calman, Subject: choosing a good z suspect Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:08 pm

make a list of known zodiac suspects. some will be known for other crimes others not. two that are known for other crimes are ted k and ala. ted k is known for the unabomb kilings. ala went to prison for child molestation. lets use these two as examples. compare each of these two criminals m.o. method of operation to the zodiac killings.
zodiac killed in person all zodiac killings were done up close and personal.
ted k mailed bombs to people. never even seeing the people he killed.
ala was not ever known to kill any children he molested. his victims were never over 12 years old. zodiacs victims were older teens to adult in age.
so when i look at these comparisons it tells me ted k nor ala were the zodiac.
comparing m.o. or method of operation can narrow down the suspect list. the poi suspects that ere never known as criminals would be more difficult to use this particular comparison technique.
calman

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:14 pm

Welcome to the board.

That is not a bad approach you mention.

"ted k mailed bombs to people. never even seeing the people he killed."

Partially true but not the whole story. TK also planted bombs in parking lots behind computer stores and at college campuses, and is thought by some in the FBI to have stayed to watch the explosions.

TK also shot a miner with a rifle and made a pistol he says he would use for "homicide".

And we simply don’t know what other crimes TK did – he says he buried or burned accounts of all non-bombing crimes as they would be "embarassing, dangerous or just very bad public relations".

If we say Zodiac sent bomb threats in the mail, threatened to bomb mass transit then said it was a prank, demanded his words go on the front page of the paper or people would die, was a code expert who built a code the FBI couldn’t crack, wrote of a desire to kill couples, signed his name with crossed lines inside a circle and left crossed lines inside a circle at a crime scene – WELL TED KACZYNSKI DID ALL OF THOSE THINGS TOO.

With ALA I would say all of his known crimes were overtly sexual with no violence and directed against children, whereas with known Zodiac crimes they were very violent with no overt sexuality and directed against adults.

However, with TK, ALA and Bruce Davis at least they have a felony criminal record, which is more than we can say for Gaikowski, Marshall or most of the other major Z suspects. And with TK and BD, it is murder.

calman, Subject: process of elimination Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:18 pm

when i read zodiacs letter where he speaks of picking off the kiddies as they come bouncing off the bus is in sharp contrast to teds apoligy letter about the bomb that blew a hole in the side of an airliner saying that he was sorry that there could have been children on board.
all im doing is trying to find a clear path past all the suspects that really is not zodiac to cross them off the list and narrow the investigation. comparing m.o. is but one investigative tool at our disposal. there are many other methods also. like comparing writing styles and timeline research.
i hope we dont get on a suspect merry go round always returning to where we started. this is the most difficult case ive ever studied. i can see in my opinionated mind ted k reading the newspaper zodiac letters and articles and saying to himself "hey, that gives me an idea!"
maybe we could ask him!!! calman

calman, Subject: a suspect i know nothing about Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:27 pm

bruce davis i know nothing about this z suspect this is a poi i need to research. i need to find out his criminal background as well as the person himself. i want to not only investigate him but to apply the tools to determine if his m.o. fits the z profile. i guess i got my work cut out for me so when im stuck with questions maybe someonre who knows this suspect better than me could provide insight. of course anything we figure out is for all of us to pick apart so we leave no stone unturned. oh boy this is gonna be fun!!!

linda, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:43 am

In my opinion one of the utmost and critical parallels to consider in choosing a suspect in the Zodiac crimes is the suspect’s penchant for writing. Whether corresponding to newspapers, authorities, victims or others, the written materials can hold unique clues to an individual’s identity. In the case of Zodiac, there are definitely numerous “known” Zodiac writings, including coded messages which can be used to compare against other "known" writings of any suspect. So much can be learned from what is written.

Whether under his guise as Zodiac or in his true life mode, it is my opinion that we need to be looking for someone who shares the love and/or desire to communicate through writing, someone who is knowledgeable and/or has used code, someone whose writings share similar characteristics in style, format, grammar, punctuation, material, etc.

This, to me, is one of the strongest traits of Zodiac and one that must not be overlooked when searching and/or identifying a potential suspect.

, Subject: ZODIAC’S METHODS OF COMMUNICATION Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:21 am

…WILL BE the way Zodiac is identified. Linda, you are spot on.

calman, Subject: crafty writer Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:54 pm

zodiac is one crafty writer that is for sure linda

tahoe27, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:17 pm

But, he knew this. He was concerned about them tracing photographs…surely he knew the handwriting was huge and one of LE’s only means of tracking him. Would he be so honest in his writing style?? I’m just sayin’ I wouldn’t dismiss someone who’s writing style might not be similar to Zodiac’s.

sandy betts, Subject: looking for the Z Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:46 pm

But, he knew this. He was concerned about them tracing photographs…surely he knew the handwriting was huge and one of LE’s only means of tracking him. Would he be so honest in his writing style?? I’m just sayin’ I wouldn’t dismiss someone who’s writing style might not be similar to Zodiac’s.

