Here’s the list of the letters and cards credited to our boy, with the "score" references they contained.

November 8th 1969 "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7"
Cheri Jo Bates/Paul Stine/Darlene Ferrin/Betty Lou Jensen/David Faraday/…
November 9th 1969 "Up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people."
December 20th 1969 "I will loose control again and take my nineth & posibly tenth victom."
Leona Roberts OR Betty Ruth Aardsma OR Elaine Louise Davis
April 20th 1970 "I have killed 10 people to date"
Pat Tan OR Eva Lucienne Blau OR Marie Antoinettee Anstey OR Judith Hakari OR Patricia King OR Cosettte Ellison OR Cindy Lee Mellin
June 26th 1970 "I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a .38" (Zodiac) -12 SFPD – 0
Richard Radetich
July 26th 1970 "I shall (on top of everything else) torture all 13 of my slaves…." SFPD = 0 Zodiac = 13
UNKNOWN!
October 5th 1970 "In fact It’s just one big thirteenth"
Donna Lass OR Ronald Tsukamolo?
October 27th 1970 4-TEEN
Nancy Marie Bennallack
March 13th 1971 SFPD – 0 Zodiac – 17+
Shirley Elizabeth Stevens/Carol Beth Hilburn/Robin Ann Graham/Sunny Lyn Dagowitz/Debra T. Pscholka/Lyndia Christine Kanes
March 22nd 1971 "Sought victim 12"
not coherent but Lisa Smith (first SRHM?) and Michael Duane Burnett went missing in those nine days
January 29th 1974 Me – 37 SFPD – 0
many more..

It would be nice to know which ones were published and when, of course. I’ll try and find and list that information – help appreciated.
Meantime, as to the scores, and perhaps on one score in particular, comments, anyone?

I believe that with the "November 8th 1969 "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7"" Zodiac was taking credit for the Snoozy/Furlong murders which he did not commit but that was not known until Karl Werner was arrested April 29, 1971. Zodiac’s last letter until the 1974 letters was the March 13, 1971 LA Times letter. I think that Werner’s arrest for murders that Zodiac claimed rocked Zodiac’s world and may have been the reason why Zodiac quit writing for three years.

I agree Seagull.

At the very least, we know he claimed an August killing, but never sent us his usual proof about it. Why? Not to mention, he didn’t write August on the door at LB. And was this is first sign of his BS?

***

July 26th, 1970: As far as I know, that letter was never published, yet claimed "13".

October 5, 1970: STILL claiming 13? No way. The last known published info (Paul Avery June 30, 1970) stated 12 victims. Certainly not like Zodiac…..’yep, still 13′! –Not Zodiac, imo.

March 22, 1971: "Sought" victim 12. Sought…a convenient word to use for someone who didn’t know exactly when Zodiac did what. Not to mention, Zodiac claimed victim 12 BEFORE Donna even went missing. Are we to say he just went looking for her? Nah…

QT – good work, and I thank you muchly, but right at that first hurdle:

November 8th 1969 "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7"
Cheri Jo Bates/Paul Stine/Darlene Ferrin/Betty Lou Jensen/David Faraday/…

…that’s only five not seven, even with Cheri in there, and the months don’t match her murder, either. Very odd.

For seven "possibles", the San Jose Snoozy/Furlong murders are included by Paul Avery in his front page article of Wednesday November 12th 1969, yes.
In that same article, Chief of Detectives Barton Collins is quoted as saying "I don’t think he’s (Zodiac) connected with my case at all." Well done, Collins.

Good point about the Berryessa door, Tahoe. It had occured to me, that.
(It’s very strange. He can’t have forgotten what he wrote on the door, or what month the attack at Berryessa was, could he? Very confusing!)
You think March 22nd 1971 "Sought victim 12" thing might just be BS? That was my first thought, way-back-when. It’s an out-of-date claim? Poor homework?
BTW, Did GS manage to pad it to 37? I haven’t looked at the back of the book lately.

I think that Werner’s arrest for murders that Zodiac claimed rocked Zodiac’s world and may have been the reason why Zodiac quit writing for three years.

I to-and-fro about that, D. You may be right, why not? But, he never bothered to explain his "count" after all – it wasn’t explicit.
And by the time Karl Frances Warner was arrested he was claiming plenty more.

