I have to say, BDHOLLAND, your arguments and theories seem a bit "wacky".

I have to say, BDHOLLAND, your arguments and theories seem a bit "wacky".

No one is impressed with anonymous IDs trolling people except other trolls who have nothing to offer anyone except personal insults and can’t take anything away either. Hence the rules and why that troll avenue is a complete waste of one’s life for nothing but earning yourself bad karma.

I really don’t care about those opinions because they are absolutely meaningless. There is nothing logical about those emotional blurts. They are non-functional.

Well, back to the original subject, the main problem is we’re not even 100% sure CJB was murdered by the Zodiac killer. Z claimed so but there is just no actual proof he was the one who slained poor Cheri Jo Bates.
Also, we don’t know if Bryan Hartnell’s car was disabled. Could be a very interesting common point with the Riverside case but as far as I know, we do not have that information. Moreover, the killer did not wait for the young couple to get back to their car to attack them, just like it looks like he did with Miss Bates. He attacked them on the lake shore, and actually I believe he spotted the couple before he spotted their car, attacked and stabbed them, then spotted Hartnell’s car thanks to his car keys. So to answer your question, my take is that there is no particular connection between the Zodiac killer and the VW car brand.

Well, back to the original subject, the main problem is we’re not even 100% sure CJB was murdered by the Zodiac killer. Z claimed so but there is just no actual proof he was the one who slained poor Cheri Jo Bates.
Also, we don’t know if Bryan Hartnell’s car was disabled. Could be a very interesting common point with the Riverside case but as far as I know, we do not have that information. Moreover, the killer did not wait for the young couple to get back to their car to attack them, just like it looks like he did with Miss Bates. He attacked them on the lake shore, and actually I believe he spotted the couple before he spotted their car, attacked and stabbed them, then spotted Hartnell’s car thanks to his car keys. So to answer your question, my take is that there is no particular connection between the Zodiac killer and the VW car brand.

I think the point of disabling it is that if anything went wrong no one is going anywhere fast. Same with Cheri Jo Bates. It is also a reason to approach them if they decide to make their way back up. It puts him in control. I don’t see this as being much of an extra effort for this guy at all. Hence why I think this is a good candidate for held back info which we know exits for this crime. Also they didn’t know about Cheri Jo Bates back then so holding back something that could have been an important connection would just be a coincidence.

Did you know Hartnell had the keys still on him? He must have picked them up because they were in his jacket pocket at the hospital. The Zodiac never took them away. Same with Cheri Jo Bates and whoever left the keys in the ignition.

He already had access to these cars I think because he knew their failings and how to exploit them. He never needed those keys.

He took Paul Stine’s keys though. That’s odd because out of all the cars he would in theory need keys for, this one wasn’t one of them after the condition he left it in. He could easily have taken off in CJBs or Hartnell’s car. I believe it is EARONS who actually stole some of his victims cars and drove off around the block with them.

Anyway the point is yeah we know what the facts are but I just want to open up this line of speculation for people because there isn’t much out there on this suggestion.

But we still don’t know if Hartnell’s car was disabled, right?

Source to the fact that Hartnell had his car keys with him at the hospital, please? Anyway, he said he offered his keys to the assailant so the assailant must have noticed they were VW keys. Then, coming back to his own car, he sees the Karman-Ghia and does the math, or maybe he even saw it walking down TO the lake.
To sum things up, absolutely nothing indicates that Z disabled any car, ever, or even waited anyone near their car to assault them.

"I think this is a good candidate for held back info which we know exits for this crime. Also they didn’t know about Cheri Jo Bates back then so holding back something that could have been an important connection would just be a coincidence" I can’t see your point here.

All in all, I think you give too much importance to something that is just a detail (I mean CJB and CS-BH both riding in a VW car).

Okay, but the Zodiac could still have seen the keys if BH showed them to him and thus know what car to write his message on.

Okay, but the Zodiac could still have seen the keys if BH showed them to him and thus know what car to write his message on.

Sure there are all sorts of angles to this. I get some people are going to say nothing here but I am interested in the small % that might see something important. Sometimes that is all I need be it now or later.

This is a cold case. Not a fresh one. Hence what has been tried and tested IMO is not the way forward for various reasons I won’t get into.

All this stuff is fine for current cases like the stats but with something this old and going nowhere fast this is the sort of thing historical research can shed light on at least.

