Yes Vince I think this has to be how it happened…almost exactly anyway!

Your theory about him seeing people at W & M and then instructing Paul to go a block further certainly makes sense EXCEPT if the reason he didn’t stop there was because people were around, I think one block further would still be very dangerous! How would he know where the people were going to go? It has been many years since I’ve been in San Francisco but have walked around almost the entire downtown in my younger days!

As I recall, the blocks are not unusually long and many of them are hilly. IDK if I could tell by looking at the map but seem to remember thinking that W&C looked fairly flat.

I just wonder if there was a different reason for his changing the stop. We’ll probably never know like so many other things but perhaps it was something like seeing a loose dog walking along or lights on in open windows at street level at W&C or indeed people as you say.

Seeing people out and about only one block from where you decide to murder someone seems very risky, but as you ask, he may have felt he had nothing to lose at this point and it was "all or nothing" and maybe he unconsciously wanted to get caught.

Very good point you bring up there.

I have never been to San Fran, how far is the distance between W&M and W&C? These events tend to get fabricated, I am trying to think of the most logical, easy way, that these actions actually occurred.

I think he most likely touched the drivers door as he got in that way after he shot Paul Stine, he likely pushed him over and took his seat to do what he needed to do. Where exactly was Paul’s body found? I haven’t read the police reports in quite some time, though it would possibly back up this theory if he Paul was found no longer on the drivers seat.

Instead of ‘clues’ or subliminal intentions, I believe Zodiac did genuinely anticipate to commit this crime at W&M, though something on the journey forced him to improvise, and that is what he did. It was probably something relatively easy to explain; perhaps he simply wasn’t ready when the car pulled up at W&M, or W&C was closer to his car, and he wanted a slightly lesser walk to it.

Vince I posted a picture of the position Paul was found in on the previous page of this thread.

I did clock that, thank you for the image Seagull.

It does back up my own opinion and belief that he was ‘shifted over’ to the passenger side. I believe Zodiac entered the front of the cab via Paul Stine’s door, and took his seat briefly to remove his shirt and other items.

The Zodiac Killer toyed with police and authorities, but by saying ‘I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night’, he had little to gain. If he had killed Paul Stine at Washington and Cherry, he may as well have said it. No gunshot was heard at either location or it would have been reported and logic says that he indeed used a silencer. The fact he walked back on himself down Jackson Street, towards Maple, having already passed Washington and Maple moments earlier in the taxicab, suggests the initial premise, to commit the murder at Washington and Maple and head up Maple Street, where he belatedly did end up after probably passing Fouke and Zelms. Whatever happened to cause this change of plan is subjective, but why claim a murder at Washington and Maple, and then stop one block later and backtrack. The fact remains if it was the Zodiac Killer on the North side of Jackson Street, why would you want to be the rabbit in the headlights, walk on the side further away. Or the sighting of this person was not that of the Zodiac Killer, if it was then there has to be very good reason why you would present yourself closer to oncoming traffic and more importantly police cars approaching the scene of the crime. The destination that Stine entered in his log and called in to his dispatcher was at the corner of Washington and Maple Street, but something went awry, that is where he claims the murder, so it is logical why he backtracked.

I’ve often wondered if Z maybe had to get into the drivers seat to take the wheel for some reason. Even imagined that Z had Stine stop a few blocks before Maple and got out to pay and shot him from outside the car. Then maybe Z had to drive the car down to Cherry for some unknown reason. However, if we start thinking that Z got behind the wheel in the front drivers seat then we run into problems! The witnesses were clear that they saw Stine slumped over, head in the lap of a person in the front passengers seat. So, if we were to believe that Z, for some reason, had to get into the front drivers seat then we’d have to believe that a lot of time passed. 1. Z jumps from the rear seat into the front drivers seat. 2. Z exits the front drivers seat and goes to the front passengers seat and pulls Stine over into his lap to cut the shirt. 3. Z then returns to the front drivers area to wipe it down. Seems quite improbable. So, while i have no idea exactly how things went down that night i do try to keep the witness recollection in mind.

To continue…the first kid at the window sain the driver looked "sick, or something". Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he’s stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place. (No shots were heard by anyone)
We know now that Z was cutting off a large piece of Stein’s shirt with the knife.

At this time, lindsey went downstairs to get a better look at what was happening, while one of the kids upstairs called the Police. Downstairs, the lights were off, so Lindsey knew he could not be seen from the outside. He got close to the window and watched his actions. He was shortly joined by Rebecca. They both watched and observed in silence as Z pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North.

This is from an interview with the witnesses from across the street. A few post down at this thread –

http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=402

Thank you for that.

