Richard, Subject: August victims and lone kills… Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:17 pm

Wasn’t the October ‘kill’ supposed to be Paul Stine?

I still cannot understand why any of these disappearances and murders of lone women are regarded as possible Zodiac crimes.

Zodiac sent his "Dripping Pen" card on 8 November 1969. After his crosshair mark inside the card, he wrote: "Des, July, Aug, Sept, Oct = 7.

In his 9 November 1969 letter, he states: "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people…."

It would seem from his previous letters that he had already claimed Betty Lou and David killed in December 68, Darlene killed in July, Cecilia Shepherd killed in September, and Paul Stine killed October 11. He does not refer to Mageau or to Hartnell in his "score" because he specifically is referring to having killed 7 people, and those two survived his attacks.

This, then, is five of the seven – so there are two others between Dec 68 and Oct 69. At least one of them (if not both) would have been in August 69, since he lists Aug in his card. Note that he does not state specifically how many or who he killed in either of these two November letters.

Assuming that Zodiac is being truthful, and at least referring to actual murder victims (whether or not he killed them) then one of those two unaccounted for victims could have been killed in August and another could have been killed in one of the other months listed. However, the possibility of Zodiac referring to/claiming the murders of Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Gay Furlong (both 13) in August 69 would seem a more logical conclusion. But keeping an open mind, the other scenario could be just as possible.

Regarding Zodiac killing lone women, I guess it would depend on how you view his patterns. He certainly claimed the abduction of Kathleen Johns. Although she had her baby with her, he did not know that until she got into the car with him – so he had thought she was alone. And Paul Stine was a "lone kill" – probably the most likely one that could actually be tied to Zodiac.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:18 am

Zodiac sent his "Dripping Pen" card on 8 November 1969. After his crosshair mark inside the card, he wrote: "Des, July, Aug, Sept, Oct = 7.

Which always brings me back to the car door and no August.

Why would it not be ok to write it on the car door (for whatever reason) at the end of September, but it’s ok a month later to include it?

, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:51 am

I think it was because he was giving his his first middle and last initials (not necessarily in that order) D J S.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:29 am

Zodiac sent his "Dripping Pen" card on 8 November 1969. After his crosshair mark inside the card, he wrote: "Des, July, Aug, Sept, Oct = 7.

Which always brings me back to the car door and no August.

Why would it not be ok to write it on the car door (for whatever reason) at the end of September, but it’s ok a month later to include it?

Maybe whatever AUG crime he was taking credit for was solved by then? Or maybe since he was in a hurry to get out of Berryessa after just attacking 2 people, he was in a hurry and didnt take the time to post about the crimes he falsely claimed were his, but rather only wrote down the ones he really did.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:49 am

Most of these murders and disappearances of lone women involved a home invasion element and a very hands-on means of murder, sometimes including sexual assault. Zodiac wasn’t about the sex, was an outdoors kind of guy, and, Berryessa aside, usually opted for something less than up-close-and-personal. I’d be more inclined to agree if you suggested those women were early victims of Ted Bundy.

Why would it not be ok to write it on the car door (for whatever reason) at the end of September, but it’s ok a month later to include it?

It’s called laughably bad backpedaling. He never killed anyone in August.

Richard, Subject: Missing and murdered women… Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:50 am

Most of these murders and disappearances of lone women involved a home invasion element and a very hands-on means of murder, sometimes including sexual assault. Zodiac wasn’t about the sex, was an outdoors kind of guy, and, Berryessa aside, usually opted for something less than up-close-and-personal. I’d be more inclined to agree if you suggested those women were early victims of Ted Bundy…..

I believe that you are referring to some of the many "possible" victims mentioned in the index to Graysmith’s book, and perhaps to others mentioned over the years by Zodiac researchers? If so, I tend to agree with you regarding Zodiac’s overall patterns and preferences which can be seen in the attacks most closely associated with him. There is no indication in his early attacks that he was one to break into a home, commit rape or sexual crimes, etc.

The disappearance of Ann Bernice Burns/Duncan which I posted earlier is NOT one listed by Graysmith or anyone else that I know of as a possible Zodiac victim. All that I currently know about her case is what I posted, and there is no evidence that she was attacked at home or sexually assaulted. Also no suspect was identified as to having abducted her (if she was abducted). She did, in fact, go missing from San Francisco (Zodiac’s home base) on 3 October 1969 and has remained missing to this day. Unfortunately, there is simply not much information or evidence available in her case. She went missing during a time period in which Zodiac claimed 7 victims, 5 of which are "known".

