Donna Lass, assuming her to be a Z victim, would indicate the Letterman Hospital. IMO Z was not inside the park when police had searched him.

QT

I do agree with Norse that Z was a car guy, and yes having a car one block (down hill) on Maple would be the only plan I could see making any sense.
There are major geographic obstacles in that area I think often go overlooked. A big hill is to the east, not something a heavy set man would want to hike up.
The park to the north is not only full of brush, but it was an active army base. Why anyone would plan that escape route is beyond me.

Norse: I think you’re dead on about Z having a car parked nearby. Question is, why the initial stop? And, why the obviously public crime scene when, heretofore, he’d favored private places, like Lovers’ Lanes?

With the lack of gloves, leaving prints behind, not wearing a mask in a fairly populated area, and lack of a well planned escape… My theory, that PH was not pre-planned.
I think Z was going there to get his car, armed for a night of trolling around. But then he took a chance with Stine. He might have abandoned the idea of driving away (after seeing the police) and made a run for it in the Presidio, but if that was his plan, it was a stupid one.

I agree with Norse, if he had a car, his initial plan was for Washington and Maple and likely a quick trudge up Maple to the corner of Jackson and Maple, hence why he was backtracking along Jackson from Cherry. But if he did enter the park his likely exit was east, away from the commotion.

Not a question about it.
Fouke spoke to Zodiac.
My time line is Fouke and Zelms are heading to the crime scene looking for a black male .
They see a white male walking down the street turning into a house.
They pull up to the side of the house and ask the white male aka zodiac is he has seen a black male.
It’s dark and we do not know what cover zodiac had or how close they were.

but waiting a month to report and only after zodiac mentions it. says to me they covered it up so the SFPD did not look stupid . Hence why they have so much certainty in the zodiac description Fouke gave.

I don’t believe the Zodiac, Who was carrying a gun, a murder victim’s car keys and a piece of the victim’s shirt would ever allow himself to be stopped by the police on the street at night. I walked those streets during my investigation. I did so at 10 at night. Zodiac was on foot in a dark street element with plenty of shrubs, driveways and walkways to hide in. There are cars parked on the street and plenty of places to hide. There is no way in hell he is gonna let himself get cornered with all that evidence on him. I believe he would have shot any officer cornering him. I don’t know what the heck those officers were reporting but I guarantee you they did not stop a ruthless killer on a dark street 3 minutes after he brutally murdered a innocent cab driver. Remember Zodiac had 5 shots left.

No mention anywhere of the police cruiser utilizing a spotlight to search the area. I think the composite is of someone else. I think the Zodiac witnessed the police contact with the unconnected composite suspect. Z may have lived on base in temp barracks associated with hospital outpatients including mental patients. It is a possibility he took the piece of shirt not only to prove it to the Chronicle but to show someone else

My POI was a blonde male, in the army, in San Francisco (except for 7 mos the killings stopped) as he was overseas. My POI traveled between Fort Ord, Presidio and Travis AFB. He attended Army Intelligence School, and had a serious medical event while in the Army. There is much more I believe but i’m already drifting off this subject

tgoz

I don’t believe the Zodiac, Who was carrying a gun, a murder victim’s car keys and a piece of the victim’s shirt would ever allow himself to be stopped by the police on the street at night. I walked those streets during my investigation. I did so at 10 at night. Zodiac was on foot in a dark street element with plenty of shrubs, driveways and walkways to hide in. There are cars parked on the street and plenty of places to hide. There is no way in hell he is gonna let himself get cornered with all that evidence on him. I believe he would have shot any officer cornering him. I don’t know what the heck those officers were reporting but I guarantee you they did not stop a ruthless killer on a dark street 3 minutes after he brutally murdered a innocent cab driver. Remember Zodiac had 5 shots left.

