I remember one detective saying when talking about armchair detectives “the problem is we have all the information but not enough time, where as they have all the time and not enough information”. I think it fairly obvious at this point that we have only seen a small percentage of the information, unfortunately though you only have to look at the forums to see how much havoc we reek pointing fingers at innocent individuals even to the point of accusing victims of nefarious activities, creating miss information, making extra work for LE and perhaps to a certain extent glorifying the acts Zodiac committed.

I can honestly see why LE don’t share information. To a certain extent we have brought it upon ourselves.

Appreciate that quote and your thoughts on this.

I think what Morf and Richard Grinall touched upon in the podcast is why Zodiac changed his MO for Lake Berryessa. The mask was only to hide his identity and nothing else. The fact Bryan Hartnell survived, ironically added to the hype he so desperately wanted. And i think he was terrified of getting caught.

It had to serve a purpose other than hiding his identity…a ski mask would have sufficed to do that. And why the symbol? Why the square shape? There had to be a reason because the hood would have significantly hindered his peripheral vision, making it more likely that someone could surprise him. If he giving up utility, he had to get something in return, even if was just the jollies of dressing up like a villain. I tend to think he wanted better press after the Manson murders, which begs the question, how would he get that if both victims had died, as he apparently had planned?

You can’t stab someone with a foot long Knife 6 times in the back and want them to survive? It infuriates me when I see articles suggesting the Zodiac seemed more intent on killing the females. 3 of the males were shot in the head and the other was stabbed 6 times in the back! He wanted everyone of his victims to die. Male or Female. The fact Hartnell and Mageau survived is a fucking miracle!

I don’t believe this, but Ray Grant has stated that Zodiac intended for both victims to survive at LB. His rationale… he hogtied them so he could stab them in nonlethal places, but Shepherd moved too much. I agree that it is crazy to think anyone would stab someone multiple times and hope they survive…especially when leaving them hogtied in the elements. But that theory is out there. My question is more why the costume if he intended to kill the victims? It must have meant something to him. If all he wanted to do is conceal his identity, he could have done it many other ways. The hood reduced his peripheral vision, increasing the risk that someone could have happened upon him or that Hartnell could have gone for the gun (which I absolutely would have done while he was tying up Shepherd). So, to sacrifice practicality and utility, he must have derived some other benefit from the hood that he could not get from a ski mask.

I have to agree with you. The mask definitely meant something to him. I’d like to think I’d have done something to overpower him also. But…….let’s be honest we’d have done what Bryan did. His hands were tied, albeit loosely.

I have to agree with you. The mask definitely meant something to him. I’d like to think I’d have done something to overpower him also. But…….let’s be honest we’d have done what Bryan did. His hands were tied, albeit loosely.

I would have taken my chances with getting shot before he could tie my hands. It was pure luck that Hartnell survived in the first place. You might say, "But he thought it was a robbery." I wouldn’t rely on the mercy of a criminal. I have read too many stories where apparent robberies turn into rape/homicides. But there were no good options under those circumstances.

I have to agree with you. The mask definitely meant something to him. I’d like to think I’d have done something to overpower him also. But…….let’s be honest we’d have done what Bryan did. His hands were tied, albeit loosely.

I would have taken my chances with getting shot before he could tie my hands. It was pure luck that Hartnell survived in the first place. You might say, "But he thought it was a robbery." I wouldn’t rely on the mercy of a criminal. I have read too many stories where apparent robberies turn into rape/homicides. But there were no good options under those circumstances.

I don’t think anybody can’t speculate on what actions they would take, in fact it’s possibly disrespectful to even insinuate they would have taken other than wat transpired. Jesus people the Brian was stabbed multiple times and he saw Cecelia mortally wounded, let’s try to show a little respect.

Perhaps our time would better served trying to investigate instead of theories and conjecture.

The theory I like best about the costume is that he was fulfilling a Mikado fantasy by dressing as an executioner. Seems more plausible than expecting the LB victims to be rescued before succumbing to serious injuries.

There must be something to it. This costume had the Zodiac symbol right on it. But it was really more of a Disguise. That could than be used against someone who was known to him, someone like a business partner, who he had a falling out with or there was money in the business.

I have to agree with you. The mask definitely meant something to him. I’d like to think I’d have done something to overpower him also. But…….let’s be honest we’d have done what Bryan did. His hands were tied, albeit loosely.

I would have taken my chances with getting shot before he could tie my hands. It was pure luck that Hartnell survived in the first place. You might say, "But he thought it was a robbery." I wouldn’t rely on the mercy of a criminal. I have read too many stories where apparent robberies turn into rape/homicides. But there were no good options under those circumstances.

