– Therese Dian Walsh, hog-tied & found near the place where Kim Wendy Allen had been found

Hey QT, how many times do I have to tell you that Allen and Walsh were found no where near each other? You posted a link to the area map from my website with the locations of where each girl was found yet you totally ignore the information. Kim Allen is the yellow dot, Theresa Walsh is the red dot, they were found no where near each other. Theresa was found far closer to the Franz Valley Road location than to Enterprise Road where Kim was found.

I have posted the death certificates of each victim on their respective pages. The location of where each victim was found can be found on the death certificate. Make your own map, maybe then you will understand. Why you believe what Graysmith wrote over the official documents in the case is beyond me.

– Maureen Sterling + Yvonne Weber, both ‘thrown to death’ alive down an embankment in Franz Valley

Both girls were found as skeletal remains, there is no cause of death for either on their respective death certificates. How do you come to the conclusion that they were "thrown to death alive" when their cause of death is not known?

Lori Lee Kursa was not found in a shallow grave. The 1979 Jane Doe, who was absolutely not Jeannette Kamahele, was found covered by debris from a seasonal creek 100 yards from where Lori Kursa was found.

Trying to connect the Manson Family to the SRHM is just silly. The people responsible for the Willett’s murders were arrested in November of 1972. None of them ever made bail between the time they were arrested and when they were sentenced for the Willett’s murders. Carolyn Davis was killed seven months after the arrests were made for the Willett’s murders.

Furthermore the Willett’s were not in the Manson Family prior to the Tate/LaBianca murders or ever. They hooked up with Monfort and Craig, both of whom were Aryan Brotherhood members, after all of that. Monfort and Craig as well as Billy Goucher were not Manson Family members. The only person, in that group arrested for the Willett’s murders, who was a Manson Family member was Nancy Pitman/Monfort.

You post is a stretch with many factual errors.

Thanks Foreigner, I am trying to..

Seagull, I do appreciate your site but would like to mention that you have never ‘told me’ that before.

Kim Wendy Allen was found southeast of Santa Rosa, right, nevertheless this is in the area of Santa Rosa (although not close to Franz Valley/Calistoga Road). She was found

a.) naked/raped
b.) in a rural area
c.) down an embankment and had
d.) ‘no obvious injuries on the body except scrach marks indicating the body rolled down the embankment’.

Time frame is a match as well as she had been found only one month after Sterling/Weber got missing.

However they later found out that she had been strangled and had a small stitch above her left breast, which however was not destroying her muscle tissue. I somewhere even read about that she had one earring missing. The sign on her soy barrell, after all, is not similar to any symbols connected with Z, imo. The sign is simply sort of a Chinese symbol while for the word ‘soy’.

Your second point, the ‘thrown to death‘ issue with Sterling/Weber. You are right, I am not able to prove that they had been still alive when being thrown down the embankment, but in fact they were found ‘dumped down a 60-foot embankment off a rural road’, with one gold earring missing from each girl (like Lori Lee Kursa and Carolyn Davis, too).

If you throw me down a 60-foot embankment, I’d be very happy to survive. Especially if I was a young girl such as Carolyn Davis, who also had been thrown quite far (30 feet, over some brushes, they thought it either was a very strong man or two people or more).

Third point. You mention that ‘Trying to connect the Manson Family to the SRHM is just silly’. But you agree that, in the murder of James Willett, ‘The only person in that group arrested for the Willett’s murders, who was a Manson Family member was Nancy Pitman/Monfort.’ So either there was this connection Nancy Pitman/Monfort to James Willett (‘police arrested two members of the Aryan Brotherhood inside, along with three Manson women’), or your point is that the Willett murder is no SRHM at all, which in fact could be true.

But then, one thing makes me wonder: Willett was found in Guerneville (where exactly?). Maureen/Sterling also had been seen getting into a car on ‘Guerneville Road’ and Greta Nansen Modecke was found in her sleeping bag in Guerneville as well.

I do see some connections between those cases (e.g. Kim Wendy Allen: Hitchhiking, Santa Rosa area, time frame, earring, rural area, nude, embankment, no obvious fatal injuries before being thrown) and definitely wonder what had been going on in that Guerneville and Franz Valley area at that time.

