He held them at gunpoint. The ruse was to confuse and give them fake security while they were already in a state of absolute terror. JJD did the same thing.

But how much fake security will someone have with a guy in a black hood with serial killer logo? He approached them in that costume before he had them within easy range. And then his fantasy story obviously makes zero sense. A guy escapes from prison, is on the run, hurrying to Mexico, and pauses to create that mask and bib?

I think a more plausible explanation is that he was, as the witnesses from Bryan to the girls to the dispatcher estimated, in his late 20s. Meaning, he was a child when the 1952 Tim Holt Tahoe find comic book came out, and of appropriate age to have read it. It made an impression on him. Then as a young adult, he sees someone actually doing the super villian thing and decides he wants to play, too. He makes up a halloween costume of the scary Zodiac, he couples this play acting with also pretending to be an escaped prisoner, paying no attention to the fact these two fantasies have a logical contradiction. He then attacks by knife, and just like the comic book, he writes "By Knife" on the car door. He then sends a halloween card taunting LE about his personal halloween type adventure.

The guy at LB went to a great deal of trouble to simulate that Tim Holt Death Wheel scenario. It obviously meant a lot to him, writing "By Knife" on the car door, and then sending the halloween card with the "By Knife, By Rope, By Gun, By Fire" on it. He was bragging about having completed the "By Knife" method.

So if the LB killer is the same guy as Shooter Z, why didn’t he write "By Gun" on the car door at LHR, BRS, or PH? Look at all the time he spent at PH, propping the body up, wiping down the cab, walking casually away, all without a mask for disguise. He had plenty of time to write "By Gun" to notch another method.

But how much fake security will someone have with a guy in a black hood with serial killer logo? He approached them in that costume before he had them within easy range. And then his fantasy story obviously makes zero sense. A guy escapes from prison, is on the run, hurrying to Mexico, and pauses to create that mask and bib?

Who said the costume had to have anything to do with the confidence trick?

So if the LB killer is the same guy as Shooter Z, why didn’t he write "By Gun" on the car door at LHR, BRS, or PH? Look at all the time he spent at PH, propping the body up, wiping down the cab, walking casually away, all without a mask for disguise. He had plenty of time to write "By Gun" to notch another method.

He probably wanted to make a quicker getaway at Presidio Heights after retrieving pieces of Stine’s shirt. A painstaking and time-consuming act awfully similar to the "impostor" at Lake Berryessa.

The author of the October 13th 1969 Paul Stine letter opened with the words "This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the north bay area".

The Zodiac Killer on the car door of Bryan Hartnell’s white Karmann Ghia clearly attributes both of his first two attacks under the banner of Vallejo, despite the fact David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen were murdered in Benicia. In fact, the Zodiac Killer never referenced Benicia in any of his communications, while he mentioned Vallejo several times. If the Zodiac Killer played no part in the Lake Berryessa attack, then his above introduction could have read "This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the Vallejo area". However, he chose to use the "north bay area" for the first time, which incorporates the Napa and Sanoma wine regions. So, he at least took credit for the attack.

The author of the October 13th 1969 Paul Stine letter opened with the words "This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the north bay area".

The Zodiac Killer on the car door of Bryan Hartnell’s white Karmann Ghia clearly attributes both of his first two attacks under the banner of Vallejo, despite the fact David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen were murdered in Benicia. In fact, the Zodiac Killer never referenced Benicia in any of his communications, while he mentioned Vallejo several times. If the Zodiac Killer played no part in the Lake Berryessa attack, then his above introduction could have read "This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the Vallejo area". However, he chose to use the "north bay area" for the first time, which incorporates the Napa and Sanoma wine regions. So, he at least took credit for the attack.

Or, it could be that he used Vallejo, just like he used Christmas (LHR was actually Dec. 20) and after reading about himself in the papers, which he clearly did (he insisted papers write about him) he kept seeing BRS as having happened in Benicia. So, he decided to correct himself so as to be sure he was crediting BRS along with LHR.

But to my point – When you look at all the time and preparation that went into making the LB disguise, the planning, bringing a marker with to claim the "By Knife" trophy. The undeniable tie-in and adherence to the Tim Holt Death Wheel, not only in the preparation (making the costume, which Bryan said was of cloth and well stitched, bringing the knife, bindings and marker), the execution, and the aftermath (halloween card referencing the Death Wheel.) I would argue that killing "by knife" so as to be able to claim such attributions was one of his main objectives. In fact, it may have been his primary objective.

So, when it would’ve been so incredibly quick and simple – just scrawl 5 letters on the cab door, or at LHR, or at BRS – why didn’t he do it?

