was hoping that we could get something a little more definitive out of his timeline. Not being in California at the time, I’d say would pretty much rule someone out. Just the info that he was in Nor Cal at the time doesn’t help much though, because that is a minimum requirement just to be considered.

I don’t remember, did he have a Riverside connection?

Based on those dates it seemed that he was in Sonoma during the Z attacks, and in SF during the SRHM. Kind of a reverse situation to what you might expect.

Let’s hypothesize that he did write at least some of the Z letters. What does that mean? Would it mean that he has to be the Z, or does that lend more towards the team or non-zodiac killer (as in the writer wasn’t involved with the murders) theories? Or could it mean that maybe he just wrote the 74 letters and that they are actually not Z related and it’s just a coincidence that he has similar handwriting and someone thought it was Z?

I guess that last question is the one that I am considering the most. Not trying to put anyone on the spot to answer these questions, but maybe something to think about for the case in general regardless of POI.

Manalli, was steadily in Northern CA from the early to mid 60’s until sometime in 1974(when the Z letters stopped). In 1974, he moved back to Illinois. I know this based on a letter he wrote in 1975 stating "I MOVED BACK HERE LAST YEAR AFTER MANY YEARS IN CA". At some point, he moved back to CA in time for his fatal auto accident in Aug 1976. From this standpoint, he fits the Zodiac timeline and can not be ruled out, at least based on his trail of addresses, dates,and other clues from his letters, and address histories. However, I can find no links to him in Riverside or Southern CA. I think Seagull checked too and failed to come up with any. In the Graysmith book, ZODIAC UNMASKED, a woman gave Graysmith and/or investigators alot of info about Manalli, and she stated that she believed he had ties in southern CA, and to "Riverside…the Bates case"(I am paraphrasing).

As far as getting his military records, I have requested them. They can take several weeks. Seagull knows a little about his service, andI am trying to find more. Several military records I have obtained over the years are sketchy and have very little helpful info. Sometimes, they can not locate the records for some soldiers(thanks in part to a fire at teh records center warehouse). But in at least one instance, I was sent a good amount of information about somebody, dates, service duty stations, special training (a marksman with a handgun)etc, etc. Not sure what, if anything Manalli’s record will provide.

Once again, if you look at this guy on paper, he is a pretty good suspect:

*Many Writing similarities to Zodiac in formation, structure, habits,etc

*Mentions of James Joyce’s book, which includes many of the same misspelled words from Zodiac, with the exact misspellings

*When Zodiac mentioned "reborn in paradise", Manalli, was at that very time, finishing a story called ‘Paradise, its a nice place’

*Like Z, Manalli frequently used the word ‘SHALL’ more than anybody would normally use it.

*Manalli mentioned violent acts, rape,murders, and even wrote "GOD SAVE ME…CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE"..very similar in wording to the Belli note

*We know Zodiac had some sort of mental stuff going on, thats obvious. Manalli wrote alot about his own deteriorating mental health, and sanity. Manalli also had a medical condition which likely effected his walk…perhaps it would have made him walk irregularly like Z appeared to.

*Physically, he looks similar to the Zodiac sketch(minus glasses). His 6ft3 height is taller than most Z descriptions, although Z was described as 6ft2 in one account. He apparently put on weight too. In one letter, he mentioned he had gotten flabby and wouldnt be recognized.

*Ken Narlow mentioned that NAPA PD was of the opinion that Zodiac,whomever he was,was very poor based on the fact that he drove a car with 4 non-matching tires in poor shape. Manalli wrote that he was very poor, making $4-$5000 a year and barely scraping by. In one letter, he even mentioned "needing a new set of tires"

*Most compelling of all, he was a suspect in the SRH murders. Anybody that is a bay area serial murder suspect, should be properly ruled in the SRHM & Zodiac murders for all reasons listed above.

What do I make of all this stuff? I dont know. I do know, its all strong enough to make me keep digging. I know that when the last confirmed Z letter was received in 74, that Manalli headed to Illinois, and he died in 1976….no confirmed Z letter came after 1974. I know that alot of Manalli’s interests and writings line up with Zodiac clues. This may be another great case of Zyncronicity, but maybe not.

Seagull pointed out that some serial killers start out further away from their house, and get closer to home as they get more comfortable, which could explain no verified addresses,etc for Manalli in Vallejo. Still, I would like to verify some sort of reason for manalli to be connected to Vallejo. I would also love to know if he had any history with guns. I have reached out to a few people that may have known Manalli, or could help me get some facts, but I struck out.

