I agree with the whole coward statement. Most insecure people are weak. Not sure I agree with the rest though. Haven’t read your original post so I will be going by what you wrote above. I don’t think that fighting back caused him to run before they were dead. I think in his mind he thought he had caused enough damage and, given also that they were in a remote location and tied up, that they would ultimately die. He isn’t technically showing a lot of fear here to assume he was running. He does take time out to write on the car door. He doesn’t seem all to concerned. Again, another reason for why the hood was more than just a mask.

I was just speculating that if Hartnell had went for the gun like he said he wanted to do, I think Zodiac would have run rather than continue the crime. It’s complete speculation on my part. However, I think he knew using a gun up there would attract attention. I don’t think Zodiac was the kind of guy that would willingly enter a fight. I think he would run at the first sign of resistance. And… now that I think of it, the hood would have been a severe liability in a fight… he would have virtually no peripheral or oblique vision. For instance, he probably couldn’t see an obscure strike, like an uppercut, coming in that hood.

I agree with the whole coward statement. Most insecure people are weak. Not sure I agree with the rest though. Haven’t read your original post so I will be going by what you wrote above. I don’t think that fighting back caused him to run before they were dead. I think in his mind he thought he had caused enough damage and, given also that they were in a remote location and tied up, that they would ultimately die. He isn’t technically showing a lot of fear here to assume he was running. He does take time out to write on the car door. He doesn’t seem all to concerned. Again, another reason for why the hood was more than just a mask.

I was just speculating that if Hartnell had went for the gun like he said he wanted to do, I think Zodiac would have run rather than continue the crime. It’s complete speculation on my part. However, I think he knew using a gun up there would attract attention. I don’t think Zodiac was the kind of guy that would willingly enter a fight. I think he would run at the first sign of resistance. And… now that I think of it, the hood would have been a severe liability in a fight… he would have virtually no peripheral or oblique vision. For instance, he probably couldn’t see an obscure strike, like an uppercut, coming in that hood.

Zodiac had gun in hand when Cecilia was tying up Hartnell. The Zodiacs eye holes were apparently big enough to show the color of his hair and how potentially greasy it might have been. I say potentially because I am going from memory and feel I read that. If his eye holes were big enough to show that, then I don’t think the hood would have hindered him a great deal in shooting Hartnell if, he attempted to grab the gun. But we don’t really know if that’s true or if Zodiac would have run because the events never took place. To add we also don’t have the hood.

Zodiac had gun in hand when Cecilia was tying up Hartnell. The Zodiacs eye holes were apparently big enough to show the color of his hair and how potentially greasy it might have been. I say potentially because I am going from memory and feel I read that. If his eye holes were big enough to show that, then I don’t think the hood would have hindered him a great deal in shooting Hartnell if, he attempted to grab the gun. But we don’t really know if that’s true or if Zodiac would have run because the events never took place. To add we also don’t have the hood.

So, anyone who has done any amateur kickboxing or boxing knows that headgear sucks and obscures your peripheral vision. I hate fighting with headgear (I just hate cuts more). I can only imagine how much visibility the Zodiac lost with the hood AND clip-on sunglasses (I wonder if the fogged as he breathed). I think he would have had a hard time in a fight with all that gear and a hood over his head. Maybe the fabric breathed well, I don’t know, but that is my guess. If the hood were turned the wrong way in a struggle, Zodiac would potentially lose all visibility. He would be screwed. My larger point is not to say that Hartnell should have opted to fight, but to highlight the tactical disadvantage that the hood gave Zodiac. Had Hartnell lunged at him, Zodiac might not have been able to get an accurate shot off. So, whatever his reasons were to use the hood, they were not tactical at all. The hood was HUGE liability, which is why I think he opted to talk them into submission.

Z is standing over them with a gun. Bryan and Cecelia are sitting on the ground. I’m not seeing Bryan being quick enough to get up and attack without taking a couple in the chest, which would kill or stop him, followed by more shots killing them both.

