Welsh Chappie, Subject: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:13 am
The above two composites are of the same man, from the same night, based on the same mans description. That man being, Officer Don Fouke.
While the above two composites look similar, would anyone agree that the two composites seem years apart in age range? To me the first looks like a man aged 40-45 (As Fouke always maintained the man he saw was aged in that area). The other, a composite from the same night, and i think its safe to say, the same man, looks like a man aged between 25-35.
Do people agree, or is it just me?
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:53 am
I agree, they do look like they could be of different age. But the problem for me is,I cant put an age to either sketch like I could with a real photo of a person. Personally,I think they should have made that sketch a 3 part sketch,adding this 3rd sketch you have provided which is not widely found on the net
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:56 am
Can anybody remove the glasses from this sketch without messing the face up too much? Same goes for the wanted poster sketches. I think people are always looking for a guy with glasses,but I for one want to see what he looks like without glasses…Maybe a job for TRAV??
patinky, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:57 am
It’s just you, Chappie. 
They look in the early 40s range to me. The most noticeable difference I see is the first one has a much longer face.
No way to be had do either sketches look like the dark-haired, broad-faced Z composite.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:02 am
And in no way do they look like the Berryessa sketch
The guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, was wearing very similar clothes to Z,and in same general area at the same time, and was acting weird. Good chance he was Z,and if so, their description would seem to be better then the SFPD one, since the girls observed him for a while in daylight and from pretty close.
Maybe Z was a blend of both sketches?
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:04 am
It’s just you, Chappie.
They look in the early 40s range to me. The most noticeable difference I see is the first one has a much longer face.
No way to be had do either sketches look like the dark-haired, broad-faced Z composite.
I disagree, i think the top sketck looks older by around 10 years. But, thats just my opinion 
Morph, i can’t remove the glasses but i’m sure theres a way and someone more experienced than me with computer special effex etc would know how to do it.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:06 am
It’s just you, Chappie.
They look in the early 40s range to me. The most noticeable difference I see is the first one has a much longer face.
No way to be had do either sketches look like the dark-haired, broad-faced Z composite.
I disagree, i think the top sketck looks older by around 10 years. But, thats just my opinion
Morph, i can’t remove the glasses but i’m sure theres a way and someone more experienced than me with computer special effex etc would know how to do it.
The one you think looks older,looks like a leaner thinner guy in good physical shape. The one that we see more often looks like he’s more average
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:10 am
And in no way do they look like the Berryessa sketch
The guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, was wearing very similar clothes to Z,and in same general area at the same time, and was acting weird. Good chance he was Z,and if so, their description would seem to be better then the SFPD one, since the girls observed him for a while in daylight and from pretty close.
I agree Morph, but many would argue that that isn’t the Zodiac, and its simply a man seen around LB that day before the attack. I believe it is him, but i also believe that for the Presidio Heights attack he would have gone to great lengths to change his appearence because he knew he’d be walking down a public, lit road in his escape and therefor would be a good chance he may have been spotted. Maybe he’d changed his appearence that well that he wanted to be seen leaving the scene. He said he looks nothing like the composite in real life, so maybe he went back to looking like the above composite while all were looking for a man who looked like the wanted posted? Who knows.
patinky, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:12 am
Here’s a quickie. I think if you click it, it will enlarge. I’m hurrying out the door. See you all on Monday!
[img]
[/img]
patinky, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:14 am
Thanks for the Berryessa shot Morf. That’s the one I was referring to as being the dark-haired, broad-faced guy.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:18 am
Here’s a quickie. I think if you click it, it will enlarge. I’m hurrying out the door. See you all on Monday!
[img]
Patinky…..I’m impressed. And Ty for doing it
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:23 am
And in no way do they look like the Berryessa sketch
The guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, was wearing very similar clothes to Z,and in same general area at the same time, and was acting weird. Good chance he was Z,and if so, their description would seem to be better then the SFPD one, since the girls observed him for a while in daylight and from pretty close.
I agree Morph, but many would argue that that isn’t the Zodiac, and its simply a man seen around LB that day before the attack. I believe it is him, but i also believe that for the Presidio Heights attack he would have gone to great lengths to change his appearence because he knew he’d be walking down a public, lit road in his escape and therefor would be a good chance he may have been spotted. Maybe he’d changed his appearence that well that he wanted to be seen leaving the scene. He said he looks nothing like the composite in real life, so maybe he went back to looking like the above composite while all were looking for a man who looked like the wanted posted? Who knows.
He wasnt seen the day before, he was the seen the DAY OF THE ATTACK, shortly before the attack
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:26 am
Here’s a quickie. I think if you click it, it will enlarge. I’m hurrying out the door. See you all on Monday!
[img]
You made that as a thumbnail,can you make it a bigger pic?
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:33 am
And in no way do they look like the Berryessa sketch
The guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, was wearing very similar clothes to Z,and in same general area at the same time, and was acting weird. Good chance he was Z,and if so, their description would seem to be better then the SFPD one, since the girls observed him for a while in daylight and from pretty close.
I agree Morph, but many would argue that that isn’t the Zodiac, and its simply a man seen around LB that day before the attack. I believe it is him, but i also believe that for the Presidio Heights attack he would have gone to great lengths to change his appearence because he knew he’d be walking down a public, lit road in his escape and therefor would be a good chance he may have been spotted. Maybe he’d changed his appearence that well that he wanted to be seen leaving the scene. He said he looks nothing like the composite in real life, so maybe he went back to looking like the above composite while all were looking for a man who looked like the wanted posted? Who knows.
He wasnt seen the day before, he was the seen the DAY OF THE ATTACK, shortly before the attack
Morph, thats what i said lol. Read it again, and you’ll see i said ‘a man seen around LB that day, before the attack. (meaning seen around LB that day before the attack took place. Sorry, i didn’t insert a commer after the ‘that day’ part of the sentence….My bad)
doranchak, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:09 am
Embedded enlarged version:
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:15 am
Thanks Dave, they should have provided these sketches with both glasses on and off.
doranchak, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:19 am
Animated flipbook version:
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:26 am
Dave,I like that flipbook version,pretty cool
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:34 am
I’d say the suspect looks fairly thin faced in both composite drawings. In both, his face appears to be a fairly long and slim face, with protruding cheek bones a possibility. I agree with Morph, whichever of the two drawings you compare to the Berryessa attacker sketch, they look nothing alike. And leaving alone the Berryessa Composite, Mike Mageau said that the most prominent feature he remembers about the man who attacked him was his big head, and fairly round, chubby face. Again, this description does not seem to be consistent with any of the above two sketches.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:27 pm
Why are people, over and over again, using the 1st provided Oct 11, 1969 Zodiac sketch when there actually is a 2nd one avaible, which was actually emproved by the Stine murder witnesses, to make a sketch that was more accurate???
I just don´t understand that at all!
