Welsh Chappie, Subject: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:14 am

The night Stine was shot, we know Officer Fouke saw a WMA on Jackson St. In his report of the incidence one Month later, Fouke said "Possible suspect seen going North on Maple Street into the Presidio". Julius Kahn playgrond and play fields was surrounded & searched that night within minutes of Fouke first spotting Zodiac on Jackson, and nothing and nobody was found. But, skip foreward 38 years and, in an interview for the documentary ‘This is the Zodiac Speaking’, Officer Fouke states the following…

"He (Suspect) was putting his head down when he spotted the police car, and turned into an entrance way of a house. By entrance way, i mean stairs leading up that are concrete to a path that leads to a front door. Never saw him get to the top of the stairs. You want the address of that residence? * (Bleeped out) Jackson Street. I never put it in the report because i assumed that he didn’t live there."

So, naturally the question has to be…. Has anyone got hold of the actual address thats bleeped out and, if so, who resided there/owned the property in 1969?

The purpose of this question and thread is not to argue the weather Zodiac even walked up steps toward a house or not, and why Fouke left it 38 years befor coming foreward with this info? The point is, Fouke has stated that Zodiac walked toward a front door, and that in itself, should be cause to at least try and discover who’s address it was.

The fact that Fouke left it 38 years to disclose this apparant insignificant piece of information does seem to suggest either his memory, with time and age, has altered the events of that night, or some other reason that only he know. But, Fouke’s claim about the man turning into a house on Jackson St becomes very significant when compared with the Oct 18, 1969 article that appeared in The Chronicle….

"The killer of five who calls himself "Zodiac" is a clumsy criminal, a liar and possibly a latent homosexual.

That’s the opinion of homicide detectives assigned to bring in the boastful mass murderer.

And, says Lee, he is a liar.

"His boast of being in the area we were searching while we were searching it is a lie," Lee said. "We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of patrolmen searching the area tree by tree and bush by bush. The dogs are the best in the country.

"A mouse couldn’t have escaped our attention."

In a letter to The Chronicle, Zodiac chided police for not finding him during their search of Julius Kahn Park and a nearby wooded portion of the Presidio.

Lee said the fact that Zodiac failed to mention the dogs and floodlights proves "he wasn’t anywhere in the vicinity."

So, based on the fact Z wasn’t found in JK park, and that its the opinion of The Chief of Inspectors that Zodiac most certainly was not in the vicinity of JK playground and surrounding landscape, wouldn’t this alone give cause to look into Fouke’s claim?

Has anyone been given the address Fouke mentioned in the documentary, and if so, what is the history of the house and its prior occupants?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:29 am

The person to check with would be Mike R.

It may be Fouke was talking about the "dog walker".

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:39 am

The person to check with would be Mike R.

It may be Fouke was talking about the "dog walker".

I’ve never heard Fouke refer to the dog walker, only Pelissetti. Pelissetti says he encountered a man with a dog in the area of Jackson & Maple, the same area where Fouke claims to have seen a WMA, so the locations would be consistant. But Fouke says nothing of the man he saw having a dog. I mean i suppose if the man Fouke saw did have a dog, he’d have no reason to have turned his car around and head to the Presidio when he was informed the suspect was white, because the suspect isn’t likely to have a dog and is more than likely a resident of the area.

Who is Mike R?

Thanks for the advice AK, appreciate it,

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:49 am

Sorry "Mike R" is Mike Rodelli.

Mike interviewed Fouke, and is very knowledgable about the Stine case.

Mike’s POI is "Mr. X", a very successful businessman who lived in the Presidio Heights area. IIRC Mike believes the "dog walker" was Mr. X.

Mike is a member of this site.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:56 am

Sorry "Mike R" is Mike Rodelli.

Mike interviewed Fouke, and is very knowledgable about the Stine case.

Mike’s POI is "Mr. X", a very successful businessman who lived in the Presidio Heights area. IIRC Mike believes the "dog walker" was Mr. X.

Mike is a member of this site.

Ok i’ll message him to see if he has any details. Thanks again.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:23 am

At 1:17:50 Officer Pelisetti describes seeing a man walking his dog. Given the time frame I do not see how this man could possibily be Zodiac. He was also older and thinner than the description, with no blood on him. But more importantly, since Zodiac did not have a dog in the cab, how could this be Zodiac? Certainly it would be impossible for Zodiac to go home, clean up and get his dog within seconds.

