Reading through the notes mentioned above, I came across something else which might be of interest here, in particular with regard to the timeline discussed above: Could Z have done what Fouke claims he did, i.e. head up to the entrance of 3712, wait for Fouke to drive off, head back down to Jackson, then on to the corner, then on to Maple?

Let’s keep one thing in mind: Fouke doesn’t actually claim that Z did this. He thought that this is what he did, it was – as he says – his reasoning that Z did this.

Ed Neil once offered a theory about what Z did that night which is very interesting in this context:

* Z is heading downhill as F/Z approach. He slows down, then pretends to enter 3712.
* As soon as it’s safe to move, he heads towards Spruce – where his car is parked.
* With F/Z somewhere on W Pacific (searching for Z, thinking he has headed for the park), Zodiac drives safely away (out on Jackson, out of the area, losing himself in traffic).

I find this plausible enough. It also explains why Z turns east on Jackson (rather than heading straight north on Cherry): He has no intention of reaching the park – his intention is to reach his car. It becomes even more plausible if we go with the idea that his original intention was to kill Stine at Wash/Maple, but that he was forced to go a block further west for whatever reason.

Norse. Always enjoy reading your common sense non-fantastical take on these things. You and I think very similarly on these matters. Think he had a car parked somewhere close to where they spotted him and he made a clean get away. If there were a restaurant or bar or some public gathering place within a couple miles he probably stopped and observed some of the search from afar. If you’re perched up on a hill or some other slightly elevated position you could observe from afar the basic police search.
Makes you think if only the cops would have checked all cab rides (or as many as they could) that came from that general area and went to, maybe the general area of Geary and Mason they might have knocked something loose. Could have taken a bus for sure, but checking the cabs would have been worth a try. Dagnabbit! Pretty sure they never did any such thing. That might have been a real possibility.

There were witnesses who saw a man matching the description given by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke running into Julius Khan playground shortly after the murder. The description is almost exactly the same. Unfortunately many like to drop this sighting of Zodiac because they don’t like the narrative of a killer who claimed he entered the park. If you dismiss this sighting because it’s not convenient, then we may as well dismiss the sighting by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke and just say Zodiac didn’t exist. The sighting of the man running into the park was reported and tallies with the timeline and Bus Bomb claims. Donald Fouke stated he last saw Zodiac turning up Maple in his November 12th 1969 memorandum. In his 2007 Zodiac documentary debacle, he stated he saw a man entering the stairwell of 3712 Jackson but never saw him reach the top of the stairs. That is because he passed the subject in "5, 10, 15 seconds tops".
Zodiac wasn’t in two places at the same time. Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac, but his performance in the 2007 documentary was less than convincing and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Sadly, if you want the truth about the events that night, then Zodiac’s account is more reliable and makes more sense than any of the investigators that night, including Chief Martin Lee.

Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac … … Zodiac’s account is more reliable and makes more sense than any of the investigators that night …

I have to disagree, Richard, that Fouke lied in his scratch (intra-departmental memo).

If you think about it, it makes no sense for him misrepresent what happened. He would need to guarantee that his partner, Zelms, would go along with the lie – a pointless and precarious conspiracy to engage in.

And, he would need to be 100% sure that not a single resident on Jackson peered through their curtains and witnessed him stopping and questioning Z. If such a witness later piped up to the press, Fouke’s paper trail could see him wind up shovelling shinola at the SFPD dog pound.

I do understand that some folks here like to imagine that SFPD coerced Fouke into putting this lie down on paper. But this is the kind of hype that only sounds reasonable in recent decades, in light of the case appearing to be bigger than it was at the time (before Yellowbook and Tom’s site elevated it).

You are correct that Fouke’s recall in 2007 should be taken with a pinch of salt. That goes for many others who took part in those DVD special feature docs, and in the various documentaries in recent years.

There were witnesses who saw a man matching the description given by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke running into Julius Khan playground shortly after the murder. The description is almost exactly the same. Unfortunately many like to drop this sighting of Zodiac because they don’t like the narrative of a killer who claimed he entered the park.

I’ve always thought it likely he entered the park, I just doubt he stayed there. I believe if he had stayed in the park the dogs would have found him.

Someone posted here that there is an exit on one side they think Zodiac could have used to get to his car after passing through the park. It was posted by someone from that area rather recently. That seems a more likely scenario to me.

Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac, but his performance in the 2007 documentary was less than convincing and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I’m not sure what to make of Fouke. He comes across as someone who knows he screwed up royally that night and is trying the best CYA he can.

That might have been me who mentioned the Broadway gate as a likely escape option, (if Z did not live in the neighborhood).

That would make more sense than what SFPD apparently had him doing, which was exiting the Presidio significantly further north, by Letterman Hospital.

The Broadway gate was a half/mile from the entrance to JK, at Spruce and Pacific.