That is correct Tahoe, I feel the same way. I also think that there have been many zodiac letters tossed, because they were thought to be from a prankster. I have two notes that have been looked at by LE, who have voted 50-50 on them, as being from the Z man. I will send them to Morf or Zamantha to post on this site.
We must also remember that as he gets older, some people get very shaky, and that could change the looks of his writing. Like I believe the Ramsey case was done by a much older man, because his hands were so shaky. Oddly enough John Ramsey had his business connected to San Mateo Ca, ( south S,F,)
The killer may have known that because, he made reference to the Dirty Harry Movie which was about Zodiac. So, was this killer trying to frame the Zodiac for this killing ? Have any of you looked at the 3 page note the killer wrote ? You might be surprised.

sandy betts, Subject: looking for the Z man Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:19 pm

I forgot to mention , the words that Zodiac used is another clue, also that he wrote words in a formal way. I don’t think that he has changed his formal way of writing.
I do believe he is still alive and keeping his word, about not letting us know who, when, or where he has killed. The aged drawing I did of what I believe the Zodiac could look like today, I did from the old S.F. composite .
Most of you know that my suspect looks like a clone to Kane ( not his real birth name), or perhaps he is Kane, I just do not know. LE and Darlene’s family ,have told me the picture I took of him is Kane. I won’t know that for sure until I see him face to face. Because I have his name as R.Hernandez.
If we go by what the witnesses have told us we have a wide variety of descriptions.
We have 5ft 8 to 6ft 1 or2 160 # to 210 # light reddish hair in a crew cut, to dark brown curly hair.
I believe that Kathleen Johns was abducted by the Zodiac. If not then the man who took her for the interesting ride, is the same man who I have taken a picture of in Aug.1990.

My suspect is 5ft 8or 9, he is now about 190 #. Wares horn rimed glasses held on by a elastic band. He has a pot belly of which he calls a "paunch". His shoe prints in my yrd were 13in I believe that makes his shoe size a 10 or a 10 1/2 ? His hair was dark brown curly hair in 1968, but is now curly salt and pepper hair.
He talks in a monotoned voice, and is very polite ! I have seen my suspect follow a woman out of my job, and her body was found the next day in Oakland Ca. She was killed on Easter Sunday 1988. You might wonder why I didn’t get the police involved ? I did, but I had no name for him , and I couldn’t give a positive ID of her body, because her hair looked lighter I thought ,when I spoke to her at my job. I was so scared at that time, with what was going on day after day with this suspect that I became very confused. Her name was Victoria Bell well dressed on Easter of 88.

morf13, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:01 pm

This is an interesting topic.

Alot of people thought that Z was pretty smart, high IQ, etc. And that may be the case, but he also could have been living in his own little fantasy world, and took things from books & movies and made them his own. He could have learned about ciphers & bombs from books.

So I personally dont think we would need to be looking for an expert.

I think Zodiac is an unsub. I would bet money that he is someone that was never considered a "suspect" by the general public. My own personal opinion is that his name DOES appear in some of the Zodiac police reports. He can be placed on the scene at or around at least one of the attacks. He meets other circumstantial criteria.

To me, whoever Z was, he would have had to be around the crime scenes near the time of the murder(s).

ALA, and most of the other popular suspects cant be placed at or near crime scenes, and evidence has ruled them out for the most part. Thats why I think Z was an UNSUB

calman, Subject: unsub z Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:43 pm

if zodiac is an unsub have we got our work cut out for us. that means he is not on the general suspect list. that means we have yet to id him. it is going to be the most difficult part of the investigation. calman

sandy betts, Subject: z hunt Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:58 pm

I don’t think that he was a smart as people think either Morf. I think he did have a lot of dumb luck. And yes he did copy things he saw from books and movies.
My suspect R.H. just happens to be a unsub, no one but me has him on their list. He has never been arrested that I was able to find. The only thing that I found on him, was that he got a ticket while he was parked at a park in Walnut Creek Caif. early 70’s. He wouldn’t have been on my list ,if he didn’t come after me first in 1968. Thank goodness I saw his face , and reported him to the Napa police that night. They saw him drive across the street, while I was telling them about being followed. The guy didn’t seem to be worried about it at all. He was Pretty brazen.

linda, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:22 am

But, he knew this. He was concerned about them tracing photographs…surely he knew the handwriting was huge and one of LE’s only means of tracking him. Would he be so honest in his writing style?? I’m just sayin’ I wouldn’t dismiss someone who’s writing style might not be similar to Zodiac’s.