[flash(425,350)] http://www.youtube.com/v/HI0jnsbZwys [/flash]

At 1:23:00 Fouke strongly denies stopping and talking to a man that night.

At 1:26:00 Pelisetti explains that area is very well lit and that if the man Fouke talked to or saw was Zodiac he would have been covered in visible blood, therefor, Pelisetti feels the man Fouke saw/talked to was NOT Zodiac.

At 1:28:00 Fouke does say the man he saw but did not talk to walked up to the pathway which led to a house on Jackson Street.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:52 am

At 1:17:50 Officer Pelisetti describes seeing a man walking his dog. Given the time frame I do not see how this man could possibily be Zodiac. He was also older and thinner than the description, with no blood on him. But more importantly, since Zodiac did not have a dog in the cab, how could this be Zodiac? Certainly it would be impossible for Zodiac to go home, clean up and get his dog within seconds.

[flash(425,350)] http://www.youtube.com/v/HI0jnsbZwys [/flash]

At 1:23:00 Fouke strongly denies stopping and talking to a man that night.

At 1:26:00 Pelisetti explains that area is very well lit and that if the man Fouke talked to or saw was Zodiac he would have been covered in visible blood, therefor, Pelisetti feels the man Fouke saw/talked to was NOT Zodiac.

At 1:28:00 Fouke does say the man he saw but did not talk to walked up to the pathway which led to a house on Jackson Street.

Yeah i have watced that documentary countless times, especially the Stine incident segment because so much of what AP & DF say doesn’t seem to add up and, in some instances, outrite contradict each other. As i said in my original reply, i knew Pelissetti had mentioned seeing a man with a dog at Jackson & Maple, but not Fouke.
Another question is, if the man with a dog was at J & M and spoke to AP, then where had he gone when Fouke came up Jackson a minute or so later? The male with a dog wasn’t there, and instead it seems a man matching the suspects description was walking in the area. What’s your opinion AK, two seperate people, or the same man? I have always wondered how, if Pelissetti got down to the intersection of J & M and saw nobody other than a man with a dog, turned and went back up Jackson (not passing anyone on the way back up Jackson), then where did the WMA matching the suspect description come from for Fouke to encounter him, but Pelissetti not? It’s not logical for AP to walk to J & M, see nobody other than a man with a dog, turn and walk back up J street, then a minute or two later, Fouke come driving up Jackson and see a man fitting the suspect description at J & M intersection. Where did this man come from, considering he would have needed to pass Pelissetti as he went back up Jackson st if he came from that way?

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:02 am

But the most troubling aspect in their account in the documentary you have posted is, Pelissetti says that he was made aware of the suspect being White by the teen witness as soon as he arrived on scene, and he ‘couldln’t get to the radio fast enough to let everyone else know’, suggesting he gave out the updated broadcast straight away. After doing so, he then says he walked down Cherry, turned right onto Jackson, went down to Jackson and Maple, saw the dog walker, then decided to turn and head back up Jackson, and left onto Cherry and it was at this point, according to the documentary, that Fouke pulls up and is informed by AP that the suspect is white. But, he’d already broadcast an update before he went down to Jackson and Maple and back, so how could Fouke not have heard the update?

smithy, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:56 am

Pelisetti was in a hurry to tell his dispatcher that the suspect was white – he wasn’t radio’ing everyone else to let them know directly.
It’s quite possible that he told dispatch, went off walking, and saw officer Fouke before the "he’s a white guy" news was broadcast, I guess.
Well – that’s got to be possible, since it seems to be what happened.
Or Fouke missed the broadcast perhaps.
:scratch:

Meanwhile!
On the other thread you asked:

Just wondering if anyone could clarify something for me. In Fouke’s Nov 12 report, he states that "Possible suspect had been seen going North on Maple St into the Presidio." I’ll pretend it’s because i am not American that i don’t know the answer, and nothing to do with me just being completely clueless when it comes to Cardinal Directions, and ask….
Can you go North on Maple St and end up at Julius Kahn playground?

I’m pleased you asked mate!
I’m not used to these streets laid out in squares (blocks!) either – and nor can I figure out Google maps well enough to suss out where North is.

Which means I’ve another question. If Fouke saw a possible subject going North on Maple, where was he when he says he saw that (same?) subject go up the steps toward the entrance of a house on Jackson. Hmmmm?
Was he on the corner of Maple and Jackson, looking in his rear view mirror, driving South toward the cab down Maple? (On the wrong street!)
Driving West on Jackson, ready to turn South onto Cherry Street?
And did the radio instructions give the correct location, rather than "Over by Washington and Maple?"

