@Bayarea60s

Good points. Like yourself I am not familiar with the routines back then. It would be very helpful to know something about how they handled dispatches of this kind. I’m inclined to believe they would send out an APB about a taxi mugging like this, urging any car in the vicinity to respond to the dispatch. Both Pellisetti and Fouke were in the vicinity – we know that for a fact. The question is this: Did Fouke receive – but not respond to – the first dispatch? This is possible, I guess: Dispatch goes out about "negro male" and a taxi mugging. Pelissetti responds, saying "I’ll take it". Was Fouke able to hear this? We know that he couldn’t communicate directly with other cars over the radio, but could he hear their responses? If so, he might have registered that another car was on it – and left it at that for the time being. A second dispatch then followed at some point and then he did respond to it – and headed to Washington/Cherry.

If Fouke could NOT hear other cars responding to dispatches, however, I find it odd that he didn’t respond to the initial dispatch – as he was clearly in the general area.

And if he did go to Wash./Cherry in response to a SECOND dispatch we’re faced with the apparent fact that this second dispatch contained the same info as the first one.

It’s puzzling alright. I would love some more detailed info about how the whole dispatch thing worked back then.

@ Welsh Chappie

I’m with you on the PH connection angle. Or, rather, that is an angle I’ve played around with a lot myself – quite independently of anything pertaining to KQ. You make a very good point about the Cherry St entrance to the park. It seems the obvious choice. And the kids apparently told Pelissetti Zodiac moved up Cherry, heading for the Park. Why did Pelissetti turn east on Jackson St at all? Wouldn’t the natural assumption be that the suspect had fled into the park?

Now, just thinking out loud here, but what if both Fouke and Pelissetti responded to the same dispatch: Pelissetti was very close to the murder scene, Fouke a bit further away. P arrives shortly after having received the dispatch (very shortly after, which is in keeping with the kids telling him that Z had just fled the scene when he talked to them). He then spends – let’s say – a little over a minute ushering the kids back inside, exchanging brief words with them (he says he talked to them – that doesn’t have to imply any lengthy conversation: he asks them what the guy looked like, they say it was a white guy w/glasses or whatever they said), then he moves quickly over to the cab to conclude Stine has been shot – and then Fouke appears. Pelissetti explains quickly that the dispatch was wrong, Fouke tells him that he has just encountered a white guy on Jackson St, then speeds off to search the park area (where he assumes the suspect has fled to). Pelissetti then calls it in.

Another possibility is that Pelissetti just managed to call it in before Fouke appeared – but that the new and updated dispatch was yet to be sent out when Fouke came down Cherry St. He talks to P, briefly, gets the info, tells P about his encounter (briefly – he didn’t have to say much beyond "damn, I just passed the guy") and then the new dispatch is received more or less at the same time or very shortly after (when Fouke has already learned the true facts directly from P). This latter possibility is more in keeping with P moving up a stretch on Cherry, on foot, where he meets Fouke (and Fouke’s statement seems to indicate that he turned south on Cherry and then ran into P at some point; he doesn’t say that he went all the way to the crime scene and met up with P there).

Alright. Whether it’s the first or the second scenario, what we’re looking at is this sequence:

1. P arrives.
2. Fouke arrives (responding to the same dispatch).
3. Fouke tells P about encounter at 3712 Jackson.
4. Fouke goes off to search park and P goes off on foot to search the block, going east on Jackson towards 3712 (where he knows Fouke has encountered possible suspect).
5. P meets dog walker, possibly standing in his own driveway (3636 Jackson).

If this sequence is correct it IS possible for Z to make it from the crime scene to 3712 Jackson (where he meets Fouke) and then to proceed to 3636 Jackson, ditch bloody clothes (we don’t actually know how bloody his clothes would have been, by the way) and pick up dog, and then proceed outside to appear as "dog walker".