The Letterman gate was over a mile, plus you’d be a civilian walking around an army base at night to get there. Not the smart move.

Also in preparation, he could have parked outside the Broadway gate, walked 2 blocks to Jackson, and taken a simple city bus downtown to Mason Street.

Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac … … Zodiac’s account is more reliable and makes more sense than any of the investigators that night …

I have to disagree, Richard, that Fouke lied in his scratch (intra-departmental memo).

If you think about it, it makes no sense for him misrepresent what happened. He would need to guarantee that his partner, Zelms, would go along with the lie – a pointless and precarious conspiracy to engage in.

And, he would need to be 100% sure that not a single resident on Jackson peered through their curtains and witnessed him stopping and questioning Z. If such a witness later piped up to the press, Fouke’s paper trail could see him wind up shovelling shinola at the SFPD dog pound.

I do understand that some folks here like to imagine that SFPD coerced Fouke into putting this lie down on paper. But this is the kind of hype that only sounds reasonable in recent decades, in light of the case appearing to be bigger than it was at the time (before Yellowbook and Tom’s site elevated it).

You are correct that Fouke’s recall in 2007 should be taken with a pinch of salt. That goes for many others who took part in those DVD special feature docs, and in the various documentaries in recent years.

I will ask one question therefore- why did Donald Fouke after traveling along Jackson Street head away from the crime scene towards Arguello Boulevard, rather than traveling towards a crime scene he was supposedly responding to. Why did an officer of the law supposedly responding to a taxicab driver being robbed and assaulted vacate his duties and totally ignore the attack on Paul Stine.

There were witnesses who saw a man matching the description given by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke running into Julius Khan playground shortly after the murder. The description is almost exactly the same. Unfortunately many like to drop this sighting of Zodiac because they don’t like the narrative of a killer who claimed he entered the park. If you dismiss this sighting because it’s not convenient, then we may as well dismiss the sighting by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke and just say Zodiac didn’t exist. The sighting of the man running into the park was reported and tallies with the timeline and Bus Bomb claims. Donald Fouke stated he last saw Zodiac turning up Maple in his November 12th 1969 memorandum. In his 2007 Zodiac documentary debacle, he stated he saw a man entering the stairwell of 3712 Jackson but never saw him reach the top of the stairs. That is because he passed the subject in "5, 10, 15 seconds tops".
Zodiac wasn’t in two places at the same time. Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac, but his performance in the 2007 documentary was less than convincing and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Sadly, if you want the truth about the events that night, then Zodiac’s account is more reliable and makes more sense than any of the investigators that night, including Chief Martin Lee.

Oh HELL!! Yall got me so indecisive on this matter! One week I feel like he hid in the park, the next week I feel like maybe he hid in the bushes at 3712 Jackson, and the next I’m thinking maybe he had his car parked on Jackson or Maple or Spruce and made a clean get away that way. One thing that did make me a bit reluctant about the car get away from Jackson or Maple or Spruce was how descriptive he was about the search. Regardless, it’s too bad we couldn’t go back and know what we know now and check w/as many cabbies as we could and see if anyone might remember giving someone a ride from that general area earlier that evening. Would’ve been worth a shot.
By the way. Ok, what’s the deal with the Presidio being a military installation? Can anyone help a little here? When I look on google map today what parts of the park were military? The buildings over in the North easterly corner seem to be old military administration and housing types. I’m assuming it no longer is. Looks like it’s complete public access now days. And I’m assuming no one really thinks he escaped on to this military installation as there would be guards and gates to access and surely the police search would have contacted such guards.

The Presidio was a fully-functioning US Army base until the early 70’s, when the federal government began converting it to a national recreation area – and ’69 was in the middle of Viet Nam.

A bit unusually, Julius Kahn playground was a San Francisco city playground that was on the grounds of the Presidio army base.

If Zodiac came down Spruce into the Presidio he would have entered Julius Kahn first, and if he continued east a quarter mile he would have been in the Presidio itself, and that area was wooded.

My guess is he hid there temporarily, and witnessed the motorcycles flooding into the Presidio and the dogs amassing in the vicinity of Julius Kahn playground.

Then he would have darted up the hill and out the Broadway gate.

Even though the Presidio was an army base there were no guards at the gates, and civilians were welcome. There were also a lot of woods, and someone could have zig zagged their way deeper into the Presidio and exited closer to the GG Bridge, but that have been more work and riskier than parking on Broadway and Lyon and getting out of there.

The Presidio was a fully-functioning US Army base until the early 70’s, when the federal government began converting it to a national recreation area – and ’69 was in the middle of Viet Nam.

A bit unusually, Julius Kahn playground was a San Francisco city playground that was on the grounds of the Presidio army base.

If Zodiac came down Spruce into the Presidio he would have entered Julius Kahn first, and if he continued east a quarter mile he would have been in the Presidio itself, and that area was wooded.