It’s all highly confusing.

I think a map with a cab on, and a little graphic of a police car too, would be nice.
I vote for Trav to help out here.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:52 am

It’s in the pipeline believe it or not.

I’ve been reading Z’s and the police destructions and taking measurements and stuff.

Regarding the topic of this thread. I’ve never seen any mention of it having been checked out which either means it wasn’t but more likely it was and proved to be nothing other than confirming that there was no access to the rear from the front of that address anyway. I think if there had been any significance to it we MIGHT have heard.

I also suspect that Fouke and Zelms missed the broadcast because they were having coffee n’ donuts with Z at the time. :suspect:

Welsh Chappie wrote:

Just wondering if anyone could clarify something for me. In Fouke’s Nov 12 report, he states that "Possible suspect had been seen going North on Maple St into the Presidio." I’ll pretend it’s because i am not American that i don’t know the answer, and nothing to do with me just being completely clueless when it comes to Cardinal Directions, and ask….
Can you go North on Maple St and end up at Julius Kahn playground?

NO is the short answer. It will take you to the Presidio but then the playground is one block east or to your right.

OOPS highlighting the murder scene made some street names vanish. Here they are back in.

morf13, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:16 am

I dont even believe that ever happened. I dont believe Fouke when he states this happened.

smithy, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:33 am

I dont even believe that ever happened. I dont believe Fouke when he states this happened.

Watching the guy walk up a set of steps to a house on Jackson, Morf? Neither do I. I think that’s baloney. I wonder why he said it?

Trav – is that yellow pin in the wrong place? What’s it – the cab location? On Spruce? Eh?
I hate geography.
Not to put upon you – much – but would a Google view in "map" mode be easier to see do you think? The satellite view’s horrible.
And if you’d like me to go and get stuffed just say, and I’ll give it a go myself.

Drew, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:14 am

Wondering if this could be some attempt on his part to cover for not stopping/apprehending the guy — like saying, it was just a normal-looking guy walking up the steps to his house. What was I supposed to do?

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:15 am

Hm..I don’t see any reason why Fouke should have lied..he even had described the stairs, the concrete pathway and the number of the house – not to forget also that the Bloch family was in criminal youth supportive activities..had posted it before.

QT

morf13, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:51 am

Hm..I don’t see any reason why Fouke should have lied..he even had described the stairs, the concrete pathway and the number of the house – not to forget also that the Bloch family was in criminal youth supportive activities..had posted it before.

QT

Why did he never mention it before that documentary? Why is it not in his report?

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:26 pm

Red dot crime scene

Green dot – roughly where he was spotted

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:30 pm

Hm..I don’t see any reason why Fouke should have lied..he even had described the stairs, the concrete pathway and the number of the house – not to forget also that the Bloch family was in criminal youth supportive activities..had posted it before.

QT

Why did he never mention it before that documentary? Why is it not in his report?

Exactly. For someone who seems to have a good memory and is so thorough in his reports ("Welsh ancestry", "pleated pants"), it makes no sense at all for him to leave out the house the suspect approached! Drew may have hit on a motive. This became the most famous murder in SF history and eventually became the most famous unsolved serial murder case in America. Fouke may wrestle with feelings of guilt, blame, saving face. Maybe the suspect did walk by the house, but decades later he embellishes, or misremembers, the suspect approaching the house as if to say "Hey the guy lived in the neighborhood, why would I think he was Zodiac, I was looking for a black male."

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:36 pm

Welsh Chappie wrote:

Just wondering if anyone could clarify something for me. In Fouke’s Nov 12 report, he states that "Possible suspect had been seen going North on Maple St into the Presidio." I’ll pretend it’s because i am not American that i don’t know the answer, and nothing to do with me just being completely clueless when it comes to Cardinal Directions, and ask….
Can you go North on Maple St and end up at Julius Kahn playground?

NO is the short answer. It will take you to the Presidio but then the playground is one block east or to your right.

Maple takes you straight to the park There is even a pathway for easy access. Zodiac doesn’t say "playground" and neither does Fouke. Fouke only states "into the Presidio"…..in the area of the playground. Which Maple St. is.

Maple St. entrance:

smithy—regarding google maps. North is ALWAYS at the top.

