Rader’s "Slaves in the Afterlife" concept was discussed briefly here, WC.

viewtopic.php?f=99&t=877

He did have a specific acronym for the idea and claimed to have fantasized specific roles that each of the Otero family victims would take to serve him in the afterlife.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill … tk/46.html

My personal opinion is that this and many other ideas were lifted directly from his reading about the Zodiac case. The fantasy may have been real but I don’t believe it was original. This kind of fantasy actually seems to fit Rader/BTK much better than Zodiac, IMO.

I agree that Rader probably ‘borrowed’ the concept from San Fran’s Z.

I am no personality expert but I would hazard a guess that if Dennis Rader were The Zodiac then he’d have informed us of it long ago. Rader is supposed to have said that it was the worst day of his life when the police stopped asking him questions, such is this man’s need to feel important and powerful. If he were even remotely linked to Z and the crimes, then he surely would have called a press conference to reveal all.

Come on! The Zodiac murders and the BTK murders could not possibly be more different from each other in terms of signature and the profile of the killer. BTK was a sexual sadist. Zodiac was not a sadist, nor was he a sexual killer. Z had a power signature to his crimes. So they both wrote letters. BTK could not figure out how to get the same publicity Z did and even whined about it. If they were the same person, by 1974 BTK would have been much more skilled at manipulating the press from his prior experiences. But the letter writing is a moot point. BTK killed for MUCH different reasons than Z did.

Mike

Hi-

I am not directing this at you WC or any anyone in particular but the whole issue of Z and BTK being the same person goes right to the heart of my argument about amateurs posting their "profiles" of Z. This speculation about BTK and Z being the same person goes back long before BTK was caught in 2005. There were people making the argument that by 1974, Z was wrapping up his California activities and had maybe moved to Wichita.

Here is one MB statement from April 2001, "I think Zodiac became BTK and the Jan 15th 1974 crimes in Kansas were the end of Zodiac."

Here is a thread: http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/mess … 1171493202

The speculation by amateurs about BTK and Z being the same person is the reason amateurs should not post their profiles of killers. Period. We just don’t have the background and foundation to understand the differences between the various types of killers and can’t recognize two very different types of killers who both happened to write to the press. So we latch onto the superficial commonality of them both writing letters to try to suggest they may be the same person when the actual crime signatures between the two killers could not have been more starkly different.

I’d suggest people read a book called Signature Killers by Dr. Robert Keppel. In it, he describes sexual killers, sadism, anger killers, piquerism and cannibalism. There are sections that are kind of repetitive but overall it fleshes out the hallmarks of a sexual killer, such as BTK.

Mike

Mike if it was directed at me personally, nothing wrong with being critical and/or disagreeing. I do, however, disagree with your assessment.

"Zodiac was not a sadist, nor was he a sexual killer." Really? So what would you label as his stabbing Cecelia in the groin if not Sadistic?

What you may deem as sexual when ascribing a motive to their actions, are not what a warped mind may deem as sexual satisfaction. For example, just because there is no sexual assault during a stabbing, doesn’t mean the motive for it is not sexual because to some sexual deviants the stabbing itself is the penetration.

"The Zodiac murders and the BTK murders could not possibly be more different from each other in terms of signature and the profile of the killer." Well yes, Zodiac seemed to act on impulse when coming across suitable victims, BTK took months selecting, then stalking, his prey before acting. But my point on the similarities was not the crimes they committed, but rather the men committing them and their seeming need to gain recognition for the crimes.

I agree that the crimes of each man have little in common. But then again, can we place any label on Zodiac and be satisfied? If we determine Zodiac’s signature was shooting couples in deserted lovers lanes then you have to explain Paul Stine. If we say he’s a killer who’s kills with a firearm, but never the same one twice, then what happened at Berryessa? If we say that he was driven to commit these crimes because he simply needed to see his work featured on the front pages of the Chronicle, along with his own words, because he simply needed to feel important and gain recognition then did he simply wake up on the morning of November 9, 1969 and decide that he had grown rather angry with police for telling lies about him, so much so that he now was able to kick his most serious of addictions just because an Inspector had called him a few names?