My personal goal is to research all suspects and POI’s until they can be ruled out in my book. I cant do that with Manalli,therefore, I will keep digging

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:23 am

Let’s hypothesize that he did write at least some of the Z letters. What does that mean? Would it mean that he has to be the Z, or does that lend more towards the team or non-zodiac killer (as in the writer wasn’t involved with the murders) theories? Or could it mean that maybe he just wrote the 74 letters and that they are actually not Z related and it’s just a coincidence that he has similar handwriting and someone thought it was Z?

I guess that last question is the one that I am considering the most. Not trying to put anyone on the spot to answer these questions, but maybe something to think about for the case in general regardless of POI.

I’ve been considering this throughout and at times though I had a reasonable hypothesis but I don’t think I have because it all seems to lead to a catch 22 of sorts.

Consider that the Citizen letter is not written by the zodiac.

Ok that’s reasonable after all it mentions nothing about the Zodiac and would appear to be against violence. So how would that affect us on an amateur level? Well it would rule out a connection to the desk poem for starters. Actually it would, by default, rule out any connection to any of the other evidence.

That’s were I, at least, start to run into problems. There is a connection and there always be and that connection is Sherwood Morril. Sure the most tenuous connection in our eyes is the Riverside stuff given that it’s made up of scrawls and writing on wood and something typed. Sherwood made a connection though and Zodiac (If to be believed) responded to that connection.

Back to the amateur side of things and I’ve seen possible connections to the citizen letter and the desk and maybe more. Whilst working on this recent stuff I’ve seen connections in other communication, authenticated by Sherwood, that I hadn’t noticed before but in respect of zodiac’s writing style, they are so obvious to me now.

So based on what I’ve seen so far concerning all this stuff, if Sherwood matched it it’s most probably a match. Not least because he was the Head of QD for CA.

Can I rule something as being connected by the fact that the writing just happened to be very similar. Absolutely

Can I rule something out if it’s been authenticated by Sherwood Morril? Never.

I’ve seen more things that corroborate Sherwood’s linking of these documents than evidence that doesn’t. It’s because of that, that any handwriting matches, if indeed a match, would suggest a person is more likely to be the zodiac than just someone who coincidently happened to have their writing included as part of a murder case.

But what if Sherwood did get something wrong?

See? Catch 22, it never ends.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Manalli was a strange character, as I have often found English majors to be a little quirky (like organists LOL).

He is a subject worth continuing to investigate, although it may be hard to find vital information.

The gun issue would be of paramount importance. I can’t remember if guns had to be registered at that time, but if the requirement was in place, try contacting the State of California under the FOIA and see if he purchased any.
I think mail-order guns was still in place, so the gun subject may reach a dead end. The people who knew Manelli would be in their late 70’s or 80’s, if any remain. I doubt if his students knew about his personal life, which I suspect was that of a loner, again something in common with Zodiac.

Duckking, you ask interesting questions – too bad the answers are not easy to find.

In regards to Sherwood Morril, he was an excellent document examinor.
But, that does not mean he could not make a mistake, and perhaps did in the Z case.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:27 am

A couple weeks ago, I Sent off a request for any existing FBI files for Manalli. Got a reply today that they are searching their files. Hope to hear back again within a few weeks. I am not real hopeful that they will have anything on file.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:18 am

Good work Morf.

Never say never. Not where Freddy’s concerned lol.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:33 am

Good work Morf.

Never say never. Not where Freddy’s concerned lol.

Never know

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:47 pm

Here are all Manilla’s in Rockforf Illinois 1959.

I belive that Fred Manilla’s parents is Irene H Manilla and Jack J Manilla
(in other records Jack is listed as John J Manalli)

Thise, I belive, are Fred Manalli’s parents death records:

Social Security Death Index
about Irene Manalli
Name: Irene Manalli
SSN: 348-10-0080
Last Residence: 61108 Rockford, Winnebago, Illinois, United States of America
Born: 8 Oct 1911
Last Benefit: 61108 Rockford, Winnebago, Illinois, United States of America
Died: Dec 1984
State (Year) SSN issued: Illinois (Before 1951)

Social Security Death Index
about John J. Manalli
Name: John J. Manalli
SSN: 348-10-0112
Last Residence: 61108 Rockford, Winnebago, Illinois, United States of America
Born: 27 Mar 1910
Died: 11 Mar 1992
State (Year) SSN issued: Illinois (Before 1951)

I also found this:

U.S., Department of Veterans Affairs BIRLS Death File, 1850-2010
about Fredric Manalli
Name: Fredric Manalli
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1935
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
SSN: 352264917
Branch 1: ARMY
Enlistment Date 1: 1 Oct 1957
Release Date 1: 25 Sep 1959

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:04 pm

Yes, TF Fred’s parents were Jack and Irene. They are named in the obituary that appeared in the newspaper. Fred had a sister, Mary Lou, who was quite a bit younger. She had a career in news broadcasting and worked at a TV station in the San Francisco Bay Area. As far as I know she did not move to the Bay Area until after her brother died. Here’s a youtube of a little bit of her broadcast, there are more if you google her name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oww5FDU3o7g

Griffith was in a motorcycle accident in a different part of Sonoma County. Manalli was the only one in his vehicle, the woman he hit was not killed.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:08 pm

Good stuff TF.