My guess is he hid there temporarily, and witnessed the motorcycles flooding into the Presidio and the dogs amassing in the vicinity of Julius Kahn playground.

Then he would have darted up the hill and out the Broadway gate.

Even though the Presidio was an army base there were no guards at the gates, and civilians were welcome. There were also a lot of woods, and someone could have zig zagged their way deeper into the Presidio and exited closer to the GG Bridge, but that have been more work and riskier than parking on Broadway and Lyon and getting out of there.

Thank you very much sir! That clears up pretty well what has been a little bit of a source of confusion for me. Now I have your theory to add to my indecisiveness. He parked somewhere on Lyon St. and watched in the woods for a few minutes and then exited the Broadway Gate. Sounds completely logical to me. You know what would be neat to know is if the dogs ever picked up any kind of trail what so ever and which way did it lead if they did? Just a general direction would be neat to know.
By the way. Can you go across the GG Bridge and sit on top of those hills? Are they restricted as far as access?

It sounds like the dogs never came as far as where he would have been hiding in the woods, east of Julius Kahn playground. I think the dogs were more concentrated between JK and the Arguello gate.

The foot route from those woods to the Broadway gate would have been pretty much pitch-black and in the trees the whole way.

I had my doubts initially that he would have driven across the Golden Gate Bridge because it would have involved stopping and paying a toll to a human, but apparently they got rid of the northbound toll a few years earlier.

And yes, you can go up in those hills. There used to be some military installations over there, including a missile tracking range, but all of that has been absorbed into a national recreation area, similar to what the Presidio is now.

(If you go you have to pick your spots though, the traffic can be brutal!)

Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac … … Zodiac’s account is more reliable and makes more sense than any of the investigators that night …

I have to disagree, Richard, that Fouke lied in his scratch (intra-departmental memo).

If you think about it, it makes no sense for him misrepresent what happened. He would need to guarantee that his partner, Zelms, would go along with the lie – a pointless and precarious conspiracy to engage in.

And, he would need to be 100% sure that not a single resident on Jackson peered through their curtains and witnessed him stopping and questioning Z. If such a witness later piped up to the press, Fouke’s paper trail could see him wind up shovelling shinola at the SFPD dog pound.

I do understand that some folks here like to imagine that SFPD coerced Fouke into putting this lie down on paper. But this is the kind of hype that only sounds reasonable in recent decades, in light of the case appearing to be bigger than it was at the time (before Yellowbook and Tom’s site elevated it).

You are correct that Fouke’s recall in 2007 should be taken with a pinch of salt. That goes for many others who took part in those DVD special feature docs, and in the various documentaries in recent years.

I will ask one question therefore- why did Donald Fouke after traveling along Jackson Street head away from the crime scene towards Arguello Boulevard, rather than traveling towards a crime scene he was supposedly responding to. Why did an officer of the law supposedly responding to a taxicab driver being robbed and assaulted vacate his duties and totally ignore the attack on Paul Stine.

I’ve heard many rumors that Eric Zelms’ widow stated that her husband told her that they did stop and speak to Zodiac briefly.
if this is true that would seal the deal as far as I’m concerned, Fouke and Zelms spoke to Z !
Can anyone confirm Zelms’ widows statement ?

We also know that Fouke gave directly contradictory statements in his 1987 and 2007 interviews about what happened that night.

She did say that Monarch and I can confirm, via her son, personally.

Okay, if humble patrolman Fouke is to be thrown under the bus, is it really okay that SFPD’s finest, Toschi and Armstrong, apparently didn’t get statements from some of the people who were on the streets while Zodiac was wandering off i.e. Fouke, Zelms and possibly other responders?

At least Narlow questioned Dennis Land at LB.

is it really okay that SFPD’s finest, Toschi and Armstrong, apparently didn’t get statements from some of the people who were on the streets while Zodiac was wandering off

Do we know they didn’t? I mean, the least amount of info concerning police reports is the Stine case, surely there’s much more in it than we have access to.

We don’t know, but it appears that way. Hence Fouke’s scratch a month later. And didn’t he say he wasn’t familiar with Toschi. And this third-hand account of Zelms saying they talked to Z – it doesn’t include the obvious addendum, "oh, but we did tell the detectives when they asked a couple of days later". And i don’t recall Pelessetti saying they came back to him for more info, specifically about seeing Z at a distance maybe and like, "who’s this dog-walker you talked to, we need to speak to him directly."

Maybe all concerned got asked something on the night of the cabbie shooting? But once it becomes known that Zodiac – "a mass murderer" – did it, I’d have thought that it would be a big deal to really go back and question the patrolmen etc. who were arriving at the scene in the vital first 5 minutes.

If i were a betting man, i’d say that if we did have access to SFPD Stine reports, then folks here would most likely have much more than Fouke’s accounts to pick apart.