I had posted this over on another thread, but I don’t want to clutter up the other poster’s thread about something else, so started a new thread. But this is what I posted over there about the 1963 Riddler

This is having to do with the correspondence back in November of 1963

Slip of paper bearing hand printing beginning "Dear Jim; Here I am again" and ending "the Zodiac & The Ridder".

Few things I noticed here. Why is everyone saying is should say HEED instead of HEAD

Suggestion…We should NEVER "EDIT" these or correct the grammar or spelling etc.

I wish we could see the original notes.

These Cryptos know exactly what they are doing, they are not illiterate, they are spelling it the way it is suppose to be.
My opinion of course… But the police report is not clear when they TYPE out something that is HANDWRITTEN, so much "gets lost" when they do that. ugh.

If we could see the originals there might also be little "somethings" in these notes(all commumications)
This is what they do. We have no idea what was said in between … … or was this all of it? if all of it, then the rest comes later in another message.

It is so hard to tell without looking at the original.

"Dear Gunny Kramer, This is the Zodiac " and ending "take head Zodiac"
Did it actually say… This is the (small t?) Zodiac speaking(was speaking actually on there? )
if that is a small "t" that is different that if the "t" was capitalized. The examiner is typing that as a small "t" (but I wonder)

gee "take" can mean so many things. if this is the Riddler also writing this one(Riddler identified themself in the other one for sure)
the take might mean "get ahold of" "head zodiac" (nothing to CHECK that with so who knows) we don’t have the whole thing BOO
head is also direct, lead the way, be in charge etc. but nothing to check it with.

Gunny is a burlap sack. burlap is a pal rub.. .meaning… problem pal. that could be why The Riddler was actually identifying themself. there was a problem.
that would make sense with "take head" Now I am really wondering if the word "speaking" was in there. or did it just say this is the Zodiac, small "t" and no Speaking?
"IF" there was a problem then this would make sense why The Riddler was identifying themself as the AUTHOR, rather than The Zodiac.

dang is there anyway in the world we can get these documents? no wait a minute… they have a problem of some kind.
ok let’s try this
Take head Zodiac. Did someone get arrested, did someone die?

"Dear Jim; Here I am again"… and ending… "the Zodiac & The Riddler".
I am assuming the 3 dots (…) are from the person typing this out. if not, then it would mean that the other part of this is going to come later, and not included now. so again, without the originals, we can’t tell what is going on.
The Riddler is Capitalized T

this is interesting as the RIDDLER can mean meaning things. We assume it means a person writing or saying something in a mysterious way to be figured out.

It can also mean a SPOILER. which made me think of the Halloween card. ( just something that clicked in my brain, means nothing, but my brain works that way)

a Riddler can be a shooter, but because it says "take head" and it said "the Zodiac" we know the word is Riddler

but if in this case the writer is separating the Zodiac from "The Riddler" . so know it is "The Riddler" identified for sure.

(this is MY NOTE myself and again MY opinion)
but The RIDDLER is ONE of the parts of The Zodiac. and if they really did not capitalize the "t" in "the Zodiac", then this person
is identifying themself as The Riddler (of the Zodiac). This is very interesting to me that The Riddler would be identifying themself. The Riddler has never identified themself in The Zodiac communications, and to use the small "t" for "the" in the Zodiac they are being very distinctive in letting this KRAMER person know EXACTLY PERSONALLY who they are. why would The Riddler be writing this communication ("IF" it is an authentic Zodiac Communication?, that is very strange) I wish I could see these communications, I could tell right off if this is real or not. It’s odd, that is for certain. But then again this is what 1963? or so? so maybe at the time The Riddler was writing their own correspondence.

