Armond also stated that when he arrived there the three children were heading over toward the cab and he herded them back into the alcove of their house saying he did so specifically because: "I didn’t know if the suspect was still there."
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
WOW! Hold on now am I really seeing what I think I am on youtube??
This clip, appearing at first to be an average family documenting a trip from San Diego to San Francisco, suddenly, at 10:15 into it, cuts to a shot where someone is filming Maple street entrance into the Presidio. Then it cuts to film showing Kjell Qvales properties just down the street, before it then cuts to a view from Kjells window overlooking Julius Kahn and then the video ends by showing Kjell stood with his arm around the girl featured in the home made clips and it’s Singe Qvale Shinn, with a message ‘Thanks for the hospitality Kjell.’
Whoever made this, why would they start by filming Maple, specifically, the Presidio entrance? Quickly followed by a shot showing the upstairs backroom view overlooking J.K?
See what others make of it, the background song changes at 10:15 and the it cuts to a shot of someone standing at Maple filming the entrance to Presidio, and the other things mentioned above. Here’s the link: http://youtu.be/WveNec1AtPs
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
In the clip, it jumps from The Saint Francis Hotel which is on Powell & Geary, which is one street over from Mason & Geary (where Paul is though to have picked Zodiac up from) straight to Maple Street, the destination given by Zodiac to Paul as the intended location. Are there clues being dropped here in this video or am I reading too much into it? Filming of Julius Kahn as seen from Kjells back upstairs window? Hmmm, I really would like to know what others think.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Welsh Stated….
"Zodiac appears to not know the name of the actual street where he shot Stine, referring to it only as ‘Over by Washington & Maple’ yes, but isn’t that exactly what you would do if you lived close by and knew the area well? You wouldn’t want to appear to give away that your local to that area by reeling off street names and places because if you do, then it becomes clear that you have an intimate knowledge of that area.
He knew that Maple has an entrance through to the Presidio, because that’s where he was heading to escape most people assume. Ok, lets go with that idea. First question I have is, how does he know it? I am not local and for months after I got interested in this case, I assumed that Spruce Street was his escape route to J.K playground because I did not know, because it isn’t marked on a map, that Maple (or Cherry for that matter) has a walkway though to West Pacific. So how would Z know? He would have had to have been there to know this, or was himself local. "
What’s that old addage? A dog doesn’t s..t where it eats….I think if you live close by, typically you’re not going to choose to kill someone right where you live. He would have to assume, if his goal is to kill Stine, and we know it was, and Z lives in PH he would have to assume someone is going to see him. Lots of people live there, odds are you’re going to see someone, and they’re going to see you. I too for many years thought Z’s omission of Cherry St. showed he couldn”t remember the name of the street. I really don’t think any longer along those lines. I think Z is simply directing attention to Stine’s log book, which would say
"Maple /Washington" .
Not sure how many people would assume today that Z’s plan was to head into the park, or that he ever did? We know Fouke assumed that, but I think that can be proven as a false assumption. That’s a question I would love to ask Fouke. Knowing what he knows and the decision he made to pursue Z by heading in the opposite direction from where he last saw Z. Does he feel today that he got to Pacific and Maple(the other side of Maple, where it ends at Pacific), before Z could have run into the park and gotten under cover from being seen by Fouke/Zelm’s? Or that if Z had a car waiting on Pacific to escape to, would Fouke have pursued any car he saw pulling out onto Pacific towards Presidio Ave? when we tested the timeline of how much time would eclipse from when Fouke last saw Z at 3712 Jackson, to when Fouke would be pulling up at Pacific/end of Maple it was 40 seconds total. Not much time.
"And if Zodiac did pick the area because it offered a quick and easy escape into the presidio if something should go wrong, then he’s a bit of an idiot really because something did go very wrong that night, the cops responded and arrived at the scene only seconds or a minute or two at most after he’s left and yet, he ignores the Cherry entrance that allows him quick and instant access to the place where he was intending to go anyway using Maple entrance? Now if he’s picked that location for it’s availability to escape into the Presidio, I cannot believe that he would only have checked it out and known that Maple had an entrance to the Presidio but failed to notice that Cherry did also. Even if he wasn’t intending to ever go to Cherry, he surely would want to know the area well enough to give him alternate escapes should something go wrong? And then finally, ‘The Park.’
