Has anyone just flat out asked Ted if he is Z or if he had any connection to the case?

Has anyone just flat out asked Ted if he is Z or if he had any connection to the case?

I bumped the thread for you. Read from page one of that thread.

Doug Oswell asked him and Ted declined to provide an alibi for any Z dates.

I came across this opinion letter from Theodore R. Kaczynski extolling the merits of liberals.
________
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988 … las-l-word

Liberal Gifts
October 17, 1988|By Theodore R. Kaczynski.

LOMBARD — Isn`t it puzzling that lately the “L“ word is used so pejoratively?
That the word “liberal“ is used to evoke something bad? Here are some things that the liberals have given us: Social Security, later the Social Security COLAs, federal deposit insurance, unemployment insurance, the right to join or not to join a union, the GI Bill (giving educational opportunities to veterans), Medicare and student loans for education. By what twist of the imagination can anyone call the above bad? Let us treat the word “liberal“ with the respect it deserves.

After reading some of Teds’ letters and poetry (the one about Ellen and her derriere), I think Ted has the same sense of mid-western humor I have seen in many of the family members and friends I have known from that area and era.

This Christmas card to Melvin Belli looks almost identical to me as the other examples of his printing shown here. I wonder if Ted wrote some of these "Z" letters (while being completely innocent of any involvement in the murders)? It would be great if Wilks or someone could connect with Ted and send him copies of these writings asking him if he wrote them or what he thinks of them and the similarity to his own handwriting and printing.

It would be so interesting to know if Ted is curious about the Zodiac and has followed the case or perhaps even reads here and elsewhere about him. Since he is not a suspect by LE, just who (other than ALLEN) would he suspect out of all those named so far or would he have his own poi who has not been named?

Sorry to go ot but if LE wanted to test for Ted’s dna and has not been able to obtain it through their normal procedures, these letters would certainly have it as well as his fingerprints.

After reading some of Teds’ letters and poetry (the one about Ellen and her derriere), I think Ted has the same sense of mid-western humor I have seen in many of the family members and friends I have known from that area and era.

This Christmas card to Melvin Belli looks almost identical to me as the other examples of his printing shown here. I wonder if Ted wrote some of these "Z" letters (while being completely innocent of any involvement in the murders)? It would be great if Wilks or someone could connect with Ted and send him copies of these writings asking him if he wrote them or what he thinks of them and the similarity to his own handwriting and printing.

It would be so interesting to know if Ted is curious about the Zodiac and has followed the case or perhaps even reads here and elsewhere about him. Since he is not a suspect by LE, just who (other than ALLEN) would he suspect out of all those named so far or would he have his own poi who has not been named?

I think that Ted is going to lie and write anything that meets his needs. A lot of web postings think that the diagnosis the government gave was wrong and that it probably should have been Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I don’t think a letter is going to get Ted talking anytime soon. All the attention given to him in the news and media is just feeding into his mental illness.

(NPD) "A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy beginning by early childhood and present in a variety of contexts" (Scarf)
Characterized by an over-inflated sense of uniqueness, self importance and personal entitlement
-People with NPD feel that they are either great, powerful, and brilliant or that they are nothing

Thanks for all the information you have posted, Darla. I’ve haven’t had time to read the longer ones and am saving them for when I do but have gotten a much better idea about Ted K. than I had before.

You certainly could be right about Ted but I’m thinking he may have some interesting things to say now that he is older and has been incarcerated for some time. His take on the codes in view of his mathematical knowledge would be interesting though, don’t you think? I wonder if Ted’s views would match with any of the many elaborate theories worked out by so many others.

I really liked the letter he wrote to the student who asked his advice re. dropping out of school and the Christmas greeting to an older neighbor lady IIRC. His letter to the employer who owed him a paycheck is really kind of sweet in a way. It sounds like he was really taken advantage of by this tire salesman. I wonder if Ted ever got the paycheck?

When Ted was suffering those terrible allergies and hospitalized, that must have been a terrorizing experience for the young child. I wonder if there are any other exceptional family members who were gifted in any way and that gene was passed along to Ted.