Here is the emproved 2nd Zodiac sketch published Oct 18, 1969, and beside it the alleged Foulke sketch.
IMO they seem to be very much alike and aprox the same age, I would say in his 40s.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:32 pm
Fouke said that Zodiac’s jaw was ‘full and rounded’. The Presidio Heights sketch is therefore wrong. It needs to be redrawn with a jaw thickness/shape similar to that of the Napa sketch.
Like this:
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:38 pm
I thought i’d used the 2nd ‘ammended’ sketch when i published the two. Sorry, my mistake. But in any case, the updated ‘2nd’ sketch wasn’t by one of the teen witnesses at the house (the first one i published was the one based on their description), the second one was ‘ammended’ and updated based on Don Foukes describing the man as ‘older and heavier’ looking than he appeared in the first sketch. They then released the second one (that you have provided). But to me, the difference between the first sketch, and second, is hardly noticable. The new sketch i have added here at the topof this thread, is based on Foukes description alone, and not a combination of his and the teens description.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:39 pm
That’s not correct, Chappie. Neither sketch was produced using input from Fouke.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:42 pm
That’s not correct, Chappie. Neither sketch was produced using input from Fouke.
Yes it was, thats why the 2nd one was created because he saw the first one and was asked ‘does that look like the man you saw?" And he said yes, but the man i saw was ‘older and heavier’, and then based on that, it was updated and the 2nd sketch was released. The first sketch was based on the teens description together, why would they need to ammend it when they all agreed on the first one ?
That is what i have read anyway as to how the second sketch came about.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:48 pm
Both sketches were based on the Robbins kids’ input. They did not agree with the first sketch once they took a look at it. Fouke had nothing to do with the sketches whatsoever.
Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:51 pm
Fouke said that Zodiac’s jaw was ‘full and rounded’. The Presidio Heights sketch is therefore wrong. It needs to be redrawn with a jaw thickness/shape similar to that of the Napa sketch.
Like this:
Kathleen Johns had recognized the sketch, didn’t she? So even if made by an artist, it should be somehow fitting..
QT
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:53 pm
Ok i’ll accept that what you say is correct. But i did read an account before that claimed the 2nd sketch was created with the assistance of Fouke. If that info i read was incorrect, then i apologize for my mistake.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:57 pm
Kathleen Johns had recognized the sketch, didn’t she? So even if made by an artist, it should be somehow fitting..
QT
Well apparantly she did see the sketch on the wall in the police station and shouted words to the effect of ‘Thats him, thats the man who abducted me’. But she then picked out Lawrence Kane, who doesn’t really resemble the Zodiac wanted poster…well, all bar one photo of him that i’ll post below for you to make up your own minds…
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:58 pm
It’s all good, Chappie. Take a gander at this interview with Fouke, done by our very own mike_r:
http://www.mikerodelli.com/1interview.htm l”> http://web.archive.org/web/200605041718 … rview.html
You’ll see the part where Fouke empathetically denies having anything to do with the sketch.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:38 pm
Fouke said that Zodiac’s jaw was ‘full and rounded’. The Presidio Heights sketch is therefore wrong. It needs to be redrawn with a jaw thickness/shape similar to that of the Napa sketch.
Do you have a link to the origin/souce of that info, please?
And since you seem to know that the what I call the "alleged Fouke Zodiac sketch" was NOT based on Fouke’s description, do you know how this sketch came about and by who etc?
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:40 pm
It’s all good, Chappie. Take a gander at this interview with Fouke, done by our very own mike_r:
http://www.mikerodelli.com/1interview.htm l”> http://web.archive.org/web/200605041718 … rview.html
You’ll see the part where Fouke empathetically denies having anything to do with the sketch.
Just becuase Fulke denied that does’nt mean it is the truth IMHO, there are actually several things that Fouke has stated that seem not to add up, and that has been discussed for years.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:52 pm
It’s all good, Chappie. Take a gander at this interview with Fouke, done by our very own mike_r:
http://www.mikerodelli.com/1interview.htm l”> http://web.archive.org/web/200605041718 … rview.html
You’ll see the part where Fouke empathetically denies having anything to do with the sketch.
Just becuase Fulke denied that does’nt mean it is the truth IMHO, there are actually several things that Fouke has stated that seem not to add up, and that has been discussed for years.
Very true, and i am aware of the questions that are still unanswered regarding Fouke, the main one being, did he or didn’t he stop and speak to Z on Jackson st.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:01 pm
Theforeigner: Were you under the impression, like myself, that the second ‘Ammended’ sketch was based on Foukes comments that the suspect was older and heavier?
I mean it certainlly makes sense to me that they would ammend it based on something a police officer said was not correct with it. After all, a SFPD officer is a trained observer and while this doesn’t really mean anything to me (I don’t conform to the idea that Police Officer are more credible and more likely to be accurate due to their training), it does tend to be the view taken by the authorities.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:02 pm
Fouke said that Zodiac’s jaw was ‘full and rounded’. The Presidio Heights sketch is therefore wrong. It needs to be redrawn with a jaw thickness/shape similar to that of the Napa sketch.
Do you have a link to the origin/souce of that info, please?
And since you seem to know that the what I call the "alleged Fouke Zodiac sketch" was NOT based on Fouke’s description, do you know how this sketch came about and by who etc?
Hi foreigner, here is a link:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/KaneReport13.html
Both the sketches were based on the Robbins kids’ input. Nobody asked Fouke for his opinion.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:06 pm
That was my point and reason for posting Kane picture earlier. I mean comparing the composite of Foukes and Kanes pic, what do you think?
Apparantly that pic of Kane is the only known pic of him wearing glasses as apparantly he hated being photographed wearing his specs.
Drew, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:14 pm
That first drawing of Zodiac done with input by the Stine eyewitnesses reminds me of Gyke’s 1965 booking photo. Might be an even better match if the hair is darkened.
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:25 pm
I thought I would add a little color to his face to see what he might look like.
Drew, Subject: Re: Age difference? Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:36 pm
Nice work, Queen. If it’s not too much trouble, could you apply the same treatment to the other composite above that Welsh Chappie posted and also blacken the frames on the glasses?
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:15 am
If Stine did pick Z up off the street (Z hailed the cab) then i’m surpprised nobody witnessed him get in. They saw him get out on the street.
Due to Z’s escape being on foot, i think he must have had one of two escape options. Either he had his car somewhere fairly close (within a mile of W’ton & Cherry/W’ton Mple, or, he had a house he could escape into somewhere fairly close by. Serial killers won’t normally vebture out of an area of comfort.
For the past week or so i keep thinking about Chief of Inspectors, Lee Marvin’s comments "He’s a liar, he wasn’t in the park when we were searching it. We had the area lit with seach lights, 7 police dogs loose searching, and a lot of police searching under every bush & behind every tree….A mouse couldn’t have escaped our attention"
I’m starting to wonder weather he was in one of the houses, or at least the back garden of one of them. He could see the two sets of parking, the motorcycyles, and the police dogs. If he could see them, then obviously tey could have seen him, and if he was in that park, would have surely been spotted.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:30 am
I’m starting to wonder weather he was in one of the houses, or at least the back garden of one of them. He could see the two sets of parking, the motorcycyles, and the police dogs. If he could see them, then obviously tey could have seen him, and if he was in that park, would have surely been spotted.