As we know, the police responded so quick that night that Zodiac didn’t even get one block away and police were there to see him turn toward a house. The response was rapid, and seconds after Don passes him and finds out the suspect is white, he states that he proceeded directly to the Presidio and Julius Kahn area saying "Our reasoning, well, my reasoning on that was because turning down Maple street leads through the presidio wall and directly into Julius Kahn Playground." So they got there, what, a minute or two at the most after passing him on Jackson Street? The area is quickly surrounded and searched tree by tree and bush by bush and, as Chief Lee says "Zodiac is a liar, he wasn’t anywhere in the vicinity of that park when we searched it." Yet he was somewhere close by because he accurately descries the search effort. So where is he situated so that he can clearly see them, but they cannot see him?
In Z’s first letter written the day after the attack he refers to things that he can hear coming from the park. He never refers to anything that he could see. To me that would be consistent to someone hiding out on Jackson. Either he had a place to go to on Jackson, or he hid around a home on Jackson. He can hear the motorcicles and cop cars on the move from the park. He never mentions the searchlight they put out in the park, or the dog search. But rather just refers to sounds he could hear. but that does tell us he was in the area for hours after the attack[,/b]
If Zodiac had a car, he could have easily driven to a spot such as Telegraph Hill perhaps and been able to generally observe the commotion and/or heard sirens from there.
Sandy Betts or someone very familiar with San Francisco would know better just where the closest high point of observation would be. There was a murder on Mt. Tamalpais which isn’t too far away. Would that be a good vantage point?
My earlier thought was that he could have headed to a bar or restaurant that he knew would be open and just hang out and perhaps establish an alibi if anything came up in the future as to his whereabouts that evening. He could say he’d been at the theatre and then decided to stop in someplace for a nightcap.
Of course he couldn’t do this if he’d been covered in blood but I thought the officer said the man he thought was Z had no blood on his pants. There are many hotels in San Francisco that have lounges on the top floor so he could have gone somewhere like that to observe.
Z could also have had a change of clothes with him in his car or some water and a first aid kit if he’d anticipated having to clean himself up.
Welsh Stated….
"WOW! Hold on now am I really seeing what I think I am on youtube??
This clip, appearing at first to be an average family documenting a trip from San Diego to San Francisco, suddenly, at 10:15 into it, cuts to a shot where someone is filming Maple street entrance into the Presidio. Then it cuts to film showing Kjell Qvales properties just down the street, before it then cuts to a view from Kjells window overlooking Julius Kahn and then the video ends by showing Kjell stood with his arm around the girl featured in the home made clips and it’s Singe Qvale Shinn, with a message ‘Thanks for the hospitality Kjell.’
Whoever made this, why would they start by filming Maple, specifically, the Presidio entrance? Quickly followed by a shot showing the upstairs backroom view overlooking J.K?
See what others make of it, the background song changes at 10:15 and the it cuts to a shot of someone standing at Maple filming the entrance to Presidio, and the other things mentioned above. Here’s the link: http://youtu.be/WveNec1AtPs "
Wow is right what a wild ride this took me on….Ok, Signe Qvale Shinn is KQ’s grandaughter….She married a guy named George Shinn, and he’s the one who put the video together of their trip to SF. When I was first viewing the clips I thought ok whoever did this is a Z Sleuth….At the end of the video they thank KQ, and Mrs. Jack (Elaine) LaLaine, the exercise guru for their hospitality. I would love to vacation with these folks….Lots of $$$$…..From what i could tell Signe Qvale Shinn is a teacher at Crescenta Valley High School, she’s a very good singer. Geo. Shinn is a graduate of Coronado HS ’75, he is from San Diego, lives in Coronado. He’s a retired Aerospace Engr., and currentlty builds Spec Homes. he built the home they live in. He was an Engr’ing. student at SDSU. and here’s a little Zynchroncity for you. When I looked on Geo’s. FB page he posted a picture of their wedding, now I don’t know if they were married on this date, or this was the date he posted the pic, either way, I know they were married in 2011, so it would have been after KQ’s passing, but the date on the post……Dec. 20, 2011…..That would be the 43rd anniversary of the LHR murders….Research always seems to lead to weird things…..Thanks for posting that Welsh. It was a trip just looking through Geo’s. videos, he has a bunch out there, how the rich vacation……
Welsh Stated….