By the way, Karl wasn’t considered for Berryessa, wiki says, because "Warner had been residing in Marlborough, Massachusetts at the time of some of the earlier Zodiac slayings." And he was the wrong size and weight too, probably. And age. And had no gun, maybe. And different handwriting.
This is an interesting article. Might this juicy front page of the Chronicle have convinced our guy to put them on his Little List? I wonder.
http://www.maebrussell.com/1960s%20Terr … layer.html
(Motorcycles huh? Ted K., anyone? But I digress!!)

Which of the scores on which of the letters is valid?

Here’s the list of the letters and cards credited to our boy, with the "score" references they contained.
It would be nice to know which ones were published and when, of course. I’ll try and find and list that information – help appreciated.
Meantime, as to the scores, and perhaps on one score in particular, comments, anyone?

It’s an odd chronology. That’s my initial impression of it. It is a chronology though, just odd.

At times part of me wants to weed out the ones that don’t make sense or are out of sequence quite drastically. So say we do/did that? Not sure it clears up too much because we have the problem then of what’s left. What does that correspond to and how and when, exactly. I completely understand your objections in this respect T and Deb’s, queries about the validity of what is supposedly being claimed. I can’t really separate the two unfortunately.

I have my own reasons for thinking that they Z communications and I also, in a weird way, can almost see how what might be BS could be being presented along with stuff that isn’t. The issue of offering proof is maybe the stronger of the guidelines to help but then by nature of the chronology itself you could say that he didn’t offer proof way more often than he did. He maybe even backs that up in the Nov 9th 1969 letter. "…end of Oct I have killed 7" "I shall no longer announce". Well he did announce in the context of the score, so maybe he meant give proof or information.

He’s probably true to his word here because in the tally he skips the next one. Number 8. Whether he actually killed anyone is always opened to debate but he certainly didn’t announce No.8 at all. He does it again, he skips number 11.

So it’s not exactly easy is it? So many variables even when we strip it back. Going back it overall I could imagine it’s all him, just don’t know what sense it supposed to make. Just read Smithy’s previous post – Did he forget? God only knows but there’s hints that’s a possibility but forgetful and truthful, or forgetful and BS’ing? There’s also the 17+. Another bit of vagueness or an indicator that he didn’t pay too much attention. He didn’t even start off with this ‘score’ system. He sort of does with the car door but then ignores it on the Stine letter and then implements it properly on the dripping pen card. He leaves it off some later ones and the scores make larger jumps. So even that’s not a constant to help.

I sometimes wonder about the pines card. From the POV it being him. Sought and victim. That’s kinda descriptive isn’t it? One victim and one number. Sought implies trying to find. The number 12. Nearly one month after he claims 12 in his score, he sends the Kathleen Johns letter. It’s interesting that he skips 11 in his score because she would have been No.11 and, thankfully wasn’t, No.12 and No.13 as well. Just shy of nine months later he send the pines card and I wonder if he was trying to imply he was looking for her + her baby. I mean after skipping 11 then moving on to 12 he could just be using 12 a rough indicator of who he meant, it’s not like he was making much sense anyway. The pines card isn’t technically a score and there’s no score on the card. Like there wasn’t on the HC card, which could well have been because it wasn’t a score, just a threat of a reserved slot?

All surmising of course. Now if we somehow found out that KJ was up in that area between the time of her abduction and the pines card then that would be pretty freaky. Even despite that I still find it interesting that it was 12 on that card after the missing 11 and the timing’s in relation to the KJ incident. In his head he could have been referring to a surrogate in that respect. He did say he was going to kill her and he’s shown precedence for surrogate thinking after saying he was going to do something and then not, actually in the 12 tally letter proper. "But now school is out for summer so I punished them in another way…..". The possible Donna Lass connection may just have been, what we suspect of him, a misdirection claim as the carrier for an obscure threat.

Ok. sorry that was so long. I’ll stop (or start) thinking now.

I believe that with the "November 8th 1969 "Des July Aug Sept Oct = 7"" Zodiac was taking credit for the Snoozy/Furlong murders which he did not commit but that was not known until Karl Werner was arrested April 29, 1971. Zodiac’s last letter until the 1974 letters was the March 13, 1971 LA Times letter. I think that Werner’s arrest for murders that Zodiac claimed rocked Zodiac’s world and may have been the reason why Zodiac quit writing for three years.