I stress yet again that I’m just thinking out loud here – and that I’m not saying KQ must the Zodiac. But the scenario above fits the timeline if both Fouke and Pelissetti responded to the same dispatch. The scenario presupposes, then, that Pelissetti’s account of the events is inaccurate. His stated sequence is wrong. He didn’t do much at all beyond dealing with the kids, checking out Stine and – possibly – calling it in before Fouke arrived. It was only after his meeting with Fouke that he went up Cherry, turned east on Jackson and eventually met the dog walker.

I see your point but having had dogs, wonder just why on earth Z (whoever) would go back outside with their dog if they’d manage to escape to the safety of their home unless the dog really needed to go but even then, I’d just let the dog have an accident inside rather than risk being caught were I Z! You’d think Z would have needed to use the facilities himself after doing his thing so that would have taken even more time!

Also, I would think that even the dog walker would not have ventured out had they heard any gunshots or sirens as they would not want to upset their dog or risk getting involved and possibly injured themselves. It is too bad this dog walker can’t be located as his recollection of the events would be most interesting.

You’d think those kids who saw Z would possibly have known all the dogs in the neighborhood or recognize people who regularly walked by with them. I wonder if the dog or other dogs in the neighborhood who were inside their homes with their owners were barking with all the commotion?

I … wonder just why on earth Z (whoever) would go back outside with their dog if they’d manage to escape to the safety of their home …"

This is what I keep coming back to in my own mind when I try to reconcile the dog walker’s behavior with the actions of a man who just murdered someone two blocks up the street and almost got caught in the getaway.

The Qvale theory makes sense in a lot of ways, as Mr. Rodelli has laid it out over the years. The murderer told Stine to go to Washingtom and Maple, but they ended up at Cherry. Maybe he said Maple because that was the street that would get Qvale home fastest. But they pull up, and there is someone out walking, or smoking in their front yard, or there are too many living room lights on. The neighborhood isn’t quite asleep yet. So, Mr. X tells Stine to move up another block ("Can you go another block? So sorry! I meant Cherry. My apologies. I don’t live here, just visiting.") Pull the trigger. Get down Cherry, turn onto Jackson, (Gotta get home! Gotta get home!), but get spotted by Fouke in a cruising patrol car. Luckily, not stopped by the officers, and (Whew!) make it home. Then……. leash a dog and decide THAT’S the time to head back outside??? It makes no sense, unless the killer is just that much of a narcissist and a thrill-seeker that he decides "You know what? Screw them, that’s what! Let’s see if we can have a little fun here…." Given that (as far as we know) the murders stopped after Stine, it seems reasonable to guess Zodiac got the bejeezus scared out of him by the close calls in PH and hung up his holster. (Not so sure that’s the only reason he stopped killing after Oct. ’69, but that’s another story/theory/whatever….) ANd if he actually was pissy-pants scared, then he wouldn’t put himself on display and test his acting skills with a very risky stroll through the widening dragnet.

Of course…. we risk presuming too much when we try to attack this logically. It’s illogical from the get-go, murdering innocent, unsuspecting people. It’s a bit of a fool’s game to come at this from a logical behavior point of view. But the guy was smart enough not to get caught. He was not an idiot. There is enough there in his letters and his planning to show he might have been a little nutty and prone to a few risks, but he wasn’t wearing a hat that said, "Arrest me, already! I did it!"

"All he said was life is bullshit, and it is, so what are you screaming about?"

 

Norse Stated……

"Now, just thinking out loud here, but what if both Fouke and Pelissetti responded to the same dispatch: Pelissetti was very close to the murder scene, Fouke a bit further away. P arrives shortly after having received the dispatch (very shortly after, which is in keeping with the kids telling him that Z had just fled the scene when he talked to them). He then spends – let’s say – a little over a minute ushering the kids back inside, exchanging brief words with them (he says he talked to them – that doesn’t have to imply any lengthy conversation: he asks them what the guy looked like, they say it was a white guy w/glasses or whatever they said), then he moves quickly over to the cab to conclude Stine has been shot – and then Fouke appears. Pelissetti explains quickly that the dispatch was wrong, Fouke tells him that he has just encountered a white guy on Jackson St, then speeds off to search the park area (where he assumes the suspect has fled to). Pelissetti then calls it in."