I found these from the winebago area register.

M933-0581 07/02/1933 MANALLI, GEORGE 25 SYDLOWSKI, MARY 23
M940-0521 09/07/1940 MANALLI, GEORGE 27 HAMANT, ROSE 23
M325-1947 10/10/1953 MANALLI, GEORGE J 45 MANALLI, MARY MARGARET 42
M934-0753 06/06/1934 MANALLI, JACK 25 MUROWSKI, IRENE 23
M912-0391 06/24/1912 MANALLI, JOHN 23 BEDWELL, LURLIE FAE 19
M307-2307 04/27/1946 MANALLI, JOSEPH A 26 CARUANA, CARMELLA J 25
M317-1705 10/07/1950 MANALLI, VICTOR M 30 VASCELLARO, LILLIAN 21

These are for marriages, there is also death and birth records.

http://files.usgwarchives.net/il/winnebago/vitals/

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:37 pm

Thanks Seagull and Trav:)

Found this today, it was published 1963:

http://www.worldcat.org/title/short-sto … lc/6247788

Short stories : The Blakentia sextet
Author: Frederic Steven Manalli

Edition/Format: Book : Fiction : Manuscript Archival Material : English
Rating: (not yet rated) 0 with reviews – Be the first.

Details
Material Type: Fiction, Manuscript
Document Type: Book, Archival Material
All Authors / Contributors: Frederic Steven Manalli
Find more information about: Frederic Steven Manalli
OCLC Number: 6247788
Notes: Typescript.
A creative work submitted to San Francisco State College in partial fulfillment for the degree Master of Arts. Description: 94 leaves ; 29 cm.
Other Titles: Blakentia sextet.
Responsibility: by Frederic Steven Manalli.

http://beta.worldcat.org/archivegrid/re … rd+Library

Short stories : The Blakentia sextet
Manalli, Frederic Steven.
Publication information:1963

94 leaves ; 29 cm.

San Francisco State University – J. Paul Leonard Library
Contact an Archivist to learn more about access to materials in this collection
Contact Information
Notes and summaries
Typescript.
A creative work submitted to San Francisco State College in partial fulfillment for the degree Master of Arts.
This collection covers:
AS36 1963 .M36
Related to:
Blakentia sextet.
OCLC WorldCat link: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/6247788

Does anyone know what "Blakentia" is?

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:29 pm

Foreigner, I m trying to get my hands on that book, Blakentia Sextet. I dont know what BLAKENTIA means. If you google the word, the results are mostly all related to Manalli’s book.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:26 pm

I tried to get the Blakentia Sextet from San Francisco State not long after I first got the letters but ran into a stone wall because of construction at the university. All of the thesis had been moved off campus to another university and there was a problem locating it. I hope they have gotten things back together by now!

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Could it perhaps be a reference to the English writer and painter William Blake?

Three out of five serial killers prefer references to William Blake…

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:27 pm

Some more Manalli pics & stuff, I may have a few more things tomorrow. Unfortunately,these pics are also from the 1950’s.

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:35 am

Three out of five serial killers prefer references to William Blake…

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:09 am

Three out of five serial killers prefer references to William Blake…

I concor, this one also made me

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:49 pm

The pictures of Manalli came from college photos?

One big difference between now and the 1950’s – everybody dressed up for
formal occasions.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:41 pm

The pictures of Manalli came from college photos?

One big difference between now and the 1950’s – everybody dressed up for
formal occasions.

Those were High School photos. Here’s one more…of course, Manalli was in the drama club as seen in this photo-holding a sword or stick

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:48 pm

The pictures of Manalli came from college photos?

One big difference between now and the 1950’s – everybody dressed up for
formal occasions.

Those were High School photos. Here’s one more…of course, Manalli was in the drama club as seen in this photo-holding a sword or stick

Interesting Morf. On the black board…It says The Play is THE THING> Make me think of the Z " Do my Thing"

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:08 pm

A good observation fair Zam but alas methinks that may be a quote from Shakespeare.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:20 pm

A good observation fair Zam but alas methinks that may be a quote from Shakespeare.

Thanks AK, but thinking….he still could of liked or copied the verbiage. I know I do that, If I like a saying I tend to use it
now and then. But yes, The plays the thing, Hamlet by Shakespeare.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= … la6AOUgTkw

The Theme is interesting: Themes: family, murder and assassination, intrigue, deception.

