I think you mean Blue Rock Springs, not Lake Herman Road. But compare that and PH: Both 5′ 8", heavy, beefy build, short hair, blondish. Those are pretty similar and from eyewitnesses who weren’t looking at a guy wearing a hood and bib.
The outlier, description-wise, is, yet again, LB.
Zodiac was described by Hartnell as being heavyset and wearing glasses and a "sears-like" parka jacket at Lake Berryessa. The "impostor" presumably went to the effort of altering his wardrobe and body type to resemble the witness descriptions of Zodiac.
I think you mean Blue Rock Springs, not Lake Herman Road. But compare that and PH: Both 5′ 8", heavy, beefy build, short hair, blondish. Those are pretty similar and from eyewitnesses who weren’t looking at a guy wearing a hood and bib.
The outlier, description-wise, is, yet again, LB.
Zodiac was described by Hartnell as being heavyset and wearing glasses and a "sears-like" parka jacket at Lake Berryessa. The "impostor" presumably went to the effort of altering his wardrobe and body type to resemble the witness descriptions of Zodiac.
Zodiac was also described by Hartnell as being about 28 years old, 10 years younger than the descriptions of the PH shooter. Also, the people who took the phone calls described Shooter Z as being older, LB Z as being younger. Bryan described Z’s hair as greasy, meaning it must’ve had some length to it, as opposed to the short hair described at PH.
Let’s not pick and choose bits and pieces.
Let’s not pick and choose bits and pieces.
Bryan described Z’s hair as greasy, meaning it must’ve had some length to it, as opposed to the short hair described at PH.
Choosing bits and pieces is exactly what you do to support your "impostor" theory, such as choosing to rule out Zodiac getting a haircut between September and October 1969.
Let’s not pick and choose bits and pieces.
Choosing bits and pieces is exactly what you do to support your "impostor" theory. I will leave it at that.
I wish you would elaborate. Besides Stabber Z claiming to be the real Zodiac, why do you think he was? I can give you a dozen reasons why he likely was not.
And if your response is something to the effect that all the myriad differences between LB and the shootings are the very reason it’s the same guy…… that would be pretty lame. If similarities mean it’s the same guy, and differences also mean it’s the same guy, all that is is a conclusion looking for a rationalization.
Zodiac was also described by Hartnell as being about 28 years old, 10 years younger than the descriptions of the PH shooter. Also, the people who took the phone calls described Shooter Z as being older, LB Z as being younger. Bryan described Z’s hair as greasy, meaning it must’ve had some length to it, as opposed to the short hair described at PH.
Let’s not pick and choose bits and pieces.
Personally I don’t think we can hold too much weight in BH’s estimation of age. How was this estimation made ? By the judging of the age of the voice.
All three said Sam’s voice was too young, how old was Sam?
Yes BH thought he could see greasy hair through the hood, then nearly two months later he had short hair. Could the reason for the discrepancy be that because he left a survivor he was paranoid about being identified, and as such he had a hair cut ?
Most think LB was a Z crime because Stabber Z wrote it on the car door. But we all agree there were hundreds of imposter letters where the imposter claimed to be Z and wrote that symbol on their letter. I think it’s interesting how everybody thinks it’s quite logical there are so many fake Z letters, yet find it incomprehensible there could be a fake Z attack.
Yes there have been a lot of “imposter” letters from people who had time to study and copy Z’s handwriting and still despite this they have been confirmed as fake. And yet we have writing on a car door written from a position which would have been difficult enough as it is but the writer still managed to write in virtually exactly the same style as Zodiac.
Zodiac was also described by Hartnell as being about 28 years old, 10 years younger than the descriptions of the PH shooter. Also, the people who took the phone calls described Shooter Z as being older, LB Z as being younger. Bryan described Z’s hair as greasy, meaning it must’ve had some length to it, as opposed to the short hair described at PH.
Let’s not pick and choose bits and pieces.
Personally I don’t think we can hold too much weight in BH’s estimation of age. How was this estimation made ? By the judging of the age of the voice.
All three said Sam’s voice was too young, how old was Sam?
Yes BH thought he could see greasy hair through the hood, then nearly two months later he had short hair. Could the reason for the discrepancy be that because he left a survivor he was paranoid about being identified, and as such he had a hair cut ?
Most think LB was a Z crime because Stabber Z wrote it on the car door. But we all agree there were hundreds of imposter letters where the imposter claimed to be Z and wrote that symbol on their letter. I think it’s interesting how everybody thinks it’s quite logical there are so many fake Z letters, yet find it incomprehensible there could be a fake Z attack.
Yes there have been a lot of “imposter” letters from people who had time to study and copy Z’s handwriting and still despite this they have been confirmed as fake. And yet we have writing on a car door written from a position which would have been difficult enough as it is but the writer still managed to write in virtually exactly the same style as Zodiac.