After reading some of Teds’ letters and poetry (the one about Ellen and her derriere), I think Ted has the same sense of mid-western humor I have seen in many of the family members and friends I have known from that area and era.

This Christmas card to Melvin Belli looks almost identical to me as the other examples of his printing shown here. I wonder if Ted wrote some of these "Z" letters (while being completely innocent of any involvement in the murders)? It would be great if Wilks or someone could connect with Ted and send him copies of these writings asking him if he wrote them or what he thinks of them and the similarity to his own handwriting and printing.

It would be so interesting to know if Ted is curious about the Zodiac and has followed the case or perhaps even reads here and elsewhere about him. Since he is not a suspect by LE, just who (other than ALLEN) would he suspect out of all those named so far or would he have his own poi who has not been named?

CAPRICORN: "You certainly could be right about Ted but I’m thinking he may have some interesting things to say now that he is older and has been incarcerated for some time. His take on the codes in view of his mathematical knowledge would be interesting though, don’t you think? I wonder if Ted’s views would match with any of the many elaborate theories worked out by so many others."

AK WILKS: It is an interesting thought, if Ted or someone else wrote some of the letters but did not do the murders. But remember some letters were sent in with bits of the bloody Stine shirt. Others had details only the killer was likely to know. The handwriting on all the confirmed letters matches according to Morrill and other experts. And the writing on the car door at LB seems to match the letters as well. So I think all the major letters were done by the Zodiac and the Zodiac letter writer was the killer. Now there are other letters, like the "bleeding knife of Zodiac" and several others, that may have been done by Z or may have been fakes done by copycats.

I am planning on writing a letter to Ted soon about the case. I doubt I will get a substantive response, but who knows? Ted is only interested in letters about fighting the industrial technological system. If he was NOT the Zodiac, while he no doubt would have interesting observations about the codes and other aspects, I doubt very much he would make them. He would not do anything that would help the police or the FBI. He might look at Zodiac as a force of anarchy and chaos who struck back against the system and embarrassed the police and FBI. Ted has praised common criminals, vandals and street gangs as inarticulate and unfocused examples of action against the system that help to undermine society. So if he was NOT Zodiac I don’t think he would offer any real help. And if he WAS Zodiac, he of course is not going to do anything to help solve the codes or the case and increase the odds of him being caught! He likes being a hero to many in the anarchist, primitivist and radical environmentalist movements. I think he would fear that being exposed as Zodiac, who killed unarmed teenagers, might hurt his image as a terrorist against corporate America.

You can see what happened when Doug Oswell and another writer asked Ted about the Zodiac case here: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=236

They got no response other than being told that Ted couldn’t provide alibi evidence for any of the key dates.

I think people have in mind a Hannibal Lector scenario were Ted uses his brilliant math and code skills to solve the Zodiac case. I wish that could happen, but as I said, if Ted was not Z he still would not help the FBI catch a criminal, and if he was Z, he ain’t gonna help catch himself. Interestingly, I did once get help from a convicted criminal, James Lewis the Tylenol extortionist, in the Tylenol Murders case, which I will write about soon.

Yes Darla Jones has done a great job discovering some new evidence, info and ideas on the case!

And yes Ted’s writing looks almost identical to the size, shape, style, spacing, preciseness and feel of the Belli letter.

This writing looks particularly Zodiac like to me, compare it to the Belli letter.

Here was a chance to ask David Kaczynski about his brilliant, eccentric, loving older brother, and what the U.S. government may have done to him and with him.

Since our brief interview with David Kaczynski (July 26, 2005), we’ve looked a trace deeper into MKULTRA. Hence the footnotes and the seemingly forced images in the 10 min. video of this interview (conducted at Chautauqua Institution, Hall of Missions, Department of Religion).

————————————————-

At what point did you experience with Ted any sign of serious psychological abnormality? At what point did that appear?