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:42 pm

I believe that if that was the Zodiac they saw go up those stairs, it was to make them think he lived there when he didn’t. If he was the Zodiac he wouldn’t go towards a house that he knew officers could see him go into , that would be stupid. He had to pretend he lived there, so he wouldn’t be caught is how I see it.
Not noticing any blood on dark clothes would be easy to miss. What if he had on two pairs of pants like Mike M did ? He could slip out of the blood soaked pair, fold them up put them under his jacket couldn’t he ?

I don’t think Mr. X had enough time to clean up ,change his clothes ,get the dog put on a leash and start walking down Jackson st to see what was going on, before the police who were very close at that time got the APB.

I thought I read that the police saw the possible suspect walking north on Jackson walking towards Maple, not him walking north on Maple ? Please correct me if that is wrong, I don’t want to read that police report again after I just re read both reports on the Lake B case. Thanks

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:47 pm

Sandy–Fouke states here is saw the subject "TURN NORTH ON MAPLE":

http://zodiackiller.com/FoukeReport.html

I don’t think Zodiac had to have hardly too much blood on his pants at all. Especially if he WAS in the back seat.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:51 pm

Lets keep discussion on the Maple street/park entrance question on that thread, and leave this for the Jackson street hosue question. Otherwise it is confusing. Its all confusing enough anyway!

Sandy I agree with you that Mr.X would not have enough time to change clothes and get a dog.

I don’t agree that blood would not be seen. If Zodiac was wearing a blue windbreaker and rust colored pants, if the area was well lit, or even moderately lit, you would see blood. Look at the crime scene pictures. You see blood and light and dark surfaces. I suppose it is possible Zodiac came prepared with an extra jacket or pants.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:52 pm

Sandy–Fouke states here is saw the subject "TURN NORTH ON MAPLE":

http://zodiackiller.com/FoukeReport.html

I don’t think Zodiac had to have hardly too much blood on his pants at all. Especially if he WAS in the back seat.

That is a good point about Z being in the back seat. But at that close a range blood will spatter. But also he then cut part of Stine’s shirt, it seems he would get some blood on him.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:01 pm

Sandy–Fouke states here is saw the subject "TURN NORTH ON MAPLE":

http://zodiackiller.com/FoukeReport.html

I don’t think Zodiac had to have hardly too much blood on his pants at all. Especially if he WAS in the back seat.

That is a good point about Z being in the back seat. But at that close a range blood will spatter. But also he then cut part of Stine’s shirt, it seems he would get some blood on him.

It wouldn’t splatter on your pants if you were in the back seat. There might have been blood on the back of his pants from sitting down on some of it. I would think Zodiac smarter than letting a pool of blood soak up his pants when he would be walking out of the area.

I tend to go by what reports say at the time. What Fouke says years later I just don’t have confidence in. Zodiac absolutely could not have been seen by Fouke going up to a house on Jackson AND turning North on Maple.

There could have been clues at that house. Maybe bloody foot prints, a dropped piece of evidence….something. To not say anything would be in very bad practice. Then later say he assumed he went North on Maple and into the park? Nah.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:11 pm

It could possibly worse than that T. He could have been in the grounds of that property throughout the search.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:13 pm

TAHOE: "I tend to go by what reports say at the time. What Fouke says years later I just don’t have confidence in. Zodiac absolutely could not have been seen by Fouke going up to a house on Jackson AND turning North on Maple."

AK Wilks: Right. Generally speaking, absent an exceptional circumstance, FIRST reports are usually more accurate. They are closer in time and thus memory is likely better. And they have much less chance of contamination, influence from others, influence from media reports, self influence or self protection, or change in statement because of new events or perceptions.

I apply the first is usually best rule to the descriptions from Mageau and Johns as well. And I certainly think it fits here with Fouke.

sandy betts, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:20 pm

Thanks Tahoe, It was thought that blood would have gotten on him, while he was seen in the front seat going through Stine’s pockets and wiping down the front of the cab, is what most think, before it was learned that Z was in the front seat when he shot Stine. I thought it had been proven that Zodiac was seen in the front seat, not the back seat as first thought? That there wasn’t any blood where Zodiac had been sitting when Stine was shot is how that was proven? That had been hashed over at Zkiller some time ago.
If you have the link showing that Zodiac was in the back seat please post it, that would be very significant !

The brother of Victor Shanterelli ( not sure if that is the correct spelling? ) lived on Maple , The house on Washington and Cherry was occupied by the other brother Shanterelli and his family. Not Robt Hunter as told by Harry Martin. Interesting coincidence that both areas had that family connection ?