I’ve been pondering Zodiac’s little story about being in the park. One thing that sticks out at me, regardless if he was telling the truth or not, is that everything he describes involves listening and sound. If we do take him at face value then it reads to me like he was in hiding but couldn’t really or actually see anything.
Thought I should point that out as people quite often seem to speculate on where he might have been based on what he described seeing. He didn’t describe seeing anything. He described what he could hear.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:36 am
I’m starting to wonder weather he was in one of the houses, or at least the back garden of one of them. He could see the two sets of parking, the motorcycyles, and the police dogs. If he could see them, then obviously tey could have seen him, and if he was in that park, would have surely been spotted.
I’ve been pondering Zodiac’s little story about being in the park. One thing that sticks out at me, regardless if he was telling the truth or not, is that everything he describes involves listening and sound. If we do take him at face value then it reads to me like he was in hiding but couldn’t really or actually see anything.
Thought I should point that out as people quite often seem to speculate on where he might have been based on what he described seeing. He didn’t describe seeing anything. He described what he could hear.
"+ there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart".
Zodiac couldn’t have have known that the cars were parked on the street that runs alongside the presidio, 2 sets about 10 mins apart, unless he actually saw them.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:48 am
It actually says ‘barking’ and was referring to the dogs, obviously.
"The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me +they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of barking about 10 mins apart…"
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:48 am
Maybe he meant "barking".
Edit—-jinx.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:50 am
Maybe he meant "barking".
Edit—-jinx.
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:57 am
Nice work, Queen. If it’s not too much trouble, could you apply the same treatment to the other composite above that Welsh Chappie posted and also blacken the frames on the glasses?
I forgot to mention the fact that the image I used was the top image. I think the image may have just gotten skewed at some point.
This was the 1st image he posted. Notice the proportions of the head are not normal. I believe this is due to the image being accidentally modified rather than the actual sketch depicting someone with a jelly bean shaped head.
I adjusted it to the following:
If you think I took too much artistic license, I can change it back.
I haven’t got the glasses just right yet, but here is a general idea of the image with frames darkened.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:01 am
Looking good QoC. I would agree the orig image does look horizontally compressed.
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:04 am
Thanks for the compliment!
Here is the top image unmodified in dimensions with some color.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:10 am
Here is the top image unmodified in dimensions with some color.
That is my old English teacher, Mr Willis! Arrest that man! Lol
No but serious, nice job!
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:02 am
And in no way do they look like the Berryessa sketch
The guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, was wearing very similar clothes to Z,and in same general area at the same time, and was acting weird. Good chance he was Z,and if so, their description would seem to be better then the SFPD one, since the girls observed him for a while in daylight and from pretty close.
Maybe Z was a blend of both sketches?
You guys did some great work making those sketches look human by adding some color to the face,can anybody add some color to these Lake Berryessa sketches…pretty please
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:16 am
And in no way do they look like the Berryessa sketch
The guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, was wearing very similar clothes to Z,and in same general area at the same time, and was acting weird. Good chance he was Z,and if so, their description would seem to be better then the SFPD one, since the girls observed him for a while in daylight and from pretty close.
Maybe Z was a blend of both sketches?
Now this suspect composite sketch always reminded me of Citizen Kane (Lawrence of course lol)
There is some man that i’ve noticed who has made a point of commenting on site after site & page after page to tell the same story. He always recalls how he and his brother (i’m pretty sure he said it was his brother he was fishing with, but it may have been another relative) were fishing at Berryessa on Sept 27, 1969 during the day and at one point in the later afternoon, his brother said he was going to go back up to the car to get more equiptment. Minutes later, the lone brother is fishing when he hears movement behind him. Thinking his brother has returned, he turns to speak to him, and is confronted by a man standing at a fairly close distance staring at him. No sooner had the man appeared, he noticed the second brother walking back down the hillside and quickly walked away. He mentioned the strange man to his brother and they said no more about it after a few minutes of discussion, and packed up to leave sortly there-after. The brothers were fishing on the island next to where Bryan and Cecilia would shortly take up residence on.
The young fisherman learned of the attack the next day on the local news, and though he may have had a lucky escape as he was only there himself an hour or so before the murder took place.
Over the years he thought little of it, and then one day he was sitting with a friend at the coputer who was looking up the Zodiac & Berryessa case. He said hi’s blood ran cold and his hair stood on end as he watced the friend flick through the ‘Zodiac suspect page’. He says, and is absolutely adamant about this, that when the picture came on screen of Lawrence Kane, he instantly recognised him as the man who’d approached, then stared at him, at Berryessa many years before.
This guy’s account i have read on several Zodiac sites. He seems to go to great measures to get his story acorss and out there and it’s always the same account each time, no discrepancies in the account he writes on different sites. He strikes me as someone frustrated about having witnessed Kane at Berryessa and wanting people to know it and listen.
I don’t know the guy, but he just seems genuine to me (I know i know, you’ll say my judgement is clouded because i already suspect Kane to be Zodiac, but i really would take notice if he said he saw Ted K, Art Allen or anyone else that day because he comes across ac credible. It doesn’t seem logial to go out of your own way to post and repost and then repost your story over and over, if your making it up.
If the guy is telling the truth, and he did, to the best of his knowledge and recollection, see Kane at Berryessa and hour or so before Zodiac’s attack, then that isn’t just significant, it implicates him because no other suspect has ever been able to be place at a crime scene within an hour of the attack to my knowledge.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:20 am
Too bad this guy didnt take his story to the police,or if he did, then it’s not in any reports. I have a contact in NAPA, and could ask if there is any truth to this.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:27 am
Too bad this guy didnt take his story to the police,or if he did, then it’s not in any reports. I have a contact in NAPA, and could ask if there is any truth to this.
Please do Morph. I don’t know if he claims to have spoken with Police or not, so it would be good to ask your contact if he could varify this man claim. I’ll have a look around te sites now see if i can locate one of his posts and username. He’s posted on several so i’m bound to be able to find him.
If he was interviewed back in 69 about the man he saw, then it will probaly be logged as a suspicious man and nothing more as according to his claim, he didn’t know the man was Kane (Obviously) untill years and years later when he saw his photo on the internet.
But Yes if you could Morph, that would be great.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:39 am
Embedded enlarged version:
I am liking this alternate sketch of Z with the glasses removed, more ane more when compared to James Owen.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:53 am
I’ve always tended to believe this sketch was more accurate than the wanted poster because Fouke always said the man he saw was aged somewhere between 40-45 and neither of the wanted sketches ever struck me as a man of that age. Fouke also would have got a clear look at him even if he really did only slowly drive past. If he spoke with him as many believe, myself included, then he would have had face to face direct contact, looking him square in the eye.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:45 am
Thanks for the compliment!