David Kaczynski: That’s a long story. I remember being maybe nine or ten years old and asking my father one day, ‘Dad, what’s wrong with Ted?’ So even at a very young age I had some sense that he was different. I remember my father saying at that time saying, ‘David, you have to understand. Your brother is very, very brilliant. He doesn’t have a lot of…. a lot in common with other kids his age, but you’ll see; he’ll grow up and mature. Some day he’ll have a family of his own and he’ll find himself.’ [#1]

At one point, I remember my mother sharing with me this story of Ted being in the hospital as a tiny baby. I don’t think that story would have been developed if it wasn’t developed in order to explain something. There’s a kind of accommodation that a family makes over many, many years. You don’t think, ‘Well, that’s a mentally ill person…’ You think, ‘Well, that’s Ted. That’s the way he is.’

I think I really began to get alarmed in the 1980s when some of Ted’s letters to our parents seemed so bizarre. He’d say that they never loved him and cite evidence and seemed to ignore all the nice and loving things all their lives long and I realized at that point that he was looking at the world through a very, very different lens.

Approximately how old was he at that time?

David Kaczynski: Probably around 30 years old. Somewhere in there. Looking back…. Actually, having read some of Ted’s diaries while he was in college I think, he probably was having psychotic breaks as early as his early 20s. He believed, for instance, that he’d been visited by people in his apartment at the University of Michigan who couldn’t possibly have been there. [# 2 ] He would have delusions that other people were talking about him, kind of paranoid delusions. It’s odd because it was really at this point that his brilliance as a mathematician began to blossom. Right around this time….

We later found out that he wouldn’t go to class maybe for an entire semester but then he’d show up on the last day and hand in some piece of original research that blew the professor away and ended up being published. So in some…. because of his academic and his extraordinary success – and absence of any kind of obvious violence in him – you know, I think our family thought he was different, but not necessarily in a bad way.

The reason we pose the question is that since we last spoke with you in Dunkirk, we ran across in Dave McGowan’s book Programmed to Kill: The Politics of Serial Murder. He writes that your brother was a victim of MKULTRA at Harvard.

David Kaczynski: Yes. Something I didn’t know about at all until it was kind of discovered by his defense team [1]and then they began to question our mother about it.

Would you say what it is?

David Kaczynski: Yeah. Well, the MKULTRA program was actually a CIA covert operation within the United States where unwitting suspects [subjects] were made guinea pigs in research about psychotropic drugs, various kinds of psychological pressure. I think there’s pretty clear evidence that was a program at Harvard.

Ted was in a psychological research study run by a psychologist by the name of Henry Murray. Now there’s no clear, unequivocal link that connects that to the MKULTRA program, but it was a fairly abusive research project. It would certainly not pass ethical muster today. [#3]. 

Ted would meet once a week for a conversation with someone about philosophy with someone he thought – was led to believe – was another subject within the research project but actually was a plant. It was a graduate student, and they were actually trying to study how ‘alienated youth’ – and Ted was identified as an alienated youth at Harvard – would respond to having their philosophy of life and their values challenged. 

So for three years, beginning at the age of 17, Ted was in this study…. I’ve read some of the transcripts and they were pretty awful. I mean, they included personal attacks….

So as my brother is trying to make, you know, some kind of philosophical point, his adversary in this debate is making disparaging comments about his appearance, about his maturity, so, you know, an interesting possible connection is that had actually been in the OSS which was the forerunner of the CIA during World War II and the projects he did had to do with debriefing prisoners of war. So we wonder if he used some of the same tactics in sort of probing and poking young, unwitting college students, and don’t know if the CIA was directly involved but it’s certainly not outside the bounds of possibility. 

I don’t think that necessarily created Ted’s mental illness. It might have been a triggering factor. It might have sort of given shape to his belief that there were, you know, conspiracies against him and that, you know, there was something sinister about the technology of psychology and mind manipulation, and so forth. In a sense, he wasn’t paranoid. He was…. He was, in a sense, conspired against.

Did you ever talk to him about his experience in that ‘psychology’ program?

David Kaczynski: No. You know, Mom had remembered it because since Ted was only 17* when he went into this research project, parental consent was needed, and Mom remembered getting a form, you know, Harvard College, asking for her permission for Ted to be in this study and Mom said, ‘Gee, I thought Ted’s…. You know, he’s socially awkward, he doesn’t fit in very well. Maybe being exposed to psychologists could be very helpful to him. Well, little did she know that this study wasn’t conducted with his benefit in mind.

