Hi Mike, just wondering if you think it is possible that Mr. X’s involvement in the Bohemian Club could have somehow played a part in the Zodiac crimes. I personally don’t think he was Z, but I do think he very well could have been involved in some way. Have you ever heard of an architect named George Livermore? In 1966, he lived just a few houses down from the corner of Washington & Cherry. Could have easily seen the murder take place if he were in his front yard. I’m not sure if he lived there at the time of the murder because in the ’69-’70 S.F. directory, he was listed at an apartment a mile south of there. But Livermore is interesting to read about. I have a suspicion that he could have been involved in some way and easily could have known Mr. X. I have been talking to a friend of Livermore’s, and he tells me that ol’ George had a few skeletons in his closet (liked to dress in drag, had a thing for young girls… things like that).

EDIT: Livermore was also a member of the Bohemian Club

Hi-

KQ’s membership in the Bohos serves to emphasize what I was up against in trying to make any headway in having the authorities investigate him. He was a wealthy man with tons of clout and belonged to the biggest power organizations in SF–country clubs, etc. The authorities gave him a much wider berth than they’d give average folks like me in conducting a homicide investigation. That is how I ended up questioning him, and not the police doing so.

As for your suspect, I really know nothing about him. Anything is possible, and it is much more likely that Z lived in PH given that he was a power-assertive killer than it is that he lived in the Tenderloin. So you are at least in the right neighborhood, IMHO.

Mike

Hi-

KQ’s membership in the Bohos serves to emphasize what I was up against in trying to make any headway in having the authorities investigate him. He was a wealthy man with tons of clout and belonged to the biggest power organizations in SF–country clubs, etc. The authorities gave him a much wider berth than they’d give average folks like me in conducting a homicide investigation. That is how I ended up questioning him, and not the police doing so.

As for your suspect, I really know nothing about him. Anything is possible, and it is much more likely that Z lived in PH given that he was a power-assertive killer than it is that he lived in the Tenderloin. So you are at least in the right neighborhood, IMHO.

Mike

I don’t think Livermore is a suspect, I just think he could have possibly had some tie to the whole thing. A thought I had is that maybe Zodiac was sent to take out Livermore but something went wrong and he ended up having to kill Stine. There was a psychopath about a mile away that owed Livermore a significant amount of money, and he did not like to pay his debts even though he was rich. He was very violent. Or maybe Livermore pissed off somebody at Bohemian Grove. Those are just a few things I am looking into. But yeah, not surprised the police would not help you at all. Damn rich people!!

Do you think a Z conspiracy (for lack of a better word – but that’s what we’re talking about, more or less, if KQ was involved without being the actual killer) is possible without there being specific motives behind each of the murders? Why were the canonical Z victims targeted?

See, my problem with any kind of Team Z angle is that I just don’t see any plausible, rational motive(s) – nor anything which ties these crimes together. Which then leaves the possibility of the victims being targeted for a more, say, ritualistic reason. But there is nothing ritualistic – apparently – about the murders themselves, apart from LB (and even that doesn’t conform to what I would expect from some kind of Satanic brotherhood or a similar group). Lastly, I don’t think the Z letters fit the bill if we’re dealing with any kind of group effort. A couple of people, working together, with one doing the letter writing – yes, I can buy that. But not a larger group. Just my opinion.

There is, however, another way in which KQ could be involved in these events without being the killer. He could have been protecting someone.

agree on DNA..its useless at this point in time..not huge on multiple Z’s but with X it makes you wonder..X can be tied to every crime scene location at some point in time (not say X is the Z)..i do not see any satanic or ritualistic killings here either..i dont see TK aligning himself with Z but what I do see is possibly an associate of TK being the Z with TK at some point getting the hood as a trophy..yea thats wacky theory,,X just bugs me in Z speak..kinda think that old codger had to know way more than he ever let on…

Hi-

Ah, but there is something that ties all the crimes together. One of the top behavioral profilers in the world believes these are all crimes committed by a power-assertive killer. That is a person who is powerful, knows the taste of power and wants more and more of it-power that is limited only by the bounds of the killer’s own imagination. The reason it is your perception that there is nothing to ties the crimes together is that you are not (presumably) a forensic psychologist and therefore unable to see the common thread that links all the crimes together. But it is there…