Here is the top image unmodified in dimensions with some color.
Queen that is a very good job. When you have some spare time, could you make the frame of his specs black? He was usually described as wearing black horn rimmed glasses?
Thanks.
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:38 pm
Just in case you are curious, here is what he would look like with lighter colored eyes and a reddish tint to his hair.
Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:44 pm
Hm…
(thanks to ZKF)
There actually are differences (although the scratches/acne marks are not explained yet..):
– Glasses
– ‘V’ style front hairline (‘widow’s peak’)
both is missing..not much, I’d say.
Of course I couldn’t resist to apply my excellent graphic skills:
QT
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:07 pm
Here you go Chappie. A bit rough, but you get the idea.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:15 pm
How about a side by side lineup of all these different looks, and can somebody add a ‘red tint’ to one? Also, can somebody add color to the face of the guy in teh Berryessa sketches?
Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:16 pm
Here you go Chappie. A bit rough, but you get the idea.
Nice
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:18 pm
I’ve always tended to believe this sketch was more accurate than the wanted poster because Fouke always said the man he saw was aged somewhere between 40-45 and neither of the wanted sketches ever struck me as a man of that age. Fouke also would have got a clear look at him even if he really did only slowly drive past. If he spoke with him as many believe, myself included, then he would have had face to face direct contact, looking him square in the eye.
Fouke stated between 35-45. Medium-heavy build – barrel chested.
The composite has always bugged me for that reason. That composite needs to be a bit more of a meat-neck I think. The composite looks like a sickly, skinny man.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:28 pm
I am not sure how reliable Fouke’s statements are. It was night, he was driving, and saw a guy walking who didn’t look anything like the description of the guy he was looking for, a black man. While I think Fouke got a general look at him, not sure how close it was or about the detail. Also, I don’t want to say that I don’t trust him,but, he suddenly claims in his 2007 interview for Fincher’s DVD that z walked up some steps to a home, but he never saw fit to include that in his original memo or tell the Detectives. Sorry, that makes him less than reliable in my eyes.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:51 pm
I agre morf, but his general body build matches what Mike M. described.
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:03 pm
How about a side by side lineup of all these different looks, and can somebody add a ‘red tint’ to one? Also, can somebody add color to the face of the guy in teh Berryessa sketches?
L
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:26 pm
Was watching a documentary on Netflix last night called Imposter where a guy from Spain pretend to be a missing boy from Texas. He fooled the boys family and Le and etc but a private detective noticed when seeing the man that his ears didn’t match previous pictures of the boy. He went on to say ear identification is close to fingerprints. Good movie by the way and my point is maybe we should be looking to the ears of the sketches compared to the suspects ears. Obvious can’t go into great detail because we are comparing real pictures to just a sketch but just thought.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:41 pm
From what I previous posted this may help more to rule out as suspect if the ears don’t look like a match. Also would be interesting to see if all the sketches ears look similar.
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:06 pm
And in no way do they look like the Berryessa sketch
The guy at Berryessa seen by the girls, was wearing very similar clothes to Z,and in same general area at the same time, and was acting weird. Good chance he was Z,and if so, their description would seem to be better then the SFPD one, since the girls observed him for a while in daylight and from pretty close.
Maybe Z was a blend of both sketches?
I will put together an image which has as many possibilites and variations I can come up with. This one was not the best sketch to work with but here it is.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:50 pm
Thanks, any way to lighten his skin color? He looks Hispanic now
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:29 pm
Thanks, any way to lighten his skin color? He looks Hispanic now
Ha ha….ok
QueenOfClews, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:03 pm
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:52 am
Fouke stated between 35-45. Medium-heavy build – barrel chested.
The composite has always bugged me for that reason. That composite needs to be a bit more of a meat-neck I think. The composite looks like a sickly, skinny man.
+1. Give it enough jowl to be as thick-jawed as the Berryessa composite, and then we’re getting somewhere. Fouke said he that had a full, rounded jaw. Mike Mageau said that he had a round face. The Robbins kids flubbed, there’s no question about that.
Also… comparing Joe Stine’s picture to the Zodiac composite? Really?
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:13 am
Here you go Chappie. A bit rough, but you get the idea.
Not rough at all Queen, that’s a fantastic job you have done there. Thank you
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:31 am
Fouke stated between 35-45. Medium-heavy build – barrel chested.
The composite has always bugged me for that reason. That composite needs to be a bit more of a meat-neck I think. The composite looks like a sickly, skinny man.
+1. Give it enough jowl to be as thick-jawed as the Berryessa composite, and then we’re getting somewhere. Fouke said he that had a full, rounded jaw. Mike Mageau said that he had a round face. The Robbins kids flubbed, there’s no question about that.
Also… comparing Joe Stine’s picture to the Zodiac composite? Really?
I agree, if there is a way to widen the face of the sketch a bit,that would be awesome. Also,and I know Trav can do this,anyway to add black horned rim glasses to the Berryessa sketch? THANKS IN ADVANCE
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:59 am
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:40 am
Now that’s more like it.
Trav, you think you could give the Berryessa composite a crew cut?
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:07 am
Now that’s more like it.
Trav, you think you could give the Berryessa composite a crew cut?
Great job, thanks to all you tech savy people that do this stuff
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:36 am
soccer, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:51 am
I am curious about the zodiac killer sketch displayed at Sleman.com
it is a not so good looking cousin of the main composite and is a little more close to what my POI might have looked like 43+ years ago.
The postage stamp size drawing is hard to tell but it seems to have the same artists signature as the main composites
Drew, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:13 pm
Nice work, traveller. Interesting how those mods seem to make it fall into place with who the kids and Fouke saw.
soccer, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:28 pm
Congratulations you have just proved it might be John Lennon
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:35 pm
John Lennon didn’t weigh 200 pounds.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:44 pm
Why are people, over and over again, using the 1st provided Oct 11, 1969 Zodiac sketch when there actually is a 2nd one avaible, which was actually emproved by the Stine murder witnesses, to make a sketch that was more accurate???
I just don´t understand that at all!
Here is the emproved 2nd Zodiac sketch published Oct 18, 1969, and beside it the alleged Foulke sketch.
IMO they seem to be very much alike and aprox the same age, I would say in his 40s.
Agreed they both look alike but you got to go with the Stine murder witness cause there was more then one of them. And as mentioned they look nothing like LB sketch. So that leaves me to believe the Stine witness sketch is the closes to what Zodiac look like.
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:57 pm
Why are people, over and over again, using the 1st provided Oct 11, 1969 Zodiac sketch when there actually is a 2nd one avaible, which was actually emproved by the Stine murder witnesses, to make a sketch that was more accurate???
I just don´t understand that at all!