You have about 27 secs of time that Pellessetti would have between the time the dispatch goes out, Pellessetti gets to the scene, does all the movements that he does and then about 33 secs. for him to get to Cherry/Jackson and meet up with Fouke.

Norse Stated….

"Another possibility is that Pelissetti just managed to call it in before Fouke appeared – but that the new and updated dispatch was yet to be sent out when Fouke came down Cherry St. He talks to P, briefly, gets the info, tells P about his encounter (briefly – he didn’t have to say much beyond "damn, I just passed the guy") and then the new dispatch is received more or less at the same time or very shortly after (when Fouke has already learned the true facts directly from P). This latter possibility is more in keeping with P moving up a stretch on Cherry, on foot, where he meets Fouke (and Fouke’s statement seems to indicate that he turned south on Cherry and then ran into P at some point; he doesn’t say that he went all the way to the crime scene and met up with P there)."

Fouke doesn’t go up Cherry St., Pellessetti goes north on Cherry and meets Fouke at Cherry/Jackson. So you have at least 33 secs. for Pellessetti to get to Cherry/Jackson, time to leave his squad car, time for conversation with Fouke (10-15 secs. maybe), then time for Fouke to leave Pellessetti head west on Jackson and then Fouke hears updated dispatch. Better part of a minute for dispatch to react to updated news from Pellessetti.

Norse Stated….

"Alright. Whether it’s the first or the second scenario, what we’re looking at is this sequence:

1. P arrives.
2. Fouke arrives (responding to the same dispatch).
3. Fouke tells P about encounter at 3712 Jackson.
4. Fouke goes off to search park and P goes off on foot to search the block, going east on Jackson towards 3712 (where he knows Fouke has encountered possible suspect).
5. P meets dog walker, possibly standing in his own driveway (3636 Jackson).

If this sequence is correct it IS possible for Z to make it from the crime scene to 3712 Jackson (where he meets Fouke) and then to proceed to 3636 Jackson, ditch bloody clothes (we don’t actually know how bloody his clothes would have been, by the way) and pick up dog, and then proceed outside to appear as "dog walker".

I stress yet again that I’m just thinking out loud here – and that I’m not saying KQ must the Zodiac. But the scenario above fits the timeline if both Fouke and Pelissetti responded to the same dispatch. The scenario presupposes, then, that Pelissetti’s account of the events is inaccurate. His stated sequence is wrong. He didn’t do much at all beyond dealing with the kids, checking out Stine and – possibly – calling it in before Fouke arrived. It was only after his meeting with Fouke that he went up Cherry, turned east on Jackson and eventually met the dog walker."

Number 1. P arrives, does all his known activity up on Washington, then heads north on Cherry to Jackson, where he encounters Fouke.

Number 5; Not familiar where 3636 Jackson is, in relation to 3712 Jackson. But Pellessetti doesn’t see dog walker on Jackson. Pellessetti says he sees dog walker coming down Maple from the south (Washington St.), and he encounters dog walker at Maple/Jackson. So this dog walker would encounter Fouke, leave 3712 Jackson go to 3636 Jackson, change his clothes, pick up his dog, go back out on Jackson, back to Maple heads south towards Washington, turns around, heads north back down Maple, and then runs into Pellessetti (all in about 1 min and 15 secs.)..It would take Z 15 secs. just to get from 3712 Jackson to the corner of Jackson/Maple. So he would have 1 minute to do all this other activity and meet up with Pellessetti as the dog walker is heading north on maple towards Jackson?

And why would Z getting into his house after killing Stine, just missed being caught on Jackson, go back out onto the street? Cause he’s brazen? No….Z is a coward, he is brazen only in his news media talk, after the fact, but he’s a coward in action. And Pellessetti meets with and speaks with the dog walker, and the dog walker is a dead ringer to the composite? And Pellessetti of course sees the composite, but then what, he keeps it a secret forever. So Pellessetti knows who Z is, he just doesn’t want to tell the detectives. or anyone else?