In regards to the actual physical writing, there’s no question that Z tried to disguise his; however, it is very difficult for anyone to totally disguise something that they have been doing, en-rote, for years and years; especially someone who writes as much as (apparently) Zodiac did. There are always certain little quirks or traits that are going to show up (in Z’s case, I believe two very strong traits show up in his looped "d’s" and 3-stroke "k’s" – in almost every instance, in all his communications, Z used).

However, the analysis of the writings of a suspect entails more than just the physical writing. Any suspect can find it easy to disguise the spelling, slant or character of a letter (to a degree) especially when only a limited number of communications are sent and you can’t really get a feel for other aspects of the writing (i.e. if Z had only written one or two communications with limited words and/or paragraphs)… What we have in Z’s case are numerous, lengthy writings, including coded messages, which he apparently took a good deal of thought and care in preparing. We can analyze more than just the physical writing to learn more about the suspect: Content, phraseology, grammar, punctuation, paragraphing, graphics, indentation, etc.. are all aspects that need to be thoroughly reviewed when comparing the Z writings to "known" writings of any suspect… In Z’s case we are fortunate to have a a grand quantity of his "known" Z communications that can make forensic analysis in comparing to a suspect thoroughly plausible.

There is no question in my mind that whoever Z is, we will find that he is a strong communicator and uses writing as one of his favorite tools to do so.

morf13, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:27 am

I suspect his cursive writing on the Lass xmas card & Riverside envelope (if Z wrote those) would have been the least altered writing.

Also, Zodiac used odd spacing after capital letters. Wonder if that was on purpose or not?

linda, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:08 am

Oh, yes! Spacing definitely is another indicator. I don’t think that can be overlooked in Z’s case. He certainly gave each letter it’s own space (with usual exception of the "Th" in which the lower case t is connected almost always to the capital T)…

The spacing of Zodiac’s works between each letter is strikingly unique. This indicated to me someone who was meticulous in a way… Have you ever noticed how perfect draftsmen print? Their letters are usually very exact with each letter provided with perfect spacing. Although Z’s characters are slanted, etc. (my belief being as a disguise), the spacing is quite controlled throughout.

I do love this topic of discussion. The writings are absolutely fascinating in themselves!

linda, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:22 am

I forgot to mention , the words that Zodiac used is another clue, also that he wrote words in a formal way. I don’t think that he has changed his formal way of writing.
I do believe he is still alive and keeping his word, about not letting us know who, when, or where he has killed. quote]

Given the considerable number of "known" Zodiac writings, the phraseology becomes very important. The words, how they’re used in context, etc. can give us clues to many traits of a suspect (for help in profiling)…but what it can also be used for is to identify other "known" writings of any suspect. Again, we are looking for "known" writings… A suspect who has written other materials through their own identity. And again, in the case of someone who has an absolute penchant for writing (which Z definitely displays), there are sure to be writings with which very similar or parallel traits displayed. Phraseology, the writing style (formality, grammatical use, etc) will be huge indicators that a particular suspect shares the writing similarities of Z.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:36 pm

Linda–I think you make very valid points.

My only problem with the Zodiac case is that he was wanting the newspapers to publish his stuff for all to see. He KNEW people out there would see it. I believe the writing, even though it looked rushed at times, etc., was very meticulously written.

If his family/friends knew he was a Mikado fan and called police blue meannies, and he had a basement…this list goes on and on…would he write about it?

I believe it’s all like magic…a false impression, misleading.

linda, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:00 am

Linda–I think you make very valid points.

My only problem with the Zodiac case is that he was wanting the newspapers to publish his stuff for all to see. He KNEW people out there would see it. I believe the writing, even though it looked rushed at times, etc., was very meticulously written.

If his family/friends knew he was a Mikado fan and called police blue meannies, and he had a basement…this list goes on and on…would he write about it?

I believe it’s all like magic…a false impression, misleading.

I agree with you Tahoe and do think that all of Z’s writings were very meticulously written. And I do understand what you’re saying; especially since he wanted certain aspects of his writings published, he was surely anticipating read from a large group… But then, maybe there’s the possibility that he didn’t anticipate family and friends reading it – maybe he was not from the California area and he thought that his writings would be viewed only amongst the local areas where the murders took place.

What if Z had privileged us by providing only one or two written communiqués? The odds of being able to detect certain aspects of his writings would be considerably limited. However, Z couldn’t stop. He continued to put his thoughts in writing which helped in identifying patterns in his style, phraseology and punctuation, etc. He may not have anticipated the numerous correspondences he was going to be providing or putting forward and, individually, his writings may not have provided unique or significant clues… But, in totality, I think they came together to provide a wealth of information that we otherwise may not have been able to see.

