entropy, Subject: Planned or impulsive? Tue May 11, 2010 11:50 pm

I think most folks believe that Zodiac carefully planned out the murder of Paul Stine, perhaps not Stine specifically but that he planned to murder whatever cabbie he picked up that night en route to what most presume was an escape vehicle parked near Washington & Cherry Sts. I’ve always wondered why, if this was a planned murder, why Zodiac created such a risky and utterly complicated plan.

The Zodiac master plan goes something like this:

1. Zodiac parks his car a few blocks away from where he plans to direct a cabbie in order to murder him at a pre-planned location in Presidio Heights.

2. Zodiac takes some form of public transportation to the area near Mason & Geary.

3. Zodiac hails a cab at Mason & Geary and directs the driver (Stine) to his pre-planned location.

4. Zodiac walks from the crime scene to his vehicle and drives away to a destination unknown.

Here’s the problems I have with the theory:

– This plan offers multiple chances for eyewitnesses to observe Zodiac (dropping off his car, taking public transportation to Mason & Geary, hailing the cab at Mason & Geary, at the crime scene itself, walking to his car and getting into his getaway car). He was, afterall, observed rather closely at two of these destinations and nearly stopped by police walking away on Jackson St.

– He chose a very busy location at a very busy time to hail the cab, increasing the chances of being observed. I took the time to walk to Mason & Geary on a recent trip on Saturday evening and it is crawling with pedestrians. He also happened to choose a time (according to Graysmith) when the broadway play, HAIR, was letting out from a theater yards from the intersection he chose. Why did Zodiac choose to pick up his victim around 9 p.m. on a Saturday night in the heart of a busy theater district?

– Despite Zodiac’s claims of having left no fingerprints, he clearly DID leave fingerprints and felt the need to wipe down Stine’s cab to eliminate evidence. One would think that bringing gloves along would be a prerequisite for his plans. Zodiac’s claim of wearing airplane glue on his fingertips clearly doesn’t fit the evidence of multiple fingerprints on the cab or his behavior of wiping away evidence that shouldn’t have existed in the first place.

If the murder of Paul Stine was planned, it was clearly planned incredibly poorly and only a lucky break (Fouke & Zelms believing they were looking for a black subject) kept Zodiac from being caught that night. If Zodiac was intent on killing someone in Presidio Heights, why not park there and wait for the first pedestrian to walk by? Was there any need to target a cab driver specifically? Why the complicated plan?

I honestly think it is very possible that Zodiac never planned to kill that night but, for whatever reason, saw the opportunity once he was picked up. Perhaps he was pissed off after seeing HAIR? Who knows? I also don’t at all rule out the possibility that Zodiac escaped from the Stine scene completely on foot ala Mr. X’s proposed escape or even by public transportation. Being full of blood might have hindered an escape by public transportation but then again Fouke did not notice any blood on Z walking away from the crime scene.

Thoughts?

morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:03 am

Entropy, great questions. He certainly missed being caught by seconds that night. If it was planned, or spontaneous, it didnt go well in my opinion. Police got a sketch out of it, and in my opinion, its the reason Zodiac said he would no longer write to police, as he realized how close he was to getting caught.

I think its quite possible that Z killed another Cabbie, and did everything right this time after learning from his mistakes with Stine. See my post in the Stine section called:
"ANOTHER CABBIE MURDER"

Boilermaker, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:23 am

What i keep thinking about this also is what is the motive to shoot a cabbie at this location?

could there have been 2 working as a pair; one being the voyour (Mr. X) who lives in the area the other being the trigger man who escapes a pre planned route or hides in a house in the area? It would lend to Z knowing about the police searches….the other murders had a female involved where Stine is more a "in your face" cops/fear spreading murder.

something else crossed my mind about the clean get away; was there a sewer system in this area with manholes that someone may be able to crawl down if pre-planned?

Love this forum and freedom to think out loud…i cant tell you how many times I read all the great theories and feel like that is the one! gullable and late here….gooooooooood bye!

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 3:00 am

I think he planned it, he probably didn’t plan it to include the kids across the street to spy him and phone the cops so quickly. Twelve days before there was a similar scenario with the cabbie Paul Hom taken to that area and then asked to go further and driven into the Presidio. He may have been the same man or the Zodiac could have copycatted this crime with the conclusion to his attack being death.
Cabbies will take you anywhere, he could have driven out to the middle of nowhere with him but chose instead SF. But I’m sure there are more desolate areas of the city he could have went to. Why pick one of the most affluent? Along with cabbies probably a prostitute is one of the few that would also go with someone willingly so he was making it easy for himself to get victims.

I do think it was planned (the kids f***ed it up for him, hence his threatening letter two days later). The question is not so much why the cabbie as why Presidio Heights I think? It would be interesting actually if there were any attacks at this time on prostitutes by someone that fits his description.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 5:04 am

I am 100% sure I had a post here. :suspect:

morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 6:56 am

I am 100% sure I had a post here. :suspect:

I can tell you this, it was not removed.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 8:24 am

If he wasn’t intending to kill anybody that night, he wouldn’t have had a gun on his person.

