Other than the Wing Walker boots, what evidence exists that Zodiac was in the military?

PX watches.

https://wornandwound.com/the-px-watches … etnam-war/

Cheri Jo Bates the Timex Watch is also a PX watch. Zodiac watch is probably a PX watch.

When it comes to not calling a spade a space, I learned a lesson from JJD and EARONS.

Loads of things JJD did can be associated with LE. Yet the excuse was the same. Civilians can do all that too.

Anyone can do them but why make it more complex than it is?

That is why i think not only was the Zodiac military but likely connected with LE also because there is a lot of evidence like the above that he is LE.

PX watches were never included in any Zodiac crimes.

What evidence exists that Zodiac was LE?

Unfortunately, what the FBI think or can prove are two different things. The Zodiac did his utmost to prove his involvement in the four canonical attacks, but provided nothing thereafter for any crime, Riverside included.
Writing "I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my riverside activity, but they are only finding the easy ones, there are a hell of a lot more down there" doesn’t cut it.

Right but I am going to contrast this with the EARONS case because I think there is much there to learn. Especially given the Zodiac case was used as an example of why the LE/Military stuff pointing at EARONS should be dismissed because civilians can do it also.

End result. EARONS is JJD who was Navy and LE.

Yes we have the power of hindsight. However we also have the power of that find to think about when the Military or LE angle to the Zodiac is dismissed because ‘civilians’ can do it too.

If we go back to the original point of what is official then it is official that Zodiac investigators checked out the Military as a connection to the Zodiac. This means they had reason to do so. We can speculate we know why they did and why it might be wrong but it seems to me this is an official part of the Zodiac case history. The military was checked out. This was also the case with CJB. The military was checked out.

Also are the Zodiac crimes tied together with hard evidence? Maybe but we suspect not. Do they have prints or DNA cross-referencing a connection between the Zodiac crime scenes or ballistics for that matter? Maybe but we suspect not.

The case for the Zodiac is tied together with soft evidence and M.O.(which even changes). I think when we look at CJB it emerges through the same soft evidence that she is likely a Zodiac victim.

As to why he didn’t want to claim responsibility. I think the answer there is the same with most serial killers. Their first attacks are the ones where they make the most mistakes and have possible connections to the victim.

So when CJB was pointed out as a Zodiac crime, the Zodiac didn’t wait for anything official, he just acknowledged it was his crime. They had linked him up so he might as well claim it. Why didn’t he want to claim it? Well the evidence seems to be a good reason. He lost a watch. He lost a lot of blood. He had scratches. His car was possibly seen. He was possibly seen smoking. Then there are the communications. For Oceanside we have a book dumped in a taxi. Likely a Zodiac clue and was likely "the haven’t got a clue who did it" in his phone call. At some stage someone was bound to read the book and wonder at some point if the prison location of San Quentin in the book would have anything to do with the conversation he had with Hartnell about prisons who survived.

Who knows, maybe I am wrong, and the Zodiac has no connection to the Military or LE, but I think there is a more compelling case for it than not, especially after the capture of JJD. Those arguments as to why we don’t need to consider Military or LE look really bad in hindsight and very misguided when we look closely at the reasons given as to why. Those arguments ended up failing and getting it wrong.

PX watches were never included in any Zodiac crimes.

What evidence exists that Zodiac was LE?

I think there is probably a connection between the loss of a PX Timex watch and military footwear prints for Bates crime and the Zodiac name with Zodiac symbol that appears in the list of PX watches along with military footwear prints at Lake Berryessa for the Zodiac crimes.

Apparently civilians wearing military gear who were never in the military make a better explanation for the above?

It reminds me so much of the EARONS case.

As for evidence that Zodiac was LE.

Some things to consider here. It has often been postulated that the Zodiac was failed LE or had some experience there. Here are some points.
– Blue Rock Springs attack used a patrol cut off technique to box their car in.
– Even Mageau tells us he thought the Zodiac was a cop because of a large flashlight shining in on them.
– Mageau rolled down the window to be at the ready with ID or whatever.
– The Zodiac obviously has some awareness of police procedure. He even exploited the firecrackers on the 4th of July because there is a slower response to gunfire reports. He knows it because he is aware of this happening to LE on celebratory days.
– He knows about cross-jurisdiction problems which is why he hits in different ones.
– First few Zodiac letters are like ballistics reports.
– He was aware of secretion status forensic testing which is why no saliva was found on the envelopes anywhere.

