I think we Are actually on the same page regarding a good deal of these observations.
Unfortunately, due to the amount of quotes the conversation was becoming hard navigate in an online setting.
I’ll try to stick to important points of conversation from here on out.
i think he decided he needed to hide his face, since he had one victim survive, but just a ski mask wasn’t good enough. He became the comic book villain he always wanted to be that day. It was probably unwieldy and made it harder to do his thing, so it was the only time he used it.
Then again, it might not have been the only time, it was just the only time we know he used it and someone lived to tell about it.
I believe Mike Mageau described him as having a "large, round face and curly hair". I always thought that a bit odd. It’s possible Zodiac wore and earlier version of his hood. Mageau only caught a fleeting glimpse of him, and that was after being shot several times.
In all honesty, a ski-mask would have been the better choice. They are quite common, so owning one doesn’t peg you as a serial killer, and one could easily transport the mask without raising much suspicion.
bryan hartnell said that this costume was not just "thrown together", he mentions how the "zodiac symbol" looked like it had been put on the hood very carefully, it was not just quickly painted on, it was a professional looking job.
Apparently zodiac put a good deal of time and effort into his hood.
But why?
…one of my friends (who believes zodiac was likely Rick Marshall) has a theory that zodiac actually filmed the lake berryessa attack, hence the need for the elaborate costume. She also feels it explains the need for a daylight attack in an open area. She feels zodiac was obsessed with films (and even with obscure classic comic books) and that he actually was playing a villain role. This would be interesting if it could be proven, but since it can not be I don’t put much stock into the notion.
I do not believe that it [the hood] was used in any other attacks. Lake berryessa was a daylight attack, and out in the open, so just in case anybody else was watching a mask would make sense.
Mike can be a difficult witness, however, I also think he knows more than he has publicly said, I think he does hold important information, but… well, have you seen any interviews with Mike?
Here is an example:
"She told me, uhm, a friend of hers and not to worry about it, he is just jealous, that’s all she said about him, he is just jealous, she never mentions his name…she said something about RICHARD, something about his name was RICHARD, [mumbling]…named RICHARD, and I think that was his name, she referred to him as RICHARD, [places arms behind his head] the zodiac killer, the guy… she said he had a very mean temper and that if he ever found out he would kill her, he would kill her, this she mentioned those were her words, he would kill me if he ever I knew I was talking to you about that…she told me that. [Arms still behind head]
Here is Mike’s description:
Miraculously Michael Mageau, who took the initial brunt of the cold blooded attack, survived and was later at his bedside able to give a description of the killer to investigating detective Ed Rust, stating he was a heavyset man standing at about 5’8” tall, beefy build, but not blubbery fat, possibly 195-200 pounds, short curly hair, light brown almost blond. He added that the man was not wearing glasses, but stressed that his assailant did possess a particularly large face. A description that would appear to contradict the first composite sketch of the Zodiac Killer recalled from initial eyewitness testimony after the murder of Paul Stine at Presidio Heights some three months later. However an amended composite of the Presidio Heights murderer, being closer to the description given by Officer Donald Fouke, appears to align more closely to the observations of Michael Mageau at Blue Rock Springs.
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/blue-rock- … ttack.html
Mike describes officer Hoffman …
His description sounds more like the lesser known lake berryessa sketch:
Though I promise you, if you can find a Picture of officer richard Hoffman from between the years of 1968 and 1973, he fits nearly all the descriptions…
Apparently zodiac put a good deal of time and effort into his hood.
But why?
Because it was important to him. I think it has value as a clue for several reasons, one being his need/desire to have such a costume rather than an easily acquired ski mask, also that he had needlework skills and what was his inspiration for it. It looks like his version of an "executioner’s hood" to me.
a theory that zodiac actually filmed the lake berryessa attack, hence the need for the elaborate costume.
Yes, I’ve heard that before and don’t discount it, it seems something he would like to do. My only problem with it is that Cecelia Shepard saw him coming from a long ways off and I believe she would have noticed if he was carrying a camera. Of course, she wasn’t in the best shape when relating her story to the officer and it’s possible Zodiac could have set it up without them seeing him do it. Starring in his own super villain film would certainly be something I can see him wanting to do.
I do not believe that it [the hood] was used in any other attacks. Lake berryessa was a daylight attack, and out in the open, so just in case anybody else was watching a mask would make sense.
