The Zodiac took the crime scene to his letter after the Stine murder, he did the reverse at Berryessa taking his writing to the crime scene. There is the similarity in phraseology between the BRS and LB phone calls, but I appreciate that this could be mimicked. Although not conclusive by any means, I would expect somebody attempting to pass himself off as Zodiac during a third attack, make that attack somewhat resemble the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs attacks. I know that there is disagreement on whether Lake Berryessa is a Zodiac crime, therefore I looked at a better reason why he committed such a crime, wearing an extravagant costume and switching to a knife. For me, that answer lay in the August 6th Chronicle article covering a crime which received front page coverage. Despite his three murders, four communications and three cryptograms, the Chronicle & Examiner only afforded him page 4 and page 9 coverage. While searching for updates on his 408 cipher, the Chronicle ran the Snoozy & Furlong murders about two teenage girls on August 3rd 1969 being stabbed in excess of 200 times, described by Dr. John Hauser as "The Nazi sex mutilations during World War II were nothing compared to what was done to these young girls".

The extensive coverage these San Jose murders received must have horrified the Zodiac Killer and he knew that to get the publicity he required, he switched to a more brutal close-quarter attack. This is why, I believe, he wrote "by knife" on the car door, stating "do I get front page coverage now". No surprise he then claimed these murders on November 8th 1969, and followed this up by a December 19th 1969 phone call regarding these murders. Then mailed two communications in 1971 concerning the Snoozy & Furlong murders, along with the Kathy Bilek murder, when Karl Francis Werner was charged for all three. I don’t look at the Lake Berryessa crime through the handwriting and phone call because I know people will claim this is just a copycat, so I looked at the inspiration of the Zodiac Killer to change his method of murder, something that a copycat has less inclination to do.

While searching for updates on his 408 cipher, the Chronicle ran the Snoozy & Furlong murders about two teenage girls on August 3rd 1969 being stabbed in excess of 200 times, described by Dr. John Hauser as "The Nazi sex mutilations during World War II were nothing compared to what was done to these young girls".

There is also reason to believe that Lake Berryessa was motivated by the media coverage given to the Manson Family’s Tate-LaBianca murders. There were strong enough parallels that law enforcement theorized Zodiac was an acolyte of Charles Manson’s operating in northern California. In addition to Snoozy & Furlong, it might explain why Zodiac departed from his comfort zone with the stabbings but returned to a shooting with Stine. How do opportunistic shootings compare to young girls or a heavily pregnant Hollywood actress being gruesomely stabbed to death? Of course Zodiac would have read and watched the media coverage of these crimes ("that wasn’t me on the TV show").

The Manson family murders did occur in the right time frame, so could be part of the equation, but other than a controversial May 2nd 1978 letter, no other communications between 1969 and 1971 made any indirect reference to the Manson murders. But certainly the period of August onwards, could undoubtedly have had an influence on his subsequent actions.

Let’s no forget at the time of the LB attack he had previously left 1 survivor. He didn’t know what MM had seen, if he could have given an in-depth description of Zodiac or his car, even to the extent that Zodiac perhaps feared that MM could recognise Z if passed on the street. A possible partial explanation of the costume, aside from the recent Manson attacks where they were dressed in black. Obviously security would been heavily stepped up in Vallejo and surrounding areas and targets would have been a lot harder to find.

It seems perfectly natural for an attacker to move away from his proven hunting ground in search of new victims. So imagine when searching for new targets he comes across a car with an out of state plate. Surely he would have felt that their would have been less risk involved as chances were they would not be overly familiar with his previous crimes.

The Zodiac took the crime scene to his letter after the Stine murder, he did the reverse at Berryessa taking his writing to the crime scene.

Let’s look at your sentence above. It starts out: "The Zodiac took the cr." Those are the first 18 letters, about one fifth of your sentence. I’ve seen your thoughtful analysis of some of the disputed correspondences, where you make compelling points. Do you honestly think the car door writing – all 18 letters of it, compare conclusively to Zodiac’s confirmed mailings?

For me, that answer lay in the August 6th Chronicle article covering a crime which received front page coverage. Despite his three murders, four communications and three cryptograms, the Chronicle & Examiner only afforded him page 4 and page 9 coverage. While searching for updates on his 408 cipher, the Chronicle ran the Snoozy & Furlong murders about two teenage girls on August 3rd 1969 being stabbed in excess of 200 times, described by Dr. John Hauser as "The Nazi sex mutilations during World War II were nothing compared to what was done to these young girls".

The extensive coverage these San Jose murders received must have horrified the Zodiac Killer and he knew that to get the publicity he required, he switched to a more brutal close-quarter attack.

So, a guy sees that a horrific crime, a sex mutilation and stabbing in excess of 200 times, gets big headlines, so he goes out, stabs a couple people far, far fewer times, no sex mutilation, leaving both victims alive? If that was his inspiration, doesn’t he at least stab each victim 100 times? Or 50? Doesn’t he at least make sure he kills them?