There is also a very interesting slang term that appears in some letters. He calls LE ‘pigs’. What is interesting is that the serial rapist/killer EARONS left messages with some of his targets to tell the ‘pigs’ this and that. EARONS was a cop. It was a ruse.

The Zodiac in another letter wanted to bring attention to a story about the bombing of a police station which killed one officer. He wanted them to know it wasn’t him. Why? Then in later letters he seems to want to claim he would kill a cop. It appears that the Zodiac may have regretted showing an underlying sympathy for the police station bombing. A love hate relationship. Could he have revealed his ambitions to be LE here?

The Joseph James DeAngelo crimes are separate and subsequent to the canonical Zodiac crimes, and have no bearing on the Zodiac case whatsoever, other than the two were bound by serial murder. Whether DeAngelo was a policeman or served in the military has no bearing on whether Zodiac served in the armed forces or was at any time part of law enforcement.

"Blue Rock Springs attack used a patrol cut off technique to box their car in".
The vehicle was supposedly distant enough behind, to be not described as boxed in. Even so, he didn’t box anybody in at LHR apparently (if we believe Owen). He fired 9 shots at BRS and failed to kill either victim immediately. Not a clinical marksman in this instance, I would suggest.

"Even Mageau tells us he thought the Zodiac was a cop because of a large flashlight shining in on them".
Carrying a flashlight in the dark doesn’t require police training or a level of inside knowledge, rather common sense in a dark parking lot. It was also supposedly a carry-handle flashlight. A guy walking towards a brown Corvair in relative darkness with a flashlight does not equate to law enforcement. Moreover, somebody with at least 5 brain cells. Michael Mageau thought a lot of things, but he wasn’t the ideal witness to pin your hat on (understandably).

"The Zodiac obviously has some awareness of police procedure. He even exploited the firecrackers on the 4th of July because there is a slower response to gunfire reports. He knows it because he is aware of this happening to LE on celebratory days".
Carrying a flashlight and boxing in a car to prevent a couple from reversing out, doesn’t require anything more than common sense. He may or may not have exploited the firecrackers at BRS, but his actions at PH, LB and LHR showed no such covering technique. I am sure anybody with a level of brain power greater than a cucumber, could easily have done an equally, if not a better job than Zodiac. Painting ordinary coppers as expert tacticians in avoiding detection is a little extreme.

"He knows about cross-jurisdiction problems which is why he hits in different ones".
Saying he knows about cross-jurisdiction problems is effectively saying you know that. We can surmise he chose his crimes in different jurisdictions to hinder detection, but it’s only supposition.

"He was aware of secretion status forensic testing which is why no saliva was found on the envelopes anywhere".
We don’t know that for certain until every Zodiac letter has been tested and unequivocally proven to contain no saliva. They may not have been licked, but that isn’t fact just yet.

"There is also a very interesting slang term that appears in some letters. He calls LE ‘pigs’. What is interesting is that the serial rapist/killer EARONS left messages with some of his targets to tell the ‘pigs’ this and that. EARONS was a cop. It was a ruse".
Many groups used the term "pigs" at that time, up to and including 1974 – the Symbionese Liberation Army, Weather Underground and BLA to name but three. The SLA used the term extensively – and none were cops. That term was widespread.

The Joseph James DeAngelo crimes are separate and subsequent to the canonical Zodiac crimes, and have no bearing on the Zodiac case whatsoever, other than the two were bound by serial murder. Whether DeAngelo was a policeman or served in the military has no bearing on whether Zodiac served in the armed forces or was at any time part of law enforcement.

"Blue Rock Springs attack used a patrol cut off technique to box their car in".
The vehicle was supposedly distant enough behind, to be not described as boxed in. Even so, he didn’t box anybody in at LHR apparently (if we believe Owen). He fired 9 shots at BRS and failed to kill either victim immediately. Not a clinical marksman in this instance, I would suggest…..