As you mention, Zodiac was something of "an outdoors kind of guy". I think that if he continued his killings after Paul Stine, it is quite possible and likely that he followed the pattern seen in the Kathleen Johns attack. That is, cruising around looking for a lone woman driving a car in a remote area. He probably was not looking for sex, but rather for a weak victim that he might be able to overpower. He might simply think a GUY more likely to fight back, and after all, he hadn’t been as successful in killing men. Perhaps learning from his failures, he shifted gears to selecting and killing lone victims.

As with Kathleen Johns, he could offer help after disabling a woman’s car in some way, or simply look for a lone woman whose car had broken down or run out of gas. He played on a potential victim’s helplessnes with an incapacitated motor vehicle and could get close to them by pretending to offer assistance. I could post a few California cases of missing women from that time frame which illustrate this exact MO.

In all of Zodiac’s generally accepted/confirmed attacks, the victims were attacked in or near their own cars on public roads and in somewhat remote places. The attacker is also known to have driven his own vehicle in all but the Paul Stine murder – and it is possible that he walked to where it was parked afterward. In each instance, the killer did something to the victims’ vehicle as well; shooting bullets into them, staining them with blood, wiping it down with a cloth, writing on a door, and actually burning the vehicle. That is a pattern to consider in trying to link other prior and subsequent attacks to him.

Other possible connections to consider might be in the manner of shooting and stabbing victims, in the way they were tied, in the way bodies were positioned (if he positioned them), and other details which appear in the "known" attacks. Fingerprints, footprints, descriptions, actual forensics and ballistics of weapons are also possible connecting factors. Time of day, time of month, astrological phases, would all be considerations in trying to link a case to this guy.

As you point out, some of the "possible" Zodiac victims do not seem to fit his pattern and may well fit the pattern of Ted Bundy or any of about a dozen other serial killers who lived in or travelled through California at the same time.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:03 pm

The problem with this case is that Zodiac did change his MO – probably in an attempt to further confuse LE or show that no one was safe from him. Most people have got him down as a couple killer who mainly shot his victims. If he was responsible for Bates and Johns then he was capable of targeting single females and we know he shot Stine so he could target single guys too. Most also had him pegged as a gunman who ambushed his victims, yet LB proves that he did the opposite by chatting to his victims for 15 minutes, tieing them up and stabbing them in the back with a huge knife. If he hadn’t written on the car door or accidentally left a survivor who saw a crosshair on his stupid costume then we’d have been none the wiser.

What we have to remember is that if Zodiac hadn’t sent in a letter bragging about Stine, we would never have attributed Stine’s murder to him. Up until then we had Z down as a couple killer who targeted lonely retreats around Vallejo/Napa – so the fact that a single taxi driver in San Francisco turns up shot with his wallet stolen and the perp fleeing on foot would never register as a Z murder and most investigators would have scoffed at the idea of Z as the killer in that case.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:53 pm

Most of these murders and disappearances of lone women involved a home invasion element and a very hands-on means of murder, sometimes including sexual assault. Zodiac wasn’t about the sex, was an outdoors kind of guy, and, Berryessa aside, usually opted for something less than up-close-and-personal. I’d be more inclined to agree if you suggested those women were early victims of Ted Bundy.

Why would it not be ok to write it on the car door (for whatever reason) at the end of September, but it’s ok a month later to include it?

It’s called laughably bad backpedaling. He never killed anyone in August.

I agree with you 100% Nacht.

I just don’t think Zodiac had it in for women more than men. Zodiac’s letters are not geared towards women. He speaks of killing lone people in the night. Someone who was focused on women, I think, we would see that in his letters…and I don’t see it.

I do not believe Zodiac killed Cheri Jo.

entropy, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:39 am

Why no "August" on the car door at Lake Berryessa? That’s an excellent question, Tahoe. Zodiac is far more specific in September, 1969, including specific dates but there’s no mention of August, is there? I tend to think this reinforces the notion that Z is blowing smoke about August victims.

One possible explanation might be that by November the Furlong & Snoozy case, which had been discussed as a possible Zodiac case in the media, remained unsolved and Z felt safer to implicitly claim responsibility (although vaguely enough that he wouldn’t be exposed as the liar that he was if it WAS eventually solved). Claiming this crime in November after Stine would allow him to save face for the promise of a "kill rampage" that weekend in August that never materialized. It would also serve to back up his claim the following day of taking more victims anonymously as well as divert attention away from Stine evidence, which seemed to be the entire purpose of the "Bus Bomb" letter the following day. I’d be curious to know if there were any newspaper articles about Furlong & Snoozy in the days prior to the two November letters.