To Wolf and Capricorn…..

Not just illogical, but no time to do all the dog walker would have to do, in the allowed time from when Fouke sees Z, until Pellessetti is at Jackson Maple and encounters dog walker. Pellessetti states he sees a much older and skinnier man (from the description the kids gave him minutes earlier), coming down Maple from the direction of Washington towards Jackson. I’ve always thought the dog walker could have been the reason Z changed the location from Maple/Washington to Cherry Washington. If the old guy is out walking his dog along Maple and is coming from the direction of Washington St. when Pellessetti encounters him, it could be dog walker was on his way up Maple heading south and crossing Washington when Z saw him and had to change his chosen location of Maple/Washington.

I just looked up 3636 Jackson, in relation to distance to 3712 Jackson. It’s approximately 385′. It would take z/dog walker at least 64 seconds to get home, then he would have to change his clothes, pick up dog and head back up to Jackson/Maple about 300′, about 50 seconds, then walk up Maple heading south, some distance, turn around, and come back down Maple towards Jackson where Pellessetti sees him. It would take Pellessetti about 1 minute to walk from Cherry/Jackson after speaking with Fouke, to Maple/Jackson. But it would be far less time then that for Pellessetti to see a guy walking his dog heading back up Jackson towards Maple, Pellessetti is going to see him before he can get to Maple. In fact Pellessetti would be at Maple, before the dog walker. Pellessetti would be at Maple/Jackson about 82 seconds, after Fouke left Z at 3712 Jackson. That leaves dog walker 18 seconds to change his clothes, get dog, and walk back to Maple/Jackson, then up Maple some distance, turn around and walk back down Maple to Jackson.

We’re still left with the question: Why turn east onto Jackson?

Once he reached the Cherry/Jackson intersection, the cover of darkness and the escape through the park was just a few yards away. Turning east onto Jackson meant he had a residence to hide out in nearby or a getaway vehicle not far from there. There’s just no other reason to head that way.

He told Stine "Washington and Maple" for a reason. That destination would have put him at least a block closer to something he had planned in advance. Cherry was an afterthought, a last-second dodge. I think the dog-walker was already out on the street before the murder. The neighborhood is the key. He had a desire to be close to something in that small radius of streets and houses; otherwise, seeing pedestrians (or whatever spooked him off Washington and Maple) would have scuttled the plan altogether. But it didn’t. His original destination was thwarted, but he still had the confidence to try and pull it off just a block further than he intended. Something in that immediate area gave him the confidence to shoot Stine and still get away clean.

Good points, Wolf.

Yes – I think we can all agree that turning east onto Jackson needs some explaining. If Z intended to vanish into the park or get to a vehicle parked on W Pacific somewhere (those seem to be the most popular theories) it really makes no sense to move east on Jackson, rather than just heading straight north.

If we assume that "dog walker" is NOT the Zodiac (but just plain old KQ, respectable businessman and dog owner out for a stroll) we can play around with the following scenario:

Z’s cab approaches Wash./Maple but he spots a man nearby, walking his dog. So he tells Stine to go one block further. He then has to proceed around half the block (meeting Fouke on Jackson) rather than going straight north on Maple (which was his original plan). But what was it he wanted to reach (as easily as possible) somewhere in the region of Maple/Jackson? His car? Or a house?

EDIT Just saw that Bayarea suggested the very same thing – sorry about that!

Anyway, about the timing, Bayarea: Yes, if Pelissetti did indeed meet the dog walker somewhere on Maple it would seem that KQ/Z would have been pressed for time. But Pelissetti’s account of precisely where he met the dog walker varies – as Mike Rodelli has pointed out in this thread. If Pelissetti did in fact spot the dog walker (and Pelissetti has identified him as KQ, as we know) standing in a driveway on Jackson St (KQ’s own driveway) this allows Z/KQ much more time.