The only possible ‘killing on impulse’ scenario I can entertain is that he was after some other target that night, but ended up shooting Paul on the fly.

bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:06 pm

Graysmith says he killed simply to get the shirt (or keys, wallet) to mail in and prove writer was killer. Could be a bit of truth in that, never grabbed anything form the previous victims.

And, despite a being a degree or so off, the PH location is about one radian from either BRS or LH, don’t remember, using Mt. Diablo as the center. Maybe it’s just coincidental.

Good topic.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:27 pm

Tahoe I think you had a post there, not 100% but quite sure.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:37 pm

Yah SP…it was about "Hair" and how bad it must have sucked. It was right after Entropy posted. No big deal…

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 2:10 pm

Hey Tahoe, re post it for us! I like all your comments an ideas!!*

bayarea60s, Subject: Z Plan Wed May 12, 2010 3:26 pm

Hard call on how much of this crime Z truly planned. We know for sure he had murder on his mind that evening, just don’t know if he cared who it was, where it was, or any details. I personally feel he was a little more into planning his crimes than just on a fly taking a cab ride. But I have nothing really to prove that feeling, just I’ve always felt he was a calculated murderer, to some degree. Did he know of victim’s somewhat beforehand? He could have and perhaps they weren’t as random as they appeared to be. Then again they could have been completely random. He could have gotten a certain feeling that set him off to murder. Maybe he took the ride with Stine, with no thought of killing him, and then the voices in his head started telling him to kill Stine.
If he had totally planned the Stine murder, he may have had a very good plan, but it went awry because police showed up so closely to the time of the crime. How often do cops show up within a couple minutes of a murder? I doubt very often. Even in the face of the police all over him, he was still able to get away. Luck, yeah to some degree he was very lucky. But his ability to consistently elude cops cannot be undermind.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 5:06 pm

Hey Tahoe, re post it for us! I like all your comments an ideas!!*

It was a silly comment ( :afro: ) and probably took away from the serious subject at hand. It’s all good…and I don’t think you deleted in Morf.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 6:38 pm

Let’s not forget that Zodiac stated that he was in disguise that night. So why would he care if he was seen? He was disguised.

But even if he wasn’t disguised, the area around Union Square is absolutely teeming with cabs, and individuals getting in and out of them. Especially on a weekend night. It is such a common occurance that nobody notices, or cares, or would even remember it the next day after reading about a cabbie murder.

Now, before anyone wants to argue what I’ve posted, please name me all of the witnesses from downtown who came forward the next day and had seen the Zodiac.

Oops, there weren’t any. Because nobody noticed.

/discussion.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 7:16 pm

I have always believed that LE was getting close to Zodiac because all three previous crimes were fairly near in the Vallejo/LB area. I believe that Zodiac killed in San Francisco to get the investigation away from Vallejo and make it a Bay Area murder spree. The letters after Stine stayed away from mentioning Vallejo and trying to widen the search for him, I believe He "may" have taken credit for the other murders to widen the search for him away from Vallejo.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 7:21 pm

"I have always believed that LE was getting close to Zodiac because all three previous crimes were fairly near in the Vallejo/LB area. I believe that Zodiac killed in San Francisco to get the investigation away from Vallejo and make it a Bay Area murder spree. The letters after Stine stayed away from mentioning Vallejo and trying to widen the search for him, I believe He "may" have taken credit for the other murders to widen the search for him away from Vallejo."

San Francisco is closer to Vallejo than Lake Berryessa is, so that makes no sense.

Also, Zodiac never referred to Lake Berryessa in any letter, either.

So, using your reasoning, Zodiac was trying to draw attention from Lake Berryessa, and not Vallejo.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 7:33 pm

Igloo anybody who knows the area would consider the Napa/LB area to be Vallejo’s backyard, a place you went up to have a picnic. If you asked Vallejo residents i believe 99% would believe LB was in their backyard while SF was a crowded highway and crowded bridge away. In 1969 you can just drive right from Vallejo into Napa and up the hill into the LB area, it was reasonably close. i bet zodiac proably went up their as a kid and teenager frequently. There is a ferry today that takes you from Vallejo to Fishermans Wharf in SF which is several blocks from the Presidio and i thought that that could have been an escape route for Zodiac but i was told that that ferry service wasnt there in 1969.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 8:17 pm

Igloo anybody who knows the area would consider the Napa/LB area to be Vallejo’s backyard, a place you went up to have a picnic. If you asked Vallejo residents i believe 99% would believe LB was in their backyard while SF was a crowded highway and crowded bridge away. In 1969 you can just drive right from Vallejo into Napa and up the hill into the LB area, it was reasonably close. i bet zodiac proably went up their as a kid and teenager frequently. There is a ferry today that takes you from Vallejo to Fishermans Wharf in SF which is several blocks from the Presidio and i thought that that could have been an escape route for Zodiac but i was told that that ferry service wasnt there in 1969.