"WOW! Hold on now am I really seeing what I think I am on youtube??
This clip, appearing at first to be an average family documenting a trip from San Diego to San Francisco, suddenly, at 10:15 into it, cuts to a shot where someone is filming Maple street entrance into the Presidio. Then it cuts to film showing Kjell Qvales properties just down the street, before it then cuts to a view from Kjells window overlooking Julius Kahn and then the video ends by showing Kjell stood with his arm around the girl featured in the home made clips and it’s Singe Qvale Shinn, with a message ‘Thanks for the hospitality Kjell.’
Whoever made this, why would they start by filming Maple, specifically, the Presidio entrance? Quickly followed by a shot showing the upstairs backroom view overlooking J.K?
See what others make of it, the background song changes at 10:15 and the it cuts to a shot of someone standing at Maple filming the entrance to Presidio, and the other things mentioned above. Here’s the link: http://youtu.be/WveNec1AtPs "
Wow is right what a wild ride this took me on….Ok, Signe Qvale Shinn is KQ’s grandaughter….She married a guy named George Shinn, and he’s the one who put the video together of their trip to SF. When I was first viewing the clips I thought ok whoever did this is a Z Sleuth….At the end of the video they thank KQ, and Mrs. Jack (Elaine) LaLaine, the exercise guru for their hospitality. I would love to vacation with these folks….Lots of $$$$…..From what i could tell Signe Qvale Shinn is a teacher at Crescenta Valley High School, she’s a very good singer. Geo. Shinn is a graduate of Coronado HS ’75, he is from San Diego, lives in Coronado. He’s a retired Aerospace Engr., and currentlty builds Spec Homes. he built the home they live in. He was an Engr’ing. student at SDSU. and here’s a little Zynchroncity for you. When I looked on Geo’s. FB page he posted a picture of their wedding, now I don’t know if they were married on this date, or this was the date he posted the pic, either way, I know they were married in 2011, so it would have been after KQ’s passing, but the date on the post……Dec. 20, 2011…..That would be the 43rd anniversary of the LHR murders….Research always seems to lead to weird things…..Thanks for posting that Welsh. It was a trip just looking through Geo’s. videos, he has a bunch out there, how the rich vacation……
Well I just found it odd that when they started showing shots of Pacific Heights that the person filming started with Maple St presidio entrance. Then you have the quick POV from the upstairs back room overlooking J.K etc. But as I freely admitted, it may simply be me just reading too much into it and it doesn’t mean anything.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Previously, I questioned the relevance, or the meaning behind, one comment made by Z in the November 9 letter. The comment is made by the writer as he signs off by saying:
"Have fun!! By the way it could be rather messy if you try to bluff me."
The Comment/Threat seems odd to me given the writer does not specify what or who it’s directed at. Who does he think may try and bluff him and how could they do it when his identity is unknown? He is directing it at someone because he states "It could get messy if you try to bluff me." Why would the writer have cause to believe that anyone may try and bluff him? How could they achieve this?
Hypothetically, if Qvale were Zodiac, could this comment be interpreted as him saying "By the way, a cop knows who I am because he spoke to me that night on the street in a driveway. If your trying to bluff me by making out you don’t know my identity before arresting me then it is going to get messy cause i’ll expose the fact they knew who I was on the night it happened and let me walk away."
Now I am not for one second saying the above scenario is the actual answer to what Z meant by that threat, far from it. I only post it as one possibility out of countless other possibilities.