Now I just looked around on the net and found more info on this over on Richard Grinell’s site.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-zodiac-riddler-notes
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what I really find interesting is in the comment section there is a post from Rubislaw (march 22, 2019)

”Gunny Kramer” could be Jewish film director,Stanley Kramer,known more a multitude of successful films,including ”High Noon”,”It’s a mad,mad,mad,mad world”,and ”On the Beach”…a film about a submarine,post nuclear holocaust,and featured The Golden Gate Bridge.
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Now the part about ON THE BEACH , a film about a submarine, post nuclear holocaust, and featured THE GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE…. is just plain dang weird to me…
so much so I want to find out who THAT RIDDLER in 1963. that was right at 56 years ago. What is interesting to me, is "IF" that were the Zodiac’s Riddler at that time, what happened to them? Is THAT Riddler still out here? Did they die in 1963? or what the heck. Why is it 56 years later, and it seems THAT RIDDLER is surfacing now. hmmmm

I’ve been thinking about this all night and today.

I’m going to distinguish between the different "riddlers" by calling one The Riddler(present) and The Riddler(1963)

and now we have Kramer and Jim…. (I don’t even know if these are real names)
Kramer MIGHT = Marker
Jim = ? Gym? = Exercise/operation

but if this is a real Zodiac communication, the CHECKS to this are either somewhere in the correspondence that we don’t have(or at least I don’t have it)
or their will be mention of them somewhere else. But if these are not real names(which is very likely) then with what little info available to me, I can’t tell what they are meaning.

Looking at Gunny Kramer again. this could be talking bout a Marker with a GUN… if that is the case, are we talking about either "a hit man" or and "assassin". ????
in that context, then Jim could be a gym or an "operation" And the GUNNY could actually be involved. "Take head". were two people going to kill the head guy? what?
now looking back at the Gunny again, we have burlap. lap is also course of action, instructions. If I had the rest of this stuff I could see where the CHECKS are and know exactly what the right words are, but without the rest of it I can’t be sure.

But why would one of The Zodiac be in an operation with another one of The Zodiacs to "HIt" or "ASSASINATE" the HEAD PERSON. The Head person was certainly alive and well at THAT TIME, so what the heck are they talking about. Now if we have the rest of that communication and could read it, then I could find the CHECKS in their and know who they were talking about. Obviously they are not talking about the "head" of The Zodiac(present). This is about two people who are planning on killing someone else. how strange, back then. And The Riddle writing their own correspondence. Why would they not have a "scribe" write it? that is the part that really makes no sense to me. The Riddler(Present) does not write their own correspondense, but maybe they did in 1963?? that is just weird.

oh wait a minute, it is a BUR LAP, so yes, this is about killing someone. Its a RUB Operation – it’s a murder. They are taking out some head person. Head person of what, can’t be their own head person.

Let me go look more

because this was 1963… and now here we are 56 years later, and I have to figure out what the heck Golden Gate is. I thought it was the Golden Gate Bridge. hmm maybe it is not the BRIDGE.

I know I sound crazy out here but believe me I am not; the Riddler resurfaced a few days before I got on this board. I came looking around to see what the heck was going on, and ran into a whole bunch of stuff going on. I rarely ever, almost NEVER EVER come out on these boards, but there is WAY TOO MUCH "chatter" and something is about to happen

Bridge = Connection / link / tie
Gate = Opening / Passage / can be a Lock
Golden = Bright / Brilliant / Glorious / Shining

We are in gate 13. Rebellion…
rebellion… Revolt…revolution…uprising…mutiny…riot

well we were certainly in the 60’s rebellion back then, 63. so who is The Riddler from 1963. what was going on then?

I need to go back to any other communications or thought to be communications at the same time. or was there ever any kind of communication about anything before this… could be something someone missed and did not recognize it as The Zodiac(present)

South Vietnamese leader Ngo Dinh Diem . and then a few weeks later JFK is assassinated.
hhmmmm… now I REALLY want to see what is in THAT Riddler (1963) Communication.