Lots of people see what they want to see with that car door…
Meaning ?
Meaning ?
"virtually exactly the same style", as you stated earlier, is subjective.
Are there similarities? Yes.
Are there differences? Yes.
If the grandiose, arch-supervillain Z from Lake Berryessa were proven a copycat…well…then numerous theories linking the car door writing to later correspondences go right in the
circular file, like a torn comic book…and much of the mystique of the case goes right with it.
And certain people seem…invested…in those theories.
Are there similarities? Yes.
Are there differences? Yes.
Then why is an outlandish impostor theory that relies on confirmation bias a more believable assumption than a Zodiac costumed killer, who struck in the nearby vicinity of the crime scenes outside of San Francisco and whose appearance matched other witness descriptions in several ways, being the real Zodiac?
If the grandiose, arch-supervillain Z from Lake Berryessa were proven a copycat…well…then numerous theories linking the car door writing to later correspondences go right in the
circular file, like a torn comic book…and much of the mystique of the case goes right with it.And certain people seem…invested…in those theories.
There would still be plenty of mystique surrounding this case even if Lake Berryessa had never happened. I reject the impostor theory because it is contrived and implausible.
Marshall has a good comment when he wrote, But IF he got caught he would be charged with 3 murders.
The day of lake Berryessa crime he went to the lake with a plan. He knew the location he brought the knlft, gun, black hood, wingwalker shoes, felt-pen. and he must have tryed something like it before. We don,t think he did again, was that because it was hard to see though with his view partly blocked ?
You mention a good point with the felt-tipped pen. Correct me if I am wrong, wasn’t the writing on Hartnell’s car door blue felt-tipped pen? If so, was the color of the pen ever released by the newspapers? If not, then I think that is good evidence that Shooter Z and LB Z are the same person.
And so we agree. So what emotional reason did he have for wearing the hood?
Soze
That’s a million-dollar question. I’ll give you my 2 cents answer: I think he probably was acting out an executioner fantasy, which dovetails with the Mikado. There could be some connection with slaves in paradise, an executioner motif, and some medieval, Norse, or Egyptian, mythology woven in.
Marshall has a good comment when he wrote, But IF he got caught he would be charged with 3 murders.
The day of lake Berryessa crime he went to the lake with a plan. He knew the location he brought the knlft, gun, black hood, wingwalker shoes, felt-pen. and he must have tryed something like it before. We don,t think he did again, was that because it was hard to see though with his view partly blocked ?You mention a good point with the felt-tipped pen. Correct me if I am wrong, wasn’t the writing on Hartnell’s car door blue felt-tipped pen? If so, was the color of the pen ever released by the newspapers? If not, then I think that is good evidence that Shooter Z and LB Z are the same person.
Isn’t the writing on the car door thicker than the pen used on the letters? If so it would not be the same, or similar, pen. If you are saying that blue on the car door would be good evidence LB was Shooter Z, does the inverse logic apply?
delete
Most think LB was a Z crime because Stabber Z wrote it on the car door. But we all agree there were hundreds of imposter letters where the imposter claimed to be Z and wrote that symbol on their letter. I think it’s interesting how everybody thinks it’s quite logical there are so many fake Z letters, yet find it incomprehensible there could be a fake Z attack.
Yes there have been a lot of “imposter” letters from people who had time to study and copy Z’s handwriting and still despite this they have been confirmed as fake. And yet we have writing on a car door written from a position which would have been difficult enough as it is but the writer still managed to write in virtually exactly the same style as Zodiac.
There is longstanding debate regarding the authenticity of many possible Z letters, from the Bates confession letter to the 1974 letters and beyond. "Experts" disagree. Yet we are supposed to believe the writing on the car door is conclusively Zodiac. There are exactly EIGHTEEN letters written on that car door. So how is it that entire letters cannot be confirmed or repudiated, but 18 letters written on a car door are conclusive?
I can give you a dozen reasons why I have come to the conclusion Stabber Z and Shooter Z are different people. From what I gather, you are concluding they were likely the same guy based on:
1. Vaguely similar descriptions, despite the fact Stabber Z was concealed behind a mask
2. Eighteen letters on a car door.
There are exactly EIGHTEEN letters written on that car door. So how is it that entire letters cannot be confirmed or repudiated, but 18 letters written on a car door are conclusive?
You make a great point. I have no answer for this. You are correct that you would need a much larger sample of the LB Killer’s writing to make a handwriting match to the letters. So, the writing on the car door is not very good evidence. Now, the content of the writing is another matter. There was no internet in 1969 to look up prior Zodiac murder dates. So, if the LB Killer is a copycat, he had to commit the murder dates to memory from newspaper articles. It’s certainly possible. It just means that a copycat when through a great deal of effort to mimic Zodiac, only to never do so again. Seems like a lot of work for one copycat crime. But it is not impossible.