How knowledgeable was Ted’s defense team about MKULTRA?

David Kaczynski: The defense apparently put a lot of research into this. It was going to be at least one of their arguments for mitigation that Ted had been seriously abused in this…. this research program that might have even been funded by the federal government. It was hard to get research, hard to make the connection fully. They [Ted Kaczynski’s legal team] found that numbers of the records had actually been destroyed – not for confidentiality reasons, or something. It was destroyed because there was a congressional investigation of the MKULTRA program and the then director really, uh, in contempt of Congress, destroyed many of the records of that program. They did eventually get to look at some of Murray’s private research papers. That was where some of these transcripts were found. They also were able to track down just a couple of other participants in the study, one of which was, by the way, working at Las Alamos making big bombs. A weird irony of the whole thing.

But as far as we know – and we don’t know much – Ted was the only one who ended up with real serious problems. (6 minutes)

———————————————-

This is amazing. I just quickly searched "MKULTRA" as I want to see if I can find out which schools were involved in this and any names of participants, if possible. It looks like this will be impossible as the records were destroyed but if there is any way to at least find out which schools/institutions were involved, please let us know.

This is amazing. I just quickly searched "MKULTRA" as I want to see if I can find out which schools were involved in this and any names of participants, if possible. It looks like this will be impossible as the records were destroyed but if there is any way to at least find out which schools/institutions were involved, please let us know.

Here is the book referenced:

http://www.amazon.com/Programmed-Kill-P … 0595326404

More information:
https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve … ULTRA.html

The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over thirty universities and institutions were involved in an "extensive testing and experimentation" program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens "at all social levels, high and low, native Americans and foreign." Several of these tests involved the administration of LSD to "unwitting subjects in social situations." At least one death, that of Dr. Olson, resulted from these activities. The Agency itself acknowledged that these tests made little scientific sense. The agents doing the monitoring were not qualified scientific observers.[9]

MkUltra Involved Hospitals, Universities and Government Facilities Leaked List
NOVEMBER 10, 2012 BY LISSAKRHUMANELIFE
4
Involved Hospitals, Universities and Government Facilities

The following list is of hospitals, universities, and other facilities and organizations that were, in some way, involved in the hosting, funding, and/or enactment of government-sanctioned human experimentation in the past. This list is not intended to implicate any organizations or individuals connected to them, who neither condoned nor participated in harmful human research.