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:26 pm

Thanks Tahoe, It was thought that blood would have gotten on him, while he was seen in the front seat going through Stine’s pockets and wiping down the front of the cab, is what most think, before it was learned that Z was in the front seat when he shot Stine. I thought it had been proven that Zodiac was seen in the front seat, not the back seat as first thought? That there wasn’t any blood where Zodiac had been sitting when Stine was shot is how that was proven? That had been hashed over at Zkiller some time ago.
If you have the link showing that Zodiac was in the back seat please post it, that would be very significant !

Paul was slumped over the entire front seat. I don’t know how there couldn’t have been blood found there when they slid Paul’s body out of the cab.

IMO, there is no way to prove Zodiac did not sit in the backseat, unless someone saw him get it in….which I have yet to read.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:31 pm

It could possibly worse than that T. He could have been in the grounds of that property throughout the search.

If he was REALLY seen by Fouke going there, I don’t think he would have stuck around.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:55 pm

Pelisetti was in a hurry to tell his dispatcher that the suspect was white – he wasn’t radio’ing everyone else to let them know directly.
It’s quite possible that he told dispatch, went off walking, and saw officer Fouke before the "he’s a white guy" news was broadcast, I guess.
Well – that’s got to be possible, since it seems to be what happened.
Or Fouke missed the broadcast perhaps.
:scratch:

Meanwhile!
On the other thread you asked:

Just wondering if anyone could clarify something for me. In Fouke’s Nov 12 report, he states that "Possible suspect had been seen going North on Maple St into the Presidio." I’ll pretend it’s because i am not American that i don’t know the answer, and nothing to do with me just being completely clueless when it comes to Cardinal Directions, and ask….
Can you go North on Maple St and end up at Julius Kahn playground?

I’m pleased you asked mate!
I’m not used to these streets laid out in squares (blocks!) either – and nor can I figure out Google maps well enough to suss out where North is.

Which means I’ve another question. If Fouke saw a possible subject going North on Maple, where was he when he says he saw that (same?) subject go up the steps toward the entrance of a house on Jackson. Hmmmm? Was he on the corner of Maple and Jackson, looking in his rear view mirror, driving South toward the cab down Maple? (On the wrong street!)
Driving West on Jackson, ready to turn South onto Cherry Street?
And did the radio instructions give the correct location, rather than "Over by Washington and Maple?"

It’s all highly confusing.

I think a map with a cab on, and a little graphic of a police car too, would be nice.
I vote for Trav to help out here.

Smithy, i don’t think Fouke is claiming he saw a man walk up steps to a house, aswel as a man going North on Maple. I think, and it’s just my opinion, that Fouke is changing his story from ‘Last seen heading North on Maple’ to ‘Last seen heading up steps to a house’. I could, of course, be completely wrong in this assumption and Fouke may very well be describing two separate incidents he observed that night, but i just assumed Fouke was changing his account. But the key word there is….Assumed

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:14 pm

My first reaction when i heard Fouke’s claim that the man he had seen had actually turned into a house was that he was saying this because he was fed up of the same question being asked over & over, that being "Did Fouke really stop and speak to the man on Jackson St?" I thought this latest ‘version’ was an attempt by him to try and show that not only did he not stop and speak to the man, but that actually, he couldn’t have anyway because as they were driving up Jackson toward Maple, the man turned and ascended some concrete steps and toward a front door. A kind of ‘He had gone into a drive way by the time we had got to where he was, so we did not, and in fact, could not, have questioned this gentleman’.

Again, this is simply just my own theory of why Fouke makes this claim 38 years after the fact.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:37 pm

Anyway, that issue aside, i would like to get users opinions on the second question in the post.

Weather Fouke last saw the suspect go up some steps toward a house, heading North on Maple toward the Presidio, or both, doesn’t really affect the fact that a search effort, involving seven dogs, a small army of officers, search lights with the area surrounded, failed to flush out a hidden suspect
My own personal opinion, even before Fouke’s claim that the man went up some steps, was that Zodiac was not in the JK area of the Presidio that night. Having seen what search & rescue, bloodhounds & sinffer/tracker dogs can locate, i have to agree with Chief Marvin that to escape being detected by one dog in that fairly small sized area would be difficult, but seven!! Not a chance. I agree with Marvin’s claim ""His boast of being in the area we were searching while we were searching it is a lie," Lee said. "We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of patrolmen searching the area tree by tree and bush by bush. The dogs are the best in the country. A mouse couldn’t have escaped our attention."