Wow, lots of errors to deal with here.

Lake Berryessa didn’t even exist until the early 1960s, so the idea Zodiac visited there "as a kid" would mean he was barely a teenager when he started murdering people. And it’s not "up the hill" from anywhere. The drive to the lake is incredibly winding and mostly flat. What hill are you talking about? Does it have a name?

From Vallejo, just as many would take Highway 37 and the Golden Gate Bridge to San Francisco as would take I-80 and the Bay Bridge. You made it seem as if there is only one way to get there. Either way you take it is a shorter drive than going all the way to Lake Berryessa from Vallejo. And there was much less traffic back then.

The Ferry Building at Fisherman’s Wharf is where the Vallejo ferry arrives, and it is not "several blocks" from the Presidio. Rather, it is more than 3.5 miles away.

bayarea60s, Subject: Wood Wed May 12, 2010 8:19 pm

I have no argument with what you posted. I think it makes perfectly good sense.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 8:33 pm

Igloo dont get nasty im not your husband fight with him!!!

bayarea60s, Subject: Z Travels Wed May 12, 2010 8:34 pm

Salus…

Vallejo to LB is about 41 miles, 1 hr/7 mins. driving time….

Vallejo to SF is about 31 miles, 42 mins. driving time…..

In ’69, Vallejo to SF was about 1/2 hour drive….On a Saturday night say 8pm, no problem driving right into the city, 1/2 hour tops. You can’t speed up the Vallejo to LB drive very much. It’s a 2 lane road with continuous bends.

That of course is assuming Z was from Vallejo and needed to make the drive.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:12 pm

You try to get over the Bay Bridge in that time

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:21 pm

Igloo dont get nasty im not your husband fight with him!!!

Sorry if correcting your many mistakes is considered "nasty."

Perhaps you could try a little harder to get things right.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:23 pm

You try to get over the Bay Bridge in that time

I have never been stuck on the Bay Bridge. I have been stuck at the Maze, but not the Bay Bridge.

Nonetheless, you seem to have a great deal of trouble understanding there was MUCH less traffic four decades ago, therefore is was quicker getting from point A to point B compared to today.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:36 pm

Salus…

Vallejo to LB is about 41 miles, 1 hr/7 mins. driving time….

Vallejo to SF is about 31 miles, 42 mins. driving time…..

In ’69, Vallejo to SF was about 1/2 hour drive….On a Saturday night say 8pm, no problem driving right into the city, 1/2 hour tops. You can’t speed up the Vallejo to LB drive very much. It’s a 2 lane road with continuous bends.

That of course is assuming Z was from Vallejo and needed to make the drive.

Thanks Bay, you beat me to making a similar post, showing the miles and minutes of driving. And it’s true in the good
old days you could zip to SF in no time. Even now IF and the word is IF, you can get there semi fast IT there is no traffic.

bayarea60s, Subject: Salus Wed May 12, 2010 9:40 pm

Salus Asked:

"You try to get over the Bay Bridge in that time"….

Back in ’69? Many many times. No problem making that. Bridge wasn’t an issue. Again that is presuming Z needed to make that drive at all.

Boilermaker, Subject: Interesting frm Toschi intvw on Stine murder from TV site Thu May 13, 2010 12:27 am

Post subject:

My latest Q&A from a most generous Duffy Jennings and an equally generous Det.Toschi. I am very grateful for their help and I hope this helps everyone’s understanding of the case.

Sorry it took awhile as they don”t get together every day and I have to cycle back and make requests,etc.!

Did Det.Toschi believe Z was seated in front or in the rear seat of the cab?
Det.Toschi says Z entered from the ‘north side of Geary into the front passenger side’ of the cab and that he was "never" in the rear seat. From his work he has ‘always believed that Z was in the front seat the entire time.’

Comment.We do know that when the teens first saw Z and Stine they were in the front seat ‘struggling’ or ‘fighting.’ We know, of course, Z was cutting a portion of Stine’s shirt for future letter/crime verification.

Then they saw Z, after wiping down the inside front area of the cab,get out and start wiping the cab down and he then went around to the driver’s side doing the same thing.
We never find him wiping down the rear of the cab where he would have spent considerble time until they reached Washington/Maple/Cherry Sts.

No one saw Z in the rear seat,so until other evidence would prove otherwise it is safe as per Det.Toschi to place Z in the front seat the entire death trip.

Duffy says that in his account of the cab murder in "Great Crimes of San Francisco"he agreed with Det.Toschi by having Z entering the front passenger side and staying there the whole trip.

Did the Police Artist sit with Fouke and Zelms for the Z composite?

Det.Toschi said the artist did, "indeed talk with both officers for the sketch,and that he and Armstrong did file the inter-departmental memo you[HD] mention. Both officers were "extremely upset after reading the newspapers,"said Toschi."They felt they had very likely encountered our killer and they were very embarrassed about it."