As far as quoting The Mikado is concerned, I don’t think there’s any question that he was familiar with the score somehow (whether by seeing the play, reading it or performing it). An absolutely wonderful piece of satirical comedy by Gilbert & Sullivan, Z must have been drawn to quote from it for some reason… And if we believe that the 1974 Exorcist letter was an authentic Zodiac missive, he mockingly speaks of “The Exorcist” as satirical comedy while, in remembrance, drawing once again upon his familiarity with The Mikado’s lines… "…he plunged himself into the billowy wave…titwillow, titwillow, titwillow…" This indicates to me that Z seems to be fond of comedy (that which is satirical/mocking in nature).

Again, that certainly doesn’t mean that he couldn’t be throwing us falsehoods/red herrings, purposefully using terminology that was quite prevalent at the time and/or outright lying about certain things in his writings…but I still believe that no matter how careful you are in trying to disguise and/or hide certain aspects of one’s writing, there are always things that will pop through… especially when the messages don’t stop and more and more are received… just like serial murder… patterns evolve…

calman, Subject: example of two similar writings Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:17 pm

here is a comparison of a suspect writing to the zodiac’s writing this is just one example of many

http://img130.imageshack

/

i hope i did the image shack correct calman

sandy betts, Subject: Zodiac’s style of writing Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:20 pm

Some say that a persons writing is like their voice. Let me give you a example of a note written to a forum called Topix. It was written Dec.15th 2006 by a person calling himself "Vallejo resident"
Quoting him about a topic concerning a Vallejo teenager shot multiple times :

Now that Vallejo is back on the map as the quintessential shoot-’em-upwestern town (better I think than its earlier notoriety as the locus for the Zodiac crime spree-an above-the-law-elite-college rite of passage that got out of hand, because it was so treated by those who should have solved the case by now and were not to do so… )-shall we invite some fearless reporter to examine why this is so ? Perhaps the drugs ? Perhaps,as we all speculate,the closeness of Kaiser and prescription drugs getting out of hand? I mean out of "the hands of those who have access to the pill- tills"? Perhaps The fight between medical marijuana and "the mobs" is has picked Vallejo as it’s waterloo (ifso,please note,that’s what Marin is for,move along now). Perhaps after the bravery of Gary Webb was rewarded by a complacent populace we shan’t get so lucky after all.

I shall sell tickets to my bedroom window-I shall be posting the pop-pop-pop-pop Friday Day night sounds on a blog for all to hear and wonder the same…

calman, Subject: here is the suspect writing Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:23 pm

zodiac spoke of nice and not so nice buttons in a letter well there is suspect writing that says the same basic thing

sandy betts, Subject: How did this happen ? Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:45 pm

Sorry Calman we must have been typing at the same time. Maybe one of the mods can move mine down a post , so yours will be together ?

calman, Subject: its ok sandy Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:52 pm

my first try at posting links and one came out as a link the other showed up as the image im new at this but hope to improve as i go along calman

tahoe27, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:17 pm

zodiac spoke of nice and not so nice buttons in a letter well there is suspect writing that says the same basic thing

So are you saying because someone says "button" and they are a suspect that it makes them a better suspect? Not trying to be rude.

calman, Subject: you are not rude you bring up a good point Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:46 pm

nice buttons= sos buttons nasty buttons=sob buttons its not much but it is interesting in comparison. im not saying the particular suspect is the zodiac. im just providing a small example of parallel writing types. alone the example is small but i will try to notice any comparison like this to add to the stockpile of examples if they can be found. as i find any i will share them.
no matter which suspect wrote it……….will the real zodiac please stand up? lol
calman

tahoe27, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:37 pm

I can respect that.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:30 pm

Sandy

I read the letter you posted. It was certainly odd in its tone and word usage. But it didn’t strike me as particularly Zodiac like. Were there specific words or phrases that reminded you of Z, or more just the general tone?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:31 pm

I posted an examaination of the word usage of a Zodiac suspect and the Zodiac, here:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … s-t117.htm

sandy betts, Subject: Z like words Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:32 am

Sandy

I read the letter you posted. It was certainly odd in its tone and word usage. But it didn’t strike me as particularly Zodiac like. Were there specific words or phrases that reminded you of Z, or more just the general tone?