And finally, I want to address this idea that many subscribe to that says that based on what Zodiac says in describing the Presidio search effort, he doesn’t necessarily have to have seen the things he describes, he could have been able to state what he states in the letter simply by hearing it. I don’t really want to argue this point too much because it’s not that relevant IMO because whether Zodiac’s recollection of the search are based on his audible or visual perception, he still has to be close by either way.
I agree that the following comments made by him could have been made by him based on his only hearing what’s going on….
1. "you were useing firetrucks to mask the sound of your cruzeing prowl cars"
2. "The dogs never came within 2 blocks of me + they were to the west."
Obviously, he could hear the fire trucks siren and not need to see it, aswel as hear the dogs barking and work out which direction they were from him and what approx. distance. But, could he really be able to make this comment by only using his ears….
"there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going fromsouth to north west"
How could he know that there were two sets of parked vehicles and what rough distance was between each? And if he cannot see these two sets of parked vehicles then how does he know that the motorbikes went by about 150 ft away from them? (That’s assuming he means that the bikes were 150 ft away from the two sets of parking and not 150 ft away from himself.)
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Oh and this one is for Mike….
You recently brought up the possibility that Qvale’s details could fit the redacted areas of the FBI document which also refers to the eight year old naming someone as possibly being the shooter in Pacific Heights and therefore, is also Zodiac, so I thought I’d test it out using the document the FBI sent me back in the last FOIA request I made (The doc as it appears online in the FBI vault is quite poor quality but the one they sent me is perfect so i used that one)
What you think??
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Welsh Stated…..
"Previously, I questioned the relevance, or the meaning behind, one comment made by Z in the November 9 letter. The comment is made by the writer as he signs off by saying:
"Have fun!! By the way it could be rather messy if you try to bluff me."
The Comment/Threat seems odd to me given the writer does not specify what or who it’s directed at. Who does he think may try and bluff him and how could they do it when his identity is unknown. He is directing it at someone because he states "It could get messy if you try to bluff me." Why would the writer have cause to believe that anyone may try and bluff him? How could they achieve this?
Hypothetically, if Qvale were Zodiac, could this comment be interpreted as him saying "By the way, a cop knows who I am because he spoke to me that night on the street in a driveway. If your trying to bluff me by making out you don’t know my identity before arresting me then it is going to get messy cause i’ll expose the fact they knew who I was on the night it happened and let me walk away."
Now I am not for one second saying the about scenario is the actual answer to what Z meant by that threat, far from it. I only post it as one possibility out of countless other possibilities.
And finally, I want to address this idea that many subscribe to that says that based on what Zodiac says in describing the Presidio search effort, he doesn’t necessarily have to have seen the things he describes, he could have been able to state what he states in the letter simply by hearing it. I don’t really want to argue this point too much because it’s not that relevant IMO because whether Zodiac’s recollection of the search are based on his audible or visual perception, he still has to be close by either way.
I agree that the following comments made by him could have been made by him based on his only hearing what’s going on….
1. "you were useing firetrucks to mask the sound of your cruzeing prowl cars"
2. "The dogs never came within 2 blocks of me + they were to the west."
Obviously, he could hear the fire trucks siren and not need to see it, aswel as hear the dogs barking and work out which direction they were from him and what approx. distance. But, could he really be able to make this comment by only using his ears….
"there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going fromsouth to north west"
How could he know that there were two sets of parked vehicles and what rough distance was between each? And if he cannot see these two sets of parked vehicles then how does he know that the motorbikes went by about 150 ft away from them? (That’s assuming he means that the bikes were 150 ft away from the two sets of parking and not 150 ft away from himself.)"
Welsh, I was referring to the letter Z wrote on Oct. 12, 1969…..Not the one he wrote in Nov. 1969…..By Nov. ’69, Z has read and heard in the news that there were dogs, fire trucks, and of course the dogs, some of which came from the Presidio Base would be to the west….7 dogs they say…..I say Z is full of it…..The dogs, as long as he had a heartbeat and was breathing they would find him. Unless the cops just gave up…..