Yes, that it was in the open during the day was certainly a reason, along with his knowledge that one of his victims had lived and he was lucky he couldn’t provide a better description of him and of his vehicle.
I neither believe nor discount that Zodiac used a hood in other attacks. I’m one who believes Zodiac is responsible for the Domingos/Edwards slayings, that was another one during the day. Possible he wore one that day.
Mike can be a difficult witness, however, I also think he knows more than he has publicly said, I think he does hold important information, but… well, have you seen any interviews with Mike?
Though I promise you, if you can find a Picture of officer richard Hoffman from between the years of 1968 and 1973, he fits nearly all the descriptions…
I don’t want to say too much about Mike, I think it is obvious that he has suffered greatly. I don’t put much stock in anything he says, not that I think he is lying, it’s because I think he is trying too hard to remember things, things that he can’t.
The first shot, in my opinion, was fired so close to his head I believe it gave him a concussion and ruined his hearing. I believe that’s why he thought the shots were muffled, they were muffled because his eardrums were concussed along with his brain. He said at first he thought the guy hit him, then realized he had been shot. I suppose it’s possible he was struck before he was shot, but I don’t think any of his injuries bears that out.
It seems Mike was badly stunned from the start and half/conscious through the entire attack.
According to Mageau, Darlene Ferrin identified her killer as "Richard." Interestingly, my "POI"’s first name is also Richard.
Because it was important to him. I think it has value as a clue for several reasons, one being his need/desire to have such a costume rather than an easily acquired ski mask, also that he had needlework skills and what was his inspiration for it. It looks like his version of an "executioner’s hood" to me.
Makes sense.
Zodiac was clearly a creative and artistic individual. From the hood to the additions to the Paul averly card, to the connections to old films, comics, and operas, it is clear that this is an artistic, creative and cultured individual. It is also clear that he was fairly intelligent.
…but what meaningful things we can draw from this information? I’m not sure.
Yes, I’ve heard that before and don’t discount it, it seems something he would like to do. My only problem with it is that Cecelia Shepard saw him coming from a long ways off and I believe she would have noticed if he was carrying a camera. Of course, she wasn’t in the best shape when relating her story to the officer and it’s possible Zodiac could have set it up without them seeing him do it. Starring in his own super villain film would certainly be something I can see him wanting to do.
My friend thinks he placed the camera in the tree while he was putting his mask on, when he "went behind the tree" She thinks that he positioned it and stabilized the camera on a branch or branches so that it would be filming the exact area where Bryan and Cecilia were. Again, this is all just speculations, which is why I never put very much stock into the notion….
(A funny note, Ross Sullivan made a film where he played a killer, the murder scene was so convincing that the police showed up. We also know that Rick Marshall was a silent movie enthusiast, so a "film" element actually may be a possibility for several of the suspects. …again, it’s not a notion subscribe to, but it is quite interesting.
About having a camera, witness saw the man with something "bunched up" in his sweater, he could have been carrying a small camera to stash in the tree.
Earlier on in the day, three young women, students of Pacific Union College parked their vehicle at the A & W in St Helena, and within seconds of leaving their vehicle, a white male, driving a silver or light blue Chevrolet 2-door sedan with California plates pulled up to the rear of their car, bumper to bumper, yet remained inside his vehicle. This man would again come into play once the girls had headed off to Lake Berryessa, where it is believed they noticed the same man approximately 50 feet away, observing them sunbathing. Each time they looked at him he seemingly evaded eye contact, thus drawing suspicion from the three women. He was described as being between 28 and 40 years, 200 – 225 pounds, 6 feet tall, styled black hair, with rounded eyes and thin lips, he was good looking, with a muscular or stocky build, wearing dark pants and a dark pullover shirt. He remained observing them, by their accounts, for between 30 – 45 minutes.
But in a curious observation, one of the girls thought he was wearing a white belt around his back, or possibly what could have been a tee shirt hanging out. Another girl stated he was wearing a black short sleeved sweater shirt, bunched up at the front, again describing a white tee shirt hanging out the back.
Did the bunched up sweater shirt hide anything sinister?
http://www.zodiacciphers.com/lake-berryessa-attack.html
I don’t want to say too much about Mike, I think it is obvious that he has suffered greatly. I don’t put much stock in anything he says, not that I think he is lying, it’s because I think he is trying too hard to remember things, things that he can’t.