Except there is nothing important in CJB and BH both driving the same brand of car. We don’t even know if CJB was killed by Zodiac, for starters… Making such assumptions knowing they can’t but remain assumptions is useless :/

And this is why you receive so much “hate”.

You have been given reason after reason and fact after fact, and you still proudly cling to the idea that Zodiac targeted people because of their cars and his ability to disable them. You do this despite the fact that there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Hartnell’s car was tampered with or any of the cars in the canonical crimes for that matter.

Nevertheless, you are dogged in this flawed premise and sanctimoniously dismiss anyone who disagrees with you or corrects you as a “troll”.

The bottom line is you aren’t here to learn or collaborate. You’re here seeking validation for your own half-cocked theories. You’re not filled with curiosity or inquisitiveness; you’re filled with hubris and arrogance.

I wouldn’t say he is a troll, but he has clearly fallen into the Zodiac trap, that is giving too much importance to what-ifs and adding insignificant "info" to a case that already contains way too much of it.

And this is why you receive so much “hate”.

You have been given reason after reason and fact after fact, and you still proudly cling to the idea that Zodiac targeted people because of their cars and his ability to disable them. You do this despite the fact that there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that Hartnell’s car was tampered with or any of the cars in the canonical crimes for that matter.

Nevertheless, you are dogged in this flawed premise and sanctimoniously dismiss anyone who disagrees with you or corrects you as a “troll”.

The bottom line is you aren’t here to learn or collaborate. You’re here seeking validation for your own half-cocked theories. You’re not filled with curiosity or inquisitiveness; you’re filled with hubris and arrogance.

Your source was Tom Voigt and you declared yourself right and all other sources wrong including the police report in the contemporary I quoted. You put a modern view over that.

End of.

There is no justification for personally attacking people.

So what if you think it means nothing. If you have nothing to contribute go elsewhere instead of trolling people with personal attacks. I disagree with your analysis. It’s bad for the reasons I have given.

I wouldn’t say he is a troll, but he has clearly fallen into the Zodiac trap, that is giving too much importance to what-ifs and adding insignificant "info" to a case that already contains way too much of it.

What I am doing is just going through something I never saw addressed before. The problem with these general claims things have nothing to do with anything is no one is omniscient enough to know that in this context of a historical crime unless the police reports say so.

One can only say they think it means nothing especially in these circumstances where there are confounding variables everywhere because of the case age and just getting at the raw historical data.

I don’t know about other people but I am able to walk and chew gum. Basically hold several different models working different ways for comparative analysis.

The trap I see is the inventing problems of mutual exclusivity where none existed. Neither this or that, but can be both or all. Such as the Zodiac symbol being a cross hair, celtic cross symbol, compass. The Zodiac has used it as all three. Oh and as example of radians also. There is far too much conflict in areas where none need be.

My thinking is everyone’s research can have value of something to me. That’s why I just don’t go around crapping on everyone’s thoughts. Doing that goes nowhere. It’s an emotional thing that researchers actually have no use for and if anything is just a wedge being thrown in by others. It’s also what held the community back for decades now. If people want to rehash the same stuff they can do that elsewhere. I am interested in using what I learned from EARONS for example.

The proof I suppose is in the pudding. It’s what comes out of it.

Problem here, my friend, is that your analysis is not really good either, IMO. First, I have a hard time believing Zodiac killed CJB. And I also can’t picture someone killing people because of the brand of car they drive, but I admit we’ve seen weirder logic in criminal history (search for Jean-Marie Von Matt if you want a thrilling example).

If you have nothing to contribute go elsewhere instead of trolling people with personal attacks. I disagree with your analysis. It’s bad for the reasons I have given.

I have been posting here for years, and have never had issues with anyone – until you. Moreover, you have said you have received hate on reddit, zk.com, and here. Want to know what those three places have in common? You. Maybe you should start to consider that you are the problem instead of calling everyone trolls.

You want to disagree with my analysis? Fine. But what you’re really doing is disagreeing with facts to prevent your premise from falling apart.

1, There’s NO EVIDENCE that any of the cars in the canonical crimes were tampered with. FULL STOP.

2. William Crow is on record about what he doing the night of Dec. 20, 1968, and it had nothing to do with working on the motor. FULL STOP.

if you want to make huge fallacious leaps of logic, go ahead, but don’t pretend they’re “analysis”.

I’m really done with you this time. I will no longer reply to any of your posts nor engage in any of your threads. You can go on your quixotic goose chase without me.