Here is the emproved 2nd Zodiac sketch published Oct 18, 1969, and beside it the alleged Foulke sketch.
IMO they seem to be very much alike and aprox the same age, I would say in his 40s.
Agreed they both look alike but you got to go with the Stine murder witness cause there was more then one of them. And as mentioned they look nothing like LB sketch. So that leaves me to believe the Stine witness sketch is the closes to what Zodiac look like.
I’d have to disagree with the comment i have highlighted. Yes, there may have been several of them, but they saw Zodiac from across the street, much of which he was in the cab.
Don Fouke, however, saw Zodiac, i believe, face to face. I know there are two schools of thought and belief when it comes to Don Fouke’s sighting, with one group of people believeing Fouke did stop and speak with Z, while the other accept Foukes word and version that he simply drove past him. I believe that first, that he did stop and talk to him. I believe Zodiac was also telling the truth about ‘2 cops pulled up and one of them called me over’. If Fouke did call out to Zodiac and he ‘came over’, then its safe to assume that Fouke looked Zodiac square in the eye at fairly close range.
I know people will say there is no evidence that Fouke spoke to Z, but lets look at what Fouke says and remembers from that night to show why i believe he didn’t just drive past him. Fouke was asked ‘Can you guess at how fast you were driving down the street when you saw him?’ Fouke replied "Well, untill i saw him, probably about 35-40 MPH on a 25MPH street, (saw him) and slowed down, i dunno…still rolling, saw it was a white male and….step on the gas. Five, Ten, Maybe 15 seconds from first spotting him to passing him." Ok, so lets take the aveage time of 10 seconds. Fouke saw this man for 10 seconds on a street at night, over 40 years ago. Keep this in mind for th next paragraph….
Fouke then was asked to describe him and he said "We saw a white male adult, dressed in a derby, or 3 quarter waist length jacket with elastic at the waist and on the cuffs, and a regular flap down collar. He had a crew cut, he was wearing rust coloured pleated trousers unusual for that time. He had on engineering typ boots, low cut shoe, 3 quarters of the way in length and tan in color".
Now, for a 10 second sigting at night, Fouke can even recall he had elastic at the waist and on the cuffs (at night, from a distance), aswel as the type of boots he was wearing & the color.
As i’ve said in a previous post, Arnold Pellisetti said he doesn’t think it was Z that Fouke saw because Z would have been covered in blood (the teens said Z had Paul Stines head resting on his lap at one point after shooting him in the head). Well, that would suggest that the Zodiac’s trousers would be soaked in blood, and when we look at Foukes description of "He was wearing RUST colored pleated trousers", we can speculate they may have looked ‘Rust colored’ due to being saturated in blood.
So, i think that Foukes desription is far more likely to be accurate due to my belief in Fouke speaking with Zodiac face to face.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:19 pm
Why are people, over and over again, using the 1st provided Oct 11, 1969 Zodiac sketch when there actually is a 2nd one avaible, which was actually emproved by the Stine murder witnesses, to make a sketch that was more accurate???
I just don´t understand that at all!
Here is the emproved 2nd Zodiac sketch published Oct 18, 1969, and beside it the alleged Foulke sketch.
IMO they seem to be very much alike and aprox the same age, I would say in his 40s.
Agreed they both look alike but you got to go with the Stine murder witness cause there was more then one of them. And as mentioned they look nothing like LB sketch. So that leaves me to believe the Stine witness sketch is the closes to what Zodiac look like.
I’d have to disagree with the comment i have highlighted. Yes, there may have been several of them, but they saw Zodiac from across the street, much of which he was in the cab.
Don Fouke, however, saw Zodiac, i believe, face to face. I know there are two schools of thought and belief when it comes to Don Fouke’s sighting, with one group of people believeing Fouke did stop and speak with Z, while the other accept Foukes word and version that he simply drove past him. I believe that first, that he did stop and talk to him. I believe Zodiac was also telling the truth about ‘2 cops pulled up and one of them called me over’. If Fouke did call out to Zodiac and he ‘came over’, then its safe to assume that Fouke looked Zodiac square in the eye at fairly close range.
I know people will say there is no evidence that Fouke spoke to Z, but lets look at what Fouke says and remembers from that night to show why i believe he didn’t just drive past him. Fouke was asked ‘Can you guess at how fast you were driving down the street when you saw him?’ Fouke replied "Well, untill i saw him, probably about 35-40 MPH on a 25MPH street, (saw him) and slowed down, i dunno…still rolling, saw it was a white male and….step on the gas. Five, Ten, Maybe 15 seconds from first spotting him to passing him." Ok, so lets take the aveage time of 10 seconds. Fouke saw this man for 10 seconds on a street at night, over 40 years ago. Keep this in mind for th next paragraph….
Fouke then was asked to describe him and he said "We saw a white male adult, dressed in a derby, or 3 quarter waist length jacket with elastic at the waist and on the cuffs, and a regular flap down collar. He had a crew cut, he was wearing rust coloured pleated trousers unusual for that time. He had on engineering typ boots, low cut shoe, 3 quarters of the way in length and tan in color".
Now, for a 10 second sigting at night, Fouke can even recall he had elastic at the waist and on the cuffs (at night, from a distance), aswel as the type of boots he was wearing & the color.
As i’ve said in a previous post, Arnold Pellisetti said he doesn’t think it was Z that Fouke saw because Z would have been covered in blood (the teens said Z had Paul Stines head resting on his lap at one point after shooting him in the head). Well, that would suggest that the Zodiac’s trousers would be soaked in blood, and when we look at Foukes description of "He was wearing RUST colored pleated trousers", we can speculate they may have looked ‘Rust colored’ due to being saturated in blood.
So, i think that Foukes desription is far more likely to be accurate due to my belief in Fouke speaking with Zodiac face to face.
Point being both sketches are very similar so this is what Zodiac must have look like. Not the LB sketch.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:30 pm
Another point WC and not trying to offend you at all but see no resemblance to the Fouke sketch and the Stine witness sketch to Kane. Nor do I see a resemblance to most of the popular suspects such as ALA, Rick Marshall and etc.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:31 pm
Another point WC and not trying to offend you at all but see no resemblance to the Fouke sketch and the Stine witness sketch to Kane. Nor do I see a resemblance to most of the popular suspects such as ALA, Rick Marshall and etc.
I think he looked more like his usual self at Berryessa because he was always going to wear a hood. For the Presidio Heights murder Zodiac knew that his escape would involve walking on a populated street so he drastically changed his appearence for that murder. For example, Mageau described his attackers hair as ‘short, dark and curly’, Hartnell also described seeing dark wavy hair hanging down over the forehead under the hood. The Stine witnesses described ‘short hair in a crew cut’ and all said they though it was light in color.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:35 pm
And stitch, i never said i knew Kane was Zodiac and that i discount all other suspects. I agree, the sketch doesn’t look like the Kane we all know from photos. But as i point out on my web page about Kane, he looks different in almost every photo. Examples below…
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:36 pm
Since we are on the subject remember In Graysmith’s yellow book he mentions the kids at the Stine murder said Rick Marshall was to fat to be the guy they saw. Funny he don’t mention that ALA was probably too and also somewhat bald.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:39 pm
Since we are on the subject remember In Graysmith’s yellow book he mentions the kids at the Stine murder said Rick Marshall was to fat to be the guy they saw. Funny he don’t mention that ALA was probably too and also somewhat bald.