Now i’m not suggesting this adds validity to Fouke’s ‘He went up some steps to a house’ report. If we disregard Fouke’s claim, the question is still one that needs to be answered. So, i have two questions i’d like to ask/discuss.

1. How many of the users believe, as i do, that Z wasn’t in the JK park area? (Just curious to see if theres a majority either way). If you don’t, then second question is fairly obvious.

2. Where would users guess he may possibly have been? Z seemed to offer info to ‘prove’ he was in the area and at the very least, could see certain aspects of the search effort by taunting "Hey blue pig I was in the park — you were useing fire trucks to mask the sound of your cruzeing prowl cars. The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me + they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west"

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:24 pm

I think he could have very well been on the outskirts of that park. It’s quite large actually.

Zodiac was on the east side of the park.

"The dogs never came within 2 blocks of me…they were to the west". Apparently, they only came into the east vicinity twice in a 10 minute period.

Then you have motorcycles going by about 150ft. away, south to northwest.

I think Zodiac was near the yellow X. The yellow arrows are near where the motorcycles were traveling:

How more descriptive could Zodiac be? And they still thought he was full of it.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:37 pm

If Zodiac DID go up to a house on Jackson, I think he would have mentioned that. Something like "I fooled them and walked up to a house".

I think Zodiac offered everything he could to prove where he was and what he saw. The cops just didn’t want the public to think Zodiac had the upper-hand. He obviously did.

StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:48 pm

Didn’t Robert Hunter live close by in the area ?

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:51 pm

The house in question was 3712 Jackson, IIRC.
It was listed in 1968 & 1969 Polks Directory as owned and resided in by Mr and Mrs Frederich G Bloch.

She sat on a Juvenile Probation Board and he was in Textiles/Fabrication and " Investments".

His possible relatives in the area included a Nobel Prize winning UC Berkeley & Stanford University Physicist.

That is all I have been able to dig up on the address in question as stated by Pellisetti.

IBF

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:56 pm

I think he could have very well been on the outskirts of that park. It’s quite large actually.

Zodiac was on the east side of the park.

"The dogs never came within 2 blocks of me…they were to the west". Apparently, they only came into the east vicinity twice in a 10 minute period.

Then you have motorcycles going by about 150ft. away, south to northwest.

I think Zodiac was near the yellow X. The yellow arrows are near where the motorcycles were traveling:

How more descriptive could Zodiac be? And they still thought he was full of it.

I know the park area is fairly large, but have you seen what one dog can do if it picks up a scent to follow? These dogs i have seen find missing children in forrested areas 15 times the size of the Presidio. But i have to wonder, did any of the K9 Officers take the dogs to the taxi first to allow them to pick up on the scent. If one of thoes dogs picked up the scent of Zodiac going into the Presidio and he was in there, that dog would have tracked it all the way to him. The only way a dog will lose a trail if it is tracking one, is if the suspect has gone through a bed of water (River, Canal, Lake etc), or if the suspect got into a car and drove off. I’ve seen these dogs in action, first hand, and Chief of Inspectors Marvin Lee is not exaggerating when he says "A mouse couldn’t have escaped our attention".

And yes, Zodiac did seem to offer proof he was there by describing the location of the police cars, the motorcycles going by, the fire trucks using their sirens to mask the sound of the Police cars etc. But that doesn’t mean that he must have been telling the truth when he said "Hey blue pig I was in the park". I cannot see how if he was anywhere out there, the dogs wouldn’t have found him. Where ever he was, he could view the activities that were going on, but i don’t think he was in the park, or any surrounding fields. It brings to mind something FBI profiler John Douglas said in an interview i watched him give recently. He spoke about Gary Ridgway returning to the scene of the crime and to the body. Son of Sam David Berkowitz saying he visited the graves of every one of his victims. And in the very famous British case of ten year old girls Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, who vanished without a trace, Ian Huntley gave an interview to the live news team recounting that he was the last man to have seen them alive, and how he saw them walk off down the street after they had called at his home looking for their school teacher (Huntleys Girlfriend). Huntley described how the whole town was affected by the girls apparant abduction. Then of course, it turns out he had killed them. So, could Zodiac have picked that location in Presidio Heights because he could go somewhere safe to watch the aftermath of his crime unfold? Did he no longer feel satisfied seeing the reaction in the newspapers, and wanted to get a look at the response he got first hand? That seems lie something that Zodiac’s ego would relish.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:06 pm

Any relation to ‘Psycho’ author Robert Bloch? What is the name of the Nobel Prize winner? And ear/ons escaped detection from bloodhounds on his trail as have some prison breakouts. And they had no clothes from Z to get a scent. I think Z was in the park and SFPD did not want to look even worse than they already did.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:06 pm

….But i have to wonder, did any of the K9 Officers take the dogs to the taxi first to allow them to pick up on the scent.

