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BRS/Stine Gun

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Chaucer
(@chaucer)
Posts: 1210
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Topic starter
 

Was the gun used in the Blue Rock Springs Attack the same gun used to kill Paul Stine?

“Murder will out, this my conclusion.”
– Geoffrey Chaucer

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 12:39 am
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
Prominent Member
 

No.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 2:32 am
Chaucer
(@chaucer)
Posts: 1210
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Topic starter
 

Thanks as always, Richard.

Do we know if this was confirmed through ballistics? Evidence seems to suggests that the weapon used in the BRS, LB, and PH attacks was a Browning Hi Power 9mm. Just wondering that if that was the case – was it the same weapon? Or just the same TYPE of weapon.

Seems like the latter.

“Murder will out, this my conclusion.”
– Geoffrey Chaucer

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 2:56 am
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
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https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 12:37 pm
buyerninety
(@buyerninety)
Posts: 166
Estimable Member
 

Above pictures of pistols correct, if it is taken that the words ‘Such as:’ appear
in the top left of each pistol picture.

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 2:00 pm
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
Prominent Member
 

The important question to answer is, the Zodiac Killer immediately wrote to the Examiner on August 4th to provide more details he was the killer. He supplied information in the July 31st 1969 letters to prove he was the responsible in the first two attacks. He sent in three pieces of Paul Stine’s shirt to inextricably link himself to the murder of Paul Stine, providing supplemental details in the ‘Bus Bomb’ letter and left his handwriting at the Berryessa crime scene. He constantly tried to link himself to all four attacks in numerous ways. Why didn’t he simply use the same gun throughout and save all the effort?

The argument of not wanting to hold on to same weapon because it was too risky doesn’t stack up, when we consider the inordinate risk he took in his crimes as a whole. The storage of a weapon in between crimes without detection is easily achievable. and posed far less risk to his capture than the brazen and high risk exploits of Presidio Heights and Lake Berryessa. The Zodiac Killer could have easily shot three extra rounds off from the gun he used at Lake Herman Road and placed one bullet at each crime scene. It seems to suggest the requirement to link himself to each crime scene wasn’t the overriding driver, just the thrill of the chase.

He may not have owned any guns – rather he had access to them.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 3:12 pm
Quicksilver
(@quicksilver)
Posts: 76
Trusted Member
 

On the episode of Very Scary People, it was stated by one of the people being interviewed that there were multiple shell casings found at the Stine murder. I don’t think that is correct. Can someone verify as to how many casings WERE found?

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 5:53 pm
(@cragle)
Posts: 767
Prominent Member
 

On the episode of Very Scary People, it was stated by one of the people being interviewed that there were multiple shell casings found at the Stine murder. I don’t think that is correct. Can someone verify as to how many casings WERE found?

Police report stated 1 shell casing was found

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 6:00 pm
Quicksilver
(@quicksilver)
Posts: 76
Trusted Member
 

On the episode of Very Scary People, it was stated by one of the people being interviewed that there were multiple shell casings found at the Stine murder. I don’t think that is correct. Can someone verify as to how many casings WERE found?

Police report stated 1 shell casing was found

Thanks….That’s what I thought…I still don’t understand as to why the witnesses to the Stine murder said they didn’t hear a shot….what brought their attention to the look out at the cab if they didn’t hear anything?……

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 6:08 pm
Chaucer
(@chaucer)
Posts: 1210
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Topic starter
 

While we aren’t sure of the gun used at BRS, Hartnell did provide some useful details.

His description leads me to believe he was describing a Browning Hi Power 9mm.

If that’s accurate, it’s likely the same gun used in the Stine murder just two weeks later.

“Murder will out, this my conclusion.”
– Geoffrey Chaucer

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 6:35 pm
CuriousCat
(@curiouscat)
Posts: 1328
Noble Member
 

Why didn’t he simply use the same gun throughout and save all the effort?

The argument of not wanting to hold on to same weapon because it was too risky doesn’t stack up, when we consider the inordinate risk he took in his crimes as a whole. The storage of a weapon in between crimes without detection is easily achievable. and posed far less risk to his capture than the brazen and high risk exploits of Presidio Heights and Lake Berryessa.

It seems obvious he was aware of investigating techniques and pretty much everyone knew ballistic matches solved cases, so it makes sense Zodiac would have took precautions to prevent being caught with a weapon used in a murder. That would be a stupid move for a guy who seemed so careful about such matters. I’ve always figured the guns he used immediately ended up at the bottom of the San Francisco bay or some similar method was used. I just see no reason for him to keep the guns unless they had sentimental value to him, perhaps being a "trophy" of his kills. So I can see either scenario being plausible but think it more likely he dumped them soon after the attacks. Save LB, since he didn’t use it.

The Zodiac Killer could have easily shot three extra rounds off from the gun he used at Lake Herman Road and placed one bullet at each crime scene. It seems to suggest the requirement to link himself to each crime scene wasn’t the overriding driver, just the thrill of the chase.

Well, as I like to point out, there is some reason LE connect the four attacks and seem reluctant to include others. There seems to be something solid showing the same person committed them and it doesn’t seem to be finger-prints, eyewitnesses or even the letters. I think there is a good chance either he left something at the scenes or mailed something he took from the scenes that we don’t know about.

 
Posted : April 26, 2019 7:28 pm
Chaucer
(@chaucer)
Posts: 1210
Moderator Admin
Topic starter
 

Here’s the other thing that’s curious.

Why does Zodiac say that "they were shot with a 9mm Luger"? There are a couple things wrong with this.

First, 9mm Luger typically refers to a type of AMMO, not a weapon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum

Second, if he was, in fact, referring to a weapon, he was likely talking about this gun which is a called a Pistole Parabellum or more commonly a "Luger":

That should do it, right? No. There’s a problem with this.

The Pistole Parabellum or Luger only has an 8 round magazine. 1 in the chamber and 7 in the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9g-CcrGW0

The problem is that 9 rounds were fired at Blue Rock Springs. So, either Zodiac took the time and switched in a new clip to go back and shoot Mike and Darlene the second time. Or, he didn’t use a Pistole Parabellum, but rather some other type of handgun.

My theory is that Zodiac was referring to the kind of ammo he used when he called Nancy Slover. Remember, he never admitted what type of gun he used at Lake Herman, but he did brag about what ammo he used. I think he did the same here.

I think he told her, "They were shot with 9mm Luger." or "They were shot with 9mm Lugers."

He probably used a 13 round Browning Hi Power or Colt 1911 to shoot Mike and Darlene, but the clip was full of 9mm Luger ammunition more commonly known as the 9x19mm Parabellum.

“Murder will out, this my conclusion.”
– Geoffrey Chaucer

 
Posted : April 27, 2019 1:18 am
(@monarch)
Posts: 433
Reputable Member
 

The German Luger (P08) holds 8 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber for a total of 9 rounds.

The animation showing only 7 rounds in the magazine is wrong.

 
Posted : April 27, 2019 2:07 am
Chaucer
(@chaucer)
Posts: 1210
Moderator Admin
Topic starter
 

Redacted

“Murder will out, this my conclusion.”
– Geoffrey Chaucer

 
Posted : April 27, 2019 2:46 am
 egg
(@egg)
Posts: 144
Estimable Member
 

Curious why the weapon, not used at LB, would then be swapped for another for Stine just a few weeks later.

 
Posted : December 31, 2020 2:12 pm
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