Yes AK, The zodiac wrote in a formal way, and has used the word "Shall" instead of "will", and Shan’t instead of will not. For someone to bring up the fact that this shooting in Vallejo, has put Vallejo back on the map. And that not sense the Zodiac, has there been anything news worthy according to this Vallejo resident, who most certainly has the Zodiac verbiage down to a Nat’s a–.
This guy backed off ,when I started to post on Topix, and would not reply to any questions I asked him. Others who read this on Topix felt the same way that I did. There is no mistaking the formal z like way this guy wrote, to me and a few others anyway. Not everyone will see things as I do , but that is ok. I just wanted some feed back about it. And I thank you , you are the only one so far who has taken the time to comment on it.

calman, Subject: does zodiac really wear glasses Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:12 pm

i know this has been a point of discussion for a while. in the lb police report cecilia shepard ststed that her attacker wore glasses under his hood. in sf the teens put glasses on the zodiac scetch.
did zodiac wear glasses prescribed to him or were they just fake glasses as part of a disguise?
some of the known suspects did and do wear glasses but many never did. so the question remains did zodiac really wear glasses?
calman

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:21 pm

Did the Zodiac need to wear glasses? If true then every witness description of him should include glasses. Or did Zodiac just wear glasses as a sometimes disguise? In that case, some descriptions of him would have glasses and some wouldn’t.

Of course at the Stine scene Zodiac was wearing glasses. And the suspects in the Percy, Aardsma and Santa Barbara cases were seen with glasses, indeed, in all three cases the same type of glasses seem to have been worn – large black or dark reading glasses. The same type of glasses issued to men and women in the Army, and women thought they were so ugly they called them "RPG" ‘s – "Rape Prevention Glasses".

But how do we explain Mageau saying Zodiac did not have glasses? Yet Zodiac still managed to do some pretty effective shooting, which indicates to me he did not need glasses. The Sonoma County Zodiac sketch has no glasses, which I assume is based on the majority of witness statements from there, the man hiding behind trees and spying on the girls at Lake Berryessa did not have glasses and the suspects in the possible Zodiac crimes of Bennallack and Hakari had no glasses.

I deal with the glasses issue in regards to my poi here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … es-t74.htm

But we can discuss the issue generally here if people want to.

Allen did not wear glasses, and for a long time was the prime suspect for many police, so it seems clear that they did not think it absolutely a fact that Z needed glasses.

The fact that Z was sometimes seen without glasses is evidence to me that he did not NEED to wear them.

calman, Subject: zodiac scapegoats Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:18 pm

in one of his cyphers zodiac mentions most dangerous game. just like the book ala kept in his basement. also ala had a wrist watch that was given to him around the time zodiac started using zodiac as his title. it was similaities like this that kept ala in the spotlight of suspicion.
how ironic. and if this hypothesis is correct then zodiac knew ala and did one fine job scape goating him. zodiac knew ala and possibly other suspects. in this scenerio zodiac used his letters and cyphers to lead investigators away from him and toward other suspects. if this is true how very clever. maybe lk knew zodiac also. this could be worth exploring i cant wait for further ideas from our posters about this. ……calman

bayarea60s, Subject: Suspects Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:24 pm

Calman….

On ALA, also when the police did go through his place they found pipe bombs in progress. Not sure if ALA is a worthy suspect any longer, but he definetely was one weird dude.
I think suspects in general and MO’s, esp. with serial’s it can be tricky. Many times when these guys are finally caught they’re not known to police at all. They all seem to be somewhat introverted to some degree, the quiet type, not the life of the party guy, and yet Bundy appeared to be somewhat outgoing, at least for a while.
Does anyone have a good tracking system for RE transactions? I’m interested in someone who was involved in RE, so there must be a ton of hand writing by this POI of interest out there, yet I’ve seen very little and would like to see more. Any ideas in how to track a RE person’s transactions to find their handwriting on transactions?

calman, Subject: to get away with it Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:00 am

many kilers will try to make their killing look like someone else did it. the idea is to try to get away with it. a good interrogator can pick them apart, but what if there was a killer who has mastered the art of scapegoating others? a killer who laughs at other suspects getting shadowed and investigated? a killer who worked out the details of the perfect crime? someone who looks like another person when he does his thing? maybe even driving similar cars.
a killer like that might just get away with it……..calman

bayarea60s, Subject: Setting ALA Up? Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:23 am

Calman…

In 1969 no one knew of ALA being a suspect, except LE, if he was even a suspect then or any other POI. So I don’t this Z’s focus or even knowledge had anything to do with setting anyone else up.

calman, Subject: most outragous misconduct Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:08 am

killers would love nothing more than for someone else to be blamed. it happens a lot. and thats without the killer setting anyone up.