Comment.The inter-departmental memo was filed after both Dets. received it from SFPD. This memo came from the interview of Officers Zelms and Fouke and then it was sent as the aforementioned memo to Dets.Toschi and Armstrong,and they, in turn, filed it. It was confidential.
It stated what the two Patrolmen had seen 10/11/69 ,etc.,and that both Officers were "shattered and filled with despair"as given by GS as per T. This initial interview was done 10/16/69 at 9AM,according to GS.

Det.confirms both Patrolmen actually sat with the SFPD Artist and helped produce their version of what the WMA looked like. Det.T is firm on this. He was closely connected to the case we were not.
The sitting session was not based just on Fouke’s recall,but Zelms added to the description too. This goes along with what Officer Eric’s widow told me and that was that Officer Zelms took a ‘folded up’ Z composite poster with him on each patrol or shift so that if he ever saw him "again" he ‘might recognize him.’ She still has this poster.

Det.Toschi read that confidential memo so he knew what was said during the private interview.

I know Officer Fouke has said he does not remember (T does!) speaking with Det.Toschi,but that is not the point. It was that memo that gave all the info as to what both men saw that night.

‘Dave has said that the Artist has retired to Mexico.’Det.Toschi knew and worked with this Artist,of course!
This was the same man Sandy spoke to by phone some years ago. See her account of this conversation and his confirming he did the Z composite with both Officers as found on my site.

Of course,we know that Officer Fouke has said he did not sit with the Artist at any time.
He has also said he did know if Officer Zelms saw the WMA that night!

Did Det.Toschi see the Riverside desk?

Det.T said he and Sherwood Morrill, "…went to Riverside together to examine it [the desk-poem] personally. The writing was upside down as you [HD] noted. Dave said he was "very suprised that Morrill’ was able to match the writing on the desk with Zodiac, given that it was on wood rather than on paper. "

"Upside down" meaning it was on the desk table’s bottom surface- not on top of the desk’s surface as I was told several times by the very photographer who took the original photos! I took heat for this,but the photographer who was a professional that took the pictures was there I was not.
He told me it was on the "unfinished" side or bottom. The top was varnished he said. He would not budge at all on this fact. He told me if I examined the photos I could see that the wood grains where the poem was written or etched did not stand out as did the top or varnished side.

He remembers being called to RCC and having to take shots at ‘different angles’ because the poem was on the ‘bottom surface’ of the desk top rather than the top itself.

Det.Toschi is not saying that he was "surprised" Morrill made a positive ID to Z’s writing per se,but that he was able to do it from wood! Of course,the man was a very experienced Expert and world authority on Zodiac’s writing;and that’s part of their training as not everything is written on paper,of course.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 12:31 am

Someone sit all these cops down at the same table already. All these contradictory stories are maddening.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 12:33 am

Nacht, I found out from a very respected LE source that to this day, SFPD refuses to share the possible Zodiac DNA with anyone, even fellow law enforcement! They have to send it to SFPD. So the jurisdictional, ego and other BS issues continue!

tracers, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 1:51 am

Igloo dont get nasty im not your husband fight with him!!!

Salus, a totally inappropriate comment. We are looking for actual arguments here, not sexist retorts. Woodenigloo provided a rational response to your post, and you should have responded in kind.

And I agree with Nacht–all these differing accounts from different members of LE ARE maddening!

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 2:23 am

Post subject:

My latest Q&A from a most generous Duffy Jennings and an equally generous Det.Toschi. I am very grateful for their help and I hope this helps everyone’s understanding of the case.

Sorry it took awhile as they don”t get together every day and I have to cycle back and make requests,etc.!

Did Det.Toschi believe Z was seated in front or in the rear seat of the cab?
Det.Toschi says Z entered from the ‘north side of Geary into the front passenger side’ of the cab and that he was "never" in the rear seat. From his work he has ‘always believed that Z was in the front seat the entire time.’

Comment.We do know that when the teens first saw Z and Stine they were in the front seat ‘struggling’ or ‘fighting.’ We know, of course, Z was cutting a portion of Stine’s shirt for future letter/crime verification.

Then they saw Z, after wiping down the inside front area of the cab,get out and start wiping the cab down and he then went around to the driver’s side doing the same thing.
We never find him wiping down the rear of the cab where he would have spent considerble time until they reached Washington/Maple/Cherry Sts.

No one saw Z in the rear seat,so until other evidence would prove otherwise it is safe as per Det.Toschi to place Z in the front seat the entire death trip.

Duffy says that in his account of the cab murder in "Great Crimes of San Francisco"he agreed with Det.Toschi by having Z entering the front passenger side and staying there the whole trip.

Did the Police Artist sit with Fouke and Zelms for the Z composite?

Det.Toschi said the artist did, "indeed talk with both officers for the sketch,and that he and Armstrong did file the inter-departmental memo you[HD] mention. Both officers were "extremely upset after reading the newspapers,"said Toschi."They felt they had very likely encountered our killer and they were very embarrassed about it."