Welsh Stated…..
"there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going fromsouth to north west"
How could he know that there were two sets of parked vehicles and what rough distance was between each? And if he cannot see these two sets of parked vehicles then how does he know that the motorbikes went by about 150 ft away from them? (That’s assuming he means that the bikes were 150 ft away from the two sets of parking and not 150 ft away from himself.)"
That was one of those Z writing fopaws…..He isn’t saying parking, he’s saying barking. His comment is in reference to the dogs, not the cars. He doesn’t state "there were 2 sets of parked vehicles", but rather telling the cops they could have caught him if they had simply parked their cars and stayed in them and waited for Z to come out of hiding.
Bayarea60’s, you commented:
"7 dogs they say…..I say Z is full of it…..The dogs, as long as he had a heartbeat and was breathing they would find him. Unless the cops just gave up….."
Totally agree. I’ve said numerous times that I totally agree with SFPD Chief of Inspectors Marin Lee. He seemed to have had enough of Zodiac’s braggart atttude and his bashing of police and Lee gives Zodiac some of his own medicine by using the Chronicle to throw a few of his own accusations and insults back at Zodiac. Zodiac starts the war of words by declaring:
"The S.F. Police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road races with their motorcicles seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover."
Chief Lee then responds to this by using Zodiac’s favourite platform, The Chronicle, and on October 18, 1969 they publish Lee’s comments….
"The killer of five who calls himself "Zodiac" is a clumsy criminal, a liar and possibly a latent homosexual.
That’s the opinion of homicide detectives assigned to bring in the boastful mass murderer.
"He has made some mistakes," Chief of Inspectors Marvin (Chronicle got his name wrong, its actually Martin, not Marvin) Lee said of Zodiac. Mistakes such as:
— Possibly leaving his fingerprints in the Yellow Cab in which he shot taxi driver Paul Stine last Saturday night.
— Allowing himself to be seen by three witnesses as he fled from the Presidio Heights murder scene.
— Leaving alive two of his intended victims in the deranged attacks he made on couples in the North Bay region — two young men who may one day pick him out of a lineup.
These mistakes, as well as others police won’t elaborate on, show Zodiac not to be the master criminal he apparently considers himself.
And, says Lee, he is a liar.
"His boast of being in the area we were searching while we were searching it is a lie," Lee said. "We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of patrolmen searching the area tree by tree and bush by bush. The dogs are the best in the country.
"A mouse couldn’t have escaped our attention."
In a letter to The Chronicle, Zodiac chided police for not finding him during their search of Julius Kahn Park and a nearby wooded portion of the Presidio.
"The S.F. police could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of holding road race with their motorcycles, seeing who could make the most noise," he wrote. "The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover."
Lee said the fact that Zodiac failed to mention the dogs and floodlights proves "he wasn’t anywhere in the vicinity."
Boasts made by Zodiac in connection with the three other cases in Napa and Solano counties have also turned out to be lies, investigators say.
But clumsy or a liar, Zodiac is still considered the most dangerous killer that Bay Area authorities can recall.
The article then concludes with:
It is the knife attack that leads investigators to consider that Zodiac may be a latent homosexual. His cryptic writings and hand- lettered boasts don’t indicate this — but the way in which he wielded the knife does hint of it.
The knife fell again and again and formed the mysterious symbol — like the crosshairs of a gun sight — that has come to be Zodiac’s hallmark.
Psychiatrists and criminologists have told investigators that such a modus operandi could mean Zodiac is unsure of his manhood."
Zodiac, for the first time, is taking abuse and insults rather than giving them and his ego doesn’t seem to be able to stand it and acts like the immature child who’s just been told they cant have another lollypop and throws his toys out of his pram in a sulk by declaring:
" I have grown rather angry with the police for their telling lies about me. I shall no longer announce to anyone when I commit my murders."