Bryan knows Z wants to get away without being followed. One reason a robber wears a hood. typically, is to not be identifiable to his victims, who he plans to leave alive. Robbers who kill their victims need not conceal themselves. It is his best chance to allow to be tied up rather than, from a sitting position, try to lunge at that gun.

What I will grant you is there are conflicting inputs. How does a guy who just escaped from a prison have an elaborate hood and bib?

How does a guy who just escaped from a prison have an elaborate hood and bib?

I would like to know why he even bothers to give the story? To me, the story, is as important to his emotional state as the hood.

Soze

Z is standing over them with a gun. Bryan and Cecelia are sitting on the ground. I’m not seeing Bryan being quick enough to get up and attack without taking a couple in the chest, which would kill or stop him, followed by more shots killing them both.

Zodiac probably wouldn’t have expected Hartnell to go for the gun. It might have caught Zodiac by surprise. Guns jam. Shooters miss. A through-and-through through the shoulder or some other non-vital area wouldn’t necessarily stop a determined attacker. It wasn’t fait accompli that Hartnell is killed in the process. That said, I am Monday-morning quarterbacking. But my larger point is that the hood left Zodiac vulnerable, which is why I don’t think he made a rational decision to wear the hood. It was an emotional decision.

I don’t think he made a rational decision to wear the hood. It was an emotional decision.

And so we agree. So what emotional reason did he have for wearing the hood?

Soze

But my larger point is that the hood left Zodiac vulnerable, which is why I don’t think he made a rational decision to wear the hood. It was an emotional decision.

Agreed. I also disagree with people who say it was a disguise to avoid later capture, because, first, I believe he expected Bryan and Cecelia to die and second, walking around with that outfit would only draw attention to him, and not help to conceal him. Further, because he then wrote the message on the car door including the Z symbol, and here he is with the outfit with Z symbol, if he’s caught he’s going to be charged with 3 other murders too.

And so we agree. So what emotional reason did he have for wearing the hood?
Soze

My theory, which is unpopular on this site, is that LB was a completely different fellow, who didn’t know Shooter Z and wasn’t coordinating or working in tandem with him. LB Stabber was some younger guy who was captivated by the Zodiac, who was like a comic book villain come to life, and the LB Stabber decided he wanted to participate too. Between the Zodiac legend which was quickly growing, and his own fantasies, he made himself a costume to wear (as a child might at halloween) and then he went out and played his fantasy. LB has a distinctly immature quality to it and I think that’s part of what we are discussing here. The hood and bib are completely illogical, serve little to no practical purpose, and are in fact a practical hindrance, both in vision and in being quite noticeable to anyone, even if seen from a distance. Besides of course, identifying the wearer/carrier of the costume as the notorious mass murderer.

LB has a distinctly immature quality to it and I think that’s part of what we are discussing here. The hood and bib are completely illogical, serve little to no practical purpose, and are in fact a practical hindrance, both in vision and in being quite noticeable to anyone, even if seen from a distance. Besides of course, identifying the wearer/carrier of the costume as the notorious mass murderer.

What exactly is mature or logical about the "real" Zodiac compared to the Lake Berryessa "impostor"? A serial killer who invents a fantasy persona, who writes letters to the press quoting musical theater, threatens to murder schoolchildren and hides bizarre messages in poorly constructed ciphers, comes across as highly mentally unbalanced and socially abnormal – much like the "impostor" at Lake Berryessa in his costume.

What exactly is mature or logical about the "real" Zodiac compared to the Lake Berryessa "impostor"? A serial killer who invents a fantasy persona, who writes letters to the press quoting musical theater, threatens to murder schoolchildren and hides bizarre messages in poorly constructed ciphers, comes across as highly mentally unbalanced and socially abnormal – much like the "impostor" at Lake Berryessa in his costume.

Shooter Z is a hit man. We know he said nothing to Darlene and Mike and he had little time to say much at LHR or in the cab with Paul.