No, they did not. I have asked that question before, and was told no. The dogs were not allowed near the crime scene or offerened any scent. I think if they were they would have at least followed Zodiac’s trail.

I think Zodiac was probably just sitting in his parked car up on that hill to the east, just waiting to drive right on out of there, watching it all unfold off in the distance.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:19 pm

….But i have to wonder, did any of the K9 Officers take the dogs to the taxi first to allow them to pick up on the scent.

No, they did not. I have asked that question before, and was told no. The dogs were not allowed near the crime scene or offerened any scent. I think if they were they would have at least followed Zodiac’s trail.

I think Zodiac was probably just sitting in his parked car up on that hill to the east, just waiting to drive right on out of there, watching it all unfold off in the distance.

AK, i can’t agree that Z was some sort of ‘Hide and go seek’ World Champion.

I agree Tahoe with that being a more likely scenario that Zodiac being surrounded and become a sort of stealth ninja that could avoid being detected by a truckload of SFPD officers, especially with the whole area flooded with search lights.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Criminals escape canine detection every day. He may have been in a car a backyard or a park tree.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:36 pm

Criminals escape canine detection every day. He may have been in a car a backyard or a park tree.

Yes, i said they often do….if the suspect has A, ran through a bed of water, or B, got into a vehicle and left the scene or driven even a short distance.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:41 pm

They never followed a trail at all though….so they had nothing to begin with. If dogs had a scent, they would have at least followed it somewhere. Instead, they started in the park just looking for anyone.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:42 pm

But the image Zodiac being up a tree clinging to some branch did make me laugh though. Not laughing at your suggestion so much as the image of The Zodiac sat on the branch of a tree up in the air. And is that really the most sensible decision to for Zodiac to make if the whole area is lit with very powerful search lights?

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:43 pm

They never followed a trail at all though….so they had nothing to begin with. If dogs had a scent, they would have at least followed it somewhere. Instead, they started in the park just looking for anyone.

That isn’t going to do much good is it, with 30 plus (i’m guessing at the number) Officers all rushing round searching.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:00 pm

WC hiding in cover could mean bushes or trees. Have you ever chased suspects? Sometimes they climb trees or houses. Zodiac said he hid from ‘cover’ and based on the little we know I think he could be telling the truth. TK recorded he hid in ‘cover’. Lots of criminals and escaped prisoners elude canine even without water or a car. I agree with tahoe if these dogs did not even have a scent in more like keysone cops not super tv cops who always get their man.

StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:02 pm

They never followed a trail at all though….so they had nothing to begin with. If dogs had a scent, they would have at least followed it somewhere. Instead, they started in the park just looking for anyone.

Agree had the dogs had the scent we would know what route Z took and if he left in a vehicle at some point in my opinion. Dogs are that good

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:12 pm

I have been thinking recently about the ‘Fouke spoke to Z vs Fouke just drove past’ debate. While i have always believed Fouke did speak to Zodiac, one things doesn’t quite fit. At the time Stine was shot, and the next day, this was simply a routine Cab robbery gone wrong and ended up a homicide. Then, two days after the murder, Zodiac lets the World know this is by no means a simple, routine cab driver robbery/homicide, and that he was responsible, even enclosing a blood soaked piece of Paul’s shirt to leave no room for doubt.

Is it really likely, even plausable, that Zodiac would be so eager to inform the World it was he who was behind this event, if "this cop car pulled up + one of them called me over + asked if I saw anyone acting suspicious or strange in the last 5 to 10 min?"

I don’t know. I know that if i had been ‘Called over to speak with Officers’ who had therefor clearly seen my face and heard my voice, i would not want to write a letter within 2 days of that encounter saying i was actually the elusive serial killer and most wanted man in SF. While on the one hand it does make the Police look incompetent, yes. But on the other, your admitting to being the murderer who spoke with two Police Officers on the night, who you know have seen your face to create a composite, but more importantly, will probably recognise you should you see them again and will certainlly be on the lookout for you now.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:39 pm

1. How many of the users believe, as i do, that Z wasn’t in the JK park area? (Just curious to see if theres a majority either way). If you don’t, then second question is fairly obvious.