There are two sides to that. The case for EARONS is not the case for the Zodiac. That is true. However in criminology they are connected through the study of criminal behavior. What we learn about serial killers helps us to understand other cases. Helps us solve them also. For example the application of Bundy knowledge to Gary Ridgway by Keppel.

It is true that all the stuff you listed can be done by civilians. No one is going to dispute that. However they are things LE do and know and those point to that. It doesn’t point to a painter. It doesn’t point to a book author. It doesn’t point to a Doctor. It points at the military and LE. Sure civilians can do painting, authoring and have some medical knowledge but would we really be arguing as much against those positions as Military or LE? I found it very interesting with EARONS that any other jobs, no problem, but Military and LE, gets extra special critical treatment, yet there is no reason why those jobs should get any more special treatment than bringing up civilian jobs like truck drivers.

Furthermore that has explanatory power for why he got away with it. Instead of looking at the pool of Military and LE suspects, it’s back to civilian population again. So I don’t dispute civilians can do what cops or military do (as they are all humans) what I would dispute is that a civilian is as likely as someone with Military experience to have carried out the above. I call a spade a spade and that’s the lesson I learned from EARONS and JJD.

I certainly don’t dispute he could be military or police (or served with both), but I just don’t think there’s enough in his crimes or communications to draw such a conclusion one way or another. But I certainly accept BD Hollland that many people do. I just simply don’t know what his profession was. He could have been a ballet dancer with the balls to commit daring crimes (pun intended), who did a costume change as he exited stage left. Quite frankly, I’ve thought he could be military, a surveyor, a school teacher, a travelling salesman, a theatre costume designer, or worked in the newspapers. We may yet be shocked.

I certainly don’t dispute he could be military or police (or served with both), but I just don’t think there’s enough in his crimes or communications to draw such a conclusion one way or another. But I certainly accept BD Hollland that many people do. I just simply don’t know what his profession was. He could have been a ballet dancer with the balls to commit daring crimes (pun intended), who did a costume change as he exited stage left. Quite frankly, I’ve thought he could be military, a surveyor, a school teacher, a travelling salesman, a theatre costume designer, or worked in the newspapers. We may yet be shocked.

Well yeah, I wouldn’t conclude he is Military or is LE. Just it seems to point that way. Full-on skepticism would say there is zero evidence of a relationship to any occupations except serial killer. We might even say the 9-5 day job deductions are not hard evidence he had a job either. Could have been unemployed and simply targetted the times when his victimology was out and about. There is nothing that hard and fast but I do tend to think these things pointing that way are a clue to who the Zodiac is.

Also, the Presidio composite for the Zodiac is really detailed. It’s as good as they get. How does the Zodiac go about day to day looking like the composite but nobody gives him a second thought? I think it has to do with who he is in public life and that is what dissuades people looking for the frothing boogeyman back in the 1960s. Today we know lots of serial killers live in plain sight holding down respectable positions in society. In plain sight sort of thing.

"the Presidio composite for the Zodiac is really detailed. It’s as good as they get."

Hardly.

The artist — who never saw Zodiac’s face — only had generalities to work with, as one might expect from witnesses who briefly saw the subject from a distance of 60 feet, from above, and at night.

If you think every line and wrinkle on the face of the composite was at the direction of the witnesses, explain the massive scratch marks on the neck of the revised composite.

"the Presidio composite for the Zodiac is really detailed. It’s as good as they get."

Hardly.

The artist — who never saw Zodiac’s face — only had generalities to work with, as one might expect from witnesses who briefly saw the subject from a distance of 60 feet, from above, and at night.

If you think every line and wrinkle on the face of the composite was at the direction of the witnesses, explain the massive scratch marks on the neck of the revised composite.

EARONS is a great example here again.

Just like the Zodiac, EARONS was seen by a cop who is trained to remember these details. That is why we have the Visalia Ransacker composite.

This is a composite of someone seen in the commission of a crime and spotted by LE.

Now for Zodiac it is even better. We have multiple witnesses viewing him and then we have a cop corroborating what they saw.

LE are a different category of witnesses. They are called expert witnesses. Expert because they are trained LE to note these things. Civilians aren’t expert witnesses unless they are called to the stand for their expertise.#

That’s why it doesn’t get much better than Zodiac PH composite itself.

