Another interesting little coincidence…

Bjarne Qvale, Father of Kjell, (not to be confused with Kjells brother of the same name Bjarne Fredrik Qvale)…

Born: Sept. 27 1887. (As seen here: http://www.ancientfaces.com/person/bjar … e/82459593)

Bayarea60s stated:

"And both Fouke and Armand know who this mystery man is, and they both say "to hell with all those families this guy has killed, we have to protect him, cause he may sell us a car someday"? Now that deserves a giant please!"

Well that’s a rather good attempt to portray Kjell Qvale as just some local car salesman but in reality he owned numerous showrooms, share holder in many other businesses including Bank of the West which he went on to become sole owner of.

For such a regular car salesman, in 2008 his two sons were invitees to the Bohemian Grove, a who’s who of wealthy and influential people and a club that boast former US Presidents Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon as members.

Not bad for someone who may sell someone a car someday, is it? The truth is see Bayarea60s, Kjell was a very wealthy and influential person with friends in high places.

Bayarea60s said:

"In order to believe what you say here, you have to admit that Fouke’s is also confused, cause he saw Armand on foot."

Where does Don say Armond Pelissetti was on foot when he saw him on Cherry? In the Documentary he simply states "We turned southbound on Cherry & saw Armond Pelissetti one of the officers that had responded to the scene. He stopped us and said he was looking for the white male that had just gone down the street." No mention of whether he was on foot or in a vehicle.
Then in the Memo written by Fouke, he leaves seeing A.P out altogether and states that "when the right description was broadcast reporting officer informed communications that a possible suspect had been seen going North on Maple." Which is again consistent with my earlier claim that if A.P broadcasts the amended description within a minute or two of arriving at the scene and speaking with the witnesses, then Don should already know he’s a white male anyway before seeing A.P on Cherry.

So what are you saying Bay, you think it’s far more realistic that when told the suspect has just gone down Cherry Street a minute or two before you arrive, a suspect you know to be armed with a firearm with which he’s already put one bullet in a Cab driver head, that the best and safest way to go after this armed and extremely dangerous man at night and without backup is….. on foot? Armond himself states that "I walked that way myself I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars so I went down using every technique I knew so I didn’t get my head blown off." This is all after, mind you, Armond freely admits that he returns to his vehicle before taking off after the suspect because the teens had informed him that the suspect was not black, but white, to which Armond says, quote: " I couldn’t get to my radio fast enough to let everyone else know." That makes perfect sense to you does it? He dashes back to his car to broadcast the update, and then decides to walk down Cherry & Jackson ducking, weaving and crouching behind cars and in alcoves hoping and preying that a bullet isn’t going to be fired at his head with him being totally exposed and an easy target for a hidden gunman when he could simply and safely drive after the suspect and in doing so, vastly increase the likeliness of catching up with him before he gets off Jackson?

And Armond himself says that the kids told him that the white guy who did this walked away down Cherry St toward the Presidio. The Presidio that can be accessed right at the top of Cherry St, an access point that Armond, like Zodiac, seems uninterested in. You’d think it’s far more logical to assume that if Armond doesn’t have reason or cause to believe that the suspect is walking down the hill on Jackson, that he’d go straight for the entrance on Cherry and through to the Presidio not simply because the teens said the offender was heading that way but because Armond sees Don Fouke coming around the corner from Jackson onto Cherry. He therefore obviously knows that he’s come from the direction of Maple and driven up Jackson Street hill but just to affirm that he not only knows this, but also that nobody is on Jackson Street, Armond himself states "He didn’t mention to me that he had seen anybody at that point, or had stopped anybody." And then, having seen his fellow officer come from that direction 10 seconds ago and not report any person or strange suspicious activity at all, Armond proceeds down the same street his fellow officer has just came from and that he himself claims mentioned seeing absolutely nobody. Maybe a pink unicorn was running up Jackson and informed Armond some car salesman is on a drive down there and Armond dashed to the spot and upon arrival Kjell offered him 10% discount on his next vehicle if he’d let him go because, according to you, he’s just some car salesman. A car salesman who also happens to own a few ranches, couple of racetracks, numerous auto dealerships on Van Ness Avenue, Bank of the West, a multi-million dollar mansion and several other properties. I am not being sarcastic toward you personally, but A.P’s account. Don Fouke, however, states when A.P told him the suspect is white and gave him a description that he responded to Armond by saying "Oh S*it, that was the suspect" meaning the guy who just turned onto the drive. Now that makes sense for A.P to now dash to Maple if and because Don’s just told him what he saw and where! But listen to A.P and he’ll say he decides that he’s going to dash to Maple when the kids have told him the guy was heading toward the Presidio and he’s just spoken with a colleague that has literally seconds ago come from this direction and he claims did not mention seeing anyone at all. Armond didn’t go to the access point on Cherry St and in my opinion the most obvious reason why is because he was following up on info given to him by Don on Cherry that a white male, matching the given description, had just been seen ascending steps and proceeding onto a drive at the corner of Jackson & Maple.