Comment.The inter-departmental memo was filed after both Dets. received it from SFPD. This memo came from the interview of Officers Zelms and Fouke and then it was sent as the aforementioned memo to Dets.Toschi and Armstrong,and they, in turn, filed it. It was confidential.
It stated what the two Patrolmen had seen 10/11/69 ,etc.,and that both Officers were "shattered and filled with despair"as given by GS as per T. This initial interview was done 10/16/69 at 9AM,according to GS.

Det.confirms both Patrolmen actually sat with the SFPD Artist and helped produce their version of what the WMA looked like. Det.T is firm on this. He was closely connected to the case we were not.
The sitting session was not based just on Fouke’s recall,but Zelms added to the description too. This goes along with what Officer Eric’s widow told me and that was that Officer Zelms took a ‘folded up’ Z composite poster with him on each patrol or shift so that if he ever saw him "again" he ‘might recognize him.’ She still has this poster.

Det.Toschi read that confidential memo so he knew what was said during the private interview.

I know Officer Fouke has said he does not remember (T does!) speaking with Det.Toschi,but that is not the point. It was that memo that gave all the info as to what both men saw that night.

‘Dave has said that the Artist has retired to Mexico.’Det.Toschi knew and worked with this Artist,of course!
This was the same man Sandy spoke to by phone some years ago. See her account of this conversation and his confirming he did the Z composite with both Officers as found on my site.

Of course,we know that Officer Fouke has said he did not sit with the Artist at any time.
He has also said he did know if Officer Zelms saw the WMA that night!

Did Det.Toschi see the Riverside desk?

Det.T said he and Sherwood Morrill, "…went to Riverside together to examine it [the desk-poem] personally. The writing was upside down as you [HD] noted. Dave said he was "very suprised that Morrill’ was able to match the writing on the desk with Zodiac, given that it was on wood rather than on paper. "

"Upside down" meaning it was on the desk table’s bottom surface- not on top of the desk’s surface as I was told several times by the very photographer who took the original photos! I took heat for this,but the photographer who was a professional that took the pictures was there I was not.
He told me it was on the "unfinished" side or bottom. The top was varnished he said. He would not budge at all on this fact. He told me if I examined the photos I could see that the wood grains where the poem was written or etched did not stand out as did the top or varnished side.

He remembers being called to RCC and having to take shots at ‘different angles’ because the poem was on the ‘bottom surface’ of the desk top rather than the top itself.

Det.Toschi is not saying that he was "surprised" Morrill made a positive ID to Z’s writing per se,but that he was able to do it from wood! Of course,the man was a very experienced Expert and world authority on Zodiac’s writing;and that’s part of their training as not everything is written on paper,of course.

Thanks Boilermaker for posting this. Credit for this FINE research goes out to Howard aka Bruce here on our site! Also Credit for it being found on Tom’s site!* This is very a great post on Howards part, and he found out some things we all wanted the answers to. Many Thanks to Howard aka Bruce!

MAZZY, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 2:27 am

Does anyone know if the cab that Stine drove had a # or medallion with the # on it with the keys. What color was the walllet? Or what style wallet?

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 9:36 am

It might not be relevant but I seem to remember the cab having a plate (license plate?) ending with the numbers 413.

This just caught my eye at the time because it’s 314 backwards and PI (3.14) possibly seems to feature in some of Z’s writings. Also, not forgetting that 3/14 is the birthdate of a popular POI too!

bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 9:37 am

Thanks Boilermaker for posting this. Credit for this FINE research goes out to Howard aka Bruce here on our site! Also Credit for it being found on Tom’s site!* This is very a great post on Howards part, and he found out some things we all wanted the answers to. Many Thanks to Howard aka Bruce!

Agreed. I’m with him on the first two points. So what does Z riding in the front seat mean? That Stine recognized him? I’m not all that familiar with basic cab etiquette. I’ve ridden in the front seats of cabs but only when the back seat was full.

I also feel certain F&Z helped with the amended wanted poster as I mentioned a few posts prior.

The last point, the desk handwriting, is the tough one for me. Yes, Morrill was an expert and I’m certainly not, however others who were experts disagreed with him. No three stroke K (being written on a surface not conducive to flowing movements, you would think a three stroke would be in order), no slanted double back d, one candy cane f and some low crossed ts. A huge factor too, as it would place Z at the campus.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 9:54 am

If Z was a Vallejo/Napa boy then I can still see why he could commit a crime in San Fran to complicate the investigation.

San Fran might be quicker to reach from Vallejo than LB is but the sheer quantity of inhabitants and the amount of visitors passing through San Fran would make it a nightmare for investigators looking for a nutjob. Chuck in a Southern CA connection later on and the investigation now becomes a state wide search for a guy who kills women, men and couples in daylight or at night rather than guy who shoots couples necking in lovers lanes out in the boonies.

All of a sudden, no person in California is safe and LE’s investigation becomes colossal. Very shrewd of Z…

bayarea60s, Subject: Quag Thu May 13, 2010 2:56 pm

Quag….