Shakespeare Quote – "The plays the thing"

Hamlet:
I’ll have grounds
More relative than this—the play’s the thing
Wherein I’ll catch the conscience of the King.

Hamlet – Act 2, Scene 2

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:49 pm

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:51 am

Heard back from the FBI regarding Manalli,and they could not locate a file on Manalli. However,they noted that they could not searc their entire file system because the FBI is in the middle of loading all of their paper records on file into computerized format. Thats probably why its taking so long for the FBI to release all of their Zodiac files to me.

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:25 pm

‘FBI is in the middle of loading all of their paper records on file into computerized format.

They are just doing that now??? I would have thought a project like that would have been done year ago.
However, the Fed Government is slow in getting around to that. They always talked about putting our records on microfiche – never did that either. I suppose money is an issue.

When they are through, you should have all they have and will release on Freddie Mertz. It will be worth it.

TRAINMASTER
————————————–
"She was the last word in luxery and speed. Before the last voyage, she was declared "unsinkable" by her owners. The rich and famous chose to sail in her.
Her sinking was the worst shock the world ever had."

RMS LUSITANIA May 7, 1915

doranchak, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:32 pm

The likely problem is that when you have thousands of pages of physical files that you want to scan into a computer, you can’t do quick searches within the files for text like "Manalli" unless some kind of optical character recognition is performed on them. It’s an inexact science especially with old documents that are handwritten or faded or otherwise difficult to understand.

So, there could be some pages in there about Fred, but without proper transcriptions of the scanned files’ contents, it’s like finding a needle in a haystack.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:11 pm

Info on a classified ad posted in the SF Chronicle Aug 27, 1976 saying:

"ZODIAC, your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You’re next. The Imperial Wizard can save you. Surrender to him or I’ll terminate your case. R.A."

can be found on this thread :

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ters#30208

Here is a copy of a post on that thread and my reply to it concerning Fred Manalli:

On the last page of the article Tracers posted there is mention of a personals ad that appeared in the Chronicle. Here is the ad as published-

10-04-2010 Seagull, on zodiackiller.com, suggested that:
"the ad saying that Zodiac’s partner is in Deep Real Estate I think would mean that the partner is dead, six feet under ground."

NOW!…I just realized that TWO DAY previously of this add, August 25, 1976, Fred Manalli died!!!

SO!…was Fred Manalli Zodiac’s partner in crime???
And somone knew about it?

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Fredric S Manalli
Name: Fredric S Manalli
Social Security #: 352264917
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1935
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:23 pm

Wow Foreigner,I remember this thread and this classified AD. Really interesting as far as the timing and with Manalli’s death. Will have to look at this closer. Thanks

, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:13 pm

This just gets better and better. Seagull, you (at least I think it was you) mentioned that someone (in LE?) believed that Manalli and another person were responsible for the SRHMs… and after they were gone, there were no more murders. Do you know who the other person was?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:22 pm

Good stuff TF. Weird ad, this is the first time I’ve heard about it.

Ok, I’ve been going through Manalli’s Blaketia Sextet.

There are of course many references to murder and killing and death and some pretty abstract stuff that could be interpreted as "Zodiacesque". I was going to start with them but I found this interesting and have decided to go with it first.

One thing that seems evident to me is that Manalli models his characters on himself. Whether it’s narcissism or limited imagination I can’t say. But I’d go for both lol.

The description below is of the main character in the story "May Day". First of all various elements are similar to the description of Zodiac and some are, I think, of Manalli. I’ve included the pics of him sourced by Morf to illustrate. It would be interesting to see if the bit about dental work shows up in any army docs we might get.

The bit for me though is about the nose. The description of a once "Norman" shaped nose being flattened and twisted due to boxing jumped out at me for two reasons.

1. It solves the appearance of Manalli’s apparently large nose with an explanation that may well be something that actually happened to him. I have shown what I think are differences in his photos regarding this. In the first image It appears that he has a very shallow, practically non existent, bridge. In the other photos the bridge appears to be deeper and actually present.

2. One of the first things I had floating around in my noggin concerning the Stine composite was possible reasons for the way the nose was drawn. One of my theories was that I wondered if it had been drawn that way to give it a more flattened appearance. The amended sketch certainly seems to have flattened the nose more. I also wondered if this was because the Zodiac had been a boxer or a football player.

Those are my thoughts on it. I may be drawing connections where there aren’t any but why are they so easy to draw in the first place.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:16 pm

Okay Trav, some good things you mention,but I cant make out the small red writing and examples from the book(too small). Also, with the photo comparisons, in page 1 of this thread,is the original pic posted by Seagull, which is from his college year.Its the most recent of ALL the pics, but its still fromlike 58/59 or around there. His lips look tight in it,which reminds me of the Zodiac sketch as does his chin & jaw. Like I said,its the most recent pic of Manalli that we can find but I know there HAS to be more someplace in the world, and I want to find one from 1969.