Thats the biggest piece of evidence to suggest Allen wasn’t Zodiac….His lack of hair. Ok, you can plant a print, Ok, you could get someone else to lick a stamp, Ok you could mask your handwriting, but what you cannot do is appear with a head full of hair over and over when you have gone prematurely bald.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:40 pm
Another point WC and not trying to offend you at all but see no resemblance to the Fouke sketch and the Stine witness sketch to Kane. Nor do I see a resemblance to most of the popular suspects such as ALA, Rick Marshall and etc.
I think he looked more like his usual self at Berryessa because he was always going to wear a hood. For the Presidio Heights murder Zodiac knew that his escape would involve walking on a populated street so he drastically changed his appearence for that murder. For example, Mageau described his attackers hair as ‘short, dark and curly’, Hartnell also described seeing dark wavy hair hanging down over the forehead under the hood. The Stine witnesses described ‘short hair in a crew cut’ and all said they though it was light in color.
WC just was stating my opinion on it and have seen all the other pics of Kane you just posted. Again just my opinion.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:42 pm
Since we are on the subject remember In Graysmith’s yellow book he mentions the kids at the Stine murder said Rick Marshall was to fat to be the guy they saw. Funny he don’t mention that ALA was probably too and also somewhat bald.
Thats the biggest piece of evidence to suggest Allen wasn’t Zodiac….His lack of hair. Ok, you can plant a print, Ok, you could get someone else to lick a stamp, Ok you could mask your handwriting, but what you cannot do is appear with a head full of hair over and over when you have gone prematurely bald.
Agreed!
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:52 pm
As for Kane WC I will give you that and bet the kids couldn’t rule him out like Rick Marshall for being too overweight.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:59 pm
As for Kane WC I will give you that and bet the kids couldn’t rule him out like Rick Marshall for being too overweight.
Well according to reports, Fouke said Kane’s poto was the best likeness he’d seen in 20 years of looking at suspect photo’s, to the man he saw that night.
patinky, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:44 pm
I’m going to join the fray. Toupees are great for the hair-challenged head. 
Two more comments: composites are not necessarily likenesses or even skillful drawings. What the observer saw (which may or may not be accurate) has to be translated through the composite artist and eye witness observations are notoriously inaccurate. Some artists do beautiful work but they do not always create a good likeness. Some really bad artists manage to capture that one illusive component that allows an observer to say "Hey! That’s him!"
Comment two: Photographs catch a millisecond in time and often don’t look especially like the person looks in real life. It’s much like the beautiful movie star you’ve seen on stage and screen. When you see them in person they can be a big disappointment. Or maybe someone isn’t especially photogenic but when you see them in person they are quite beautiful, handsome and/or appealing.
Eye witnesses mean well but their statements are notoriously inaccurate. An interesting concept is the Rashomon Effect, which explains all this much better than I can.
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:31 pm
As for Kane WC I will give you that and bet the kids couldn’t rule him out like Rick Marshall for being too overweight.
Well according to reports, Fouke said Kane’s poto was the best likeness he’d seen in 20 years of looking at suspect photo’s, to the man he saw that night.
Do you honestly believe that ? Seriously he looks nothing like what Fouke’s description of Zodiac. If Fouke thought that then he should have did a better job in his description to fit Lawrence
StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:48 pm
Also do not mean to hijack this thread but just stating I don’t see the resemblance from Kane to the sketch. WC I will be willing to discuss on your Kane post tomorrow about Kane even how he became a suspect. Love your enthusiastic approach and well thought out post and what you bring to this board. I’m glad you here!
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:00 pm
As for Kane WC I will give you that and bet the kids couldn’t rule him out like Rick Marshall for being too overweight.
Well according to reports, Fouke said Kane’s poto was the best likeness he’d seen in 20 years of looking at suspect photo’s, to the man he saw that night.
Do you honestly believe that ? Seriously he looks nothing like what Fouke’s description of Zodiac. If Fouke thought that then he should have did a better job in his description to fit Lawrence
As with the pics i have shown earlier in this thread, Kane changed his appearance with ease, and Zodiac said he also only looked like the description only when he did his thing and the rest of the time looks entirely different. You wouldn’t expect Fouke’s drawing to be a dead ringer for any top suspect because he probably didn’t look like that in everyday life. Now i’m not suggesting that because Zodiac said he wore a disguise, we can all take it as gospel truth. But, as i said earlier, Zodiac knew his escape route would be down main streets, under lights, with high possibility of members of the public being somewhere along his escape route. It stands to reason that, knowing this as Zodiac would have, he would have altered his appearance considerably.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:08 pm
Also do not mean to hijack this thread but just stating I don’t see the resemblance from Kane to the sketch. WC I will be willing to discuss on your Kane post tomorrow about Kane even how he became a suspect. Love your enthusiastic approach and well thought out post and what you bring to this board. I’m glad you here!
I’ll be willing to discuss Kane, or anything you like, anytime. And thank you for the compliment. I’ve put in a FOI request to SF FBI office in Jan and they emailed me last week to say one of their office staff/agents is currently gathering together thethings i asked for. I asked for all of Kane’s known criminal history, any investigation the FBI or SFPD ever carried out. His known aliases, as well as his whereabouts between 1968 – 1974.
The reason i have requested this info from the SF FBI office is to find out all i can, and also, to try find reasons/evidence within the documents & info the send me on Kane, to eliminate Kane as being the Z…ie, shows he was not in the area of Vallejo on July 4th etc.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:59 pm
Another point WC and not trying to offend you at all but see no resemblance to the Fouke sketch and the Stine witness sketch to Kane. Nor do I see a resemblance to most of the popular suspects such as ALA, Rick Marshall and etc.
I think he looked more like his usual self at Berryessa because he was always going to wear a hood. For the Presidio Heights murder Zodiac knew that his escape would involve walking on a populated street so he drastically changed his appearence for that murder. For example, Mageau described his attackers hair as ‘short, dark and curly’, Hartnell also described seeing dark wavy hair hanging down over the forehead under the hood. The Stine witnesses described ‘short hair in a crew cut’ and all said they though it was light in color.
Nope. Mike never said it was dark. He said it was "light brown, almost blonde". SF: Reddish-blond.
Bryan: Dark brown and combed.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:32 pm
Yes but should we really be taking Mike’s description seriously? I am not for a moment criticising Mike, who knows how any of us would turn out after we’d be shot over and over while trapped in a car, as well as having to watch Darlene slowly die and theres nothing he could do.