Stabber Z is very chatty, boasting to Bryan about the gun being loaded, telling him some ridiculous story about having just escaped from prison (apparently stopping to sew the halloween-type costume somewhere along the way,) and so on. He’s described by all the witnesses at LB as being about 10 years younger than the witnesses at PH described Shooter Z. The MO at LB is completely different from the shootings in about a dozen significant ways.

The Shooter Z killings were no-nonsense, perfunctory executions. Stabber Z at LB was dressed up in a silly outfit, with a childish story that he couldn’t wait to tell Bryan.

What exactly is mature or logical about the "real" Zodiac compared to the Lake Berryessa "impostor"? A serial killer who invents a fantasy persona, who writes letters to the press quoting musical theater, threatens to murder schoolchildren and hides bizarre messages in poorly constructed ciphers, comes across as highly mentally unbalanced and socially abnormal – much like the "impostor" at Lake Berryessa in his costume.

Shooter Z is a hit man. We know he said nothing to Darlene and Mike and he had little time to say much at LHR or in the cab with Paul.

Stabber Z is very chatty, boasting to Bryan about the gun being loaded, telling him some ridiculous story about having just escaped from prison (apparently stopping to sew the halloween-type costume somewhere along the way,) and so on. He’s described by all the witnesses at LB as being about 10 years younger than the witnesses at PH described Shooter Z. The MO at LB is completely different from the shootings in about a dozen significant ways.

The Shooter Z killings were no-nonsense, perfunctory executions. Stabber Z at LB was dressed up in a silly outfit, with a childish story that he couldn’t wait to tell Bryan.

This assumes that serial killers can’t evolve or vary MO, which they definitely can. As for eyewitness descriptions:

Blue Rock Springs: “WMA, short, possible 5’8”, was real heavy set, beefy build… not blubbery fat, but real beefy, possibly 195 to 200 [lbs] or maybe even larger… short curly hair, light brown almost blond… with a large face.”

Lake Berryessa: “Cause I saw it from where the goggles fit… I looked so closely to find out. And when he turned you know they kind of flittered… I could see his hair. It looked kinda greasy. I remember when I was first talked to, I mean, I had the guy being a walrus, you know… He had one of those Sears-type of jackets, you know, those can be either lined or unlined, and if it’s lined, a person could be thin, if it’s unlined the person would be heavy… I mean, he’s not obese.”

Presido Heights: “White Male Adult, in his early forties, 5’8", heavy build, reddish-blond ‘crew cut’ hair, wearing eyeglasses, dark brown trousers, dark (navy blue or black) ‘Parka’ jacket, dark shoes."

There as many commonalities as the variances you focus on to support your "impostor" theory.

Marshall has a good comment when he wrote, But IF he got caught he would be charged with 3 murders.
The day of lake Berryessa crime he went to the lake with a plan. He knew the location he brought the knlft, gun, black hood, wingwalker shoes, felt-pen. and he must have tryed something like it before. We don,t think he did again, was that because it was hard to see though with his view partly blocked ?

What exactly is mature or logical about the "real" Zodiac compared to the Lake Berryessa "impostor"? A serial killer who invents a fantasy persona, who writes letters to the press quoting musical theater, threatens to murder schoolchildren and hides bizarre messages in poorly constructed ciphers, comes across as highly mentally unbalanced and socially abnormal – much like the "impostor" at Lake Berryessa in his costume.

Shooter Z is a hit man. We know he said nothing to Darlene and Mike and he had little time to say much at LHR or in the cab with Paul.

Stabber Z is very chatty, boasting to Bryan about the gun being loaded, telling him some ridiculous story about having just escaped from prison (apparently stopping to sew the halloween-type costume somewhere along the way,) and so on. He’s described by all the witnesses at LB as being about 10 years younger than the witnesses at PH described Shooter Z. The MO at LB is completely different from the shootings in about a dozen significant ways.

The Shooter Z killings were no-nonsense, perfunctory executions. Stabber Z at LB was dressed up in a silly outfit, with a childish story that he couldn’t wait to tell Bryan.