EDIT:

Actually, heres the pic and its from 57-

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:25 am

Sorry bout that.

Here’s a cropped version hopefully easier to see.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:45 pm

Info on a classified ad posted in the SF Chronicle Aug 27, 1976 saying:

"ZODIAC, your partner is in DEEP REAL ESTATE. You’re next. The Imperial Wizard can save you. Surrender to him or I’ll terminate your case. R.A."

can be found on this thread :

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ters#30208

Here is a copy of a post on that thread and my reply to it concerning Fred Manalli:

On the last page of the article Tracers posted there is mention of a personals ad that appeared in the Chronicle. Here is the ad as published-

10-04-2010 Seagull, on zodiackiller.com, suggested that:
"the ad saying that Zodiac’s partner is in Deep Real Estate I think would mean that the partner is dead, six feet under ground."

NOW!…I just realized that TWO DAY previously of this add, August 25, 1976, Fred Manalli died!!!

SO!…was Fred Manalli Zodiac’s partner in crime???
And somone knew about it?

California Death Index, 1940-1997
about Fredric S Manalli
Name: Fredric S Manalli
Social Security #: 352264917
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1935
Birthplace: Illinois
Death Date: 25 Aug 1976
Death Place: Sonoma

I am still kicking this around. Anybody have any ideas or theories? I really have a hard time buying a Zodiac ‘team’ theory,but the timing of this AD is crazy as it relates to Manalli’s death. Think about it,Manalli is killed the night of 8/25/76. The next day,8/26/76 is when most people would have learned about his death. It would be too late for somebody to put a personal ad into that day’s paper(the day of the 26th),so it would have to start the following day,on the 27th,WHICH IT DID! That is downright spooky. Any attempt by police to find out who paid for or placed the AD?

trainmaster, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:58 pm

I don’t know about the ad – it could be pure coincidence.

I would return to the scene of the accident. WHY did Manalli do what he did?
To try to pass a car? Maybe someone put something in his coffee or something to induce a heart attack?
He had to swerve to avoid something?

We would have to try to obtain and read the coroner’s report for anything on Manalli – was he intoxicated? Chance of foul play? The coronor’s report would rule out most of the above. Getting ahold of it! Almost imossible!

Then, obtain the accident report and read it. A good chance.

The other driver survived – if she is still around and would talk, perhaps she could describe what took place to cause the accident.

The position of the vehicles would be of paramount importance in establishing what might have happened – that would be in the accident report.

Manalli was too poor to be in real estate. Was he is some sort of deep trouble with someone or LE? They did find those drawings relating to the murder of Kim Wendy Allen. Was Manalli interrogated yet?

Finally, is it possible Manalli was in such a frantic mind that he decided to "end it all" as he threatened to do in his letters? He could have been in such a state-of-mind that he didn’t care who he took along, but I don’t think that was the reason for the accident.

Where was the accident scene, again. Highway 12 and what? I would like to Google the area via street maps; I have travelled over that road many times.

Things to ponder.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:17 pm

According to Manalli’s death certificate the accident was on Hwy 12, 2,745 feet East of Merced Ave. The accident happened Aug. 24, 1976 at 8:30 pm. He died after midnight at 1:25 am to be precise, hence the Aug, 25th date of death. The newspaper article says he was eastbound on Hwy 12, so he was headed away from his home at the time. He lived at 6665 Sebastopol Ave. Sebastopol, the Shady Rest Trailer Park.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:01 pm

So I was checking out Blaketia again and decided to check one of the references Manalli made to "the knights of colombus"and "Ku Klux Klan".

This is how I found out that Imperial wizard is a Klan Title.

Then I spotted this and thought….hmmm. interresting.

Once African Americans secured federal legislation to protect civil and voting rights, the KKK shifted its focus to opposing court-ordered busing to desegregate schools, affirmative action and more open immigration. In 1971, KKK members used bombs to destroy 10 school buses in Pontiac, Michigan.

EDIT: So maybe what I’m wondering is if the ad was Klan related and maybe they used zodiac for a code word (they did use codewords) for reference to activities involving bomb making or for a bomb maker, inspired by the actual Zodiac’s bus bomb threats?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:24 pm

So it would seems that nothing can be discussed – EVER – without it having some sort of Manalli/Zodiac connection.

