Could they not simply DNA test the "4 Brown Caucasian head hairs" found on the body of Cheri jo that did not belong to her against the DNA of a relative of Sullivan and rule him in or out for good?

Yes, if they could get a hair sample from Ross’ brother.
My understanding is that mtDNA (which is the type of DNA you get from hair) is identical among siblings.
I don’t know if mtDNA can be compared from cousins or other distant relatives, I would think probably not so Ross’ brother is the
only option.

Yes Monarch you are correct. No nuclear DNA was obtained from the 4 brown hairs found in Cheri Jo Bates hand (not enough blood, scalp or skin attached). We know this thanks to the FBI reports obtained by Morf.

They were able to obtain a good and valid mtDNA sample from the hair however. Nuclear DNA can establish a person’s identity to the extent that they can say only one person in the world would match it, meaning that only one of 5 billion people would match the nuclear DNA.

With mtDNA, they can match it among siblings as long as they have the same mother, because mtDNA is transmitted maternally. With mtDNA they can only say, for example, that it is consistent with 3% of the population, 5% of the population or 2% of the population.

In other words, as long as Ross Sullivan’s brother has the same mother as Ross, if mtDNA obtained from his hair is matching they could it best say that it is consistent with the suspect hair from Cheri Jo Bates hand, which is consistent with 2% or 4% of the population, whatever the case is.

So a mtDNA match would be compelling, but not conclusive evidence. If on the other hand the sample mtDNA from Ross Sullivan’s brother does not match, that is conclusive evidence that those hairs could not have come from Ross Sullivan.

I don’t know if there’s any realistic possibility of getting Ross Sullivan’s brother to donate a sample of his hair. But there may be one way we can include or exclude Ross Sullivan as being a likely contributor for the four hairs found in Cheri Jo Bates hand.

The four hairs found in her hand were described as "brown" in color. The FBI is usually very precise in its descriptions on lab reports. The hair was not described as "sandy brown" or "light brown", just "brown". What color hair did Ross Sullivan have? I’m under the impression from photographs that perhaps it was blonde? If his hair color was in fact blonde, then it is extremely unlikely that he was the contributor of the four brown hairs found in her hand.

Though I’d still like to see an mtDNA comparison just to be 100% sure. There is some degree of subjectivity in describing hair color. And hair color can vary somewhat depending upon exposure to sunlight, age and other factors. But given the description of the hair as brown, and my impression from photographs that Ross Sullivan had blonde hair, in fact fairly light blonde hair, it would seem extremely unlikely that he is the contributor of those hairs.

Excellent points AK, but remember we only have poor quality black & white photos of Ross as a teenager in high school.
in some of the photos he looks like he has light blond hair but in other photos his hair looks darker.
I know people that had blond hair when they were in school that later turned brown as they aged into their 20’s, Ross was 26
years old when Cheri Jo was murdered, also the hairs were stuck to her hand with blood so the blood may have stained the hairs
making it look darker than they really are.

Yes Monarch you are correct. No nuclear DNA was obtained from the 4 brown hairs found in Cheri Jo Bates hand (not enough blood, scalp or skin attached). We know this thanks to the FBI reports obtained by Morf.

They were able to obtain a good and valid mtDNA sample from the hair however. Nuclear DNA can establish a person’s identity to the extent that they can say only one person in the world would match it, meaning that only one of 5 billion people would match the nuclear DNA.

With mtDNA, they can match it among siblings as long as they have the same mother, because mtDNA is transmitted maternally. With mtDNA they can only say, for example, that it is consistent with 3% of the population, 5% of the population or 2% of the population.

In other words, as long as Ross Sullivan’s brother has the same mother as Ross, if mtDNA obtained from his hair is matching they could it best say that it is consistent with the suspect hair from Cheri Jo Bates hand, which is consistent with 2% or 4% of the population, whatever the case is.

So a mtDNA match would be compelling, but not conclusive evidence. If on the other hand the sample mtDNA from Ross Sullivan’s brother does not match, that is conclusive evidence that those hairs could not have come from Ross Sullivan.

I don’t know if there’s any realistic possibility of getting Ross Sullivan’s brother to donate a sample of his hair. But there may be one way we can include or exclude Ross Sullivan as being a likely contributor for the four hairs found in Cheri Jo Bates hand.

The four hairs found in her hand were described as "brown" in color. The FBI is usually very precise in its descriptions on lab reports. The hair was not described as "sandy brown" or "light brown", just "brown". What color hair did Ross Sullivan have? I’m under the impression from photographs that perhaps it was blonde? If his hair color was in fact blonde, then it is extremely unlikely that he was the contributor of the four brown hairs found in her hand.

Though I’d still like to see an mtDNA comparison just to be 100% sure. There is some degree of subjectivity in describing hair color. And hair color can vary somewhat depending upon exposure to sunlight, age and other factors. But given the description of the hair as brown, and my impression from photographs that Ross Sullivan had blonde hair, in fact fairly light blonde hair, it would seem extremely unlikely that he is the contributor of those hairs.

Thanks! Great information. Good points as well.

Thank you very much for your response, it is very much appreciated and was incredibly helpful.

I have some FBI documents, but was not entirely certain as to how to interpret them. My copies are also blurred and difficult to read.

So, do these documents say that they tested the hair, the cigarette, and various blood samples? They basically say everything that AK explained?

These documents basically say everything that AK articulated, right?