But Mike has done the following:
Picked Arthur Leigh Allen out of a line up (after Allen was named publically as asuspect) as the man who shot him saying "Thats him,thats the man who shot me…i’ll never forget that face. He looks like that guy’s photo over here also". (He said he was certain, no doubt about it,that was the phot of the man that shot him. Well the description of the two are consistent, Mike describes his attacker as having short, brown curly hair. So naturally he would pick out the bald headed Art Allen and declare he is the shooter!
So, after apparantly ID’ing Mr Allen as his assailant, he then said,years later "I don’t think Darlene mentioned a name….maybe she said something about his name being Richard…as i recall she did say his name was Richard. She definitely mentioned that his namen was Richard. I don’t recall him wearing glasses, i can’t recall if he was wearing glasses…as i seem to recall, he may have been wearing glasses. He was, he was wearing glasses. He was definitely weraing glasses,as i recall."
Mike also never mentioned any car chasing him and Darlene anywhere on that night, and later cae up with "The guy chased us all over town. Followed us fromthe time Darlene first picked me up, untill we pulled into the parking lot to lose him." Yes, that sounds likely. Mad man chasing you, and you drive straight past a police station, and proceed to the far safer area of a deserted, dark, empty parking area. Thats sure to shake off a tail…Hmmm.
Like i said, i can’t and won’t say anything negative in relation to Mike because he’s been through such a traumatic experience, but i think anything he saysshould be taken with a pinch of salt
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:47 pm
I think when it comes to the original police report, you should take it a bit more seriously.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:12 pm
I think when it comes to the original police report, you should take it a bit more seriously.
You mean Mikes first statement to officers in the immediate aftermath of the attack?
I know what your geting at, it’s the most fresh that the attack will be in his memory then, and he also seemed to be fairly honest and realistic that statement, no elaborate car chases all over Vallejo, No suspect that was Arthur Leigh Allen and sporting a thick head of dark hair. Yes i sort of agree with you there Tahoe on that point. But, what if i said to you "I think we should dismiss Don Foukes first report where he stated (he didn’t change his story for 38 years) in his account of that night. We should no longer believe Z walked past them as they were driving past him, and we should all now believe Foukes new story that Mr Zodiac saw the approaching police car, and turned and went up steps onto a footpathleading to a house, and approached a front door on Jackson St.
Would we believe this new claim, thirty-eight years after the event?
I don’t.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:03 pm
I think the police reports at the time are always the best bet–not that what is in them is necessarily fact. This is why I believe Fouke when he said in his scratch he saw the man walk north on Maple.
I might question Mike more if his statements didn’t almost match up word for word what Fouke and/or the kids said. Even the stocky, barrel chested stuff. Age would be the only real discrepency, but Fouke thought the guys hair MIGHT be graying, so maybe that accounted for the high-end age. ?? Although they were only 5 years apart. 30-35
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:58 pm
I think the police reports at the time are always the best bet–not that what is in them is necessarily fact. This is why I believe Fouke when he said in his scratch he saw the man walk north on Maple.
I might question Mike more if his statements didn’t almost match up word for word what Fouke and/or the kids said. Even the stocky, barrel chested stuff. Age would be the only real discrepency, but Fouke thought the guys hair MIGHT be graying, so maybe that accounted for the high-end age. ?? Although they were only 5 years apart. 30-35
Well why would Fouke change his story now to seeing the wite male go up steps and along a path towards a front door? I mean, weather he is really being truthful and that is the real truth of what he saw, or weather he’s making it up to….well i assume there would be a reason, maybe to try and make his decision not to stop the man more understandable and reasonable, ‘Because he appeared to be heading toward a residence’ is not really the point. Any change of story now, weather it be the real truth coming out, or a lie for a reason he has, both scanerios are going to cast serious doubt on anything he may say in future.
Mind you, that may be why he’s changed his story, he may have decided ‘For Thirty Eight years now, hardly a day passes where i don’t get asked about Zodiac and what i saw, so i’ll put forward a new story now and appear to discredit myself so people will piss off and stop asking me questions’ lol. I bet he gets asked almost every day by someone about something to do with Zodiac. I’d get pissed off mind aslo if every day someone asked something about a fella i’d seen briefy nearly 40 years ago. I bet Fouke dreams of The Zodiac thumbing his patrol car down at W’ton & Chry st and asking "Evening blue Pig that pulled a goof, this is the Zodiac Speaking, could i catch a ride to Julius Kahn please so i may disappear into the park never to be seen again".
To be serious thought, despite my questioning Don and his credibility, i feel sorry fot the man because he not only has had to live with having Zodiac stood in front of his asking to be caught and he wasn’t, but all the accusations over the years (fuled by his own words and story changes none the less)
I said yesterday and i’ll say again today, it’s such a shame that Eric Zelms lost his life so soon after the ‘encounter’, because had he still be alive, who knows what he would have had to say once he was retired from LE and free to say what he likes without being worried about going along with the ‘status-quo’
onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:35 pm
In what ways can you disguise yourself? Can you change your hair color/add a wig? Can you add weight with padding?
Can you wear an older person’s style of clothing? Add eyeglasses? How about a total head to toe costume?
The only confirmed eyewitness sketch is the first Paul Stine. We probably won’t solve this crime based on the sketch
except in retrospect…
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:39 pm
In what ways can you disguise yourself? Can you change your hair color/add a wig? Can you add weight with padding?
Can you wear an older person’s style of clothing? Add eyeglasses? How about a total head to toe costume?
Heck, white kids in the SLA made themselves black and apparently pulled it off quite well.
I was never one for the Clark Kent disguise though.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:08 pm
In what ways can you disguise yourself? Can you change your hair color/add a wig? Can you add weight with padding?
Can you wear an older person’s style of clothing? Add eyeglasses? How about a total head to toe costume?
The only confirmed eyewitness sketch is the first Paul Stine. We probably won’t solve this crime based on the sketch
except in retrospect…
Oh dear, the first thing that came to mind when i looked at this mans sketch was "I have been stood here waiting for 45 minutes…..Where the (Expletive) is this bus!"
I feel compelled to offer my deepest sympathies to this man for such a face.
I don’t think this could be Zodiac because he looks like he is sad and depressed. Z doesn’t have the time on his hands to be depressed and feel sad, he’s to busy congratulating himself on how he managed to take on an entire city and emerge victorious.
It’s quite ironic in a way, Z informed the SFPD that they would never catch him because he has been too clever for them. I think Zodiac only ever assumed that it would be the SFPD that would pursue him. In the 90’s and 00’s, i would imagine Mr Eluzive himself at the premier of the 07 movie ‘Zodiac’, front row seat, and comparing the movie to how it really happened as he remembers.