Manson’s friends in the area? Throwing down teenagers for fun? I can’t proove it, but would definitely like to know how far the murder site of James Willett is away from Guerneville Road as well as the one of Greta Nansen Modecke. That the Manson Family had been in the area at that time is definitely no good.

QT

http://denniskaufman.forumchitchat.com/ … ms-2967240 (earring – Kim Wendy Allen)
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ala/137.html
http://www.charliemanson.com/places/720-west-flora.htm
http://www.eviliz.com/2012/03/stockton- … -took.html
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop … f=46&t=375

Ok, so what is your point of view, regarding the connection of those homicides, en detail?

QT

QT, In all respect, I think you should answer Seagull’s questions insted of aswer her with questions…

Ok, so what is your point of view, regarding the connection of those homicides, en detail?

QT

QT, In all respect, I think you should answer Seagull’s questions insted of aswer her with questions…

please see above

Odd….last night theForeigner’s post came before Quicktrader’s long reply to Seagull.

Just to make it clear.

The Redwood Empire Ice Arena is actually located at 1667 W. Steel Lane Santa Rosa not on Guerneville Road but since it is only about a block’s difference it is not enough of a distance to quibble about. Guerneville Road is the more major road with there being on and off ramps to Highway 101 on that road very close to the ice arena.

James Willett was killed in the town of Guerneville which is not on Guerneville Road but located about 17 miles from the ice arena. Parker’s Resort, where they were living, was on Neely Road in Guerneville. Here is a map showing the distance from the ice arena(A) in Santa Rosa to Neely Road in Guerneville(B) and then to the Franz Valley Road site(C) where Sterling, Weber and Davis were found.

The press was very eager to label people as being in the Manson Family when in reality they came along after the Tate/LaBianca murders, the trials etc. and were not with the Family at Spahn Ranch or in Death Valley. Priscilla Cooper and Maria Alonzo were two that fall into that category. Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, who was a Family member, was arrested in Stockton at the same time as the others but she was picked up at the bus station as she was just arriving from the Los Angeles area and could not be placed in either Guerneville or Stockton at the time of either Willett’s murders. She was released and not charged.

The murders of Lori Kursa, Carolyn Davis and Theresa Walsh happened after these arrests. It is not know exactly when the 1979 Jane Doe died. That takes care of half of the SRHM victims. Will continue in a bit, my battery is dying.

I would like to address the earring issue that is cited by Graysmith and later Kelleher in their respective books. It is true that Kim Allen was found with only one earring. QT’s post mentions just Kim Allen’s earring so I’m not trying to correct that part of his post.

The only two items of evidence found at the Franz Valley Road crime scene when Sterling and Weber were found was one earring- pierced type and a gold chain necklace with a cross. One earring for two girls not a single gold earring from each as stated in the author’s books.

Since Jeannette Kamahele was never found we have no way of knowing about her earring situation.

Lori Kursa was found with gold wire loops in pierced ears. No earrings attached. In BOTH of her ears.

There has been some discussion about what is meant by "gold wire loops, no earrings attached" in the past. I take this to mean that just the loop part of the earring with no dangling bit attached to it. Here is an example of what is called earring findings that accommodate the dangling bits. There are many styles now but back then I recall that they most commonly looked like the smaller version of #4. Girls would sometimes wear just the loops to make sure that the holes stayed open. I suspect that Sandy could back me up on this. I personally do not have pierced ears, never have.

On to Carolyn Davis who was found at the same Franz Valley Road site as Sterling and Weber. There were no earrings found at all at the scene. Two articles do mention a hole in an ear lobe that was being examined to try to determine of Carolyn had pierced ears. They are the Aug. 3 and Aug. 5, 1973 articles. The hole they were examining turned out to be decomposition.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/davis.html

Carolyn’s victim report says that no personal property was found at the scene.