I apologize if I am asking "stupid" or "redundant" questions, i am simply trying to correctly interpret and understand the information I have.

Thank you for you patience and help.

Yes, I gave you my interpretation of what I felt those documents stated. They also compared the mtDNA from the hairs in her hand to that of their prime suspect, the one called Barnett. The documents state it was a definitive non-match, and as far as the FBI is concerned, suspect Barnett was eliminated from being the contributor of those hairs.

I acknowledge that hair color can be somewhat subjective, and it can change depending on sunlight, age and other factors. The FBI would factor in any blood appearing on part of a hair. When they say " four brown Caucasian head hairs" I take them at their word that that is exactly what they found.

But the photos I have seen of Sullivan in high school showed him with light blonde hair. It is true that people who had blonde hair as a teenager sometimes develop darker hair when they reach their 40s or 50s. But if Sullivan had light blonde hair when he was 18, I would think he still has it when he’s 26.

That is an unbelievable assertion that Ross was properly ruled out with prints by LE. The evidence would suggest the complete opposite. His name was not in the FBI files with all the other suspects whos prints were checked. Vallejo PD also has no record of Ross ever being a suspect.

The FBI do not automatically get details about every suspect checked out by other law enforcement agencies.

Welcome to the board, Tom.

Paul & Tom: In Dave Peterson’s files, there is a letter to Bud Kelley where Peterson claims Toschi had checked Sullivan’s prints "without success", which I presume to mean it was a negative match:

Morf, did you ever ask your interviewees about Ross’ hair color? This has been eating at me for awhile now. I know that he wrote down blonde hair on his Selective Service Form but from what I can tell it appears to be darker. Maybe closer to a red or reddish brown? Here is a photo of Ross alongside short blonde-haired, John Farrow:

.

There are different shades of blond, of course. That last two show people with extremely light blond hair. Looks like Ross had sandy blond hair to me. It’s certainly not brown, imo.

It’s important to note that the favorite Riverside suspect, Bob Barnett, also has blonde hair. In an interview with Tom Voigt a few years back, retired Detective Shumway gave the reason Bob Barnett was a good suspect because he had sandy blonde hair like the ones they found. He was known to exaggerate, but I think he’d know.

Doesn’t really matter what Det. Shumway says they found, we have the FBI report which clearly says four brown hairs. The mtDNA from the hairs did not match to their suspect Barnett.

In this picture of Ross sort of crouching and looking up at the camera, his hair looks light blonde to me. I understand on his Selective Service form, either he or the draft board listed his hair color as "blonde". We could debate if Ross Sullivan’s hair is light blonde, regular blonde or sandy blonde.

In any event, as Tahoe said, it is most definitely not brown. I’d still like to see a mtDNA comparison to be 100% sure, but it seems highly unlikely, if not nearly impossible, for the light blonde haired, or regular blonde haired, Ross Sullivan to be the contributor of the brown hairs in Cheri Jo Bates hand.

I think what Doranchak posted is very important. It confirms that police did check Sullivan’s prints against the prints from the "Stine 187" (murder), result being "without success", i.e., no match.

If they checked Sullivan’s prints against the prints recovered from the Stine cab, you can be sure they also checked them against the prints recovered from Bates car.

From Doranchak: In Dave Peterson’s files, there is a letter to Bud Kelley where Peterson claims Toschi had checked Sullivan’s prints "without success", which I presume to mean it was a negative match:

you say blonde, I say red. I’ll settle for strawberry blonde!!

I hope the Bates car prints that we are assuming were checked against Sullivan’s are a heck of a lot more solid than the Stine prints! I harken back to this old thread for example: http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/mess … 1169913448

I think a huge number of people get in and out of a cab, and I’ve never been convinced that there are for sure any actual Zodiac prints in that cab.

I think it is much more likely the unidentified prints recovered from Bates car, including those from under the hood, came from the killer of Bates, who I believe the evidence shows very likely was the Zodiac Killer.

Though we don’t know for sure, it seems there was enough awareness of and interest in Sullivan as a Z suspect, that if they checked his prints against the prints recovered from the Stine cab, they would likely have done the same in regards to the Bates car and the Exorcist letter.

I think a huge number of people get in and out of a cab, and I’ve never been convinced that there are for sure any actual Zodiac prints in that cab.

I think it is much more likely the unidentified prints recovered from Bates car, including those from under the hood, came from the killer of Bates, who I believe the evidence shows very likely was the Zodiac Killer.

Though we don’t know for sure, it seems there was enough awareness of and interest in Sullivan as a Z suspect, that if they checked his prints against the prints recovered from the Stine cab, they would likely have done the same in regards to the Bates car and the Exorcist letter.

Not 100% on this so dont hang me but i think i have read somewhere that the prints from Pauls murder were left in blood. That would make the prints the killers or a 1st responders. Sort of eliminating the other hundreds of people who touched the cab..

Mr. Lowe, Graysmith wrote that one print was made in blood. That could be one more instance were Graysmith was guilty of exaggeration or falsehood. SFPD has seemed to have a lot of faith in the prints.

But a Zodiac detective from another jurisdiction told me that it’s far from certain that Zodiac left prints in the cab. I then specifically mentioned that Graysmith wrote about one print being left in blood. He didn’t specifically discount that, but he just repeated his statement to me that it was not certain that Zodiac left any prince in the cab.