So Bayarea60s, if anything deserves a big "Please!!" it’s the version as offered by Armond above, along with a "Are you serious?" from me in reaction to your seeming eagerness to swallow his inconsistent, illogical, counter-intuitive and impossible version of events that night.

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Who went missing from that very place where she worked as a nurse again? Oh yes, that’s right, Donna Lass. Who was it that claimed credit for seeking victim 12? Oh yeah, The Zodiac.

Sahara Lake Tahoe an Sahara Las Vegas..You do realize these are 2 entirely different places right?Although its a nice coinky dink..I dont see it amounting to much..

"You do realize these are 2 entirely different places?"

Yes of course, I though I’d write that earlier post with the specific intent to make myself look stupid. My fault for not living at or near Lake Tahoe. See if Lake Tahoe was in One State alone then it wouldn’t become a nightmare to know what specific part or region of Tahoe is in Nevada and which is in California.

Sorry, my mistake.

Both Sahara’s were in Nevada.

They were both once owned by Del Webb (when Donna worked at the Sahara Tahoe) who also owned a place in S.F. called the "Townehouse":

—Not so glamorous in this shot! http://www.flickr.com/photos/hollywoodplace/5034211747/

Thank you T. So just to confirm, Kjell’s brother was not the original designer of the Sahara Hotel that Donna worked at?

Just watched a KQ video on Youtube. I realize he’s 92 years old in that video, and probably has a slower speech cadence than he had 50 years ago, but when you hear him speak, you wonder about Hartnell’s description of a "precise cadence. Not an accent, but a very measured way of speaking." Or am I just hearing what I want to hear?

Looks to be a tall guy, as well.

Wolf Stated…..

"Just watched a KQ video on Youtube. I realize he’s 92 years old in that video, and probably has a slower speech cadence than he had 50 years ago, but when you hear him speak, you wonder about Hartnell’s description of a "precise cadence. Not an accent, but a very measured way of speaking." Or am I just hearing what I want to hear?

Looks to be a tall guy, as well."

KQ looks very thin as well. When thinking of KQ and LB, I think of the car that Z was driving, more specifically the tires. Since an important element for Z would be to make sure he gets away cleanly, I can’t see a guy like KQ driving a car with mis-matched tires.
KQ had dark hair, and wore black framed glasses (I think like 90% of Bay Area men wore those in late 60’s), other than that, to me he’s too tall, too skinny, and his nose is too big and broken (either the kids, Fouke, or Mike Mageau) would have notcied his nose. I can’t think of a highly successful businessman, at the time he had like 100 dealerships, was real involved with Bay Meadows and Golden Gate Racetracks back then, being a serial killer. KQ being Zodiac has always reminded of the old Columbo TV show plots. Highly successful person is the shows master killer. It makes for good theater stories, but I’ve never seen it in real life.
I think either Fouke or Armand would have named KQ out if they saw him at all that evening. there has been no reasonable explanation ever given for either of them to cover for KQ. I know intimidation has been implied, but that only applied to folks on Zodiac Boards, KQ could intimidate them, but it does not apply to SFPD, or any LE Departments.

I think Welsh makes a good point regardless of whether we buy the KQ theory or not: why did AP decide to follow what he now knew was an armed and dangerous suspect ON FOOT? A) it’s much safer to head north on Cherry, looking for a suspect, inside a police car and B) it’s much FASTER to do so (presumably you’d want to catch the guy, who left the scene not long ago).

Some further points:

* Fouke never says that he encountered Pelissetti WALKING on Cherry:

So we proceeded to the next block, which was Jackson and Cherry. Turned southbound on Cherry Street, saw Armond Pelissetti, one of the officers who had responded directly to the scene.

The fact that he mentions only AP and not his partner MAY indicate that he was alone (though not necessarily), but it doesn’t indicate that AP was on foot. AP may have been in the car. His partner may have remained at the crime scene to wait for the coroner et al.

* There is an undeniable and – to my thinking – rather strange discrepancy between what Fouke and AP have to say regarding their encounter. Fouke claims they had a "little conversation" in which the original description of the subject was discussed, and which ended with Fouke exclaiming "F**k, I just drove past the guy!" or words to that effect. AP on the other hand states clearly that Fouke never said that he had passed anyone. Again, this discrepancy is strange – it’s blatant and obvious, not something one can easily write off as being caused by faded memories or what have you. Seems like that to me, at least.