I’m with Nacht about the likelihood of Z being responsible for any of the many killings of females mentioned as possible victims. Any of them are certainly possible but those types of killings unfortunately happen all of the time and don’t seem to fit Z’s established M.O. at the time. We can speculate endlessly who his 37 victims are but I’ve always believed that Z’s vague insinuations and taunts after Stine were vague for a reason (that he had nothing to back them up besides perhaps what he had read in the SF Chronicle).

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:31 am

By Rope…

In Zodiac’s Halloween card ("Your Secret Pal") of 27 October 1970, he implies that he has killed 14 people. He specifies this "collecting of slaves for paradice" as: "By Fire, By Gun, By Knife, By Rope."

Whether he had actually killed by all four methods, or whether that was simply his imagination/scheme is not stated.

Here is an unsolved case in Marin County, California just north of San Francisco. The victim was discovered 3 September 1969, but his death was estimated as 31 July 1969. Obviously, his death could have occurred any time in August as well. He remains unidenified – a John Doe – to this day. It is not known if he committed suicide or if he was murdered. He was fully clothed and found in a remote area.

Could this be an August 69 victim of Zodiac, killed "by rope"?

————————-

Unidentified White Male

The victim was discovered on September 3, 1969 in Marin County, California
Estimated Date of Death: July 31, 1969
Found hanging from a tree

Vital Statistics

Estimated age: 21 – 38 years old
Clothing: Blue shirt; gold sweater; Levis; tan lace boots. Gold rim sunglasses.

Case History
The victim was found hanging from a tree in Marin County, California on September 3, 1969.

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:55 am

Dates of letters with "scores"…

Zodiac began keeping a running score in his letters to police with his 9 November 1969 when he claimed 7 killed.

on 27 December 69, Zodiac claimed 8 kills.

On 19 April 1970, He claimed 10 kills.

On 26 June 1970, he claimed 12 kills. This is the letter in which he claims to have killed a man in a parked car with a .38.

On 24 July 70, he hints at Kathleen Johns’ abduction. ("gave an interesting ride")

On 24 July 70 he claims 13 kills.

on 5 October 70, the score is still 13 kills.

On 27 October 1970, He sends his Halloween card and seems to be claiming 14 kills.

On 15 March 1971, He claims 17+. This is after Paul Avery wrote about Zodiac’s possible connection to the murder of Cherri Jo Bates in Riverside, CA. Zodiac states, "I do have to give them credit for stumbling across my Riverside activities. … There are more." Did he actually kill anyone between 27 October 70 and 15 March 1970 or if he was claiming victims taken years before.

After a long silence, Zodiac writes again on 30 January 1974 claiming 37 kills.

bayarea60s, Subject: Richard Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:48 am

Thanks for these posts….I recall when they found this guy….I wasn’t aware they never ID’d him…"They will never be missed", also comes to mind….
Yes, this could very well be an August killing….

Z was at least consistent in that his numbers always went up….

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:45 pm

Filling in the blanks…

When one looks at the claims made by Zodiac in his correspondance, assuming that he is being accurate in his "scores", it is hard to correlate possible victims with the time frames.

One certainly has to go outside the Appendix list compiled by Robert Graysmith to find possible victims that Zodiac seems to claim. For instance, Zodiac claims to have killed two victims between his 19 April 70 letter and his 26 June 70 letter, one of them the guy sitting in the car. Yet Graysmith lists no murder victims between those dates in his Appendix list.

Again, between 26 June and 24 July 1970, he claims another murder, but there is no potential victim on the list for that time frame.

There are other problems with the Appendix list, such as misspellings, lack of information, and more significantly some only appear on the list but not in the text of his book.

Going back to basics on this and looking at Zodiac’s demonstrated MO and his "score" claims, I think he could be ruled out of many of the murders in the appendix.

He seems to be someone who kills outdoors in remote areas and the crime usually involves a motor vehicle. The generally accepted "known" murders atributed to him do not seem to involve sex motives and he kills both men and women, individually or as couples. I would suggest looking into some of the unsolved cases across the country that fit those basic parameters. But certainly, anything in the San Francisco Bay area would stand out.