I was not trying to say anything negative about Mike, just that he can be a difficult witness.
After the attack, Mike fled town and made almost no effort to catch the person who shot him, he was behaving like a person who was scared. Maybe he had a good idea of who shot him, and could not or did not want to tell the police or ask them for help, so he got as far from the situation as he could.
Mike has been through a good deal, and it’s understandable that it would have affected him. Though I still feel he knows more than he has said.
If a police officer shot you, who could you call for help? Specially if you were afraid that he might come after you again. I’m not trying to get into my "richard Hoffman was the blue rock springs shooter" theory, though it would explain some of Mike’s behavior and could explain why Mike seemed so afraid.
Though I agree, part of it could be related to Mike trying to conjure up memories which may not be there.
Who is Warren Bailey? In that same interview Mike said he had a twin brother who was dating Darlene, and that he would tell Darlene that "he was the actor Warren Bailey and that this was his brother who had just shot someone" it was a remark which I had never really understood, I will transcribe that section out and post it soon.
I think that zodiac actually fit in very well with the society around him, I feel that he likey appeared to be a very normal individual, and likely had a fairly normal social life. …though there is also some evidence to contradict this as well.
Perhaps zodiac was two people working together, maybe even three people working together.
Do you ever wonder what happened to that hood? I always think that someday some person is going to pass away and their family is going to discover the hood or other evidence like Paul stien’s shirt in their property or in storage. I mean, if this hood was important enough to zodiac for him to put all that effort into making it, there is a chance that he never threw it away, and that someday it might turn up.
It seems strange that this person could have spent all this time creating ciphers, and costumes, and writing letters, and who stated some of his interests in his letters could do all this without family or friends noticing. I mean, you figure at some point the man would have discussed ciphers or been seen making them at some point. This guy had to know other people, and unless they were working with him it seems hard for me to understand how they failed to notice these things…
It actually seems like either the information we have is inaccurate or incomplete, thus preventing the case from being solved, or that people with the power to do so have been preventing the case from being solved and ultimately protecting the killer.
Who is Warren Bailey? In that same interview Mike said he had a twin brother who was dating Darlene, and that he would tell Darlene that "he was the actor Warren Bailey and that this was his brother who had just shot someone" it was a remark which I had never really understood, I will transcribe that section out and post it soon.
Could he have meant to say "Warren Beatty"?
Who is Warren Bailey? In that same interview Mike said he had a twin brother who was dating Darlene, and that he would tell Darlene that "he was the actor Warren Bailey and that this was his brother who had just shot someone" it was a remark which I had never really understood, I will transcribe that section out and post it soon.
Could he have meant to say "Warren Beatty"?
I thought he did say Warren Beatty. Even if he did say Bailey, I’m certain he meant Warren Beatty. Pretty sure it was a reference to the very popular movie "Bonnie and Clyde" that came out in 1967. Beatty starred in it and all the girls were in love with him. The movie centered on not only Bonnie but also Clyde and his brother. I think it was just Mike’s way of trying to say he was handsome, I believe he said it the first time he met Darlene.
Zodiac was clearly a creative and artistic individual. From the hood to the additions to the Paul averly card, to the connections to old films, comics, and operas, it is clear that this is an artistic, creative and cultured individual. It is also clear that he was fairly intelligent.
…but what meaningful things we can draw from this information? I’m not sure.
Best we can do is speculate. Zodiac does seem to be someone with some higher degree of thought, but in my opinion he was self-taught on much of it. You can learn a lot just from reading.
Matt Damon , Good will hunting – “You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.”
I’d say Zodiac was a guy who didn’t like the real world and stayed inside his own world he created in his mind. He as good at keeping it hid from others and could function rather normally, but he preferred his version of the world over reality.
I was not trying to say anything negative about Mike, just that he can be a difficult witness.
Yes, and didn’t mean to imply you were speaking negatively about him. It appears you and I are on the same wavelength concerning Mike.
If a police officer shot you, who could you call for help? Specially if you were afraid that he might come after you again. I’m not trying to get into my "richard Hoffman was the blue rock springs shooter" theory, though it would explain some of Mike’s behavior and could explain why Mike seemed so afraid.
Agreed, could be why Mike stayed tight lipped, I don’t blame him, he didn’t know about Zodiac at the time so no telling what he thought was going on.
I think that zodiac actually fit in very well with the society around him, I feel that he likey appeared to be a very normal individual, and likely had a fairly normal social life. …though there is also some evidence to contradict this as well.