http://216.104.189.209/MKULTRA%20Research.htm

Aero Medical Laboratory, Directorate of Research, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
Air Force 657 1st Aeromedical Research Laboratory
Allan Memorial Institute, Canada
American Psychological Association
Boston University School of Medicine, Massachusetts
Army Chemical Corps
Canada’s Defense Research Board
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
Children’s International Summer Villages, Inc., Maine
Clifton Hospital, York, England
Columbia University
Commission on Viral Infections, Armed Forces Epidemiological Board,
Office of the Surgeon General
Cornell University, Cornell Medical Human Ecology Program
Creedmore State Hospital, Children’s Unit, Queen’s Village, New York
Dugway Proving Ground, Utah
Edgeware Arsenal
Edgewood Arsenal, Edgewood, Maryland
Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia
Florida State University
Fort Benning, Georgia
Fort Sam Houston
Georgetown University Hospital, Washington DC
George Washington University
Geschickter Foundation
Geschickter Fund for Medical Research
Hanford Nuclear Facility, Richmond, Washington
Harvard Medical School, Massachusetts
Hollywood Hospital, Vancouver, Canada
House of the Good Shepherd, New York
Human Ecology Foundation
Ionia State Hospital
Johns Hopkins University
Leler University of Georgia
Los Alamos
Louisiana State Penitentiary
Marlborough day hospital, Wiltshire, England
Massachusetts General Hospital
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
McGill University, Department of Psychiatry, Canada
J. P. Morgan and Co., Inc.
Montana State University
Montreal Neurological Institute, Canada
NASA
New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute, Bureau of Neurology and Psychiatry
New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute, Clinical Investigative Unit of the Bureau of Research
New Jersey Reformatory at Bordentown
New York State Department of Mental Hygiene
New York State Psychiatric Institute
New York University, New York
New York University School of Medicine Committee on Human Experimentation
Oak Ridge Institute of Nuclear Studies
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Oak Ridge, Tennessee Office of Naval Research
Ohio State Penitentiary at Columbus
Penetang Psychiatric Hospital, Oak Ridge Division, Penetanguishene, Ontario, Canada
Powick Hospital, Malvern, Worcestershire, England Public Health Service
Rand Corporation
Roffey Park, Lincolnshire, England
Rome State School, Rome, New York
Scottish Rite Foundation
Scottish Rite Foundation Schizophrenia Research Foundation
Scottish Rite Research Committee
Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology
Seventh Day Adventist Church
Stanford Research Institute (SRI)
Stanford University
St. John’s Orphan Asylum, New York
Texas Research Institute of Mental Sciences (TRIMS), Houston, Texas
Tulane University, New Orleans, Louisiana
UCLA Violence Project
University of Denver, Colorado
University of Illinois
University of Indiana
University of Maryland
University of Minnesota, Department of Psychiatry
University of Oklahoma, Department of Psychiatry
University of Pennsylvania
University of Rochester, New York
University of Texas
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Army
U.S. Army Chemical Research and Development Laboratory, Edgeware Arsenal
U.S. Army Medical Research and Development Command
U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, Fort Detrick, Fredrick, Maryland
U.S. Army Special Operations Division, Fort Detrick, Maryland
U.S. Department of Defense
U.S. Department of Energy
U.S. Federal Penitentiary, Atlanta, Georgia
U.S. Navy
Utica Community Chest, Utica, New York
Vacaville State Prison
Vanderbilt University, Tennessee
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
Wayne State University College of Medicine, Lafayette Clinic, Detroit, Michigan
Willowbrook State School, New York
Worcester Foundation for Experimental Biology, Shrewsbury, Massachusetts
Worcester State Hospital
Yale University

Also:
[page 19] University of California at Berkeley
[page 58] Sandoz, Swiss pharmaceutical firm, source for CIA LSD and for Prozac
[page 60] City College of New York
[page 63] Boston Psychopathic Hospital (Dr. Robert Hyde)
[page 63] Mt. Sinai Hospital NY (Dr. Harold Abramson)
[page 63] Columbia University NY
[page 63] University of Illinois Medical School (Carl Pfeiffer)
[page 63] NIMH-sponsored Addiction Researh Center, Lexington KY
[page 63] University of Rochester NY (Harold Hodge)
[page 63] University of Oklahoma (Dr. Louis Jolyon-West)
[page 63] Josia Macy, Jr. Foundation
[page 63] Geschickter Fund for Medical Research, Washington DC
[page 72] Missouri Institute of Psychiatry
[page 72] Harvard University (Henry Beecher)
[page 72] Massachusetts General Hospital
[page 72] University of Maryland Medical School
[page 72] Baylor University (Neil Burch)
[page 72] New York State Psychiatric Institute (Paul Hoch and James Cattell) [page 72] University of Washington (James Dille)
[page 83] University of Wisconsin (Frank Olson)
[page 118] University of Delaware
[page 129] Veterans Administration Hospital, Palo Alto CA
[page 141] Rockefeller Foundation
[page 142] Allan Memorial Institute – McGill U., Montreal
[page 151] National Institutes of Health, Washington DC
[page 159] Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology
[page 164] University of Nijmegen, Netherlands
[page 165] Ionia State Hospital MI
[page 170] University of London
[page 199] University of Minnesota (Alden Sears)
[page 212] University of Houston TX
[page 215] California [Prison] Medical Facility, Vacaville
[page 215] Emory University
[page 216] Bordentown NJ Reformatory

and Lincoln Technical Institute, East Windsor CT

Holmesburg Prison, Holmesburg, PA

Karen Coleman Wiltshire

Karen Coleman Wiltshire–
John Hopkins Harriet Lane Home for Invalid Children-1961 through 1970

UCLA

California [Prison] Medical Facility, Vacaville
This is right next to Travis Air Force Base. (That is one of the military bases, McClellan AFB is the other, that LE was convinced that EAR/ONS must be stationed. Also, it is really near Vallejo.