Handguns and knives would likely have been used, but he also stated that he would or did kill "by fire and by rope".

I see a possible link between the Marin County John Doe (found hanging in a tree) and the Lompoc Jane Doe found further south with numerous stab wounds. Note that police in those two separate jurisdictions estimated each death near 31 July 1969. Could they have been together as a couple and murdered on 1 or 2 August (Friday or Saturday)?

bayarea60s, Subject: Z’s Scoresheet Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:32 am

Richard….

I’ve often wondered if Z’s numbers in the beginning of his Z timeframe was just solely basing on those cases he claimed as Z. then later he added all past homicides in his scorekeeping. Either that or Z was just a liar, which he claimed he wouldn’t take credit for someone elses work), but then if he’s a liar, that wouldn’t matter much. Or he went on the road and killed folks all over the place. Or he found a source of people who truly would never be missed, or found.

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:26 am

Richard….

I’ve often wondered if Z’s numbers in the beginning of his Z timeframe was just solely basing on those cases he claimed as Z. then later he added all past homicides in his scorekeeping. Either that or Z was just a liar, which he claimed he wouldn’t take credit for someone elses work), but then if he’s a liar, that wouldn’t matter much. Or he went on the road and killed folks all over the place. Or he found a source of people who truly would never be missed, or found.

I agree with you about Zodiac’s "scorekeeping" starting with the December 1968 double murder of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen.

Zodiac, in fact, later on in his correspondence "admits" to his "Riverside activities" and suddenly ups his score from 14 (28 October 70) to 17 plus (15 March 71). This is a jump of four or more victims. Graysmith’s appendix list has only two "possible victims" for that interim time frame, and another man was convicted of one of those murders. So, it would appear that he upped his score by adding in previous kills.

Another reason for considering Zodiac’s score as starting with his assumption of theZodiac persona/identity is that his announced killings begin with three double murders/attempted murders. Serial Killers very rarely begin their killings with double or multiple murders. They usually work up to them. With the start of the Zodiac persona, he begins with three doubles. It is probable and likely that he had started earlier with attacks and possible murders on single victims.

It is also possible that he began before December 1968 with victims that he knew or might be connected to, and therefor wanted to keep those secret, so as not to be discovered by police linking those murders to his "Zodiac" killings.

Another reason for not including some victims in his "count" might be that they were children. Often a serial killer will admit to killing adults, but not children.

Also, the tempo of any Serial Killer’s murders tends to pick up as they progress – that is the timeframe between killings might start out with one every two months, then every month, and then progress to weekly – and to multiple attacks on the same day.

While it is possible and very likely that Zodiac was a Liar, it would seem that he actually wanted police and the people of San Francisco (his audience) to believe him. For this reason, it would make more sense to leave victims where they could be found and seen, rather than to simply kill someone who would "never be missed" (as he stated in one of his letters) and have them Actually missed by police.

The fact that he tended often to choose remote places for his attacks, made it possible that a victim here or there might have not been discovered for a long period of time. A victim might later have been found but unidentified or may be still "missing".

Could this have been the actual reason that he stated in his 9 November 1969 letter that he would change his "way of collecting slaves" by making his killings look "like routine robberies, killings of anger & a few fake accidents, etc."? For him, this was a win-win situation. As much as he wanted to keep an accurate "score", he did not want to have to keep pointing out his exact work and possibly be identified through association with a particular victim or murder scene. And it gave him the feeling that he was "in control of all things". He could now be suspected of any kind of evil without actually having to do anything other than brag about it in his letters.

I think that police may have gotten close to identifying him just prior to November 1969, and that was at least one reason for him stating police were lying about him and that he would "no longer announce".

soze, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:45 pm

Handguns and knives would likely have been used, but he also stated that he would or did kill "by fire and by rope".

I see a possible link between the Marin County John Doe (found hanging in a tree) and the Lompoc Jane Doe found further south with numerous stab wounds. Note that police in those two separate jurisdictions estimated each death near 31 July 1969. Could they have been together as a couple and murdered on 1 or 2 August (Friday or Saturday)?

I contacted an officer in charge concerning the Marin County John Doe some months back, possibly October/November last year (will need to check for certainty on date). Was told that this particular John Doe was a definate suicide, although, they claim that the suicide note was unreadable.

Soze

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:49 pm

[quote="soze…I contacted an officer in charge concerning the Marin County John Doe some months back, possibly October/November last year (will need to check for certainty on date). Was told that this particular John Doe was a definate suicide, although, they claim that the suicide note was unreadable.

