yep could have easily been a Jag..E Type jaguar..early ones had toggle switches later versions had rocker switches.one of my fav cars..big bucks today..but jag would tie in nicely with X..pretty sure he had a jag dealership for years

I think Crow stated facts as he knew them that night and later changed his story, but I am wondering why you (Mike) think KQ was out on LHR and just happened (or followed) upon Crow and his GF? And why hang out to kill kids in a Rambler? And who was with KQ in the car that night?

the old timers in the MG (X started impoting them in 1947) world might be a source..i have little doubt that white sports car was an MG or an allard

What "old timers"?
What white MG?/allard? sports car?

Crow is a skunk and plays incredible mind games with me but I believe the car he was fidgeting with ("toggle switches" on dash) that night may well have been a Jaguar, and his GF was from Napa but was living in SF at the time she bought it. Did she buy it in Napa or SF? That’s the question. Guess who the biggest Jag dealer in SF was in 1968. KQ would also have imported Hartnell’s Ghia, and it was owned by an ex-employee of KQ’s. His name sure does come up a lot in weird places for someone who has nothing to do with the case, like Riverside, PH, a speed boat enthusiast living near LB, etc.

Mike

Where has it been stated it was a jaguar Crow and his girlfriend was driving that night?
Do you have the name of the girlfriend?
And why would Crow play incredible mind games with you? do you have an idea about that?

KQ would also have imported Hartnell’s Ghia, and it was owned by an ex-employee of KQ’s.

How did the owner of a vehicle registered and licensed in Oregon have a relationship with Qvale?

How do you know it was owned by an ex-employee?

Hi-

There is info in the section of the LHR police reports that Butterfield did not steal from me that suggests that Crow may not be telling us the entire story. That is all I’ll say. I have had contact with Crow twice since 2005 and he is a friend of a friend of mine. Crow always promises to help me but then disappears into thin air. I spoke to him once in late 2004. I have been after him for information for years. I want to know the name of his companion to see if she will back up his story (and which version!). I also want to know what he was driving that night.

I obviously cannot place KQ on LHR that night. I also don’t know who would have been with him. I am just proposing that Crow may have been driving a Jag that night for various reasons suggested in the police reports and if so, that is something that might have made someone like KQ do a double-take as he passed by, especially if the car were purchased at his dealership. Did Allen like sports cars? Sure. Absolutely. The info about the Jag and KQ is purely speculative. I do not build my case around it by any means but I keep it in the back of my mind.

At the very least, we know that Crow was driving a "foreign sports car," which was KQ’s specialty. How can anyone ask me why KQ or anyone else stayed around to shoot kids in a Rambler? You would have had have to ask him!

And as for Crow, even his friends concede he is a frustrating guy.

Mike

its all interesting stuff but yea its not explicit proof..its fun though..early jag pulling a speed boat and yea X could have been wiping down blood or torching his clothes and he would have smiled then got back to business..i do not know what to think about crow but it seems to me he likes to make one think he has some info and when pressed on it he goes home to mommy and says he is getting bullied..i have never read anything were his passenger became known..crow was probably alone..heck i dunno-god speed

I would like to see some explicit proof myself that hartnels VW ghia was an previously owned by an employee of X…just some mechanic/janitor having it is a dead end to me but if the ex employee was a fiend of X I will play..

I don’t recall all the details (Mike may correct me if I’m wrong) but Hartnell’s car was registered (as per 1969) to a person (I don’t remember his name, but it has been posted somewhere on here before) who used to work at a car dealership owned by KQ and run by KQ’s brother (in Portland, Oregon).

These are facts, AFAIK – so Hartnell DID drive a car owned by an ex-employee of KQ’s, whatever this means.

Norse is right. The Ghia was owned by a guy who used to work at Riviera Motors in Portland, which was KQ’s VW dealership and importer. I think the impound report is on the Net.

Mike

Thanks for the explanation.

Not to make light of it, but wouldn’t that be more of a coincidence than anything? Or, not, since it seems a lot of those types of cars would simply become associated with KQ.

Thanks for the explanation.

Not to make light of it, but wouldn’t that be more of a coincidence than anything?

Certainly could be. But in the context of Mr X (as Z, that is), it’s an interesting fact – and, I dare say, more substantial than much which is brought up pertaining to other POIs.

That said, the link is obviously fairly tenuous – nor is it a clear one in terms of significance (what it actually means): X imports certain cars – and as Z he goes after people who drive them. Except he clearly doesn’t, as a rule – Hartnell is an exception. There is no X link with the other victims’ cars.

But it’s still a – genuinely – interesting fact. *

* Precisely how interesting it is, is a matter of statistics, really – how many VWs did X import, what are the actual odds of Hartnell driving one of them, how common/uncommon was the car in question, etc.

Hi-

Sure it could be coincidence. But what about the possibility that KQ was driving around LB and came upon a couple in a car he knew he had imported and that is what caught his attention. It was a VW with Oregon plates. That screams "Riviera Motors." KQ used to autograph cars that had special meaning to his career. He did so at luxury car shows. What other killer had ever autographed a car? Where did Z get that idea from? KQ can explain that behavior. Zodiac autographed a car that had a special significance to KQ’s career by autographing a VW. KQ made tons of money selling them. Just read Lunches. What other suspect was known to autograph cars in black felt tip and in white ink (in one instance)? Only KQ, right?

KQ and Z behaved similarly. Both wrote on cars. Both used Monarch sized paper. Both sought front page attention, KQ some 20 years before there was a Zodiac. I am still waiting for someone to tell me the name of another suspect who ever was known to write even one letter on Monarch sized paper. KQ did to me–twice.

I didn’t try to imply that KQ went out looking for cars he had imported and that he kills people in those cars. But I am saying that when he stumbled onto them, like the possible Jag on LHR and Hartnell’s VW, they caught his attention.

Mike

Can you share his handwriting or was it typed?

I didn’t try to imply that KQ went out looking for cars he had imported and that he kills people in those cars. But I am saying that when he stumbled onto them, like the possible Jag on LHR and Hartnell’s VW, they caught his attention.

I don’t think that’s beyond the realm of possibility – and if we presuppose (which I largely do) that the precise nature of Z’s victims was less important to him than the act of, well, killing them (which was, in its turn, less important than using their deaths to boost his notoriety) – then, yes, it’s plausible enough that a thing like what you suggest could have been a triggering factor, so to speak. I wouldn’t rule that out.

But we still need to explain what Z (in this case KQ) was doing on LHR in the first place. For my money he KNEW that the murder scene was a lovers’ lane – and that is not information anybody would possess. It points to someone with ties of some sort to the area – not someone who just happened to pass by. And this is reinforced, I would claim, when we add BRS – another hit in the same, pretty obscure area.

Hi-

People who drove sports cars knew lots of back roads where you could open them up. There were road rallies in the 1950s and 1960s that traversed all sorts of back roads–miles of them. Who better than a sports car guy to know those obscure back roads?

Mike