"Researchers found no differences in recall ability between police officers and civilians in stressful situations; however, both groups perform better in nonstressful than in stressful conditions. … Police officers testify as eyewitnesses in court just as do civilians".

"Criminal cases often hinge on the testimony of eyewitnesses; sometimes those eyewitnesses are police officers. Police eyewitnesses perform the same tasks as civilian eyewitnesses: They provide descriptions to police officers during interviews, attempt to identify perpetrators from lineups, and provide testimony during court trials. Laboratory research, along with evidence from actual court cases, has shown that eyewitness identifications are often unreliable or inaccurate. It is not clear if we can expect the abilities of a police officer as an eyewitness to be better than those of the average citizen".

Basically, the assertion that police officers are better eyewitnesses than ordinary folk, is a fallacious one.

http://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.co … witnesses/

Police officers are often believed to provide more reliable testimony than civilian eyewitnesses. We reviewed the available empirical evidence for this belief. There is some evidence to suggest that police officers do indeed report more accurate details about witnessed events than civilians do, particularly concerning crime-relevant details. That research finding does not translate directly to practice, however, since an average difference between police and civilian witnesses does not mean that a particular police officer in a specific case should be believed over a particular civilian eyewitness. More importantly, police officers are no better than civilians at identifying a perpetrator from a line-up and may even be more likely to make a false identification. Because eyewitness misidentifications have far more severe consequences than misreported event details, expert witnesses in court should warn decision-makers that police officers are at least as likely as the average eyewitness to falsely identify an innocent person.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … _Civilians

LE are a different category of witnesses. They are called expert witnesses. Expert because they are trained LE to note these things. Civilians aren’t expert witnesses unless they are called to the stand for their expertise.

Fouke had nothing to do with the Zodiac composite. And if he’s telling the truth, he didn’t look at Zodiac long enough to get much more than generalities.

Fouke said the guy he saw looked older and heavier than the sketch.

"Researchers found no differences in recall ability between police officers and civilians in stressful situations; however, both groups perform better in nonstressful than in stressful conditions. … Police officers testify as eyewitnesses in court just as do civilians".

Yes these are good papers and used by The Innocence Project a lot.

But the key point to those papers is that we don’t select LE as a witnesses over other civilian witnesses.

The papers acknowledge LE seem to score better ( https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs … .tb00351.x) but they don’t use that better score to select LE witnesses over civilian witnesses in application (real world). So if LE says yes that is the guy and someone else says no that’s not the guy, we don’t select LE over the civilian.

That research finding does not translate directly to practice, however, since an average difference between police and civilian witnesses does not mean that a particular police officer in a specific case should be believed over a particular civilian eyewitness.

The paper isn’t addressing corroboration between LE and additional witnesses which is what happened in the Zodiac Presidio attack. The defense can raise these points you did, if there is a conflict, but what kind of defense is there when a LE witness is in agreement with a civilian witness? That’s a number of hoops to jump through.

So yeah I agree with the findings in those articles, but corroboration by LE with a civilian witness is as strong as it gets with these things.

So I think the paper I linked there explains why the VR composite is very good. If that is good how much better would it be with additional civilian witnesses seeing the same person?

That’s Presidio Heights. Fouke acknowledges the composite as the person he saw. There isn’t much of a difference. He also describes how he was the only person he saw walking the road in the whole time they went to the crime scene. He also said they slowed down to get a look. He remembers looking at him from the front and back. The corroboration is why they saw the same person.

Your over-reliance on The GSK as an analogue for Zodiac is misplaced IMO. As Richard has pointed it, the two are unrelated and have no bearing on the other.

I can just as easily use Dennis Rader as an example of someone who was suspected of being LE, but was just a wannabe.

The Zodiac case won’t be solved by repeatedly drawing parallels with GSK.

And I don’t think you have provided any concrete evidence to suggest Zodiac was LE or military except the assumption that CJB was a Zodiac crime which there is no consensus on. Excluding Riverside, and you are left with mere speculation regarding a LE or military background for Zodiac.

A very popular theory before the Green River killings were solved was that the culprit was a cop. Instead it turned out to be a painter with an i.q. under 90.

I did a podcast about Zodiac possibly being law enforcement. https://youtu.be/LnH6B0xCsDg