Let’s no forget at the time of the LB attack he had previously left 1 survivor. He didn’t know what MM had seen, if he could have given an in-depth description of Zodiac or his car, even to the extent that Zodiac perhaps feared that MM could recognise Z if passed on the street. A possible partial explanation of the costume, aside from the recent Manson attacks where they were dressed in black. Obviously security would been heavily stepped up in Vallejo and surrounding areas and targets would have been a lot harder to find.

Why not just cut their throats??? Then he ensures he doesn’t make the same mistake as BRS, he doesn’t have to worry what the victims see, doesn’t have to worry if they will one day pass him on the street, and he collects 2 more slaves which is the stated purpose of all of it.

Marshall, you clearly think the difference in MO makes LB not a Shooter Z crime. What about Bates? That is even more different than Shooter Z’s crimes, right? Do you think that is not part of Shooter Z’s killings?

So, a guy sees that a horrific crime, a sex mutilation and stabbing in excess of 200 times, gets big headlines, so he goes out, stabs a couple people far, far fewer times, no sex mutilation, leaving both victims alive? If that was his inspiration, doesn’t he at least stab each victim 100 times? Or 50? Doesn’t he at least make sure he kills them?

The two young girls were not sexually mutilated and I never said they were. The amount of stab wounds was probably not relevant to the Zodiac, just the act of committing a more personal and brutal attack, irrespective of whether the couple died or not. We also don’t know for sure that three girls may have been the initial target. He left several of his victims alive when he left the crime scenes. What was the inspiration for the copycat?

Why didn’t he cut their throats? Why didn’t he just take several magazines to each crime and shoot them 20 times? Why didn’t he just cut their throats after shooting them?

Marshall, you clearly think the difference in MO makes LB not a Shooter Z crime. What about Bates? That is even more different than Shooter Z’s crimes, right? Do you think that is not part of Shooter Z’s killings?

Obviously I don’t know, but my opinion, until someone sways me contrary, is no. I think Cheri was probably killed by an acquaintance, maybe close, maybe distant, but someone she knew. I trust the age estimate of all the PH witnesses who pegged Z between 35-45. I think Cheri’s killer was younger.

I think it’s a better approach to examine the crimes independently so they don’t cross-contaminate each other. However, LHR, BRS, and PH are conclusively linked, and represent the "Real", or "Original" (or what I call "Shooter") Zodiac.

You are just absolutely blind.

So, a guy sees that a horrific crime, a sex mutilation and stabbing in excess of 200 times, gets big headlines, so he goes out, stabs a couple people far, far fewer times, no sex mutilation, leaving both victims alive? If that was his inspiration, doesn’t he at least stab each victim 100 times? Or 50? Doesn’t he at least make sure he kills them?

The two young girls were not sexually mutilated and I never said they were.

While searching for updates on his 408 cipher, the Chronicle ran the Snoozy & Furlong murders about two teenage girls on August 3rd 1969 being stabbed in excess of 200 times, described by Dr. John Hauser as "The Nazi sex mutilations during World War II were nothing compared to what was done to these young girls".

You are right, sorry. When I see Hauser saying the Nazi sex mutilations were nothing compared to what was done to these young girls, I am assuming they were likewise mutilated sexually. But you didn’t say it and he didn’t actually say it either.

The amount of stab wounds was probably not relevant to the Zodiac, just the act of committing a more personal and brutal attack, irrespective of whether the couple died or not.

I’m not sure what the rules are regarding the afterlife, but don’t you have to kill people to collect them as slaves? Or can you just wound them? Because that would create an ambiguity problem. What if Zodiac wounds somebody, and that person is wounded by another maniac… who does that victim then belong to in the afterlife?

Shooter Z meant to kill. He made one mistake, Mageau, and next time out he made da** sure by actually getting in the victim’s car and blowing his brains out.

Marshall, you clearly think the difference in MO makes LB not a Shooter Z crime. What about Bates? That is even more different than Shooter Z’s crimes, right? Do you think that is not part of Shooter Z’s killings?

Obviously I don’t know, but my opinion, until someone sways me contrary, is no. I think Cheri was probably killed by an acquaintance, maybe close, maybe distant, but someone she knew. I trust the age estimate of all the PH witnesses who pegged Z between 35-45. I think Cheri’s killer was younger.

I think it’s a better approach to examine the crimes independently so they don’t cross-contaminate each other. However, LHR, BRS, and PH are conclusively linked, and represent the "Real", or "Original" (or what I call "Shooter") Zodiac.

I totally agree it is best to approach the crimes independently, let’s take Lake Berryessa on its own.