in an online article by alan berlow called "the wrong man" mr berlow writes,

miscarriages of justice range from simple police and prosecutorial error to the most outrageous misconduct, such as the framing of innocent people,

http://speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1231b-1.html here is alan berlows article

also in an article from 48 hour mystery homepage by retired fbi agent gregg mcCrery titled,
"inside a killers mind mcCrery writes,
Most murderers never confess to their crimes, and it’s fair to assume that most don’t care if innocent people are executed in their place.

here is the link, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/01/ … 8586.shtml

as for zodiac, lets say for a moment he had a well thought out plan to make it look like other people. that means he had to know one or more of the people he was doing this to.
zodiac went over board with writing letters cyphers to lead away from who he really is/was
im not saying this hypothesis is the only path to follow but it is a direction to explore.
there are only so many possibilities………calman

, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:44 am

I often feel who better to blame for these crimes than someone people wouldn’t give a damn about. Pick on a decent family man, hard working etc, people would find it hard to believe, pick on a paedophile and hey who really gives a damn. I often wonder what would have happened if ALA had been wearing a Timex.

calman, Subject: the big set up Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:08 pm

figuring out how ala was set up is easy but lets see how another poi could have been set up.
LK seemed to be obsessed with donna lass. when she moved from sf to tahoe he followed soon after. LK lived close to where stine was killed in sf. LK also knew dee. if i was zodiac LK would have made the perfect setup when zodiac killed donna LK looked so suspicious zodiac threw in the peek through the pines card and "set up"
even though this idea is mere theory the more i look at it the more i find to support it as a plausible hypothesis. im still digging and yes who better to throw the blame on than pedophiles and deranged individuals. zodiac had to know something about law enforcement or the judicial system to develop a master plan like this……….calman

bayarea60s, Subject: Master Plan? Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:12 pm

Calman…

I don’t know if I can accept that Z sat out there while alluding cops and writing to them, creating cyphers, killing more people all the while plotting to set up individuals. I think what we see is standard, folks who fall out as suspects for various reasons in a large population, it doesn’t indicate that the perp knows them at all, only that there’s some strange folk at all times in our midst, and through that process they become suspects.
How do you know that LK knew Darlene? I’ve never read any proof of that. I’d be interested cause LK is a poi to me.

calman, Subject: changes his name Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:31 pm

lk always gave an altered version of his name to people everywhere he went. example, barry crane….jerry king etc. in dee’s phone book is listed jerry king with an eddie street adress. its not hard to see who that really is. …..calman ps if there really is a jerry king from eddie st then there was also a larry kane from eddie st how ironic that would be….calman

calman, Subject: re: changes his name Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:35 pm

credit where credit due i got the info on lk changing his name from the lk profile pages on zkiller.com also the same source for dee’s phonebook……calman

bayarea60s, Subject: LK Names Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:47 pm

Calman…

I don’t see where LK ever used the name Jerry King. It’s listed King’s address was 1250 Eddy St. What about Dave Pond he lived at 455 Eddy St., 2 blocks from LK’s 217 Eddy St. address. I’m working on putting together a map of Darlene’s SF buddies. It’s a bit strange she would have friends in the heart of the Tenderloin, to me anyway.

calman, Subject: dee had a lot of male friends Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:04 am

i wonder why dean never got upset about dee’s other male friends. i mean didnt he care? or did he like the idea? something is strange about dean ferrin’s attitude about dee’s other male friends one of whom got shot with her the night she died…….calman

bayarea60s, Subject: Dee’s Boyfriends Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:36 am

Calman…

Time’s were a bit different then, open marriages, multi partners, were accepted in many circles. If you had a problem with that you may be viewed as uptight, not cool. I agree with you, but just sayin how it was sometimes. People were trying to find their ways through these mixed lifestyles.

calman, Subject: dean and dee openess Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:09 am

dean being so acceptable of dee’s "friends" could have been what put her in danger. dean may have been open but not zodiac

bayarea60s, Subject: dean and dee openess Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:49 am

Calman Stated:

"dean being so acceptable of dee’s "friends" could have been what put her in danger. dean may have been open but not zodiac"

Could have been…

bruce3, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:52 pm

Or we can look at a suspect that was a criminal and murderer befoe Z was widely known not years later!A suspect could then model himself after Z and his crimes or that Z was his influence.

, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Mon May 30, 2011 5:43 pm

Sandy

zodio, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:03 am

Just read that letter myself. Z like in a sense but not in some of the words I wouldn’t expect him to use, pill-till, populace, etc. So maybe, maybe not.

, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:41 am

In my opinion one of the utmost and critical parallels to consider in choosing a suspect in the Zodiac crimes is the suspect’s penchant for writing. Whether corresponding to newspapers, authorities, victims or others, the written materials can hold unique clues to an individual’s identity. In the case of Zodiac, there are definitely numerous “known” Zodiac writings, including coded messages which can be used to compare against other "known" writings of any suspect. So much can be learned from what is written.