No mention anywhere of the police cruiser utilizing a spotlight to search the area. I think the composite is of someone else. I think the Zodiac witnessed the police contact with the unconnected composite suspect. Z may have lived on base in temp barracks associated with hospital outpatients including mental patients. It is a possibility he took the piece of shirt not only to prove it to the Chronicle but to show someone else

My POI was a blonde male, in the army, in San Francisco (except for 7 mos the killings stopped) as he was overseas. My POI traveled between Fort Ord, Presidio and Travis AFB. He attended Army Intelligence School, and had a serious medical event while in the Army. There is much more I believe but i’m already drifting off this subject

tgoz

Your thought process is a neat package .. how calm can you be when confronted by the blue meanies after such a "thrilling" kill. BUT you do have an advantage.. a gun with five rounds, you are a psychopath and it is just a game. If he asks you the wrong question you keep playing !!

Quote: "No mention anywhere of the police cruiser utilizing a spotlight to search the area. I think the composite is of someone else. I think the Zodiac witnessed the police contact with the unconnected composite suspect. Z may have lived on base in temp barracks associated with hospital outpatients including mental patients. It is a possibility he took the piece of shirt not only to prove it to the Chronicle but to show someone else" End quote.

Well, hell, if he "showed it to somebody else" don’t you think the showee would have maybe told the cops? Wasn’t there some reward money offered?

I don’t believe the Zodiac, Who was carrying a gun, a murder victim’s car keys and a piece of the victim’s shirt would ever allow himself to be stopped by the police on the street at night. I walked those streets during my investigation. I did so at 10 at night. Zodiac was on foot in a dark street element with plenty of shrubs, driveways and walkways to hide in. There are cars parked on the street and plenty of places to hide. There is no way in hell he is gonna let himself get cornered with all that evidence on him. I believe he would have shot any officer cornering him. I don’t know what the heck those officers were reporting but I guarantee you they did not stop a ruthless killer on a dark street 3 minutes after he brutally murdered a innocent cab driver. Remember Zodiac had 5 shots left.

No mention anywhere of the police cruiser utilizing a spotlight to search the area. I think the composite is of someone else. I think the Zodiac witnessed the police contact with the unconnected composite suspect. Z may have lived on base in temp barracks associated with hospital outpatients including mental patients. It is a possibility he took the piece of shirt not only to prove it to the Chronicle but to show someone else

My POI was a blonde male, in the army, in San Francisco (except for 7 mos the killings stopped) as he was overseas. My POI traveled between Fort Ord, Presidio and Travis AFB. He attended Army Intelligence School, and had a serious medical event while in the Army. There is much more I believe but i’m already drifting off this subject

tgoz

Your POI must not have looked like the composite.

Seriously though…

Zodiac didn’t know he’d been seen at the murder scene. He was probably hoping the cop car would just pass him by. Freak-out and and make a sprint for some bushes…it’s surely the guy they are looking for.

Not only that, but the guy Fouke and Zelms saw was described the same way by the teens.

It was zodiac.
What was he supposed to do run and start a chase ?
Get into a shoot out with 2 armed police officers with the sound of of other police units in the area.
zodiac played it cool and it worked for him.
Fouke knew he screwed up hence the delay in the report.
also ghost of zodiac we have a super duper top secret poi section here go post some details and a timeline.
There are alot of smrt folks here that can help you.

I think Fauke and Zelms head to the scene with the belief in a black suspect. As they approach Maple they see a white man walking and quickly question if he saw anything. I don’t see them actually stopping or calling him over but slowing down and speaking to the white man as they are driving. I believe Fauke’s report that they saw the man turn north on Maple. They continue on and catch reports that they are now looking for a white man. Fauke and Zelms had to have put two and two together and realized the man they saw and, very briefly spoke to, was the man they were looking for. I believe they made an effort to do the right thing and told communications of the sighting just as Fauke claimed in his report dated 11/12/1969 but I do believe as well that they left out the fact they spoke to him. I believe they felt, despite the initial reports of a black suspect, they would never live it down that they actually came into contact with the killer and let him continue on.