Much of the web literature talks about how Ted got abused at Harvard, but from what I have read, Ted voluntarily stayed in the study for three years. There was never an indication from Ted that these did any lasting damage. He talked about his Harvard years in the autobiography and this portion does not mention the experiments at all. If was so terrible, he might have mentioned it early on.Plus, he was writing to himself, I doubt he would leave out something so traumatizing as that.

"At age 16, in Fall of 1958, I went to Harvard. I had had a particular enthusiasm for going there, but once I got there it was a tremendous thing for me. I got something that I had been needing all along without knowing it, mainly, hard work requiring self discipline and strenuous (??) of my abilities. I threw myself into this with great enthusiasm. Not that it was fun, you understand – It was under tremendous pressure and tension. But I thrived on it. I spend most of my time studying, and almost no time on recreation. I forced myself to keep studying long after I should have gone to sleep. I considered myself negligent if I went to bed before 2 AM, and I often stayed up until 3.
I would get by for a month on 6 hours of sleep a night, then overcome by sleepiness, I would flop down and sleep for, maybe, 10 solid hours. I never felt homesick at all. Feeling the strength of my own will, I became enthusiastic about will power. Besides the original physical training sessions, I began doing push ups and other exercises on my own.
Unlike my high school math courses, the calculus courses I took at Harvard paid a good deal of attention to the fine points of the logic underlying calculus. I learned a good deal about (?) thinking in general from these courses, and I became enthusiastic about careful analytic thinking. In high school, getting an A in a course didn’t mean much to me. It was just a matter of grinding out all the busy work. At Harvard, I really has to (?) myself to get an A and that grade gave me a real sense of achievement. There was an atmosphere of excellence at Harvard. Of Course, I had no respect…"

I think that he mentions the experiments here, "Besides the original physical training sessions,". Doesn’t that sound out of place? To me, it sounds like his sessions involve extreme physical exercise.

"I began doing push ups and other exercises on my own." As opposed to not on my own? I don’t think he did any sports in college so he must be referring to these sessions.

Is it possible that Ted actually worked for the CIA long after leaving Harvard? I read the thread and articles about the Judi Bari bombing in Oakland in 1990. That really looks like a Unabomber attack. Apparently, the FBI initially blamed the victims and said that a bomb they were building exploded as they were transporting it. (It was under her car seat. As a side note: That would be a terrible place to put a live bomb to drive it to it’s final location)

Then after they arrested TK they found something that made the FBI contact EarthFirst and tell them they thought that the Unabomber was connected to the 1990 bombing. Earthfirst thought that they were linking the Unabomber to their organization and did not understand that they were saying Ted did it. Judi was not killed in the bombing, but died a few years later 1997 from cancer.

I am going to assume that TK knew who Judi was (and there is some evidence to suggest that Ted was in Oakland at the time of the bombing). There is speculation in the articles that Ted was upset that Judi was having EarthFirst go nonviolent. However, another website claims that it was a hit, and that after Harvard, Ted never lost contact with the CIA and may have been an assassin for them! It’s pretty far fetched, considering how much TK hates LE. The author of the article explains that the Montana hermit thing was just an "act" and he justifies this statement with the evidence that the bus driver from Lincoln to Helena said that when Ted went to the hotel in Helena, before his "missions" in other states, he brought a suit and dress pants. Apparently he cleaned up at the hotel before traveling to Sacramento and Utah.

I have seen this theory that TK was a gov agent and its a nonstarter.

Ted had a ball trigger in his cabin. Same type as in Bari bombing. I did research on the Bari case with Ted as a suspect. I will post it in a thread. It may also be related to the Vance case which I am taking a new look at very seriously.

Ted hated Bari who he said was "emasculating" the radical environmental movement.

if there is any truth to TK emplyeed by the cia than this is lights out for TK going forward..no way will the fbi ever investigate him,,TK may sqeal and we cant risk having him expose us..lets just let him sit in jail and drop any nonsense about him being the Z..