Firstly why would a copycat commit this, when in fact if there were a copy cat (Copy = a thing made to be similar or identical to another.) why use a knife when no other confirmed attacks used this method ? Surely a copy cat would attack couples in lovers lanes ?

Two- “Real” Zodiac stated “It just wouldn’t do to move in on somebody else’s territory. Whilst allowing somebody else to do this exact act to him.

Three- Was the actual Zodiac cross hair symbol ever shown in a paper prior to this attack, there were obviously a few references to it but an actual image to copy from ?

Four- The LB attacker must have been a time traveller as he knew how Zodiac would write the number 8 2 months before he actually wrote that number in a letter. ?

The two young girls were not sexually mutilated and I never said they were. The amount of stab wounds was probably not relevant to the Zodiac, just the act of committing a more personal and brutal attack, irrespective of whether the couple died or not.

If you trust Tom Voigt then you have reason to believe that Zodiac was responsible for the Nancy Bennallack murder in Sacramento, a home invasion killing in which Bennallack was brutally stabbed to death, the overkill and targeting of a lone victim strongly mirroring the Bates murder. An apartment or college campus at night is a much different crime scene to a daylight public park, the latter, riskier situation plausibly causing some inhibition in a nervous Zodiac.

In my opinion he [Foulke] doesn’t want the Z caught at this point. Why would he want his interaction with the Z to make center stage again?

At this point I don’t believe the ages here either. I believe that Foulke, a trained police officer, and the Robbins kids, missed his age by a full 10 years at least; intentionally and unintentionally.

Well, saying Foulke didn’t want the Zodiac caught is a little more controversial than anything I’ve said…

Marshall, you clearly think the difference in MO makes LB not a Shooter Z crime. What about Bates? That is even more different than Shooter Z’s crimes, right? Do you think that is not part of Shooter Z’s killings?

Obviously I don’t know, but my opinion, until someone sways me contrary, is no. I think Cheri was probably killed by an acquaintance, maybe close, maybe distant, but someone she knew. I trust the age estimate of all the PH witnesses who pegged Z between 35-45. I think Cheri’s killer was younger.

I think it’s a better approach to examine the crimes independently so they don’t cross-contaminate each other. However, LHR, BRS, and PH are conclusively linked, and represent the "Real", or "Original" (or what I call "Shooter") Zodiac.

I totally agree it is best to approach the crimes independently, let’s take Lake Berryessa on its own.

Firstly why would a copycat commit this, when in fact if there were a copy cat (Copy = a thing made to be similar or identical to another.) why use a knife when no other confirmed attacks used this method ? Surely a copy cat would attack couples in lovers lanes ?

Two- “Real” Zodiac stated “It just wouldn’t do to move in on somebody else’s territory. Whilst allowing somebody else to do this exact act to him.

Three- Was the actual Zodiac cross hair symbol ever shown in a paper prior to this attack, there were obviously a few references to it but an actual image to copy from ? The only image that is known is in the Vallejo Times herald paper of Aug 5th. I stand corrected on this due to Richard G, thanks for the info Richard

Four- The LB attacker must have been a time traveller as he knew how Zodiac would write the number 8 2 months before he actually wrote that number in a letter. ?

Perhaps Zodiac copied a copy cat who copied Zodiac ?

I totally agree it is best to approach the crimes independently, let’s take Lake Berryessa on its own.

Firstly why would a copycat commit this, when in fact if there were a copy cat (Copy = a thing made to be similar or identical to another.) why use a knife when no other confirmed attacks used this method ? Surely a copy cat would attack couples in lovers lanes ?

Why are you locked into a copycat concept? If the guy was a copycat he wouldn’t have worn a halloween outfit and used a knife. I am suggesting he was some nut who had his own, distinctly different, fantasy he wanted to play out.

Two- “Real” Zodiac stated “It just wouldn’t do to move in on somebody else’s territory. Whilst allowing somebody else to do this exact act to him.

How is he supposed to stop all the letter hoaxers and the LB hoaxer? What he did do, in the Bus Bomb letter, is tell us his "killing tools" were bought before the ban went into effect. I don’t believe there was a ban on knives, and he doesn’t mention knives in his list of his killing tools. Why not? If he was the LB Stabber, he would’ve mentioned that killing tool, wouldn’t he?

Three- Was the actual Zodiac cross hair symbol ever shown in a paper prior to this attack, there were obviously a few references to it but an actual image to copy from ?

I believe it was but can’t confirm. If somebody asked me to draw crosshairs, I’d draw it the way Z did.

Four- The LB attacker must have been a time traveller as he knew how Zodiac would write the number 8 2 months before he actually wrote that number in a letter. ?

We debate the authenticity of entire mailings, but consider the 18 letters on the car door as conclusive. Now you’re taking that and saying you can draw a conclusion from just one number? Wow. Well, does the LB car door "8" really look that similar to the Bus Bomb "8"? Big bottom loop, tiny bottom loop.