Mike

Hi-

Ah, but there is something that ties all the crimes together. One of the top behavioral profilers in the world believes these are all crimes committed by a power-assertive killer. That is a person who is powerful, knows the taste of power and wants more and more of it-power that is limited only by the bounds of the killer’s own imagination. The reason it is your perception that there is nothing to ties the crimes together is that you are not (presumably) a forensic psychologist and therefore unable to see the common thread that links all the crimes together. But it is there…

Mike

I was thinking first and foremost of the possibility of KQ being involved in the murders without being the actual killer, Mike. More specifically in a conspiracy type setting, as some sort of cult leader, say. And in that setting I feel you need either a specific connection between the victims (e.g. they had all betrayed the cult) or a specific, ritualistic method of execution – neither of which are present to a necessary degree for me.

If we’re simply talking about the possibility of KQ being Z – without any conspiracies to complicate matters – there is no need for either specific motives or rituals. What links the killings is the killer, pure and simple – and as an explanation for WHY he did it, the power assertive angle is as good as any, not to say that it’s a great deal better than many other takes on it I have seen over the years.

On the same note, what would you say to this:

Let’s assume that we’re dealing with a certain powerful figure here who did not kill anyone himself but who knew the killer and assisted him in various ways (which our figure would have been in a good position to do, given his wealth and his connections).

Two possible variations on that theme: 1. Our figure does this because he’s compelled to. He owes the killer for one reason or another and has no choice – from his point of view – other than to help him out. 2. Our figure isn’t necessarily compelled to assist the killer but he does so anyway. Partly because he’s thrilled by it, perhaps. He regards it as a dangerous game – and he likes to play dangerous games.

Just speculatin’ wildly here.

There are several points about the case which I cannot easily reconcile with the idea of KQ as the Zodiac killer. But at the same time there are certain things I just can’t ignore. KQ is in the mix here whether one likes it or not – because he is, without a shadow of a doubt, part of the Stine murder story. He was accosted by AP minutes after Z left the cab under circumstances which can only be described as puzzling, given both AP’s varying accounts of what happened and KQ’s own denial that he was even in the country at the time.

Something doesn’t add up regarding the whole Stine business – and I’m more certain than ever that the key to the case is to be found right there.

Hi-

Vince is a cop and not a profiler. The one thing I wish to correct about his take on my evidence is that Richard Walter always points out (and you can find references to this on the Net) that over 70% of major cases are tried and won on the type of circumstantial evidence I have amassed against KQ. He believes that KQ fits the power-assertive profile of Z and that my evidence is strong enough to prove that KQ was Z. Of course, the police believe that blood is red, the grass is green and the sky is blue. They want DNA, prints and handwriting. Sure they do. But sometimes you can’t get what you want (especially when the police refuse to investigate KQ and refuse to treat him like they would you and me). And circumstantial evidence can be strong enough to get a conviction.

KQ looked like the sketch, lived down the street from one of the crime scenes, was spoken to by the police after the Stine murder, wrote to me on Monarch sized paper, was an attention seeker on a large scale as far back as the 1940s, and the dates of his mother’s death and father’s birth match Z murder dates. It goes on. Norse references, ties to the UK, made misleading statements to me repeatedly at out 2006 face to face meeting, etc.

It is hard for me to tell where he ends and Z begins.

Mike

Do you think a Z conspiracy (for lack of a better word – but that’s what we’re talking about, more or less, if KQ was involved without being the actual killer) is possible without there being specific motives behind each of the murders? Why were the canonical Z victims targeted?

See, my problem with any kind of Team Z angle is that I just don’t see any plausible, rational motive(s) – nor anything which ties these crimes together. Which then leaves the possibility of the victims being targeted for a more, say, ritualistic reason. But there is nothing ritualistic – apparently – about the murders themselves, apart from LB (and even that doesn’t conform to what I would expect from some kind of Satanic brotherhood or a similar group). Lastly, I don’t think the Z letters fit the bill if we’re dealing with any kind of group effort. A couple of people, working together, with one doing the letter writing – yes, I can buy that. But not a larger group. Just my opinion.

There is, however, another way in which KQ could be involved in these events without being the killer. He could have been protecting someone.

My thoughts exactly! I think Mr. X hid Z at his home after the Stine murder.