It’s like he was obsessed with the Death Wheel for the time before, during, and after the LB attacks, but then, when he’s got Paul’s cab right there, and he has plenty of time to rip Paul’s shirt, walk around the cab, prop Paul’s body up, then stroll casually away, he doesn’t write "By Gun".

That makes zero sense to me. I think using the notion that you think he should’ve described his killing area using certain words is not a strong rebuttal to the above.

What purpose would a hoaxer have to craft a carefully designed costume, when the car door and phone call were plenty enough to seed Zodiac in the minds of law enforcement. A hoaxer, knowing he intended to kill both victims, could have worn a stocking, simple mask or balaclava. Only one person needed to craft such a carefully designed costume. That somebody, being a person who cared about the fantasy he had created for himself. Somebody who was driven by the press coverage of his previous exploits. A hoaxer has no such investment in crafting this carefully stitched and symmetrical costume design.

What purpose would a hoaxer have to craft a carefully designed costume, when the car door and phone call were plenty enough to seed Zodiac in the minds of law enforcement. A hoaxer, knowing he intended to kill both victims, could have worn a stocking, simple mask or balaclava. Only one person needed to craft such a carefully designed costume. That somebody, being a person who cared about the fantasy he had created for himself. Somebody who was driven by the press coverage of his previous exploits. A hoaxer has no such investment in crafting this carefully stitched and symmetrical costume design.

My previous posts make it clear I’m not suggesting the killer at LB was a "copycat" or a "hoaxer." He fits a pattern of an immature younger adult heavily influenced by that comic book, who decided to insert himself into the Zodiac media attention, by creating his own super villain persona. He’s creating his own variation of Zodiac – not copycatting or hoaxing it. It’s obvious he’s taking his fantasies very seriously.

Again I’ll ask: Why does a guy who obviously cares so much about attributing his LB kill to the Death Wheel concept, not claim "By Gun" when he has 3 chances to do so?

I think both killers were there (maybe 3) one committed the attack and the other wrote on the car door, whilst waiting for the other killer to get back to the getaway vehicle

Again I’ll ask: Why does a guy who obviously cares so much about attributing his LB kill to the Death Wheel concept, not claim "By Gun" when he has 3 chances to do so?

I have a perfectly rational reason why he emphasized "by knife" at Berryessa, but it involves Snoozy & Furlong. The Zodiac Killer had murdered 3, injured 1 and mailed 3 communications, including cryptograms by August 69. The Chronicle and Examiner relegated him to page 4 and page 9 despite all this. He was utterly dismayed he didn’t get front page coverage on August 4th. Then, this on August 6th 1969, splashed front and center of page 1 in the Chronicle.
http://www.maebrussell.com/1960s%20Terr … layer.html

Ask yourself why he switched from gun to knife, and highlighted "by knife" on the car door. Then followed up with "Aug" on the Dripping Pen card. The "by knife" attribution was the killer effectively stating "do I get front page coverage now".

Again I’ll ask: Why does a guy who obviously cares so much about attributing his LB kill to the Death Wheel concept, not claim "By Gun" when he has 3 chances to do so?

I have a perfectly rational reason why he emphasized "by knife" at Berryessa, but it involves Snoozy & Furlong. The Zodiac Killer had murdered 3, injured 1 and mailed 3 communications, including cryptograms by August 69. The Chronicle and Examiner relegated him to page 4 and page 9 despite all this. He was utterly dismayed he didn’t get front page coverage on August 4th. Then, this on August 6th 1969, splashed front and center of page 1 in the Chronicle.
http://www.maebrussell.com/1960s%20Terr … layer.html

Ask yourself why he switched from gun to knife, and highlighted "by knife" on the car door. Then followed up with "Aug" on the Dripping Pen card. The "by knife" attribution was the killer effectively stating "do I get front page coverage now".

My question was, with all the planning and focus and obvious importance of the Tim Holt Death Wheel, not just at the crime scene, but followed up later with the halloween card, why didn’t he ever claim "By Gun"?

Have you ever considered he didn’t know about the Death Wheel until after his first two crimes. Because he wrote "by knife" on the car doesn’t mean he is compelled to emphasize "by gun" at his other crimes.

Have you ever considered he didn’t know about the Death Wheel until after his first two crimes. Because he wrote "by knife" on the car doesn’t mean he is compelled to emphasize "by gun" at his other crimes.

Since you believe Zodiac was 40 years old, that would mean a 40 year old man is locating a 17 year old juvenile comic book and being so inspired by it as to make it the focus of the LB attack. He sews the costume, stalks his victims with knife and marker, attacks, and ties it directly to the Death Wheel in that comic book by writing "By Knife" on the car door.