But who would know all of this stuff in 1963?
well actually, I guess a lot of people would

as time went on, more things happened

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so that is one thing going on in 1963
After that all kind of things started happening.
seems like 1964 really turned the world upside down, especially in USA and most definitely in Cali/ Frisco being a HUGE HOTBED for all the factions.
some in LA(Los Angeles) it just spread all over into the valley/ everywhere. The whole dang start was one big riot and rebellion. All kinds of groups
popping up everywhere, for any and every reason, many in opposition on the surface, but under the surface, plotting and planning together, helping one another.
Seems the one thing they all had in common was they did not like cops or the government. Then you add all of the drugs and all the protesting about everything, we had any number of people who could then become part of some strange happenings. And we definitely had a VERY SMART AND HIDDEN "RIDDLER" out here. and truth be told The Riddler had to be Riddling to someone else who understood them. so where are all of these "riddlers" today??? well, there has to be at least one still out here, because every so often they surface. But what are they trying to tell us?

what else was going on? and what does that have to do with what is going on now?

or maybe they just want to see if anyone else is still out here. Most are probably all dead now, wouldn’t you think? but there are most likely a few still around. so maybe years have passed, it is only natural for people to think about old friends and see if they are still around. I think we all do that.

here is something I found kind of interesting to look at. I have not really looked at it, but maybe I will.
I just want to make a note of this. I’m not even sure what year this would have come to anyone’s attention, but I need to figure it out

The 366 days of the year (including February 29) were printed on slips of paper. These pieces of paper were then each placed in opaque plastic capsules, which were then mixed in a shoebox and then dumped into a deep glass jar. Capsules were drawn from the jar one at a time and opened.

The first number drawn was 258 (September 14), so all registrants with that birthday were assigned lottery number 1. The second number drawn corresponded to April 24, and so forth. All men of draft age (born January 1, 1944 to December 31, 1950) who shared a birth date would be called to serve at once. The first 195 birthdates drawn were later called to serve in the order they were drawn; the last of these was September 24.[5]

Also on December 1, 1969, a second lottery, identical in process to the first, was held with the 26 letters of the alphabet. The first letter drawn was "J", which was assigned number 1. The second letter was "G", and so on, until all 26 letters were assigned numbers. Among men with the same birthdate, the order of induction was determined by the ranks of the first letters of their last, first, and middle names.[6] Anyone with initials "JJJ" would have been first within the shared birthdate, followed by "JGJ", "JDJ", and "JXJ"; anyone with initials "VVV" would have been last.

SSS Draft scatterplot of the days of the year (horizontal) and their lottery numbers (vertical). December birthdays (far right) were assigned many low numbers (bottom), representing early induction, and few high numbers (top).
A random procedure will not distribute the lottery numbers uniformly over the months of the year, but this was what some people expected. It happened that, November and December births, or numbers 306 to 366, were assigned mainly to lower draft order numbers representing earlier calls to serve. This led to complaints that the lottery was not truly random as the legislation required. Only five days in December—December 2, 12, 15, 17, and 19—were higher than the last call number of 195. Had the days been evenly distributed (which would NOT be the result of a random process), 14 days in December would have been expected to remain uncalled. From January to December, the rank of the average draft pick numbers were 5, 4, 1, 3, 2, 6, 8, 9, 10, 7, 11, and 12. A Monte Carlo simulation found that the probability of a random order of months being this close to the 1–12 sequence expected for unsorted slips was 0.09%.[8].An analysis of the procedure suggested that "The capsules were put in a box month by month, January through December, and subsequent mixing efforts were insufficient to overcome this sequencing

Thinking about the post before this one …. this part

Also on December 1, 1969, a second lottery, identical in process to the first, was held with the 26 letters of the alphabet. The first letter drawn was "J", which was assigned number 1. The second letter was "G", and so on, until all 26 letters were assigned numbers. Among men with the same birthdate, the order of induction was determined by the ranks of the first letters of their last, first, and middle names.[6] Anyone with initials "JJJ" would have been first within the shared birthdate, followed by "JGJ", "JDJ", and "JXJ"; anyone with initials "VVV" would have been last.

if it were based on the 26 letters of the alphabet, and if VVV would be the last… what happened to WXYZ ?
and how do we find out the sequence of the letters? I wonder if there is a record of that somewhere?

now this is later on but still, I want to look at this.