Therese Walsh was found submerged under a log in Mark West Creek. There were no personal items found at the scene or on the victim’s person except for her upper false teeth which were apparently in place. One article does say that Therese had pierced ears but doesn’t address whether or not one or both of the earring were missing. The victim report that I have says "No Clothing or personal property found at the scene. The body was nude when dumped." No mention of earrings.

The only personal item found that apparently belonged to 1979’s Jane Doe was a hard contact lens. Nothing about earrings is mentioned in the newspaper articles I have and I do not have a victims report for her.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/jane_doe.html

To sum up, I believe that the one earring taken from each victim assertion is hogwash. I suppose it was invented to create the idea that the killer took a memento from each murder. In reality there was much more taken from the victims. Every victim was fully clothed and wore shoes. In the winter months this also included coats or jackets. All but Sterling and Weber had purses with ID and all the other items that women carry in them. Kim Allen, Carolyn Davis and Therese Walsh were all travelling with backpacks or satchels filled with clothing and other personal items. Allen and Walsh had had other jewelry items on at the time they were last seen, necklaces and rings.

I think to fixate on the earrings and disregard the other items is terribly misleading and reckless behavior by certain authors.

Lisa Smith…wonder if she is the SRHM Jane Doe?

Or if that is not possible at all? Who else could Jane Doe be, I don’t know about any SR teenager missing..wearing contact lenses, 5’3” tall, presumably auburn hair..

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/jane_doe.html
https://www.google.at/search?q=lisa+smi … e&ie=UTF-8

Thanks Deborah for the great articles,

QT

The Santa Rosa issue is almost as complicated as the Z homicides..

– Maureen Sterling + Yvonne Weber, both ‘thrown to death’ alive down an embankment in Franz Valley
– Kim Wendy Allen, ‘wrists and ankles’ bound, raped and strangulated
– Jeannette Kamahele
– Lauren Olmstead Willett + James T. Willett, they were associated with the Manson Family. James, like Greta Nansen Modecke, was found near Guerneville
– Lori Lee Kursa, ‘thrown to death’ alive down an embankment
– Therese Dian Walsh, hog-tied & found near the place where Kim Wendy Allen had been found
– Greta Nansen Modecke, was found stuffed in a sleeping bag near Guerneville
– Lawrence LeGrand, on the same day, was found thrown over a steep cliff North of Jenner
– Carolyn Nadine Davis, from Redding, also found in Franz Valley ‘not four feet’ from where Sterling/Weber were found
– Nancy D. Feusi
– Bowman, Dye, Fisher, Wyant and possibly others connected to those cases..
– Lisa Smith

Interesting that JAMES WILLETT, who had been associated with the Manson Family, was found near Guerneville – same area where Greta Nansen Modecke was found. His car was later found in front of a house with two Aryan Brotherhood members inside. If the Manson Family was present in the Santa Rosa area, this definitely would make me suspicious..and then, on the same day, Lawrence LeGrand was thrown over a cliff, same like Greta Modecke, but in the Jenner area.

There is a letter from Soledad, written by Carolyn Nadine Davis around the time she left her home near Anderson on Feb. 6, that was forwarded to officals. Undersheriff Robert Hayes said that inside the letter, several names were mentioned and they (Det. Sgts. Robert Walker and Joseph Thibodeau) would contact those people. Not mentioned if it ever happened (Morf13 what do you think is it worth to ask/file a request for this letter?) I wonder if one of those names may be connected to any members of the Manson Family..in addition to the Guerneville murders of Willett and possibly Modecke, this would connect Carolyn Davis to the Manson Family as well.

I know this is an old post, pretty common name but still worth looking into, maybe even been discussed.. just interesting that the 66 riverside college mag has a "Bob" Robert Hayes R H.. picture of him taking a picture page 87 got the glasses and a widows peak.. and he is a photographer.. maybe even took Cheris photo in the library, and the above undersheriff Robert Hayes.. could it be the same dude?

 

I hate to rain on this parade of Carolyn Davis/Greta Modecke/etc. posts, but I thought this was ZODIACkillersite.com. I’d have thought bringing Zodiac to justice would be enough to occupy us. Trying to solve every unsolved homicide in CA will only dilute our efforts.