Yes it was…It got him just what he wanted. When Stine happened it enveloped the entire Bay Area, and all knew they were at risk and that Z could show up anywhere.

Boilermaker, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:30 am

I thought it odd that Z would ride in the front seat also….I dont believe Stines log ever mentioned additional riders on this cab ride; could it be that the 2 knew eachother?
Also – shooting Stine in the back of the head would have involved Stine looking out his side window or Z forcing him to turn his head..just thinking out loud and find this another nuance to the case

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:34 am

As I understand it, Paul got shot in the right side of the head, not the back. In front of his right ear.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:49 am

As I understand it, Paul got shot in the right side of the head, not the back. In front of his right ear.

So that would mean the front passenger seat. Honestly there is no protocol of where to sit. Seated so close to the front of his right ear.

Boilermaker, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:54 am

Thanks Nacht – that makes logical sense then from him sitting in front passenger seat…probably wanted to be as close as possible + waste no time in getting his piece of shirt et al before taking off

bayarea60s, Subject: Nach…. Fri May 14, 2010 8:14 am

Thanks for the post on where Stine bullet entered. Says right there in medical report, "Anterial of right ear"..Been studying case for 41 years and just now figuring out where Stine wound was? Pretty sad of me. Read that report a thousand times and until you just brought it up, I just assumed I knew what it meant. I didn’t. According to that terminology then Stine was shot below right temple.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 8:40 am

You’re welcome, folks! ‘Anterior’ means ‘toward the front’ or ‘forward of’ in medical jargon.

entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 8:44 am

Appreciate all of the good feedback. I’m not sure that I agree with the premise that because Zodiac was carrying a weapon that night, he must have been planning to kill someone. We know he owned several weapons and he was, afterall, already wanted on multiple counts of murder. He may have brought along his weapon only when he planned to attack someone or he may have carried it concealed at all times for self-protection or in case police tried to take him into custody. Who knows? Just saying it wouldn’t be that uncommon for a wanted fugitive with a collection of multiple guns to be carrying one at any given time.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 8:52 am

I wholeheartedly agree with you there, Entropy. The Lake B event was obviously planned but this crime was not a couple and not in a lover’s retreat so there’s every chance that Z just lost the plot with Stine which is why he had to quickly rub out all his fingerprints and ended up being seen by just about everyone in the area. Very sloppy indeed.

bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 9:57 am

Yes, he could have been carrying the gun already, and he could have found his way back to his car where he hailed the cab (if that’s the case). So, on an impulse, why the Washington and Maple address? Did he pick it out of thin air? Did he already know it was a quiet neighborhood with easy park access? Why not say Jackson? Did he live close enough to easily walk home?

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 11:35 am

If it wasn’t a planned attack, this is my take on what could have happened:

Z was staying/living/etc somewhere around Washington/Cherry. On the way back for some reason or another (whether he got the urge or Stine said something that upset him) Z decides he is going to murder Stine. Obviously he wouldn’t want to do it on his own block, outside his place, etc but he can’t divert Stine too far away as he has to walk back to his place after the kill.

As they near Z’s destination, he asks Stine to drive on just one more block to Washington/Maple and as he’s pulling up, Z shoots him point blank. Z’s thinking on his feet now so takes the wallet and keys (to make it look like a robbery?) and sticks on Stine’s glasses as a makeshift getaway disguise. He knows he has to quickly wipe down parts of the cab as he wasn’t really planning the murder and has no doubt touched the interior and the door outside where he hailed him. He hasn’t brought anything with him so he grabs Stine, pulls him over towards him and tears off the back of his shirt. He wipes down everything he can remember touching and whilst outside he realises that there are lights on in the house opposite and people in the window.

He obviously now doesn’t want to head off in the direction of his place as he thinks people could be watching him, so he heads in the other direction down Cherry Street to go make his way around the block unseen to his original destination. Of course, this would take him east along Jackson street, which is exactly where Foukes sees him at this very time. Thankfully, there’s been the mother of all cock ups and LE are looking for a black guy so Z keeps cool and carries on to his place where he gets to observe the aftermath.

He can’t believe his luck that he has eluded the police, got them checking out the Presidio thinking he had headed there and he also has some proof to send in to the paper to rub their noses in it. It’s a great result for him but he’s annoyed at being so impulsive and almost getting caught so we see an immediate end to his run of killings.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:51 pm

Planned. By why so soon after LB?

entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 3:11 am

Does anyone have any specific thoughts on the basic question: Why Mason & Geary? Whether or not Z planned to kill that night, this spot just seems to be a very strange spot to pick up a potential victim. Z could have hailed a cab anywhere, at any time, and directed it to his location yet he chose to do so from a busy location in the city at one of the busiest possible times. Was this just a random choice? Planned as an easy spot to find a cab? Was Z taking in a show or otherwise engaged somewhere nearby? Why expose himself to so many potential eyewitnesses? Why does entropy ask so many rhetrical questions?