Whether under his guise as Zodiac or in his true life mode, it is my opinion that we need to be looking for someone who shares the love and/or desire to communicate through writing, someone who is knowledgeable and/or has used code, someone whose writings share similar characteristics in style, format, grammar, punctuation, material, etc.

This, to me, is one of the strongest traits of Zodiac and one that must not be overlooked when searching and/or identifying a potential suspect.

You are absolutely right Linda,this is why i have Ted Kaczynski and Gareth Penn as my prime suspects.

, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:50 am

Sandy

I read the letter you posted. It was certainly odd in its tone and word usage. But it didn’t strike me as particularly Zodiac like. Were there specific words or phrases that reminded you of Z, or more just the general tone?

Yes AK, The zodiac wrote in a formal way, and has used the word "Shall" instead of "will", and Shan’t instead of will not. For someone to bring up the fact that this shooting in Vallejo, has put Vallejo back on the map. And that not sense the Zodiac, has there been anything news worthy according to this Vallejo resident, who most certainly has the Zodiac verbiage down to a Nat’s a–.
This guy backed off ,when I started to post on Topix, and would not reply to any questions I asked him. Others who read this on Topix felt the same way that I did. There is no mistaking the formal z like way this guy wrote, to me and a few others anyway. Not everyone will see things as I do , but that is ok. I just wanted some feed back about it. And I thank you , you are the only one so far who has taken the time to comment on it.

The guy does have the taunting style that the Zodiac had toward the Police.

Luke68, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:30 am

make a list of known zodiac suspects. some will be known for other crimes others not. two that are known for other crimes are ted k and ala. ted k is known for the unabomb kilings. ala went to prison for child molestation. lets use these two as examples. compare each of these two criminals m.o. method of operation to the zodiac killings.
zodiac killed in person all zodiac killings were done up close and personal.
ted k mailed bombs to people. never even seeing the people he killed.
ala was not ever known to kill any children he molested. his victims were never over 12 years old. zodiacs victims were older teens to adult in age.
so when i look at these comparisons it tells me ted k nor ala were the zodiac.
comparing m.o. or method of operation can narrow down the suspect list. the poi suspects that ere never known as criminals would be more difficult to use this particular comparison technique.
calman

I just wanted to go back quickly to the original post. I think it’s important not to confuse MO with ritual. A serial killer can change the way they kill when it’s not part of the need that’s satisfied from the killing. Agreed that in many the killing itself is the ritual (e.g. mutilation, removal of body parts etc.) This is not always the case. I don’t believe that this is the case with Zodiac. Shooting people coldly and calmly at night behind a torch light or from a back seat is far more execution style than up close and personal. LB was different yes but according to BH, Zodiac was shaking and also stated that he had to stab them which sounds almost apologetic. Sure, the targets could have represented what the Zodiac hated or couldn’t have – couples in lover’s lanes – but then there is also Paul Stine. The only leitmotivs running through the canonical murders is the fear created through the media publicity (stating that he would kill children is not necessarily something that Z would do but it is something that would induce terror). Overlay this with themes like water/nature, the small items he possibly retained as mementos and you get an idea of the ritual.

So, based on this, let’s look at one of the POI’s you mentioned, Ted Kaczynski. Ted said he was going to start killing back in sixties. This decision grew out of his intense sexual frustration and having entered college at a very emotionally immature age and exposed to a pretty free and gratuitous sexual environment (for others, not him). It would therefore make perfect sense that the people he started killing, were those that represented his frustration. Perhaps couples trysting in lovers’ lanes. So even if Ted had never become the Unabomber, there is a really good psychological fit for the the attacks at LHR, BRS and LB. In fact, it makes far more sense for Ted to start like this than waiting many, many years before he actually starts killing using bombs. But what starts to happen during this phase, culminating in the murder of Paul Stine? Zodiac starts to satisfy another need – a sense of superiority through control. by fear, of society, via his letter writing.

Now, Ted is a highly intelligent man and as he developed his own belief system outside of any peer group influence (he spent almost no time with his peers at UCB outside of lectures and definitely never engaged with anyone of his intellect after he resigned) he might have found a rationalisation for his state of mind and his killing – his manifesto. This I believe is what could have led directly to his changing of MO – he becomes the Unabomber and quite likely the Tylenol murderer. The MO is different but the ritual as stated above is the same but the higher purpose as it were, magnifies it.

But how/why would Ted remove the sexual symbolism from his killings (women and couples)? Exactly like Alberich in Das Rheingold. To take the gold to make the ring to gain the power to rule the world he must renounce physical love. Remember that Ted used ‘Fischer’ as one of his aliases as the Unabomber – the same name as the person who sung Alberich in the original performance.