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I believe The Zodiac was changing their KEYS around all the time. so by 1969 things can change.
so maybe the instructions changed now and then to correlate to the drafting system. I’ve never looked at it .. maybe I should.
The communications always had different instructions in them.
I wish we have all the communications. But at least we have quite a few

The Riddler who surfaces out here now and then uses the same KEYS. Just interesting

as time went on, more things happened

That’s a great line

as time went on, more things happened

That’s a great line

that means = and I’m not saying haha

Seriously though I want to know if THAT Riddler(1963) is the same as The Riddler of The Zodiac.
"IF" it is, it’s very interesting that they would have been surfacing out there in 1963 as THEMSELF. That is just crazy.

And "IF" not the same then weird they are saying they are "the(small"t" Zodiac & The Riddler) . not just any Riddler but The Riddler and connected to Zodiac.

Could this possibly the same Riddler; then and later on in The Zodiac case?

and if so, what prompted THAT THEN?

If only we have the whole commuication.
I wonder if any other communciations were going on back then pre-64. Especially, ones mentioning any groups.

I’ll go looking for anything dated pre-64. This one is November 63, so very close to 64, but it is still pre-64…

Okay, I just not stumbled onto the thread by CRAGLE

Pacific Stars and Stripes Newspaper 18/1/1970
and I posted over there too.

This is the SAME RIDDLER.
now this is REALLY Weird

SOME authority is coding back to THIS RIDDLER(1970) and I believe it is the same RIDDLER as the 1963 RIDDLER.

the news article is TOTALLY coded BACK to the RIDDLER.
but get this I am not convinced THE RIDDLER is alone and wrighting all of this himslef. He has at least ONE SCRIBE… and OTHERS are reading these codes.

I’m a little hesitant to do this, but oh well what the hell, I’m surfaced NOW, so I guess I just have to go on. if someone wants me to shut up, now is the time to TELL ME… because if not,
no one will need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. And I’m not going to have one more cup of coffee for the road today or ever, I’ve switched to hot chocolate… unless of course
I start hearing that song, Jive Talkin’ , and if not, then someone is going to be dancing to the RED RIVER VALLEY. I would much rather be listening to Silence it golden but my "i’s" still C
yah I was a crazy mixed up kid for sure… but now I’m just WAY OUT THERE. but I don’t intend on jumping off the planet. This is f’ing spooky to the max. Just some general bs
I don’t plan on taking a vacation any time soon, so if I’m not around, I’m on the dark side of the moon I guess
now I’m going to sit and wait til someone is playing THE BIRD IS THE WORD.

I was trying to get CRAGLES news article over here so I can tie this in, but I can’t get it on here boo
hmm I’ll figure it out.

can sommeone else get it over here ??? please

here is the link to it
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=4118

until I can get the article(that Cragle posted) over here… it mentions the murder Lake Berryessa Park Incident

the date is September 27th…

so lets go see what was happening on September 27th

27 Sept, 1963 – FBI Cracks Down On Racketeers
September 27th, 1963 : In a US wide crackdown on racketeers in 43 major cities IRS officials working together with the FBI have arrested thousands who are to be charged with tax evasion.

27 Sept, 1963 – Bureau of the Census Clock
September 27th, 1963 : According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census the US population is recorded at 190,000,000. The resident population of the United States, projected on 06/19/08 at 15:33 GMT (EST+5) is 304,381,635 U.S. Bureau of the Census Clock. The resident population of the United States, projected on 09/18/2017 at 21:13 UTC (+4) is 325,906,759. U.S. Bureau of the Census Clock

27 Sept, 1964 – Warren Commission
September 27th, 1964 : The Warren commission released its report with their official conclusions on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. "Lee Harvey Oswald, hostile to his world and hungry for fame, assassinated President John F. Kennedy and shot his way to infamy without the help of any conspiracy.
President John F. Kennedy Public Domain Photo
Full Size Original Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:John … r_photo_po

we will do the other dates later…
but when you read what the feds are saying back to THE RIDDLER(1970) in the news, let’s see what happens.
I believe it is the same RIDDLER of 1963

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