Just a thought, but… the Stine murder was so much different than the others in, well, every way possible. What if Zodiac started out doing his thing all by himself, and then KQ or some other rich person met him when he came to S.F., and learned of Z’s activity and wanted to play a part to satisfy his own fantasies? If this were the case, then this new person, the rich person, could have took charge of matters, so to speak, and given Z instructions to kill Stine. Was this rich person KQ, or a friend of his who KQ agreed to help out by hiding Z after the murder? Was this rich friend a member of the Bohemian Club? Was he connected to KQ because of his love for cars? Unfortunately, there is probably no way of ever finding a detailed list of KQ’s friends/associates.

The rich friend I am thinking of is Bill Thoresen, but there is no way to ever know if he and Qvale were friends or even knew each other. But maybe it is just a coincidence that a murderous psychopath just happened to live a mile away from the murder scene, collected Ferrari’s, was an amateur race car driver and was also an amateur rodeo rider. Thoresen liked to pay people to do his dirty work – had a hitman murder his brother, then killed the hitman himself when he showed up demanding more money. He paid a hitman to murder a friend of his that he believed was sleeping with his wife, but called off the hit just in time because he realized it could be traced back to him. He also had paid hitmen to murder his wife of a few occasions, and was shopping for a hitman to kill his parents. He was a controlling person and manipulated people to get what he wanted. He also was known to have all night parties at his mansion, often times with strangers he had met in the Presidio area. So what if Z just happened to be one of the people he met and partied with one night? He finds out who he is, and thinks of how he can use him to his advantage. But why kill Stine? I have no idea, just kinda spitting out nonsense at this point. But, like Mike R. has said, anything is possible.

Certainly seems possible that Thoresen may have known KQ, given his interests and the pair of them both being high society. Who would know? KQ’s kids, I guess – but I doubt they’d be inclined to give out any information at this point. Did the Chronicle or the Examiner have something like society pages back then? News about the rich and famous? A long shot – but maybe there’s an old journalist still around who would know if KQ and Thoresen traveled in the same circles.

On a general note, for me the following is a simple but important question:

Why did Z opt to strike in Presidio Heights? Was it simply location? Good place to strike, as it was guaranteed to boost his notoriety (crazy killer on the prowl in rich part of town, etc.)?

Or did he have – in some shape or form – a definite connection to PH?

To me, trying to imagine how Z may have reasoned, it doesn’t seem like the most obvious thing to do: Get into a cab, instruct the driver to take him to a residential area, smack in the middle of who knows how many potential witnesses. No – the most obvious thing to do is to get into a cab and have the driver take you to a place which offers more privacy before you pull the trigger. His notoriety was bound to get a huge boost anyway – simply from striking in SF, moving his murderous campaign to the big city. In terms of notoriety the victim is more important than the location: Z didn’t murder a high and mighty resident of PH. Yes, it would likely be noticed that he struck in a wealthy part of town rather than the opposite, but his victim was still a cab driver, not a banker.

It’s obvious why he chose to kill a cabbie – Paul Stine was an easy target. Just like the kids he had previously attacked. But it is not so obvious why he opted to strike where he did. He could have chosen a more suitable location in my opinion, which would have made the murder easier to pull off. And I think the latter aspect was important to Z. He went for easy targets – that’s consistent throughout.

So, in my opinion it is not unreasonable to suggest that PH was chosen because it offered something specific, something a different (and otherwise better) location did not offer.

He gets out of the cab and walks north on Cherry. And then he turns east. That’s perhaps the most interesting, pardon the pun, turn of events in the whole case.

Certainly seems possible that Thoresen may have known KQ, given his interests and the pair of them both being high society. Who would know? KQ’s kids, I guess – but I doubt they’d be inclined to give out any information at this point. Did the Chronicle or the Examiner have something like society pages back then? News about the rich and famous? A long shot – but maybe there’s an old journalist still around who would know if KQ and Thoresen traveled in the same circles.

I’m of the impression that if KQ did know Thoresen, he probably didn’t let many people know about their friendship. Thoresen had a pretty lengthy police record and was considered a "weirdo." The newspapers had stories on him a lot of times when he would get in trouble, especially after he was busted with more than 70 tons of weapons & ammo in his home. But he lived just 8 blocks from KQ, and definitely had similar interests.