Yes, I know we have the umbrella of "Serial killers are insane and unpredictable", but is that scenario likely?

A couple weeks later he kills his next victim, by gun, but for some reason doesn’t associate that to the Death Wheel. He is in no hurry leaving that crime scene, would only need about 5 seconds to write "By Gun" on the cab, but doesn’t. Has he abandoned his obsession with Tim Holt and the Death Wheel concept?

Apparently not, because 2 weeks after Paul Stine is shot, he sends the halloween card, which is a very obvious reference to the Tim Holt comic, specifically the Death Wheel, which ties back to the LB By Knife attack.

Why didn’t he claim By Gun on the cab? Richard, you’re one of my favorite posters here for your insights and courtesy, but you keep sidestepping that question. The Death Wheel is the focus at LB, is non-existent at PH, and is the focus again 2 weeks later with the halloween card.

Why is it inconceivable that 2 different people can kill, with one appropriating the identity of the other? It happened hundreds of times with communications.

That is what I’m saying Marshall, we don’t actually know when he unearthed the death wheel comic. He may not have seen it prior to October 11th 1969. I gave my explanation for "by knife" at Berryessa, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be comic related, moreover, related to the August 3rd murders. I don’t subscribe to the idea that Berryessa had to be inspired by the Tim Holt comic. He may have stumbled across it subsequent to Berryessa. Maybe he had kids, who had possession of the comic and not necessarily something he purchased. There are a multitude of scenarios. Even if he knew about the comic prior to Berryessa and the "by knife" attribution on the car door was comic inspired, this doesn’t require him as a prerequisite to write "by gun" at Presidio Heights, or at any other crime scene. I believe the "by knife" attribution may have been unrelated to the comic, and primarily a statement of "do I get front page coverage now", just like August 6th 1969. Two words matching between comic and door, doesn’t implicitly mean they are connected.

That is what I’m saying Marshall, we don’t actually know when he unearthed the death wheel comic. He may not have seen it prior to October 11th 1969. I gave my explanation for "by knife" at Berryessa, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be comic related, moreover, related to the August 3rd murders. I don’t subscribe to the idea that Berryessa had to be inspired by the Tim Holt comic. He may have stumbled across it subsequent to Berryessa. Maybe he had kids, who had possession of the comic and not necessarily something he purchased. There are a multitude of scenarios. Even if he knew about the comic prior to Berryessa and the "by knife" attribution on the car door was comic inspired, this doesn’t require him as a prerequisite to write "by gun" at Presidio Heights, or at any other crime scene. I believe the "by knife" attribution may have been unrelated to the comic, and primarily a statement of "do I get front page coverage now", just like August 6th 1969. Two words matching between comic and door, doesn’t implicitly mean they are connected.

Do you think "By Knife" on the car door is directly related to "By Knife" in the halloween card?
Do you think the whole series "By Knife, By Fire, By Rope, By Gun" is directly tied to the comic book?

If A = B and B = C, then A = C.

Or, are you suggesting he stabbed Bryan and Cecelia, then wrote "By Knife" randomly, not having seen the comic, and sometime in the 2 weeks between PH and mailing the halloween card just happened to stumble upon a 17 year old comic book for the first time? And it happened to have the Death Wheel with exactly the phrase he had used at his murder scene? And that inspired him so much that he put together the elaborate halloween card, featuring the Death Wheel stuff? That would be some set of coincidences. And if writing By Knife on the car door was not a reference to the comic, why write it at all? Obviously his victims had been stabbed. As stated, he never wrote "By Gun" at his other killings.

I already explained Marshall why I believe he wrote "by knife" on the car door – and the fact that two words together in two separate places in the entirety of American history, is not proof of a connection. I’m sure David Oranchak would agree. This is an explanation I have covered elsewhere.

The Zodiac Killer must have been incensed that despite his brutal murder of three people during the holiday season, followed by his cryptic correspondences, he failed to achieve front page coverage from the Chronicle or the Examiner, despite threatening another dozen victims over the weekend. The only difference, he must have surmised, was the method of attack and the horror that such an intimate attack with a bladed instrument on two young girls had engendered in the psyche of the newspapers and public at large. The Zodiac Killer knew at this moment he had to ratchet up his attacks and get up close and personal with the use of a knife. But this wouldn’t be any ordinary attack – he would dress up in an executioner’s costume and hunt for young girls armed with a 12-inch knife – not "a pocket knife with a half-inch blade". Although Karl Francis Werner’s capture was two years in the making, he was the absent agent behind the attack on Bryan Hartnell and murder of Cecelia Shepard just seven weeks later. Without the murders of Debra Gaye Furlong and Kathy Ann Snoozy on August 3rd 1969, it can be argued the attack at Lake Berryessa would never have taken place.