The Zodiac, as Norse points out, doesn’t write about the encounter in his first or second letter. This I think goes to show that the Zodiac doesn’t have beef with the police. If he had this would have been the first thing he wrote about and in his first letter. The Zodiac doesn’t write about it because he is on a mission. He has an agenda and it’s personal. It’s what drives him to kill. It’s what drives him to write letters and he completes it systematically like what a person with O.C. would do. By his third letter the Zodiac is pissed and he claims the police are telling lies. What lies? Well I think that’s for another discussion. The point is he is pissed. After he gets his rant out about how great he his and, how he will never be caught and lists the details of why, he starts in on how inept the police are by speaking to him and not realizing he was the one they were looking for. He breaks away from his agenda and only speaks of it because he’s pissed.

At this point Fauke is face to face with his fears. It’s now front page news the killer is claiming Fauke and Zelms stopped him and let him go. Fauke’s report of 11/12/1969 was nothing more than damage control initiated by the Zodiac’s letter. I don’t think anyone told him to do it. I think he felt he had to and I think he might have had the mindset of who are people going to believe; me or a killer?

The interesting thing for me though is that, in the start of Fauke’s report, he says he sees the white man turn north on Maple. Turning north on Maple could have place this man getting in a car, going into a house or heading down towards the park. He doesn’t really know (on the night of Stine’s death) where this white man goes or what he does because he’s passing by in hunt for a black suspect. But immediately following he states the park as it’s a matter of fact. He doesn’t know that on the night of Stine’s death but he surely knows it as a matter of fact as of 11/12/1969 as it’s front page news. I think he just repeated what the Zodiac said, ironically taking the word of a killer, he feared everyone else would do.

Soze

UK…

The timeline for this never has worked out. Some things we just don’t know. Some things I think we have to assume from what we do know.

We don’t know where P was when he received the call, he has never stated, only said he was close, very close to Wash./Cherry. Closer than F when he received the transmission? I doubt it.
We do know where F was when he received the dispatch. I’ve always held the dispatch F is answering is a different one than what P responded to. Here’s why I’ve come to that conclusion. F says when he received the call he was approaching the Washington/Presidio intersection. If F thought he was the responding officer, he would have turned left onto Washington and been at Cherry within 45 seconds of hearing the call. He doesn’t do that, he goes to Jackson and turns left, cause he knows P has already responded and is on his way to the scene. And P may already be at the scene, when F gets the call. The timeline actually has a possibility to work if P is already on the scene. I have it documented here how long it took us in our reenactments of F’s travels up Jackson, and you’re correct it’s not very long. Trying to do it from memory here but I think it was more like 75 secs., not a long time frame for sure. Whether F and Zelm’s spoke with Z from a timeline perspective adds very little, maybe like 5 secs. From the time they encounter Z to Cherry and Jackson is about 5-7 seconds.
Now P’s movements…He pulls up to Cherry & Washington and leaves his squad car facing the cab and somewhat blocking Cherry. He sees the kids approaching the cab, he runs to them, and escorts them back to their house, to the front door. P says he has no idea where the robber is that’s why he escorts the kids back to their front door. So P gets updates from the kids while he is with them, finds out robber is a white guy, not a black guy, and last seen heading N. on Cherry. P then heads over to cab, looks inside, and sees Stine, so now he knows it’s a homicide, not a robbery. I’m sure P goes around the cab to where Stine is lying and checks him out. Then P says "I couldn’t get back to the squad car quick enough to report what I now knew", to update dispatch, perp is white, not black, it’s a homicide not a robbery. Does he actually do that? Or does he immediately head down Cherry looking for the killer? I really don’t know. I would think if he reported that updated info to dispatch, they would be reporting that kind of update before P got out of his car. And thus F would know this at that point, but he doesn’t get that message. So maybe P doesn’t go to his car first figuring it’s better for him to try and catch this killer. Maybe P has his partner do it. We just don’t know those details.
But if we take what we know up to this point with P, how much time has elapsed since he pulled up? If F got the call at the same time, he’d already be at Cherry and Jackson, even if he spent 5 secs talking to Z. and P hasn’t even started to search Cherry yet. The time line just doesn’t work with them answering the same call, and we can’t make it fit.
So again to me the only timeline that makes any sense at all is that when F gets the call P is already on site. It really is amazing the short amount of time we’re talking about here. From when F first sees Z coming down Jackson, the amount of time to when F and Z are at the same place on Jackson is like 3 secs. That’s hard to imagine, but that’s what it is.