* AP’s account of his movements after having talked to the kids and ascertained it was murder and not a mugging…makes little sense. Firstly, I have a major problem with him doing his whole song and dance, including talking to the dog walker, BEFORE running into Fouke on Cherry St (and this is what he claims happened). Secondly, if we assume he didn’t meet Fouke when he first walked north on Cherry, following the killer (going by what the kids told him), why did he turn east on Jackson St? Why? The kids told him the killer had escaped north on Cherry, heading for the Presidio. This seems indisputable, whatever else may be disputed here. The most obvious escape route would have taken him, the killer, into the park area through the entrance point at the end of Cherry. It’s glaringly obvious. But AP goes east on Cherry, ignoring the most obvious entrance point. Why?

The kids had told me that whoever had done this crime left the cab, went out the door, seemed to be wiping the cab down, reaching into the cab and then ambling or walking down Cherry Street in a northerly direction, kind of towards the Presidio. I walked that way myself, I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars, so I went down following every technique I knew so I didn’t get my head blown off. Got down to the corner of Jackson Street, had to make a choice. I was on the east side of the street, so I turned right to the east, went up in that direction. I couldn’t see anybody in either direction, nor could I see anybody scaling a wall into the Presidio.

He was on the east side of the street, so he turned right on to the east, went up in that direction? What? Why didn’t he proceed straight north, checking out the entrance point – where anybody would have assumed a killer making a run for it in the direction of the park would have headed? I’m sorry, but that makes very little sense.

From what I gather the kids say Zodiac was on Cherry walking in the direction of the Presidio. How would they know his intention was to go into it?

Also, we don’t know when Zodiac became aware the police were notified. Did he hear sirens? Did he not know until he passed Fouke and Zelms? If Zodiac had parked his car near Maple or in that general area…it would make sense he was headed in that direction. And when he saw them, he got the heck out of dodge! (so-to-speak) It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he observed from afar and later had to come back for his car.

Fouke is the one here who didn’t come clean to LE about Zodiac allegedly walking up to a house on Jackson. And he admitted that on camera.

From what I gather the kids say Zodiac was on Cherry walking in the direction of the Presidio. How would they know his intention was to go into it?

Also, we don’t know when Zodiac became aware the police were notified. Did he hear sirens? Did he not know until he passed Fouke and Zelms? If Zodiac had parked his car near Maple or in that general area…it would make sense he was headed in that direction. And when he saw them, he got the heck out of dodge! (so-to-speak) It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if he observed from afar and later had to come back for his car.

Fouke is the one here who didn’t come clean to LE about Zodiac allegedly walking up to a house on Jackson. And he admitted that on camera.

Well, they wouldn’t have known his intention – but it seems that what they told AP gave him a notion that the killer was headed in that direction: he was going north, getting out of the neighborhood, so to speak – a natural thing for a man on the run to do. AP wasn’t chasing the Zodiac at the time, he was just going after some guy who had killed a cab driver – some guy who was trying to escape from the crime scene on foot. The park area would seem like the most obvious thing to go for – and that was what the kids indicated to AP as well: going north on Cherry, heading for the Presidio, away from the residential area.

But AP decides not to follow what would seem the obvious route (straight north on Cherry to the Presidio). He goes east on Jackson, remaining in the residential area. To me this seems like a strange decision if all he’s going by is the kids’ statement. If, on the other hand, he has already met Fouke at this point – and has been informed by Fouke about the Jackson St encounter – the decision makes perfect sense.

Maybe AP was scared. He seems to indicate as much when he said he proceeded north on Cherry "using every technique [he] knew so [he] wouldn’t get [his] head blown off." Cops are human, especially lone cops on foot pursuing a gun-toting killer who is only a few minutes ahead, who’s maybe scared also, maybe hiding out in a parked car of inside a neighborhood fence. (We all know how cornered rats react to being found out.) I spent nine years on active duty in the army, trained forever, and still felt a little–no, more than a little–scared the first time I heard bombs and bullets in my general vicinity. When AP got to the Cherry/Jackson corner, maybe he saw Fouke’s patrol car headlights and felt some sense of security, safety in numbers and all that. Or maybe he saw the dog walker and then decided to turn east and question that pedestrian.

None of us know how we’d react to being a patrolman at a hot murder scene with an unapprehended killer apparently in the very near vicinity. We can all look back and hindsight AP’s pursuit route and his decision-making until we’re blue in the fingertips. In fact, if we’ve learned anything from listening to all the cops in the four jurisdictions, we’ve learned that human error is as much to blame for Zodiac’s freedom as anything Zodiac himself was able to pull off. Cops who aren’t used to serial murder investigations have to learn on the fly, and that’s always a recipe for mistakes. The truth is, these cops weren’t very bright guys, and Zodiac got lucky. I wouldn’t hold it against AP that he’s done 40 years’ worth of ass-covering. He and Fouke were ground zero for blowing the arrest of the most notorious serial killer of that generation. We’d all love AP to be more forthcoming, but he’s human. Fouke, too. They both have a lot to answer for, but I think we’re getting all we can ever expect from either of them.