No surprise then, that the Zodiac Killer wanted to outdo the August 3rd 1969 murders, by setting his sights on three young girls from Pacific Union College as they sunbathed on the shores of Lake Berryessa on September 27th 1969. Three murders with a 12-inch bladed knife would definitely have done the trick. But something clearly thwarted this attack and two hours later he focused in on Bryan Hartnell and Cecelia Shepard, determined not to be denied and secure his front page coverage. After the sixteen strikes into the young couple, he retreated and traveled back up the hill to lay claim to this attack as the Zodiac Killer. After writing the dates of his previous two attacks and this one on the car door of Bryan Hartnell, he emphasized the words "by knife" at the foot of the message. The Zodiac Killer was effectively saying "do I get front page coverage now". The brutal knife attack, he hoped, would get the recognition akin to the murders of Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Furlong. Not only did he get the recognition, but it had an added benefit of the newspapers considering the possibility of his involvement in the Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Furlong murders. This certainly didn’t escape his attention.

Why do you think he wrote "Aug" on the Dripping Pen card, chose a blooded dripping pen and composed the Monticello card and 148 character cipher.

I already explained Marshall why I believe he wrote "by knife" on the car door – and the fact that two words together in two separate places in the entirety of American history, is not proof of a connection. I’m sure David Oranchak would agree. This is an explanation I have covered elsewhere.

The Zodiac Killer must have been incensed that despite his brutal murder of three people during the holiday season, followed by his cryptic correspondences, he failed to achieve front page coverage from the Chronicle or the Examiner, despite threatening another dozen victims over the weekend. The only difference, he must have surmised, was the method of attack and the horror that such an intimate attack with a bladed instrument on two young girls had engendered in the psyche of the newspapers and public at large. The Zodiac Killer knew at this moment he had to ratchet up his attacks and get up close and personal with the use of a knife. But this wouldn’t be any ordinary attack – he would dress up in an executioner’s costume and hunt for young girls armed with a 12-inch knife – not "a pocket knife with a half-inch blade". Although Karl Francis Werner’s capture was two years in the making, he was the absent agent behind the attack on Bryan Hartnell and murder of Cecelia Shepard just seven weeks later. Without the murders of Debra Gaye Furlong and Kathy Ann Snoozy on August 3rd 1969, it can be argued the attack at Lake Berryessa would never have taken place.

No surprise then, that the Zodiac Killer wanted to outdo the August 3rd 1969 murders, by setting his sights on three young girls from Pacific Union College as they sunbathed on the shores of Lake Berryessa on September 27th 1969. Three murders with a 12-inch bladed knife would definitely have done the trick. But something clearly thwarted this attack and two hours later he focused in on Bryan Hartnell and Cecelia Shepard, determined not to be denied and secure his front page coverage. After the sixteen strikes into the young couple, he retreated and traveled back up the hill to lay claim to this attack as the Zodiac Killer. After writing the dates of his previous two attacks and this one on the car door of Bryan Hartnell, he emphasized the words "by knife" at the foot of the message. The Zodiac Killer was effectively saying "do I get front page coverage now". The brutal knife attack, he hoped, would get the recognition akin to the murders of Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Furlong. Not only did he get the recognition, but it had an added benefit of the newspapers considering the possibility of his involvement in the Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Furlong murders. This certainly didn’t escape his attention.

Thank you for your time in discussing this with me. I can see your scenario of the guy wanting to commit a noteworthy crime.

I realize you’re pretty locked into the notion it was the same killer, but if you consider the possibility, just for a minute, you’ll see that what you wrote does not require Shooter Z and LB Z to be one and the same. Also, if LB got him the attention he wanted, with all that effort involving the costume, etc., then why PH so soon after?

When you say: I already explained Marshall why I believe he wrote "by knife" on the car door – and the fact that two words together in two separate places in the entirety of American history, is not proof of a connection. I’m sure David Oranchak would agree.…

we aren’t talking about the entirety of American history. We are talking about just 2 specific words written at a crime scene, along with dates and location of previous crimes, and the same 2 words, in the same context, written in a card sent about one month later, both written by the same guy (on that we agree.) Yes, we can ask David Oranchak if the guy at LB writing "By Knife" twice within about a month of each other is a connection.

A 40 year old man being so strongly influenced by a 17 year old juvenile comic that he recently came across… whether it inspired LB or not, it sure inspired the halloween card, with its cutout skeleton and other artsy attributes.

Shooter Z described in great detail his victims, including ammo used, position of bodies, methods used (flashlights, etc.) He never does this regarding LB.