The slim possibility exists that the man Fouke saw was an innocent citizen just walking around for whatever reason. It wasn’t that late at night. Later they came across the "man with a dog." It was a fairly densely populated area in a big city. Then you ask: "why didn’t the innocent man come forward and tell his story?" Maybe he hates cops. Maybe he was in fact wanted for some other crime. Maybe he was an escaped prisoner. Maybe he just didn’t want to get involved.

It was probably the Z but not definitely.

End of The World…..

The problem with saying maybe it wasn’t Z that Fouke saw, is that the clothes the guy Fouke saw matched the kids description of Z. but if that isn’t enough, it was Z who first went public with the Fouke encounter in the bus bomb Letter on 11/9/69. That secured that the one Fouke saw was Z.

End of The World…..

The problem with saying maybe it wasn’t Z that Fouke saw, is that the clothes the guy Fouke saw matched the kids description of Z. but if that isn’t enough, it was Z who first went public with the Fouke encounter in the bus bomb Letter on 11/9/69. That secured that the one Fouke saw was Z.

The description does not completely match the kids’ description. Besides, it was basically an average-looking guy. As far as the Z writing the letter, he could conceivably have ducked into a nearby house and observed what Fouke was doing to the innocent passerby. Or he could have learned through the rumor mill what happened. Or he could have taken a lucky guess.

Probably was the Z, but it’s not an absolute certainty.

End of the World.

In lieu of evidence that discounts your statement, "Probably was Z, but it’s not an absolute certainty". It is an absolute certainty, with evidence to back it up. We lack enough absolute certainties in this case, but this is a certainty. So did Fouke or Zelms speak to Z? Only the 3 of them could ever answer that, and after Jan 1970, Zelms is killed so it only leaves Z and Fouke to confirm or deny. And since we haven’t been able to ask Z any more questions we have only Fouke’s version to believe. I do think we may be able to find evidence, though not concrete, in what Z also states in the letter, about their encounter.
Z States "must print in paper", Z’s statement, "Ps. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up & one of them called me over & asked if i saw any one acting suspicious or strange in the last 5-10 min & I said, ‘Yes there was this man who was running by waveing a gun’ & the cops peeled rubber & went around the corner as I directed them."
So Z says when he left the cab he walked directly N. on Cherry, turned right on Jackson, heading east, crossed Jackson so he was on N. side of Jackson, again heading east. He heads down hill on Jackson and that’s when he meets up with Fouke and Zelms. Z says that was about 3 mins since he left cab. that all seems about right. which means that Fouke receives the dispatch about the time Z reaches Cherry and Jackson. P must already be at Washington/Cherry site. P rolled up to site with overhead lights on, Z had to have seen P roll up to scene.
According to Z this is when conversation takes place, Fouke/Zelm call Z over closer to their car and asks if he, Z, saw anything suspicious or strange, and Z answers that he saw a person running and waving a gun, Fouke and Zelms take off to Cherry, and turn left, cause that’s the direction Z tells Fouke and Zelm that the strange guy went.
So Z within this statement reveals some interesting things…..He sets the timeline for his encounter with Fouke, Z says it’s about 3 min. after he left cab, that’s consistent with how long it takes to walk from Wash/Cherry to hill on Jackson St. He states he was walking down the hill, only Z, Foukes and Zelms knows of the encounter and where it took place. Whether they speak or not, who knows, we’re only talking a total of about 8 secs. if they did, when Fouke leaves Z he is about 7 secs from reaching Pellessetti.