Here’s a good photo of the spot, FWIW, courtesy of Vallejo Dave at ZK.com:

morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 6:41 am

Maybe he had a hotel there or something, and just checked out. Maybe he did see a show. I definitely think he had a car stashed near the Stine scene, or a "safehouse" that he could hide in (apartment,hotel,etc). I definitely think he planned it all.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 6:47 am

The strange choice of pick-up point is partly why I don’t think it was planned. Until this murder, Zodiac was a guy who liked to creep around secluded areas picking off couples. However, for the Stine killing he gets a cab from a busy downtown area on a weekend where anyone could have seen him getting in and then almost bungles everything by seemingly leaving prints everywhere, has to hack off the victim’s clothing in a rush to clean the prints off and then gets seen by kids and police as he’s escaping.

If it was planned, I think he’d have been a lot more careful and would have worn gloves throughout, called the cab from a quieter area with less passers by, picked a later murder time when there’d be less chance of witnesses looking out of their windows, etc

Of course, he could have been wearing a disguise, planted false fingerprints, etc as part of a planned misdirection but I don’t believe this. I think he lost control on this one particular occasion which is why he seemed to imminently crawl back under his rock and stop killing people for at least a while as he realised he was getting sloppy and would be caught if he wasn’t too careful.

bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 9:09 am

Just a guess Entropy, but isn’t a busy place sometimes a good place to remain anonymous? At least that’s what they do in the movies, the kidnapper exchanges the girl for the money in a crowded subway. Most likely no one will take notice of someone hopping in a cab at Mason and Geary, but if it happened in a quieter area one might.

Maybe the bus he hopped on after leaving his car near the Presideo went by M&G and it just looked like a good place to catch a cab.

That said, no reason he couldn’t have planned the thing prior and also taken in a show waiting for dark.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 10:43 am

I don´t think Zodiac ever performed any kind of criminal activity unless VERY well planed.

I think the planing, creating ideas/consepts for the murders and correspondings ect. was a HUGE part of his "game".

I also think he was a very controled and perfectionistic individual.

bayarea60s, Subject: Foreginer Mon May 17, 2010 3:46 pm

Foreigner Stated….

"I don´t think Zodiac ever performed any kind of criminal activity unless VERY well planed.
I think the planing, creating ideas/consepts for the murders and correspondings ect. was a HUGE part of his "game".
I also think he was a very controled and perfectionistic individual."

I totally agree with you there Foreigner. He was good enough to win the game against LE. Many in LE devoted their life to this case and they weren’t used to losing, yet they could never capture this guy. So we should never underestimate Z’s inteliigence.
He knew exactly what he was doing. So when we debate like finger prints, it’s kind of laughable to me. Really? Does anyone really think Z would be that stupid? I don’t, and I think the record speaks to support that the prints were a bust. They lifted lots of prints in Napa and lots in SF, but LE never announces a match between the 2 sites. I have to assume cause there wasn’t a match. And if there isn’t a match then you have to throw out all of Napa Prints, or all of SF prints, or maybe both, and not waste your time.

entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 4:42 am

Let’s not forget that Zodiac stated that he was in disguise that night. So why would he care if he was seen? He was disguised.

But even if he wasn’t disguised, the area around Union Square is absolutely teeming with cabs, and individuals getting in and out of them. Especially on a weekend night. It is such a common occurance that nobody notices, or cares, or would even remember it the next day after reading about a cabbie murder.

Now, before anyone wants to argue what I’ve posted, please name me all of the witnesses from downtown who came forward the next day and had seen the Zodiac.

Oops, there weren’t any. Because nobody noticed.

/discussion.

Igloo,

Agreed… perhaps the busy area around Union Square offered Z a sense of anonymity. SOMEONE almost certainly saw him hail Stine’s cab that night but probably had no recollection of seeing it because it seemed utterly normal in the context of a busy Saturday night in San Francisco. Yes, Z claimed to have worn a disguise. He claimed to have worn airplane glue on his fingertips. He claimed to have left "false clews" at the Stine scene in which he was observed wiping down the cab. I think it’s relevant to this thread to consider Z’s own responses to the claims by police that they had a viable composite sketch and fingerprints and that Z’s time as an UNSUB was numbered.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/BombLetter1.html

I’ve always viewed Z as a compulsive liar, or at least someone who would offer misdirection any time he felt threatened. The Bus Bomb letter, IMO, is pure misdirection offered because he knew he screwed up royally at the Stine scene and was very nearly caught. He was very nearly caught because of either incredibly poor planning or… perhaps a lack of planning, which is the rhetorical question offered by this thread.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 12:35 pm

Just a guess Entropy, but isn’t a busy place sometimes a good place to remain anonymous?

Absolutely! Who gives a rats-ass about some guy getting into a cab in the middle of busy SF? If Zodiac "called in a pick-up", well…that’s not good.