Now, as for why Z/KQ would do such a thing in the first place – kill a cabbie, run home, get his dog and appear on the street as an innocent bystander – that’s anybody’s guess. Perhaps it was part of his plan. Perhaps he got a kick out of it. I have no idea. But if we assume that KQ was Z we must – I think – presuppose that playing games with the cops was part and parcel of what he was doing.

We’ll probably never know the answers until the Z is caught, if ever.

Re. Z’s getaway after the murder, I just happened to think that maybe he had a friend or acquaintance who lived in the neighborhood and he thought he’d just stop by to say "hi." Or, he may have been within walking distance of his favorite bar or nightspot.

I remember getting all around San Francisco in my younger days when I’d go there for a few days using the cable cars, buses and walking. I’ll check the map but don’t think the North Beach or Chinatown areas are all that far from Pacific Heights.

Since Z said he looked nothing like himself when he did his thing, I choose to believe that and think that could well have included the way he walked. He could easily have faked a limp or been wearing the wrong size shoes or had something stuffed in his shoes that would affect his gait.

Z was probably in pretty good shape and used to walking, regardless of his age and weight.

After checking maps on Google, see that Fisherman’s Wharf, Chinatown, North Beach, the Tenderloin, etc. are all withing walking distance of Pacific Heights.

I’m thinking that is where Z headed. He was smart enough not to go into the park as he knew it would be dark there and realized that is where the police would very likely search and he’d be cornered. He was probably very familiar with SF either because he lived there or spent time there.

He probably scouted out the area and had this all planned in advance.

If he headed to one of the tourist spots, he could have figured that he’d be there and have an alibi established by the time news of the murder had gotten out. Remember, this was all before the Internet!

Then, after he’d "come down" from the adrenilin that surely must have been rushing through his body, perhaps he checked into the Hotel California or similar establishment!

Forgot to mention in the above post that if he’d gone to a public place that would be open at that time of night such as a bar or restaurant, he could have planned to just stay there until closing time which would have been 2:00 a.m.

Couldn’t you just imagine him making sure to converse with the bartender or wait staff to make sure they’d remember him…..just in case?

He could have made a reservation at a motel, hotel, bus, airline or train to leave town asap or may have pre-planned sticking around for at least a few days to watch all the news he knew would surely be on tv and in the newspapers. He could easily then have returned to the scene of the crime and knew that nobody could possible question him as he’d be dressed completely different and not wearing his disguise.

Forgot to mention in the above post that if he’d gone to a public place that would be open at that time of night such as a bar or restaurant, he could have planned to just stay there until closing time which would have been 2:00 a.m.

Are you deliberately overlooking the fact that he’d probably be covered with blood..?

Norse Stated….

"Anyway, about the timing, Bayarea: Yes, if Pelissetti did indeed meet the dog walker somewhere on Maple it would seem that KQ/Z would have been pressed for time. But Pelissetti’s account of precisely where he met the dog walker varies – as Mike Rodelli has pointed out in this thread. If Pelissetti did in fact spot the dog walker (and Pelissetti has identified him as KQ, as we know) standing in a driveway on Jackson St (KQ’s own driveway) this allows Z/KQ much more time."

I’ve never heard of Pellessetti’s account of where he saw dog walker (coming down Maple from the direction of Washington) vary. We know Pellessetti never states he went any further than the southwest side of Maple St. at Jackson. I’m not sure what driveway on Jackson Pellessetti would have met KQ/Z on. I’m just not sure where that story develops from….We have 2 accounts from Pellessetti, the police report he turned in, in 1969 & the statements he made in the video.

Now, as for why Z/KQ would do such a thing in the first place – kill a cabbie, run home, get his dog and appear on the street as an innocent bystander – that’s anybody’s guess. Perhaps it was part of his plan. Perhaps he got a kick out of it. I have no idea. But if we assume that KQ was Z we must – I think – presuppose that playing games with the cops was part and parcel of what he was doing."