Soze

Did they give you any specifics regarding why they felt it was a suicide?

I would think that if it was a murder, he would have had other injuries and possibly ligature marks on his wrists.

A note could have been written by anyone. Since they don’t know who this guy is, there is no way to prove that he wrote the note.

soze, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:04 pm

[quote="soze…I contacted an officer in charge concerning the Marin County John Doe some months back, possibly October/November last year (will need to check for certainty on date). Was told that this particular John Doe was a definate suicide, although, they claim that the suicide note was unreadable.

Soze

Did they give you any specifics regarding why they felt it was a suicide?

I would think that if it was a murder, he would have had other injuries and possibly ligature marks on his wrists.

A note could have been written by anyone. Since they don’t know who this guy is, there is no way to prove that he wrote the note.

When I contacted the officer, I had been working on a theory concerning "by fire, by gun, by knife, by rope" and this John Doe seemed to fit. So when I wrote, I asked "where" in Marin county the body was found and if there was any possibility the John Doe was "not" a suicide. The following was what was stated to me via email:

"This case was investigated in 1969. The body was on Mt. Tamalpias, the suicide note was not readable, but investigators did conclude it was a suicide."

I did have the same concerns/questions you stated above but, mainly due to, the theory I was working on. While I waited for a response, I began working on the trail I am on now and never commented further than a thank you. I thought, if ever I went back to the theory, I would contact them again.

If you want the name and email of the officer send me a message and I will give it to you.

Soze

soze, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:12 pm

OOPS.

Read the bottom of the email and cant divulge the name. If you have questions, let me know and I will contact him.

Very sorry.

Soze

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:41 pm

Sooze,

Thanks for the information. I wouldn’t write off the possibility of this being a murder rather than a suicide. It could have been either.

Isn’t it sad and perhgaps ironic that the note was unreadable? Assuming it was a suicide, here you have a guy who takes his own life and wants someone to know why. But to this day nobody even knows who he was.

bayarea60s, Subject: Richard Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:44 pm

I thought the same thing. Someone died out there, no matter how it happened, and the guy never was missed?

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:15 pm

I thought the same thing. Someone died out there, no matter how it happened, and the guy never was missed?

This sort of thing DOES happen. There are a number of similar cases in the Doenetwork files where an apparent suicice victim remains unidentified for many years.

HOWEVER, in this case, such a rare occurance (an unidentified suicde victim) coincides with the Zodiac claim of having killed in August, and a later claim or threat to kill "by rope". The letter found at the scene and thought by police to be a suicide note could have been a Zodiac letter. After all, letters was something he was into.

And the location certainly sounds like a Zodiac remote setting. It is in the San Francisco Bay area, but a different jurisdiction than all his other generally accepted kills.

Killing "By Rope" is a rather unusual terminology, but wouldn’t it follow that he was saying that he had hanged (or would hang) someone?

Consider also the coincidence of the Jane Doe killed by numerous stab wounds in Lompoc, California. Both her death and that of the Marin County John Doe were estimated to have taken place 31 July 1969. Both have remained unidentified to this day. The only thing certain in each case is that they were not likely from the place they were found.

If LE was off by one or two days in each case, it would mean either Friday 1 August or Saturday 2 August 1969. Note that Zodiac’s kill days in all his "known" murders were Friday or Saturday. This would also be about the same moon phase as that of the Ferrin/Mageau attack, and only a month later.

soze, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:02 pm

I tried to explain this on Zodiackiller.com some time last year without success (I am not the best at explaining things). Since realizing that the Exorcist letter symbols were locations on a map and, knowing that the Zodiac offered up a Phillips 66 Map to taunt, I started looking at other things he would say and do with maps in mind. Where I went with the "by fire, by gun, by knife, by rope" was with each statement representing a geographical area with a point of origin unknown. At some point, I focused on Vacaville and Fairfield being the point of origin. I do know that I ultimately chose Fairfield but can’t remember why. I believe it had something to do with the Phillips 66 map and Mt. Diablo. Possibly due to the angles seen done by Mike??? I would have to go back and look through everything to see. Anyway, the idea and what brought me to the John Doe in Marin county was, that the "by fire" would be a location east of Fairfield, "by gun" south, "by knife" north and the "by rope" west. Not directly due, but, within that vicinity. Just as I thought the John Doe in Marin could be a match (not completely sold on the idea it was a suicide due to the unreadable note and the fact that he hung himself with sunglasses on. Just cant understand that.), there was a "by fire" near Sacramento that caught my eye at one time. I believe it was Clarksville???? Don’t remember all of the specifics but was something along the lines of woman, burned in building, August, possible suspect arrested and then let go due to lack of evidence. Would be interested in knowing more if someone can pull something up on it.