I’ve been reading about Nathan Bedford Forrest. Yes, note the name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

General Bedford Forrest appears as a character in William Faulkner’s 1943 short story "My Grandmother Millard and General Bedford Forrest and The Battle of Harrykin Creek." The Confederate general’s engagements with a U.S. General Smith (presumably Maj. Gen. Andrew J. Smith) in northern Mississippi and southwestern Tennessee are part of the setting of that story and of Faulkner’s 1938 novel "The Unvanquished." In Faulkner’s 1942 collection "Go Down, Moses," the story "The Bear" refers to a plantation ledger entry recording the purchase of a 26-year-old slave in March 1856 for $265 "from N.B. Forest [sic]."

Forrest is credited with being one of the founding members, if not THE founding member, of the original incarnation of the KKK which he later disbanded.

EDIT: To add the obvious, subject matter of this nature, naturally involves extensive use of the words slaves & negroe

EDIT:

zodiac [ˈzəʊdɪˌæk]
n
1. (Spirituality, New Age, Astrology & Self-help / Astrology) an imaginary belt extending 8° either side of the ecliptic, which contains the 12 zodiacal constellations and within which the moon and planets appear to move. It is divided into 12 equal areas, called signs of the zodiac, each named after the constellation which once lay in it
2. (Spirituality, New Age, Astrology & Self-help / Astrology) Astrology a diagram, usually circular, representing this belt and showing the symbols, illustrations, etc., associated with each of the 12 signs of the zodiac, used to predict the future
3. Rare a complete circuit; circle
[from Old French zodiaque, from Latin zōdiacus, from Greek zōidiakos (kuklos) (circle) of signs, from zōidion animal sign, carved figure, from zōion animal]
zodiacal [zəʊˈdaɪəkəl] adj

KKK
The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee, by six veterans of the Confederate Army.[15] They named it after the Greek word kuklos, which means circle. The name suggests a circle or band of brothers[16]

EDIT:

Some visual zynchronicity

Three Ku Klux Klan members arrested in Tishomingo County, Mississippi, September 1871, for the attempted murder of an entire family.

EDIT: I should add that prior to the war Forrest was a slave master. IT’s just as well his name wasn’t Cherry. Lol

So what are my thoughts on this regarding Manalli. Well there’s a good chance Manalli read Faulkner’s book about Forrest. Both Manalli and Zodiac, whether they be one and the same or not, seem preoccupied with identity and also their own lack thereof. Zodiac, whoever he was, seemed to create more of the Zodiac than a name as I have previously stated, it was an identity, a persona. Manalli gives me the impression of doing the same by injecting himself into his characters and also by the general tone of his letters I can see him being the kind of man who wishes he was someone else, someone important.

Reading about Forrest, he certainly seems to be an imposing and fearsome character. Given to feats of murderous, and some might say, psychotic acts of bravery, or savagery depending which accounts of his deeds you read. His physical description alone might have connected with Manalli or Zodiac.

"In person he is six feet one inch and a half in height, with broad shoulders, a full chest and symmetrical, muscular limbs, erect in carriage, and weighs 185 pounds; dark gray eyes, dark hair, mustache, and beard worn upon the chin; a set of regular set teeth and clearly cut features," which altogether, makes him rather a handsome man for one forty-seven years of age.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:23 am

Here’s the part from Blaketia that had me looking at that stuff.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:37 am

Comments welcome on this one. Does anyone know what a tarbox is? There are many references to it being a name. The only other reference I can find for it, which makes sense, is from John Updike’s novel "Couples" which is centred in the fictional town of Tarbox.

You may also note the homosexual references in this section. The biting buttocks bit got me but I don’t think it all that stuff about Bundy came out till after Manalli was dead.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:45 am

A rather unusual metaphor.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:19 am

From "A Day That Might Never Come"

An obvious reference to this:-

Berlin ultimatum
In November 1958, Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev issued an ultimatum giving the Western powers six months to agree to withdraw from Berlin and make it a free, demilitarized city. At the end of that period, Khrushchev declared, the Soviet Union would turn over to East Germany complete control of all lines of communication with West Berlin; the western powers then would have access to West Berlin only by permission of the East German government. The United States, United Kingdom, and France replied to this ultimatum by firmly asserting their determination to remain in West Berlin and to maintain their legal right of free access to that city.

So it’s a reasonable assumption, given Manalli’s service dates and mentioning living in Germany and specifically referencing Berlin, that he was stationed there for this occurrence and has used the experience as part of his writing.

The one thing I can’t get out of my is that theory, or suggestion, that the Timex watch found at the CJB murder scene my have been bought at a military PX in Europe.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:26 am

Some interesting Finds to kick around Trav. Personally, although the timing of the personal AD 2 days after Manalli died is incredible,I dont want to go too far off looking for clues about it because you never know where of when it will end. As far as a ‘Tarbox’,here are some possible things:

Tarbox, Massachusetts is a fictional town that serves as the setting for the 1968 novel Couples and several short stories by American author John Updike. It is based on Ipswich, Massachusetts, the small coastal town where Updike lived from 1957 to 1974.
It’s interesting partly as a period piece, but it also shows (along with a few of the stories in "Tarbox Tales") John Updike discovering what, in my opinion, is still his most interesting and most enduring subject.”