Yes, we seem to be of like mind on that as well.
Perhaps zodiac was two people working together, maybe even three people working together.
That’s a possibility we all have to keep in mind, also outright copycats that had no association with the real Zodiac.
Do you ever wonder what happened to that hood? I always think that someday some person is going to pass away and their family is going to discover the hood or other evidence like Paul stien’s shirt in their property or in storage. I mean, if this hood was important enough to zodiac for him to put all that effort into making it, there is a chance that he never threw it away, and that someday it might turn up.
It’s possible he destroyed it, or a family member found it and destroyed it. It could have been packed away in belongings that were not gone through but thrown out after Zodiac’s death. No way of knowing but I think we all hope it turns up someday.
It seems strange that this person could have spent all this time creating ciphers, and costumes, and writing letters, and who stated some of his interests in his letters could do all this without family or friends noticing. I mean, you figure at some point the man would have discussed ciphers or been seen making them at some point. This guy had to know other people, and unless they were working with him it seems hard for me to understand how they failed to notice these things…
That’s why I said it doesn’t matter if he was a family man or lived alone, he had a lot of alone time to do his thing either way. I have to mention that old adage "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead". I think that he has remained unknown for this long indicates Zodiac acted alone and no one close to him had knowledge of what he was doing. It is possible a family member found out, and somehow put a stop to it, but has never told what they know. Family does strange things to protect their own many times.
It actually seems like either the information we have is inaccurate or incomplete, thus preventing the case from being solved, or that people with the power to do so have been preventing the case from being solved and ultimately protecting the killer.
I have no doubt authorities have held back evidence all this time, they always do. I believe we too often concentrate on the codes and letters when there, somewhere, is hard evidence we haven’t seen.
I found a few things in the LB attack police reports that I don’t see discussed, I’m going to start a thread on it today when I get time. There’s quite a bit there and it’s going to be a long post. Not that I think it’s anything that hasn’t been noticed already, just stuff I wasn’t aware of.
Not a bad read..personally my thought is if you saw z he would be like any other individual in your life..i think he hid the inner turmoil and evilness very very well…..i also like z being a berkely kid in the arts or music field…no doubt the bastard was smart..he has yet to be found…..
·Zodiac appears to be very intelligent.
That’s one of the puzzling things about Zodiac to me, the guy had to be rather intelligent IMO simply due to his codes, also his ability to elude capture. But then there are the mis-spellings. I wonder sometimes if those are intentional for some reason. Has anyone ever checked to see if maybe he was placing a code in the non-coded letters? Might be the reasons for the mis-spellings, just a wild thought.
Also, the profiler of the Uni-Bomber apparently found what appeared to be mis-spellings/mis-use of sayings in his letters (and no, I don’t think TK is the Zodiac) but they turned out to just be an older type of speaking due to TK’s educational methods. I wonder if something like that would be of use in Zodiac’s letters.
Also something I noticed in the Cherie Jo Bates letter, he mentions the coil wire he removed from the car and said something like "the battery must have been about dead by then". If he thought removing the coil wire would run down the battery, he didn’t know much about cars.
Not so puzzeling…you ever hang with crazy nuts who gave iq’s 150 and above??? ..most cant spell a word yet can explain string theory….no i am not surprised z could not spell….many smarty types struggle in areas us average crazy types take for granted….
·Zodiac appears to be very intelligent.
I’m not sure spelling and being intelligent are that connected.
That’s one of the puzzling things about Zodiac to me, the guy had to be rather intelligent IMO simply due to his codes, also his ability to elude capture. But then there are the mis-spellings. I wonder sometimes if those are intentional for some reason. Has anyone ever checked to see if maybe he was placing a code in the non-coded letters? Might be the reasons for the mis-spellings, just a wild thought.
Also, the profiler of the Uni-Bomber apparently found what appeared to be mis-spellings/mis-use of sayings in his letters (and no, I don’t think TK is the Zodiac) but they turned out to just be an older type of speaking due to TK’s educational methods. I wonder if something like that would be of use in Zodiac’s letters.
Also something I noticed in the Cherie Jo Bates letter, he mentions the coil wire he removed from the car and said something like "the battery must have been about dead by then". If he thought removing the coil wire would run down the battery, he didn’t know much about cars.