Doe network breaks my heart. So many nameless and, often times, faceless victims. Those victims and their families deserve so much more. Two particular cases that I have never been able to forget are: Case File 235UFFL and Case File 255UFOK. I see them being connected in a mother/daughter way with unknown Father/father figure as suspect.

Rambling Soze

bayarea60s, Subject: Soze Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:47 am

I agree with everything you stated. And I felt your heart to the victims of these cases. I try and remind myself constantly that this is all about the victims, nothing else. We’re their voice, and one’s who are saying what happened to you is so unjust, and while we maybe didn’t know you, we haven’t forgotten about you. Maybe LE has, they have their current jobs to do, but these victims need some place to be remembered, and maybe through this site and sites like it, just maybe one cold case can be solved and bring relief to the memory of the victim’s, their families and friends.

The Map…From the time when Z released his map I recall thinking this is a thinking person, a planner, a stalker. this wasn’t somebody just going out on a whim or a feeling. This man had a plan, he had planned a place and time to carry out his plan, how he would do it, and what he was looking for. And when those things came together for him, he struck. But over time I’ve come to realize that Z could do this anywhere, at anytime. Any of us can look at a map of an area that we’re unfamiliar with and quickly become very familiar with an area. And with a little driving around become intimately familiar. So I think I’ve been very guilty of trying to always place Z in that geographical area. You know did he work there, live there, have relatives/friends there? Maybe that is important, but maybe for Z, he didn’t need any of that.

Thanks again for the message, I will look up those cases you brought up.

soze, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:34 pm

I agree with everything you stated. And I felt your heart to the victims of these cases. I try and remind myself constantly that this is all about the victims, nothing else. We’re their voice, and one’s who are saying what happened to you is so unjust, and while we maybe didn’t know you, we haven’t forgotten about you. Maybe LE has, they have their current jobs to do, but these victims need some place to be remembered, and maybe through this site and sites like it, just maybe one cold case can be solved and bring relief to the memory of the victim’s, their families and friends.

Well, that’s where I see the Doenetwork having a fault. Don’t get me wrong. It’s great that they post what they do. But you need an avenue such as this site to voice thoughts, leads, etc. etc. A place where there are people working together for a common goal. It just absolutely pains me to think that there is someone laying there without a name. No one to claim them. Didn’t their life mean something? I am sorry. I am very emotional when it comes to that site.

The Map…From the time when Z released his map I recall thinking this is a thinking person, a planner, a stalker. this wasn’t somebody just going out on a whim or a feeling. This man had a plan, he had planned a place and time to carry out his plan, how he would do it, and what he was looking for. And when those things came together for him, he struck. But over time I’ve come to realize that Z could do this anywhere, at anytime. Any of us can look at a map of an area that we’re unfamiliar with and quickly become very familiar with an area. And with a little driving around become intimately familiar. So I think I’ve been very guilty of trying to always place Z in that geographical area. You know did he work there, live there, have relatives/friends there? Maybe that is important, but maybe for Z, he didn’t need any of that.

With all due respect, I think your first avenue highlighted in bold was spot on but that you are reducing him when you say that he could do this anywhere, at anytime and didnt need a reason to be where he was. I wonder why the change of heart?

Thanks again for the message, I will look up those cases you brought up.

Let me know what you think. I would be interested to learn your thoughts.

Soze

bayarea60s, Subject: Soze… Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:42 pm

Soze Stated….

"With all due respect, I think your first avenue highlighted in bold was spot on but that you are reducing him when you say that he could do this anywhere, at anytime and didnt need a reason to be where he was. I wonder why the change of heart?"

No change of heart. He’s still planning, stalking out an area, buying his map, doing his homework, but it wouldn’t need to be an area that he’s geographically committed to; like living there, having relatives in area (a place to stay), working in area. I never said he wouldn’t have a reason to be where he was. His reason would be solely to kill someone, not because he was personally committed to the area. Just another of the 1,000 thought I’ve had over the years. That’s what always struck me about the map.