I don’t think anybody can’t speculate on what actions they would take, in fact it’s possibly disrespectful to even insinuate they would have taken other than wat transpired. Jesus people the Brian was stabbed multiple times and he saw Cecelia mortally wounded, let’s try to show a little respect.

Perhaps our time would better served trying to investigate instead of theories and conjecture.

So what are you saying?

The Zodiac didn’t have a very good track record when it came to completing the crimes he committed. He was successful in killing both Faraday and Jensen but he lost control at some point because Betty was able to run. He fixed that running by next shooting his victims in a car. Still, he wasn’t successful at this crime either, despite having come back a second time to shoot. Biggest problem for the Zodiac here was that, Mageau, ended up living and giving a partial description. He appears to have come to the conclusion that, despite fixing the problems as they arise, a victim may still live and get a look at him; even if only a partial one. So he attempts to fix all of this at Lake Berryessa. He ties them up so they don’t run. He stabs them rather than shooting them so as not to draw attention to the scene. He wears a mask to hide his identity in case a victim lives. Still, again, a victim lives and was able to give some description of his body and possibly hair color. Everything he has done, from beginning to end, was in attempts to complete the crime, escape, and avoid capture. So the mask is most definitely a tool he used to attempt accomplishing his goals. However, in crimes, a mask can serve a dual purpose as it relates to signature. Signature Aspect represents the underlying emotional needs of the criminal. These needs usually present itself as behaviors or actions that go above and beyond what’s necessary to complete the crime, escape, and avoid capture. While he may have feared, being seen, he didn’t have to wear the mask to commit the crime. He could have stabbed them until they were dead, dead, dead. Sorry for what might seem insensitive to some but I am merely trying to dramatize the actions he could have taken to complete the crime, escape and avoid capture. While Hartnell and Shepard might not have known about the Zodiac or the symbol, that hood complete with symbol, meant something enough for the Zodiac on an emotional level to have crafted and worn it. It was who he had become, for reasons, we haven’t quite figured out yet.

So what are you saying?

Not really sure, I just felt that to say I would have taken the gun is disrespectful to BH. I don’t think anybody knows how they would react in that situation and hopefully none of ever has to find out.

So what are you saying?

Not really sure, I just felt that to say I would have taken the gun is disrespectful to BH. I don’t think anybody knows how they would react in that situation and hopefully none of ever has to find out.

I understand what you’re saying and I fully agree. For what it’s worth, I also think Bryan and Cecelia did the right thing in agreeing to be tied up. Look at it this way: the robber wasn’t going to give them a chance to follow and apprehend him, or follow at a distance and yell for help, or follow until he took the hood off (and then be able to describe him,) or follow him to his vehicle and get the license number. So, the robber needed a way to incapacitate them. Two ways to do that – tie them up or kill them. So, understanding the robber’s desire to get away, I would prefer to be tied up rather than shot.

So what are you saying?

Not really sure, I just felt that to say I would have taken the gun is disrespectful to BH. I don’t think anybody knows how they would react in that situation and hopefully none of ever has to find out.

I knew what you were saying Cragle. I was just Ef’ing with you.

While Hartnell and Shepard might not have known about the Zodiac or the symbol, that hood complete with symbol, meant something enough for the Zodiac on an emotional level to have crafted and worn it. It was who he had become, for reasons, we haven’t quite figured out yet.

The use of a black full body hood may have been used before in the past , by him . We don,t think it was used again by him. But the Symbol was used again, Not just on the victims car door. It was also used to sign off on his letters. Could this be where the idea for the symbol came from ?

The Zodiac didn’t have a very good track record when it came to completing the crimes he committed.

Which is why I say that fighting back might have caused Zodiac to run instead of continue the crime. I think he was a coward who would run from any real fight.

The Zodiac didn’t have a very good track record when it came to completing the crimes he committed.

Which is why I say that fighting back might have caused Zodiac to run instead of continue the crime. I think he was a coward who would run from any real fight.

I agree with the whole coward statement. Most insecure people are weak. Not sure I agree with the rest though. Haven’t read your original post so I will be going by what you wrote above. I don’t think that fighting back caused him to run before they were dead. I think in his mind he thought he had caused enough damage and, given also that they were in a remote location and tied up, that they would ultimately die. He isn’t technically showing a lot of fear here to assume he was running. He does take time out to write on the car door. He doesn’t seem all to concerned. Again, another reason for why the hood was more than just a mask.