Maybe Manalli was a fan of this guy?

John Hoyer Updike (March 18, 1932 – January 27, 2009)[1] was an American novelist, poet, short story writer, art critic, and literary critic.Updike’s most famous work is his Harry "Rabbit" Angstrom series (the novels Rabbit, Run; Rabbit Redux; Rabbit Is Rich; Rabbit At Rest; and the novella "Rabbit Remembered"), which chronicles Rabbit’s life over the course of several decades, from young adulthood to his death. Both Rabbit Is Rich (1981) and Rabbit At Rest (1990) received the Pulitzer Prize. Updike is one of only three authors (the others were Booth Tarkington and William Faulkner) to win the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction more than once. He published more than twenty novels and more than a dozen short story collections, as well as poetry, art criticism, literary criticism and children’s books. Hundreds of his stories, reviews, and poems appeared in The New Yorker, starting in 1954. He also wrote regularly for The New York Review of Books.Later, Updike and his family relocated to Ipswich, Massachusetts. Many commentators, including a columnist in the local Ipswich Chronicle, asserted that the fictional town of Tarbox in Couples was based on Ipswich. Updike denied the suggestion in a letter to the paper.[13] Impressions of Updike’s day-to-day life in Ipswich during the 1960s and 1970s are included in a letter to the same paper published soon after Updike’s death and written by a friend and contemporary.[14] In Ipswich, Updike wrote Rabbit, Run (1960), on a Guggenheim Fellowship, and The Centaur (1963), two of his most acclaimed and famous works; the latter won the National Book Award.

Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:52 am

Comments welcome on this one. Does anyone know what a tarbox is? There are many references to it being a name. The only other reference I can find for it, which makes sense, is from John Updike’s novel "Couples" which is centred in the fictional town of Tarbox.

No idea. Does it actually say ‘tarbox’ looks like the ‘t’ was missed originally? Maybe it’s a misspelling of hatbox? What is written in the very next paragraph, maybe there’s a clue?

EDIT: I found this reference: n. A box containing tar, carried by shepherds for anointing sores on sheep.

Perhaps it can also mean any small box that holds some sort of lotion or cream in more modern times?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:58 am

Yeah, it’s definitely tarbox. Looks worse here than on the PDF. Good find on the other references.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:06 am

Maybe Manalli was a fan of this guy?

Or Jealous of him lol. I would say it’s a fair chance he read his stuff. And Faulkner’s stuff as well as we know he did. That’s why I found the KKK stuff interesting because an account of that would have contained killings, hoods, death by fire, gun, knife and rope. Fire and rope being the most prominent. Slaves and not to mention Forrest. It always bugged me that one and I wondered was it really a spelling mistake. Who knows.

There’s maybe also something in what was written on the HC envelope, or rather how it was written. The KKK was long associated with the burning cross symbol but that wasn’t originally it was represented, as the upright cross. It was originally the St Stephen cross from the Scottish flag, basically and x. The same configuration of the "sorry no cipher" message.

Luke68, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:46 am

Probably total coincidence but there are some interesting parallels in Updike’s ‘Couples’. Not saying that Manalli read this, just found them when looking for ‘tarbox’.

The "couples" of the title are ten married pairs living in Tarbox, Massachusetts, whose lives are governed by a "calendrical wheel" of parties and … It "fucks up our party," as the resident games- master, Freddy Thorne, puts it (294).

By the way, Freddy is a dentist (as per Boniface in the text by Manalli):

Over the whole group hovers the satanic, death-worshiping Freddy Thorne. He is a dentist by trade

Of course, his name is Freddy too!

"What Freddy Thorne sees in me…" She deflected the compliment. "He thinks we’re a circle. A magic circle of heads to keep the night out.

EDIT: I haven’t read Manalli’s book (Blakenia Sextet) so this is more of a question to Trav:

Can you see parallel’s between ‘Couples’ (about 10 philandering couples in a fake town called Tarbox) and Blakentia (i.e. is this the name of a fake town in the novel) Sextet (does this refer to a number of characters in the book?)

duckking2001, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:52 am

In secret societies The Brotherhood primarily refers to the Order of the Free Masons. The Skull and Bones society, a collegiate society was also called the Brotherhood, as well as the KKK, and apparently the name for the revolutionary group in Orwell’s 1984. All of these groups have symbols which use crosses and other geometric shapes, but don’ t really look like the Zodiac symbol, which most resembles a Celtic cross, outside of astrology. The symbol is used by many white power and racist groups, as other members have noticed. In particular the Minutemen.

http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_celtic_cross.asp

Was Manelli connected to any racist organization? I couldn’t find any specific symbols for any Bocce ball clubs, but you can find ones that use a stylized ball design that sorta looks Zodiac-ish. The game is popular amongst Italian-Americans, who generally happen to be Catholic. I bring that up because of the mention of the Knights Of Columbus, a Catholic group. Other groups like the Masons and the Klan are anti-Catholic. The use of the Celtic cross doesn’t seem to have any specific catholic or protestant connotation among white power groups, as far as I know, but I think most of them in America are Protestant.