It’s not necessarily what zodiac did overtly that makes me Think he was intelligent, it was the intentions behind some of his actions, for example, the letters to police and the press allowed him to control a good deal of the narrative of the investigation, he was spoon-feeding them clues to guide them into investigating the things Which he wanted them to be looking into, rather than looking into the things which could actually get him caught, that’s pretty clever, even more so since it worked.
Then we have zodiac’s knowledge of chemistry/explosives, the engineering behind the device in the diagram was again, very clever.
As for the misspellings, I feel these were intentional, and this could have been for various reasons, one could have been to disguise his true writing style and writing habits, by using intentional misspellings and by using phrases which would not be used in his normal writing, if one were to make comparisons with his actual writing with the zodiac writings, determining a conclusive match would be very difficult. This is pretty clever.
Another reason could be that he was leaving "klews", or at least what looked like clues. Or, he could have been simply messing with people.
Another reason could be that zodiac was creating portmanteau words, similar to how James Joyce would. Zodiac actually shows signs of being rather well read and being incredibly well learned in literature and culture, he makes detailed references in incredibly subtle ways, he is also good with double entendre, portmanteau words, and makes subtle references to highly regarded cultural works.
As for the codes, this does not necessarily catch my eye as being the work of a highly intelligent individual, but it could imply the possibility. The 408 cipher was not very sophisticated, if the other ciphers are in fact true ciphers, then I would have to give him credit there. …it’s actually pretty amazing that he created something which so many people have been able to derive so many meanings from.
I am not saying he is intelligent as a compliment, I only mention it as I think it is a crucial piece of a potential psychological profile.
…There is also the possibility that zodiac was more than one person, which would make creation of an accurate psychological profile nearly impossible.
As for the car of Cheri jo bates, The wire from the distributor cap to the ignition coil had been removed.
Zodiac said: Then I waited for her in the library and followed her out after about two minutes. The battery must have been about dead by then.
(Though the facts surrounding this homicide show that zodiac May not be telling the truth here, there are discrepancies from what is known.)
I think it shows enough knowledge to disable the ignition, but yeah, not sure why he mentions the battery. However, this could be because in reality he knew a good deal about cars, and wanted us to think that he did not… the car from lake berryessa that zodiac was said to be driving had two different tires on it, two different sizes with different tread, this is odd, and may imply that zodiac had intentionally altered the tires of his vehicle, which would require a small amount of auto knowledge… any way, it’s hard to say.
I believe the reason the Bates letter writer mentions the battery is because he knew that it would be run down from her trying to start the car. With the coil wire removed the starter will still work but the plugs would never fire to start the engine. She probably would have tried to start her vehicle until her battery was dead, IMHO.
I believe the reason the Bates letter writer mentions the battery is because he knew that it would be run down from her trying to start the car. With the coil wire removed the starter will still work but the plugs would never fire to start the engine. She probably would have tried to start her vehicle until her battery was dead, IMHO.
Yes, VW Beetles of that era had 6 volt batteries and were known to be very weak, it would not have taken much cranking to kill
that battery.
Interesting post, I have similar thoughts as this, 66
·Zodiac appears to be very intelligent.
That’s one of the puzzling things about Zodiac to me, the guy had to be rather intelligent IMO simply due to his codes, also his ability to elude capture. But then there are the mis-spellings. I wonder sometimes if those are intentional for some reason. Has anyone ever checked to see if maybe he was placing a code in the non-coded letters? Might be the reasons for the mis-spellings, just a wild thought.
Also, the profiler of the Uni-Bomber apparently found what appeared to be mis-spellings/mis-use of sayings in his letters (and no, I don’t think TK is the Zodiac) but they turned out to just be an older type of speaking due to TK’s educational methods. I wonder if something like that would be of use in Zodiac’s letters.
Also something I noticed in the Cherie Jo Bates letter, he mentions the coil wire he removed from the car and said something like "the battery must have been about dead by then". If he thought removing the coil wire would run down the battery, he didn’t know much about cars.
Not so puzzeling…you ever hang with crazy nuts who gave iq’s 150 and above??? ..most cant spell a word yet can explain string theory….no i am not surprised z could not spell….many smarty types struggle in areas us average crazy types take for granted….
It’s puzzling because some of the supposed misspellings are clearly just using an archaic version of the spelling. Some seem to be actual misspellings as well, but I have only checked on a few, all of them might be archaic spellings.