Dag, at one time, in the mid 70s, the SRHM were investigated as possible Zodiac murders. Graysmith in his Zodiac books includes the murders as a part of the 37 murders that Zodiac claimed to have committed. Personally I do not agree that they were committed by Zodiac but there are still some people that believe they were.

Read the articles about the connection at my website, they are the ones written in 1975.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/articles.html

The theory is farfetched, imo, especially considering that it was dreamed up by LE!

I’ve often wondered if Bittaker and Norris may have traveled a little further north to commit the later SRHM. Might read up more on them now. The idea has always interested me.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrenc … Roy_Norris

Lisa Smith…wonder if she is the SRHM Jane Doe?

Or if that is not possible at all? Who else could Jane Doe be, I don’t know about any SR teenager missing..wearing contact lenses, 5’3” tall, presumably auburn hair..

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/jane_doe.html
https://www.google.at/search?q=lisa+smi … e&ie=UTF-8

Thanks Deborah for the great articles,

QT

Here’s one from Modesto that was listed as 5’4" and she has glasses in her pic (maybe she also had contact lenses?). Most of the other missing girls/women from CA in 1979 were much taller or shorter than 5’3" and didn’t seem to wear glasses or have contacts mentioned so all I got was Mary.

http://www.nampn.org/cases/watkins_mary.html

Interesting that JAMES WILLETT, who had been associated with the Manson Family, was found near Guerneville – same area where Greta Nansen Modecke was found. His car was later found in front of a house with two Aryan Brotherhood members inside. If the Manson Family was present in the Santa Rosa area, this definitely would make me suspicious..and then, on the same day, Lawrence LeGrand was thrown over a cliff, same like Greta Modecke, but in the Jenner area.

There is a letter from Soledad, written by Carolyn Nadine Davis around the time she left her home near Anderson on Feb. 6, that was forwarded to officals. Undersheriff Robert Hayes said that inside the letter, several names were mentioned and they (Det. Sgts. Robert Walker and Joseph Thibodeau) would contact those people. Not mentioned if it ever happened (Morf13 what do you think is it worth to ask/file a request for this letter?) I wonder if one of those names may be connected to any members of the Manson Family..in addition to the Guerneville murders of Willett and possibly Modecke, this would connect Carolyn Davis to the Manson Family as well.

I know this is an old post, pretty common name but still worth looking into, maybe even been discussed.. just interesting that the 66 riverside college mag has a "Bob" Robert Hayes R H.. picture of him taking a picture page 87 got the glasses and a widows peak.. and he is a photographer.. maybe even took Cheris photo in the library, and the above undersheriff Robert Hayes.. could it be the same dude?

Mr lowe perhaps you missed part of my post on the preceding page about the people who killed James Willett not being Manson Family members, save one woman. Nancy Pitman was a hardcore member of the Family but she was the only one of that group who was.

Trying to connect the Manson Family to the SRHM is just silly. The people responsible for the Willett’s murders were arrested in November of 1972. None of them ever made bail between the time they were arrested and when they were sentenced for the Willett’s murders. Carolyn Davis was killed seven months after the arrests were made for the Willett’s murders.

Furthermore the Willett’s were not in the Manson Family prior to the Tate/LaBianca murders or ever. They hooked up with Monfort and Craig, both of whom were Aryan Brotherhood members, after all of that. Monfort and Craig as well as Billy Goucher were not Manson Family members. The only person, in that group arrested for the Willett’s murders, who was a Manson Family member was Nancy Pitman/Monfort.

The Manson Family killed by stabbing and/or shooting. Their MO did not include strangulation, poisoning or hogtying which is how the SRHM victims were killed, at least the ones where the cause of death is known. Although not knowing the cause of death for at least three victims, if they had been stabbed or shot it would most likely be evident even with skeletal remains.

I posted some pages of the Grand Jury testimony that Billy Goucher gave prior to the trials for James Willets murder at the blog where I write. If you want to know more about the motives behind Willets murder, give it a read.

http://www.mansonblog.com/2015/01/billy … imony.html

Regarding the letter that Carolyn Davis wrote, the case is still open so LE will not share it. I have tried to obtain it and have had no luck.