This sounds like something I’d expect to see come from a 5 year old child in a sulk. A kind of "Your nasty and horrible, I am not talking to you anymore so go away." Then the child would ignore the authority figure adult in a sulk feeling as though they have been unfairly treated.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Anyway, going back to the topic of the thread, that being Kjell ‘I am out walking the dog the I don’t even have’ Qvale. Described by Officer Pelissetti as ‘A man walking his dog.’ I believe that Armond did admit in a phone conversation (accidentally recorded) what he really observed that night and so the only accurate and truthful thing in his description of "A man walking his dog" is "Man." He was a man, and that’s all that is accurate about that comment. Man – yes. Walking – No. Dog – No.
Man actually stationary, man stationary in driveway of house. Man not own house. Man ‘just standing there.’ Man have no k-9 companion. Man very suspicious.
Oh and earlier in the thread Bayarea60s you hinted, or implied by your wording, that Kjell was simply your average car salesman. Just to make a point, here’s what one of his obituaries says:
"At his (Kjell’s) peak, around 1970, he operated 100 dealerships. He estimated that as a wholesale distributor and retail dealer, he sold a million cars representing 36 makes."
And that’s just his auto businesses, he had many other investments in many other companies.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Capricorn, you commented: "If Zodiac had a car, he could have easily driven to a spot such as Telegraph Hill perhaps and been able to generally observe the commotion and/or heard sirens from there."
Glad you brought this point up because I meant to do so myself a few days ago after thinking about how the events of that night unfolded.
So, just for the purpose of this one post, let us assume that Zodiac has a vehicle parked up waiting somewhere fairly close by, somewhere either in the vicinity of Jackson and Maple, or as some have otherwise suggested, somewhere on West Pacific Avenue.
First, I personally think there is little doubt that the white male that Don Fouke encountered was the Zodiac. My reasons for doing so are based on Fouke’s description of the suspects clothing being identical to the description given by Bryan Hartnell of his attacker, who we know was certainly ‘Zodiac’, at Lake Berryessa just two short weeks before.
So, we know that in Pacific Heights, Zodiac gets as far as 3712 on Jackson Street before being forced to take evasive action and turn onto that residence pathway to avoid Don and Eric who are approaching. As Don passes by the Zodiac and realises he’s white, he then, in his own words, decides to "Step on the gas." After passing the WMA, He would arrive on Cherry 10 to 20 seconds, at most, later where he stops to talk with Armond Pelissetti. At this point, Armond enlightens Don on the description update, and Don immediately realises that the guy he just passed 45, maybe 60 seconds ago, is the suspect. Armond then continues to proceed onto Jackson Street, with Don stating that upon realising the guy was the suspect, said "We turned around to get to the presidio and our reasoning, well, my reasoning on that was because turning down Maple would lead directly through the Presidio wall and into Julius Kahn Playground which had a lot of foliage."
So, given that within only seconds of passing Zodiac as he shuffles up the steps onto the drive, you have Armond coming down Jackson, and Don and Eric turning around to go to W. Pacific Avenue, when does Zodiac have chance or time to escape? Here’s a view of the routes to give a visual perspective.
After their brief encounter on Cherry, Don Fouke turns around and is signified by the blue arrows, Armond’s route by the red. Yellow Star: Location of Zodiac just a minute or so before both Fouke & Pelissetti set off on the above route’s.
So, what’s the point of all this? Well, the point is, or question is rather, if Zodiac has a vehicle waiting, whether it be on Jackson Street or West Pacific, how does he manage to get away considering Don is driving down West Pacific literally within a minute or two of passing Z at the Maple intersection so would clearly see any vehicles as they attempt to pull away and, the same can be said for Zodiac having a car on Jackson because Armond is on this street and would again see any vehicle as it pulls away. Once Fouke gets to the Presidio the area is very quickly surrounded and cordoned off. Zodiac simply doesn’t have the time to leave 3712, get to the location of a vehicle, get in and pull away without Don or Armond being on that same road to see it.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Kjell’s brother Bjorn Fredrik is quite an interesting POI also, born in 1924 (as the ‘My Name Is’ cipher seems to imply) , with connections to Riverside, CA. Kjell also had a place down in Lake Tahoe….
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