First time I read it. I wonder:

1. Why did Zodiac open the drivers door after being sat in the passenger seat, why was it necessary?
2. Why was he so determined to have Paul sat up right? Surely if he is dead..that is mission accomplished and he should get out of there asap…

I think Zodiac probably leaned on the dashboard to take the cab keys out of the ignition.That’s way he got out and wiped the diver side dashboard.I like what UKspycatcher said about how Paul probably turned around to get the cab fare.That explains way Paul was shot in the temple and not the back of the head.

i have always thought Zodiac must have been on some kind of drugs that day, maybe amphetamine or something like that. That made him more fearless and careless than he actually was. I cant find any other reason why he would act like he did after the murder. Spending a minute or more in and out of the car and getting blood all over his clothes. Should be a very unnecessary risk to take.
The day after i think he realize how close he was to getting caught and how big a risk he actually took. That probably change something in him that made him stop killing. They say serialkillers never stops, but they certainly take breaks, Dennis Rader(btk) had not killed for 14years when he was caught.

Just a thought…

Does the police report note if the emergency brake was pulled? If the car wasn’t shut off, which I think it’s fair to assume that it was not, Stine would’ve had both the clutch and the brake depressed. If Z shot Stine at Washington and his foot stayed on the clutch but came off the brake, the car could’ve rolled until Z was able to pull the emergency brake.

If Zodiac was seen in the drivers seat at W&C, then we can only assume this is where he shot Paul Stine.

Paul pulls up at W&C and turns round to collect the fare from Z, Zodiac then shoots him in the side of the head. Requiring his possessions, Zodiac then got out and for some reason let himself in Paul’s drivers door rather than the passenger door, he pushes Paul towards the passenger seat and he does what he needs to do. Upon leaving the cab he wipes down the dash board, and the handle of the drivers door as this is where he let himself in.

That is just a theoretical assumption I have made based upon my own opinion on what went down in that couple of minutes, or relatively close to it.

Can anybody see any inconsistency’s?

If Zodiac was seen in the drivers seat at W&C, then we can only assume this is where he shot Paul Stine.

Zodiac was seen in the cab’s "mid to passenger side" with Stine "slumped partially over his lap." He then leaned over Stine’s body to access the driver’s compartment. Afterwards, he "exited the cab by the passenger side front door" before he "walked around the cab to the driver’s side."

I think that leaves little doubt that Zodiac was in the passenger’s seat, as if he was in the driver’s seat, he’d have exited via the driver side front door and walked around to the passenger side. Plus, according to the report, Stine was already slumped over in his lap, in a position similar to the one that he was found in, before Zodiac exited the cab.

What I’d be interested in knowing is…

Was there a bullethole in the cab that might indicate more precisely the direction of the bullet?

Why take the keys? Zodiac was generally well-prepared, if he needed something to cut the fabric, I believe he would have brought it with him.

Source: http://zodiackiller.com/StineReport1.html

Given that, I agree..its a fair assumption that he was sat in the passenger side. Though, it does not explain why he felt the need to wipe down the drivers side door handle?

One of the witnesses from the house initially thought Z was stabbing Paul Stine, realistically I think she could see the shine of the knife or scissors in which he was using to cut the shirt, and this made it appear like a stabbing. Zodiac imo had a knife or scissors with him.

I think he took the keys as a trophy, to look back on. Or to confuse police further..

I have thought for a long time that Z was simply parked on Maple in-between Washington and Jackson. If you look at that part of the block there are no driveways and a good place to park a car for an extended period of time.

There is a consensus that PH was all planned out by Z. But I think he went over there because he was picking up his car, and then took a big risk and got away with it. Probably nothing to link him to that corner, but he seemed to have parked there for a reason. Maybe it was a long term place to leave a car, maybe he worked close by on Clement but had to head downtown. Or he lived downtown and would leave his car up there because it is a safe place to leave it.

I personally don’t think he had his own vehicle anywhere in the area. That is far too risky. Just thinking that if I planned this myself, I would not have my car anywhere near that neighborhood. Maybe he had someone waiting for him somewhere, or maybe there was a certain millionaire car importer who lived nearby and he hid out there until morning.

I struggle with the idea of multiple people being responsible for the actions of Zodiac. It’s not that people aren’t capable of collusion — but there are so many aspects to these crimes, and even if the killer was very organized and planned out every step — which seems likely — the idea that two (and especially three) different people might have motives that line up so well seems improbable. It would take a very affected person to make sense, even to themselves, of all these activities — and I can’t picture the letter-writer, with an ego this size, having the impulse control to keep the whole thing under wraps.

I will, however, continue to keep an open mind.