2. Where would users guess he may possibly have been? Z seemed to offer info to ‘prove’ he was in the area and at the very least, could see certain aspects of the search effort by taunting "Hey blue pig I was in the park — you were useing fire trucks to mask the sound of your cruzeing prowl cars. The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me + they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west"

I believe he was watching the search unfold from the safety of his car.

I don’t know. I know that if i had been ‘Called over to speak with Officers’ who had therefor clearly seen my face and heard my voice, i would not want to write a letter within 2 days of that encounter saying i was actually the elusive serial killer and most wanted man in SF. While on the one hand it does make the Police look incompetent, yes. But on the other, your admitting to being the murderer who spoke with two Police Officers on the night, who you know have seen your face to create a composite, but more importantly, will probably recognise you should you see them again and will certainlly be on the lookout for you now.

I guess the need to rub it in SFPD’s collective face outweighed the need for Zodiac to stay on the down low. His conduct may also reflect him being supremely confident that despite having a physical description, prints and ballistics, the police would never catch him. This strengthens my theory that his identity has yet to be revealed, with not even a whiff of him ever showing up on the cops’ radar to date.

If Zodiac did speak to Fouke and Zelms, I very much doubt he approached within ten feet. The likeliest scenario is them slowing down and speaking with a Zodiac who was standing twenty feet or more away from the car.

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:55 pm

1. How many of the users believe, as i do, that Z wasn’t in the JK park area? (Just curious to see if theres a majority either way). If you don’t, then second question is fairly obvious.

2. Where would users guess he may possibly have been? Z seemed to offer info to ‘prove’ he was in the area and at the very least, could see certain aspects of the search effort by taunting "Hey blue pig I was in the park — you were useing fire trucks to mask the sound of your cruzeing prowl cars. The dogs never came with in 2 blocks of me + they were to the west + there was only 2 groups of parking about 10 min apart then the motor cicles went by about 150 ft away going from south to north west"

I believe he was watching the search unfold from the safety of his car.

I don’t know. I know that if i had been ‘Called over to speak with Officers’ who had therefor clearly seen my face and heard my voice, i would not want to write a letter within 2 days of that encounter saying i was actually the elusive serial killer and most wanted man in SF. While on the one hand it does make the Police look incompetent, yes. But on the other, your admitting to being the murderer who spoke with two Police Officers on the night, who you know have seen your face to create a composite, but more importantly, will probably recognise you should you see them again and will certainlly be on the lookout for you now.

I guess the need to rub it in SFPD’s collective face outweighed the need for Zodiac to stay on the down low. His conduct may also reflect him being supremely confident that despite having a physical description, prints and ballistics, the police would never catch him. This strengthens my theory that his identity has yet to be revealed, with not even a whiff of him ever showing up on the cops’ radar to date.

If Zodiac did speak to Fouke and Zelms, I very much doubt he approached within ten feet. The likeliest scenario is them slowing down and speaking with a Zodiac who was standing twenty feet or more away from the car.

I agree with the comments you make, all except the highlighted section. Presidio Heights was, and is, an upper middle class, ‘safe’ are affluent area. I don’t think that police would be quite so enclined to shout across the street "Excuse me Sir, have you seem a man with a gun in the area with possible blood soaked clothes?" If they did that, it would cause panic and fear in such a well-to-do neighbourhood. Thats why i think it is more likely that, if they did speak to Zodiac, they either called him over, or motioned him over. If they called him over and he took two steps toward them, and remained twenty feet away, that could appear ‘suspicious’. I think if they called him over, he probably strolled over, appearing cool and calm on the exterior (heart beating so fast he can probably hear it). And this whole issue of ‘Fouke would have seen the blood on him’ etc, i don’t buy that. At night, wearing dark colored trousers, it really would have to be something you were looking for to see it, and this man is a White Male, they have no reason to suspect him of anything. (Point of interest: Fouke did describe the Man as wearing ‘Pleated Pants, RUST in color". That is the color that pants/trousers would likely appear at night if soaked in blood)

Drew, Subject: Re: Has there been any investigation regarding the house on Jackson? Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:23 pm

Chappie, Zodiac did not actually announce that he was the guy the 2 cops spoke with until the November 9th letter. Z would probably want a period of time to find out through the press if the cops had anything more substantial on him and take some time to alter his appearance if he felt it necessary.