He needed to be somewhere where he could just hop in a cab and no one would be the wiser. imo..

bayarea60s, Subject: Entropy Wed May 19, 2010 2:34 pm

It could be that Z didn’t even need to hail a cab, but just walk up to one parked in a cab zone in the area. And if in fact Z sat in the front seat, that to me would be a huge revelation. No one sits in the front seat of a cab, unless invited to do so by the cabbie and cabbies don’t invite strangers to sit up front with them. Think of all the cabs you’ve ever seen in service. How many times have you ever seen 1 passenger in a cab riding in the front seat? I grew up in NYC, actually Brooklyn, but saw millions of cabs in my life there I’m sure, and I don’t recall ever seeing one passenger in a cab in the front seat.

morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 3:18 pm

How do we know that Z was riding in the front seat? I think I missed that. Why couldnt he have shot Stine, then moved up to the front seat, where he was then witnessed by the kids at the window?

bayarea60s, Subject: Morf, Z in Front Seat? Wed May 19, 2010 3:44 pm

Morf…

It has been reported on Tom’s site recently that connection was made with Detective Toschi by Duffy Jennings (Paul Avery’s replacement on the Chronicle) and he stated that Z shot Stine from the front seat.. I’ve always felt until now that Z was just sitting in back seat and shot Paul from there. I always thought (and incorrectly for some 40 years) that Paul was shot in the head behind his left ear. In fact the autopsy report states Paul was shot in the Anterior of the right ear. In laymen terms that says in front of the right ear, like 2" below the temple area. So that very much supports what Toschi has stated. If Z shoots Paul from the back seat Stine would have had to turn his head to the right, which could have happened. However, if Z is in front seat then Z simply shoots Paul in right side of his head.
I’m sure Toschi must have had even more forensic information than what is stated in report. I would think as the detective he would solely be basing his findings on forensic fact, and not just his feelings. That’s what has recently been reported anyway.

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 7:39 pm

Im surprised that zodiac took time to wipe things down , move over the body in the middle of a big city. Zodiac never showed in any of his killings fear or the need to get away as soon as possible. He was either soo sure of himself or a lunatic , i believe he had confidence. Also could Zodiac not gotten into a car or an apartment and just kept walking to other areas of town turning a block here and there.

morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 7:46 pm

Morf…

It has been reported on Tom’s site recently that connection was made with Detective Toschi by Duffy Jennings (Paul Avery’s replacement on the Chronicle) and he stated that Z shot Stine from the front seat.. I’ve always felt until now that Z was just sitting in back seat and shot Paul from there. I always thought (and incorrectly for some 40 years) that Paul was shot in the head behind his left ear. In fact the autopsy report states Paul was shot in the Anterior of the right ear. In laymen terms that says in front of the right ear, like 2" below the temple area. So that very much supports what Toschi has stated. If Z shoots Paul from the back seat Stine would have had to turn his head to the right, which could have happened. However, if Z is in front seat then Z simply shoots Paul in right side of his head.
I’m sure Toschi must have had even more forensic information than what is stated in report. I would think as the detective he would solely be basing his findings on forensic fact, and not just his feelings. That’s what has recently been reported anyway.

Certainly interesting. It doesnt prove Z knew Stine. He could have jumped in and said "this is a holdup, drive", or something along those lines.

bayarea60s, Subject: Morf13… Wed May 19, 2010 9:44 pm

Of course it doesn’t prove that Stine knew Z. And I haven’t heard enough from Toschi himself on this issue to determine that Z was in the front seat. In fact it has been 41 years, there have been books written, movies made where Toschi has given his input as to the Stine murder and I don’t recall Toschi ever correcting the depictions of the crime. And to my knowledge all reports have always been shooter in rear seat. It could be as easy to explain as when Stine turns to tell passenger what the Fare is he gets shot. Again I’d like to hear more from Toschi on this.

bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 21, 2010 11:01 am

Wonder if the rear door handles yielded any clues. There should have been either the prints of the prior occupant, Z prints matching the front door area, prior prints smudged by Z’s gloved or masked hand, handles wiped clean by Z, etc..

I don’t see why Z could not have shot Stine in the temple from the back seat. Could have put the gun to his head at Maple and had him drive the extra block that way, or pulled it and shot just when Stine was shifting into park. Had the gun come from Z’s pocket in the front seat, Stine would have more notice that it was headed for his temple than if coming from behind him, even if just a second more.

Guess it boils down to if a front seated Z knowing Stine, then there’s the question of how he knew he’d be at the Mason and Geary location on what was supposed to be his night off. Graysmith says they figured out the M&G location based on the meter reading in the cab. Was there another source (dispatch) that definitely put him at that location?

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:26 pm

i believe that Paul Stines murder was a planned murder that went bad somehow. It would make sense if they were suppose to go to one address but really drove a block or two. Maybe there was a person walking down the street, and the Z didn’t want witnesses (which he never has had before)

bayarea60s, Subject: Auntie… Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:35 am

I’ve always wondered if the infamous dog walker was coming down on Maple, south of Washington, Or coming right down on Washington towards Maple.