Was FM Catholic?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:52 am

EDIT: I haven’t read Manalli’s book (Blakenia Sextet) so this is more of a question to Trav:

Can you see parallel’s between ‘Couples’ (about 10 philandering couples in a fake town called Tarbox) and Blakentia (i.e. is this the name of a fake town in the novel) Sextet (does this refer to a number of characters in the book?)

I can yes, especially the Dentist bit. Possible influence at least, it’s hard to parallel … ok I’m going to abbreviate it from now on to the rather apt BS (hehehe)… it’s hard to parallel BS because it’s slightly unusual. It’s less like reading a short story and more like reading someone’s account of a dream they had.

As for the ‘Sextet’ bit, no, it actually refers to the number of stories that make up the BS, or rather ‘made’ up as there should have been size but only five were published. No idea what or where the sixth one was.

Was FM Catholic?

No idea. Morf?, Seagull?

I don’t recall anything in his letters that indicate what he was. For some reason I’m thinking Catholic but that may be because of the Italianish name. His general lack of immediate family though might suggest otherwise.

morf13, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:20 am

Idont know if Manalli was catholic or not. With an italian last name,if I had to guess,I would say yes. I will see if I have any addl details in any of the obits for him

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:53 am

Comments welcome on this one. Does anyone know what a tarbox is? There are many references to it being a name. The only other reference I can find for it, which makes sense, is from John Updike’s novel "Couples" which is centred in the fictional town of Tarbox.

Concerning Tarbox as a name connected to the Zodiac case:

"In 2009, a lawyer named Robert Tarbox (who, in 1975, had his law license suspended in California for failure to pay some clients) said that in 1972 a merchant marine walked into his office and confessed to him that he was the Zodiac Killer. The seemingly lucid seaman (whose name Tarbox would not reveal due to confidentiality) described his crimes briefly but persuasively enough to convince Tarbox. The man claimed he was trying to stop himself from his "opportunistic" murder spree but never returned to see Tarbox again. Tarbox took out a full-page ad in the Vallejo Times-Herald in which he cleared the name of Arthur Leigh Allen as a killer, his only reason for revealing the story 30 years after the fact."

But! this incident took place in 1972, 6 years AFTER FM wrote that "Blakenia Sextet" book.

I know this Robert Tarbox probably had nothing to do with the tarbox reference in FM’s "Blakenia Sextet" book, just wanted to mention it.

Seagull, Subject: Re: Fred Manalli Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:46 am

Lot’s of stuff to address this morning regarding recent posts.

First I would say yes, Manalli was Catholic. He was buried in Calvary Cemetery in Santa Rosa. It is a Catholic cemetery.

http://www.catholiccemeteries-dsr.org/C … _Rosa.html

Coincidentally, the first two SRHM victims, Maureen Sterling and Yvonne Weber are also buried in that same cemetery.

TF, I too made the connection between Manalli’s writing of "tarbox" in his Blalentia Sextet story and the attorney Tarbox. Manalli wrote the word about three or four times so there is no denying that it is the word he meant. If we were to imagine that Manalli is the Zodiac and the story that Robert Tarbox told is true then it would seem to fit quite nicely. The trouble I have with considering that scenario is Manalli tended to think of himself as an intellectual not a worker and I doubt that Manalli would know much about being a merchant marine. Another obstacle would be the merchant marine Z-card that was shown to Tarbox. It could have been a forged or stolen document but Manalli did not strike me as the type to have the street smarts to come up with something like that. He really seemed oblivious to the world around him, as if he did not consider things outside of the world in his own head where he was the next literary genius waiting for recognition.

Trav, the title story in Manalli’s thesis Blakentia Sextet is made up in six parts, I think that is where the Sextet come in to play. I believe the thesis itself is complete and there is no missing sixth story.

Manalli’s letters seem to indicate that he has grandmother issues. The Blakentia Sextet story has a matron type character, Seraphina, who I would guess is fashioned after his grandmother. Seraphina is gunned down by machinegun fire in the story. I thought that part was rather telling. I have not read the entire thesis yet, just the first two stories but it does seem to me that Manalli is writing from the heart, fictionalizing his own life experiences.