I think he was a very purposeful killer, but if an opportunity came along, and he was in the mood, John’s perhaps comes to mind, he wouldn’t pass up on the opportunity.

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:02 am

… He’s still planning, stalking out an area, buying his map, doing his homework, but it wouldn’t need to be an area that he’s geographically committed to; like living there, having relatives in area (a place to stay), working in area. I never said he wouldn’t have a reason to be where he was. His reason would be solely to kill someone, not because he was personally committed to the area. Just another of the 1,000 thought I’ve had over the years. That’s what always struck me about the map.

I think he was a very purposeful killer, but if an opportunity came along, and he was in the mood, John’s perhaps comes to mind, he wouldn’t pass up on the opportunity.

Your comments make sense to me regarding Zodiac and his choice of locations and victims. While some killers might tend to kill any time and any place, Zodiac seems to be very methodical in his choices. He might have a particular type of victim(s) in mind, but his choice of locations seems to be more important. Studying maps and then scouting the location was probably part of his style and routine. Choosing his weapons, costume, vehicle, method of murder, etc were all part of his intricate planning. All this goes to his belief that he was "in control of all things".

His victims may have been people that he knew, but more likely, they were just innocent people who just happened to venture into his killing zone or hunting area during his chosen time. They were just objects to him and he did not refer to them by name in his letters, but rather by date or by location.

I agree that he may not have been connected to his kill areas by residence, work, relatives, etc. He could go just about anywhere in the area or the country. BUT, I believe that if he killed elsewhere, he would have gone through the same careful selection and planning of the new site and method of killing prior to any attacks.

To a normal person, Zodiac’s murders and his letters might seem illogical or senseless. But to Zodiac’s crazed immagination, they made perfect sense. He did have a logic system but one of his own choosing/ invention. His selection of time, place, method, costume, etc all made sense to him.

Part of his purpose as Zodiac was to terrorize the San Francisco Bay area. He makes a number of references to this in his letters. Killing outside that area or in another state might not further that intended purpose. That is – it might not "count" as being part of "the game". An analogy might be that a "non-league" or "scrub" game doesn’t count in team standings for different sports. Or a hunter would not normally claim a deer he hits with his car, as part of his season bag limit. Taking the hunting analogy further, a hunter speaking of the number of deer he has killed, might only be referring to the number taken in a particular state, and would not necessarily include those taken in another state.

Zodiac seems to be specifically targeting the SF Bay area in his Zodiac persona. He may very well have killed elsewhere earlier and later. His score keeping seems to start out pretty precisely oriented to SF Bay, with a possible deviation to include earlier murders when he refers to his "Riverside activities" and states that there were more than Cheri Jo Bates. His final score claim of 37 (on 30 January 74) seems to come out of nowhere and could have included kills either before or after his Zodiac act. Or he could have been simply telling a big lie and using a specific number like the Nazis used to do in their propaganda. After all, if one does the math, Zodiac is claiming to have killed up to 20 more people between 15 March 71 and 30 Jan 74 (34 months).

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:57 pm

I don’t know…sometimes I think all the letters, codes, etc. Zodiac wrote was just a bunch of hoo-ha crap that was just all put out there to screw with the police.

I don’t think he was some freaked out, whacko—it was all a part of his game. Which was all BS. He wanted to kill people and get attention no doubt, but he was just a thug who murdered innocent people.

MAZZY, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:39 pm

I don’t know…sometimes I think all the letters, codes, etc. Zodiac wrote was just a bunch of hoo-ha crap that was just all put out there to screw with the police.

I don’t think he was some freaked out, whacko—it was all a part of his game. Which was all BS. He wanted to kill people and get attention no doubt, but he was just a thug who murdered innocent people.

I agree with you.

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:04 pm

Zodiac could have just been making it all up as he went along, but there is evidence that he did do some thoughtful planning before he killed. I do not mean that he was thoughtful or kind toward his victims, but rather that he seemed to go at things with some sort of plan hatched in his crazed imagination.

He was careful in some ways, but careless in others. Obviously he was never caught.

He definitely saw it all as a big game; the approach to victims, the killing, and later the notes and letters and codes to mess with the police.