There’s a lot more that I think ties Ted to Z via the ritual but as you can hopefully see the MO cannot be used as a reason to exclude a POI.

Drew, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:17 pm

I’ve been looking at back issues of the Albany Knickerbocker News and found an interesting quote from Richard Gaikowski regarding buttons. I’m sure this one would have gotten a few laughs at his newspaper as well.

"But this year Mr. Herzog is going all out, using bumper stickers, billboards, buttons, pamphlets and other gimmicks to get his name before the public in his race to unseat incumbent Republican Representative Daniel E. Button."

, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:04 pm

here is a comparison of a suspect writing to the zodiac’s writing this is just one example of many

http://img130.imageshack

/

i hope i did the image shack correct

calman

Have you noticed that Z starts his printing very neatly and the letters are almost perfectly horizontal for the several sentences or two. Then, it seems to deteriorate and get a little sloppy and starts slanting toward the right.

Somewhere, there are known comparisons of Ted K’s printing side-by-side and Z’s looks almost identical at the beginning but then changes unlike TK’S that remains consistent throughout.

That is why I have concluded that Z and TK are not the same; their m.o. and writing is so different. However, I do wonder if there could possibly be some connection between them.

morf13, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:38 pm

here is a comparison of a suspect writing to the zodiac’s writing this is just one example of many

http://img130.imageshack

/

i hope i did the image shack correct

calman

Have you noticed that Z starts his printing very neatly and the letters are almost perfectly horizontal for the several sentences or two. Then, it seems to deteriorate and get a little sloppy and starts slanting toward the right.

Somewhere, there are known comparisons of Ted K’s printing side-by-side and Z’s looks almost identical at the beginning but then changes unlike TK’S that remains consistent throughout.

That is why I have concluded that Z and TK are not the same; their m.o. and writing is so different. However, I do wonder if there could possibly be some connection between them.

I think the reason his writing changes is because, originally he is trying to hide his writing, or make it look neat and professional, but the longer he writes, the more his true writing style comes out. I think I remember hearing a writing expert saying something like this.

sandy betts, Subject: Re: choosing a good z suspect Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:44 am

here is a comparison of a suspect writing to the zodiac’s writing this is just one example of many

http://img130.imageshack

/

i hope i did the image shack correct

calman

Have you noticed that Z starts his printing very neatly and the letters are almost perfectly horizontal for the several sentences or two. Then, it seems to deteriorate and get a little sloppy and starts slanting toward the right.

Somewhere, there are known comparisons of Ted K’s printing side-by-side and Z’s looks almost identical at the beginning but then changes unlike TK’S that remains consistent throughout.

That is why I have concluded that Z and TK are not the same; their m.o. and writing is so different. However, I do wonder if there could possibly be some connection between them.

I think the reason his writing changes is because, originally he is trying to hide his writing, or make it look neat and professional, but the longer he writes, the more his true writing style comes out. I think I remember hearing a writing expert saying something like this.

Morf and Calman, you are correct, I was told about writing by a LE handwriting expert. In a long letter, the true writing shows up, at about the middle of the letter.

calman, Subject: ted reading the chronicle Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:32 am

in the late sixties when TK was a math professor at berkey i wonder if he read up on everything published about and from zodiac . i can see him say to himself,"hey, that zodiac has a good idea writing to the papers and police maybe i could do that too." lets ask him

sandy betts, Subject: copy cats Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:10 am

All of them seem to be copy cats. I think the Z got his idea about taunting the police, from Jack the Ripper, as well as other things the Ripper did.
He was not inventive, he either saw things or read them, and then did them himself. The only thing that perhaps he did that was different than anyone else that I know of , was to use different weapons.

I choose my poi for the best Z suspect, because he was in the Vallejo area the winter of 68, acted as if he wanted to kill me. Which was foiled by my driving to the nearest Police officers .
I do believe that one of the officers spoke to him, and that is what stopped him from bothering me for a long while.

He is brazen and arrogant as I believe the Z is.
He has all of the characteristics that are known Z characteristics.
I spoke to a young female witness ,who he tried to kill.
Another he followed out side my work, who ended up dead that day. Kathleen Johns said he is the man who she got away from in 1970. Darlene’s relatives said he is her killer.
Handwriting samples that I am told look like his. He has spoken to me in his robot sounding voice.
I don’t see anything missing from the picture of Zodiac.
I have a lot more I could add to my list, but then it would look as if I am off topic, so I won’t continue with anymore.
The question after all was what would be a good Z suspect. My answer was the Zodiac himself.