But i wonder why there was never a ‘death bed confession’ with ‘To prove i’m telling the truth, Paul Stines Wallet can be found at….’ See this is what doesn’t make sence. The personaly of the letter writer leaps off the page at you as a boastful, bragging, lover of the spotlight & front page or no page (You don’t busy some one as important and famous as Zodiac on some obsecure page, as he told the papers). If this man really had such a personality, then the attention and love of the games would have made it almost impossible for him to just decide ‘Thats it, no more’. Kinda like BTK when he was indirectly provoked. See this is where i can’t help but think the Zodiac and his persona were created for the purpose of deception, to use an analogy, the magician often used the ‘mis-direction’ tactic on his audience, ie ‘direct you attention over here, while the card is being switched over there’. I can’t help think this is what Z was ‘invented’ for. If i’m wrong then this man, apparantly obsessed with geting in the paper or on TV, and even offers to make the search and investigation fun by adding a little game of ‘Here’s is another Cipher for you to spend hours over frustration over, good luck’ etc. How could this man’s apparant craving for publicity just seem to disappear as quickly as he burst into the community from nowhere? Doesn’t really add up for me.
Drew, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:40 pm
Perhaps Zodiac was clever enough to understand and appreciate that, minus any death-bed confession, people would still be talking about him long after he was gone.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:53 pm
Ahh, but who his "him"?
I wonder if BTK was asked that question if he would answer honestly. Would he have eventually disclosed who he was? Would someone eventually found all his creepy evidence?
I can only hope one day Zodiac is caught and he spills the beans like BTK did. He thoroughly enjoyed telling of his crimes.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:24 pm
Perhaps Zodiac was clever enough to understand and appreciate that, minus any death-bed confession, people would still be talking about him long after he was gone.
Zodiac came across in his letters as the type of egotist that, would he be told one day by a Doc. You have 3 months to live, he stikes me from his letter content and personality to be most pleased to announce his real name for the World to know so that they can look upon this criminal genius who was ‘crack-proof’ and take the creditt himself as him for his sheer brilliance as the Zodiac persona.
I mean to his sick way of thinking, if we go by the letters (and they are the true writings and personality of the writer), this would be a man who was (at least in 68/69) extremely proud and happy with his ‘work’.
Mind you, according to some they have recieved caskets and coffins many time from Zodiac, the cross hair symbol, even physically attacked.
I mean i did giggle to myself earlier when trying to work out….Why, and how he went about this. Was he ordering coffins every few months from the Tahoe rest home? They’d answer their phone with Tahoe funeral services… "I wan’t to report an order….no, a double order. If you’ll order two regular caskets to be delivered to a storage locker. I also ordered thoes coffin’s last year. GoooooodByeeeeee.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Age difference? Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:08 am
One possible answer to the riddle is that something happened to iron out his psychopathy. My favourite theory is that whatever mental illness drove Zodiac to kill was cured, and he went on to live an ordinary life.
morf13, Subject: Re: Age difference? Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:29 am
One possible answer to the riddle is that something happened to iron out his psychopathy. My favourite theory is that whatever mental illness drove Zodiac to kill was cured, and he went on to live an ordinary life.
Not sure we could call it ‘ordinary’. If you are right,I am sure he looked over his shoulder alot,and probably was nervous everytime he saw a cop near him, just waiting for a knock on the door,probably afraid to write anything in printed handwriting,and being extra careful not to get in trouble and get his prints taken
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:33 am
One possible answer to the riddle is that something happened to iron out his psychopathy. My favourite theory is that whatever mental illness drove Zodiac to kill was cured, and he went on to live an ordinary life.
I watched a friend of mine from school become ill with Psychosis and saw him go though many psychotic episodes, two of which landed him sectioned under the mental health act in a secure mental illness facility (That was me trying to be politically correct….its a nut house, mental institution, funny farm etc.) I visited him in there once and i am not kidding, it was like walking onto a scene from Night of the Living Dead.
If Zodiac, or anyone else for that matter, has a mental illness, then that isn’t just going to go away with time if he tried to ignore it. If he got medical help for himself, then maybe yes. I don’t think Zodiac had one of the forms of mental illness that would qualify him as legally insane, he sounds far to coherent in his letters. Doesn’t seem to be out of touch with reality. (Other than the ‘Slaves for the after life mumbo jumbo’. I don’t think Zodiac believed that for a second and probaly used the phrase knowing it was a phrase used in Satanic Cults.
onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Age difference? Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:39 am
Iron out his psychopathy? You’ve got to be kidding. Psychopaths don’t change, they get worse, and if
you ever engage with a psychopath hoping to cure him/her you are in for a world of hurt.
patinky, Subject: Re: Age difference? Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:39 pm
I have to agree with OWK.
My theory is he died by accident or by suicide. He possibly lives or lived outside the country. If incarcerated, I’d guess he is in solitary or isolation.
Personally, I don’t think he was insane. I think he had a personality disorder and was a sociopath.
Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Age difference? Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:07 pm
Iron out his psychopathy? You’ve got to be kidding. Psychopaths don’t change, they get worse, and if
you ever engage with a psychopath hoping to cure him/her you are in for a world of hurt.
This is true. Pyschopaths and Psychotics are clearly different. The Psychotic can and often does become dangerous only when having a psychotic episode, which will almost always manifest itself with extreme paranoir. If your around someone having such an episode, they will alwats tend to ask you "What was that then, you heard it i know you did?" If you say ‘no, its nothing mate now calm down and relax’, this is the worst thing, in my experience anyway, you can do because they then believe you are now also part of the conspircy and are consipring with persons unknown against the person having the episode.
A psychopath you can never relax around, because they don’t need an event or reason to go from jovial to homicidal in 3 seconds, they just do for no real reason that to a logical mind you can understand, and it can be out of the blue and totally unexpected. I don’t know if it is a medical fact or not that all psychopaths lack empathy, but i know the vast majority do appear to show no apparant ability to see others as human beings, total lack of empathty and therefor remorse for anything they do is not available to them, as they simply don’t understand and see the world and others as we would. They don’t decide to be that way, it cannot really be deemed ‘cold hearted’ IMO because they just don’t have these emotions.
Jem, Subject: Re: Age difference? Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:30 pm
An interesting ariticle from a couple months ago in SciAm Mind about psychopathy. Apparently, psychopaths become less sensitive to negative things like fear and rejection, the more they experience, compared to non-psychopaths. Here’s an excerpt from a conversation the author had with a psychopathic prison inmate:
"When we were kids," Jaime chimes in, we’d have a competition. See who could get the most elbows (rejections) on a night out. You know, from girls, like. The bloke who’d got the most by the time the lights came on would get the next night out for free.
"Course, it was in your interest to rack up as many as possible, right? A night on the piss with evertthing taken care of by your mates? Sorted! But the funny thing was, soon as you started to get a few under your belt, it actually got f…. harder. Soon as you realize that it actually means jack, you start getting cocky. You start mouthing off. And some of the birds start to buy it!"
"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.