Living somewhat nearby the BTK saga ,I remember the story when it broke here . there was talk of him being the Zodiac , from mostly local news stations for a few days ,but later they stated relatives now against him and others told that he was not at the areas of the murders at the time . he was in cal. in that era up in the service -Army?
With his murderous nature he should have been excited by the zodiac’s activities

Living somewhat nearby the BTK saga ,I remember the story when it broke here . there was talk of him being the Zodiac , from mostly local news stations for a few days ,but later they stated relatives now against him and others told that he was not at the areas of the murders at the time . he was in cal. in that era up in the service -Army?
With his murderous nature he should have been excited by the zodiac’s activities

Rader probably admired Zodiac for not getting caught. While BTK seemed to ‘get off’ far more than Zodiac did in committing the murders themselves, a big Part of BTK’s motive, and this is just my non-professional opinion, was the publicity and attention he thought it would generate. He didn’t hide his disappointment and frustration when, after he had struck several times, the media seemed to show no interest and Reader sent a letter asking "How many do I have to kill before I get my name in the papers and some National attention?"

Rader’s sense of importance and ego doesn’t just demand State wide publicity, he must have National recognition because he deserves it.

Hi-

I am not directing this at you WC or any anyone in particular but the whole issue of Z and BTK being the same person goes right to the heart of my argument about amateurs posting their "profiles" of Z. This speculation about BTK and Z being the same person goes back long before BTK was caught in 2005. There were people making the argument that by 1974, Z was wrapping up his California activities and had maybe moved to Wichita.

Mike

Mike, keep in mind that not nearly as much was known about BTK during the active investigation as was known about Zodiac. Wichita P.D. sought to keep most of the details and communications from the public. Zodiac had written what could be considered as a "farewell" letter (the Exorcist letter) in January, 1974 two weeks to the day after Rader’s first murders of the Otero family. He told Kevin Bright (who survived) in April, 1974 that he was "wanted in California" (very probably another direct nod to Zodiac and indication of his familiarity with the Zodiac case). Clearly BTK’s motivations and methods were very different but the methods of taunting were extremely similar, probably because Rader copycatted a lot of Z’s schtick. I wouldn’t say it was crazy to believe the possibility that they were one and the same back then. I know for a fact that WPD investigators were interested in learning more about Zodiac as an influence on BTK e.g. looking at whether BTK’s code could be solved using Zodiac cipher substitution.

As far as "profiling" is concerned, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with amateurs offering opinions about personality traits etc. as long as it’s not confused with profession profiling. Quite honestly, profiling of BTK failed miserably since he was generally considered to be a unmarried loner living in the area of East Wichita where he was primarily killing. I do think profiling is an important and useful tool but it’s an imperfect tool.

Of interest, Robert Ressler was asked to provide a profile of BTK in 1997 and concluded that "because his pattern of killings has not been seen in Wichita since the ’70s, he has left the area, died or is in a mental institution or prison". In this case, I fault police for likely failing to reveal to him that BTK had sent a communication as recently as 1988 to the wife of Philip Fager and, I believe, was strongly suspected in the 1991 murder of Delores Davis, who he later confessed to murdering (that "new lead" which apparently fizzled back in 1991).

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill … uad_8.html

The profession profile is obviously only going to be as good as the information provided to the profiler. Garbage in… garbage out… I think the number of unknowns in the Zodiac case (like his involvement with Cheri Jo Bates) would make profiling a challenge.

,Below is a youtube vid of BTK before he was caught . he seems quite normal ,the dog barks at him ,he seems to know he is a killer
I saw this video back when he was caught and it clearly showed his face for 3-4 seconds . now that it is cut out, maybe the family threatend to sue. bet that neighbor doesn’t call the dog -catcher again
think of the plays of a video of Zodiac in action before he’s caught would get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2lUx9u_ihM