I totally agree about Snoozy and Furlong, Seagull. Remember Z promised to go on a "kill rampage" and to kill "over a dozen people" over the weekend following his 7/31/69 letters. This didn’t quite happened but, to me, "Des July Aug Sept Oct=7" is implicitly claiming at least one victim in August. I just don’t see Z claiming victims (Mageau, Hartnell) that he failed to kill and it wouldn’t explain the inclusion of August in this equation. Snoozy and Furlong were killed on Sunday, August 3rd near San Jose. Their murders were headline news and there was almost immediately speculation that they may have been Zodiac victims.

http://www.maebrussell.com/1960s%20Terr … layer.html

When the case was still unsolved three months later, Zodiac decided to "make good" on his promise of a weekend kill rampage and take credit for two notorious murders that really sound nothing like him. At least that’s how I see it…

This is a good discussion, IMO. It’s interesting to look at whether Zodiac, even if he didn’t kill anyone after Stine, might have chosen to implicitly claim certain victims out of his favorite newspaper. Furlong and Snoozy (and the fact that he lied about so many other things) make me intensely distrust his scorekeeping. That’s an interesting point, Seagull, about his possible reaction to Karl Werner’s arrest. He had just upped his scoreboard and soon after may have been caught cheating and lost two points. Then again, he was intentionally vague enough to have "plausible deniability" for all of his later claims just like with Radetich and Johns.

E., isn’t that the same link I provided earlier? Great minds think alike.
Oh! And a little deja vu. http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/ … f=57&t=922

If you’d like to start a "Zodiac was inspired by things he read in the Chronicle" thread, I think we could come up with a few of those, too.
(Like the Zodiac watch adverts, the report on Kathleen pointed out by Tahoe recently, the report we’ve both just linked, referring to the San Jose girls, and the bomb campaign going on in New York. Just off the top of my head…..).
Page 4 of the same Chronicle copy in the link you gave on ZKF has the bombings mentioned. Interesting.

Karl Frances Warner, btw.

Karl Frances Warner, btw.

I politely ignored this when you corrected me but since you brought it up again…..

Is Not!!!

At the State of California Inmate Locator he is listed as Werner. They are probably right.

http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/ you need to agree to their terms before doing a search.

E., isn’t that the same link I provided earlier? Great minds think alike.
Oh! And a little deja vu. http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/ … f=57&t=922

If you’d like to start a "Zodiac was inspired by things he read in the Chronicle" thread, I think we could come up with a few of those, too.
(Like the Zodiac watch adverts, the report on Kathleen pointed out by Tahoe recently, the report we’ve both just linked, referring to the San Jose girls, and the bomb campaign going on in New York. Just off the top of my head…..).
Page 4 of the same Chronicle copy in the link you gave on ZKF has the bombings mentioned. Interesting.

Karl Frances Warner, btw.

Indeed it is, smithy. I think I actually plagiarized one of my own posts somewhere for the link. Yeah, I’ve thought of starting a thread like that but it’s awfully ambitious. I really think Z’s connection with the newspaper media, particularly the Chronicle, is an important topic. How much of what he wrote can be considered as a direct response to something written about him or about the case in the Chronicle? I’m thinking of his point by point rebuttal of the "clumsy criminal" article in the Bus Bomb letter, possibly citing the caliber of the weapon Sgt. Radetich was killed by etc. etc. Was there public speculation in the Chronicle about any of the possible victims discussed here being possible Zodiac victims? If anyone else wants to take on smithy’s idea for a thread, have at it!

At the State of California Inmate Locator he is listed as Werner. They are probably right.

Yep. Speaking of Werner, I created a thread for him: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=889

I politely ignored this when you corrected me but since you brought it up again…..
Is Not!!!

D., how DARE you be polite, allowing me to continue making the same mistake. Ha!
Thanks for the correction. (Oh dear, Welsh Chappie will be along in a minute, I fear.)
Thanks for the thread, T., I’ll go over there and apologise again.

Meantime – E., don’t weasel!
Your turn to start a thread. You’ve just brought up a couple of things I hadn’t thought of – I think a thread would be productive.

Back to this topic – after this awful hijack for whats-his-name(!) – it does seem we can’t sensibly rely on any of the "scores" (body counts) mentioned in any of the letters, can we? Not even the first reference to one.
Yes, that reflects the fact that the Zodiac was happy to mislead the police and public about the extent of his transgressions… I can go along with that.
BUT, when he was still trying to prove his existence, when he was being critiqued in the press by members of the police force(s) involved, and when the newspapers still weren’t mentioning his "Zodiac" moniker (before October 15th, I think that was), I have to say I think it’s astounding that AFTER Berryessa he suddenly introduced August murder(s) which weren’t referred to on the door. It’s just nutty, that. Elementary.
As usual with Berryessa, I’m still trying to figure that out.

3/13/71: score 17+.
3/22/71: "sought Victim 12"
Anyone figure out the above? Makes no sense to me.