This assumes that serial killers can’t evolve or vary MO, which they definitely can. As for eyewitness descriptions:

Lake Herman Road: “WMA, short, possible 5’8”, was real heavy set, beefy build… not blubbery fat, but real beefy, possibly 195 to 200 [lbs] or maybe even larger… short curly hair, light brown almost blond… with a large face.”

Lake Berryessa: “Cause I saw it from where the goggles fit… I looked so closely to find out. And when he turned you know they kind of flittered… I could see his hair. It looked kinda greasy. I remember when I was first talked to, I mean, I had the guy being a walrus, you know… He had one of those Sears-type of jackets, you know, those can be either lined or unlined, and if it’s lined, a person could be thin, if it’s unlined the person would be heavy… I mean, he’s not obese.”

Presido Heights: “White Male Adult, in his early forties, 5’8", heavy build, reddish-blond ‘crew cut’ hair, wearing eyeglasses, dark brown trousers, dark (navy blue or black) ‘Parka’ jacket, dark shoes."

There as many commonalities as the variances you focus on to support your "impostor" theory.

I think you mean Blue Rock Springs, not Lake Herman Road. But compare that and PH: Both 5′ 8", heavy, beefy build, short hair, blondish. Those are pretty similar and from eyewitnesses who weren’t looking at a guy wearing a hood and bib.

The outlier, description-wise, is, yet again, LB.

There are NOT as many commonalities between the shootings and LB. There are very few actually. The main difference to me is that with the shootings, they were not claimed by Z until days later, after he had secured his safe escape. At LB he was announcing he was Z before he even approached Bryan and Cecelia. That is a huge strategical difference, and not an "evolution" because at PH he does not write his identity on or in the car. As with the other shootings, he first escapes, THEN claims it as his work. This is the very reason some think Z was captured or killed while committing another crime – if that happened, nobody would have ever known they’d gotten the Zodiac. But, if Z had "evolved" into walking around proclaiming his Z identity, writing it at crime scenes before escaping, etc., then had he been caught or killed at one of those crime scenes, it would’ve been known that it was the Zodiac.

Most think LB was a Z crime because Stabber Z wrote it on the car door. But we all agree there were hundreds of imposter letters where the imposter claimed to be Z and wrote that symbol on their letter. I think it’s interesting how everybody thinks it’s quite logical there are so many fake Z letters, yet find it incomprehensible there could be a fake Z attack.

Stabber Z is very chatty, boasting to Bryan about the gun being loaded, telling him some ridiculous story about having just escaped from prison (apparently stopping to sew the halloween-type costume somewhere along the way,) and so on.

To my recollection, at Lake Herman, the Zodiac had an approximate 6 minute window to arrive on the scene, commit the deed and, get out of there. A lot can be said and done in 6 minutes. Sadly, we don’t know there was a conversation or what that might have entail. No conversation at Blue Rock Springs. You are right. However, I have now become curious if there is any account of how long the episode at Lake Berryessa took place? Richard. You broke down PH. Did you do a study of Lake Berryessa? Was there enough info?

Stabber Z is very chatty, boasting to Bryan about the gun being loaded, telling him some ridiculous story about having just escaped from prison (apparently stopping to sew the halloween-type costume somewhere along the way,) and so on.

To my recollection, at Lake Herman, the Zodiac had an approximate 6 minute window to arrive on the scene, commit the deed and, get out of there. A lot can be said and done in 6 minutes. Sadly, we don’t know there was a conversation or what that might have entail. No conversation at Blue Rock Springs. You are right. However, I have now become curious if there is any account of how long the episode at Lake Berryessa took place? Richard. You broke down PH. Did you do a study of Lake Berryessa? Was there enough info?

If Z had any conversation with his victims at LHR, it would’ve had to have been when they were in the car, because Faraday was killed as he exited the car and one can assume there wasn’t much chatting with Betty Lou after that.