His codes were his pride and joy and he loved proving to the world how smart he was and how he was in control.

bayarea60s, Subject: And the Fear Factor.. Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:50 am

Z loved invoking fear on the society he lived within. He also hated cops. I’ve always wondered why. He had to have good reason (at least in his mind) to distain police so much, make them look foolish and inept. Always reminded me of someone who had a very personal relationship with cops or a cop. Maybe his father was a cop.
Z was also a coward.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:02 am

I’ve always put it down to Zodiac having unpleasant run-ins with the police during a delinquent childhood, but the possibility of his very own father being a cop is one of the best theories I’ve ever seen. If the old man was abusive as well (a very likely possibility), it certainly would explain a lot of things. Mayhaps Zodiac picked up on anti-detection techniques from observing his dad, repugnant though doing so may have been.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:33 am

Some good points raised here.

There was a case in Canada a few years ago of a serial killer who murdered girls and called the police from a phonebooth to taunt them. I think he also desecrated one of the girl’s graves. Thankfully they managed to tape one of the phonecalls and someone (his mum I think) recognised his voice. Turned out that his dad was a cop and he couldn’t stand him.

Z definitely had some issues going on with authority and I’d put money on him either having an abusive father or an absent father from an early age. If his abusive father was a cop then that would explain a lot as would his father being absent and Z having his discipline handed out by LE instead.

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:38 am

As the Zodiac mystique and hype grew in the SF bay area, it is possible and likely that other nut cases tried to "get into the act". This could have meant that some murders linked to Zodiac may have been copycat crimes, but more likely there were letters and phone threats which came from individuals OTHER than the One True (albeit self appointed) Zodiac.

Phone calls immediately after some of the Zodiac-linked murders were made and were believed to have come from the killer. Except for the heavy breathing only calls, those which came in as voice messages were recalled as being very scripted, flat and expressionless, as if the caller was reading his message from something he had written in advance. In particular, during one emergency call, the operator tried to ask the location of the crime and the caller continued talking, raising his voice over the operator’s interruption, until he had completed his message.

The taunting of police by Zodiac was not only confined to his letters and coded messages (and by extension through the newspapers). Phone calls were just as carefully scripted in some instances. A deviation from these carefully scripted and brief phone calls was Zodiac’s conversation with the housekeeper of Melvin Belli, in which he seemed to connect with her in some way. While anyone could have called and spoken with the housekeeper, there was also a Christmas card linked to Zodiac mailled around that same time to Melvin Belli, which would tend to confirm that it was also he who made the phone call.

A theme which runs through Zodiac’s letters is his disdain and contempt for the police. It does seem deep rooted and certainly had some reason in his mind. A possibility could be that he was closely associated with a police officer whom he hated personally, or it could be that he may have had frequent run-ins (or a particularly traumatic one) with police in his youth.

It may also be that he perceived police as having failed him; such as failed to prevent abuse, failed to catch someone who had wronged him or his family, or on some occasion were late or nonresponsive to his call for help.

It may also be that he at one time aspired to becoming a police officer and was turned down. Could he have actually been a police officer or cadet who was fired? Some of his attacks could be tied to this theme. For instance, in his attacks of December 68 and July 69, he approached young couples with a light and pistol, in the manner of police. He dressed in a sort of uniform/costume at Lake Berryessa, and wore a holstered pistol. He offered roadside assistance after pulling Ms Johns over on a highway, and was dressed in dark blue or black. Was he using police tactics to mock the police, or did he actually want to be a police officer?

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:25 am

It may also be that he at one time aspired to becoming a police officer and was turned down. Could he have actually been a police officer or cadet who was fired? Some of his attacks could be tied to this theme. For instance, in his attacks of December 68 and July 69, he approached young couples with a light and pistol, in the manner of police. He dressed in a sort of uniform/costume at Lake Berryessa, and wore a holstered pistol. He offered roadside assistance after pulling Ms Johns over on a highway, and was dressed in dark blue or black. Was he using police tactics to mock the police, or did he actually want to be a police officer?

People love to bring this theory up. I think the ‘wannabe soldier’ possibility is far more likely than the ‘wannabe cop’, to be honest.

bayarea60s, Subject: 68-70 & Cops Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:08 pm

We have to remember too the times we were in. Cops were not respected too much in the Bay Area, and perhaps even across the nation, especially by the younger group. They were called pigs. We had the cops trying to enforce law against many anti-war protestors and there were many conflicts, many minor drug busts, thus the name calling. So I know in the Bay Area this was prevelant.
But Z seemed to take an inordinate amount of pleasure in taunting the cops. As far as a copy cat, I don’t know. We’re only talking about 4 cases. The first 2 would have to be thrown out as a copy cat events. LB if it was a copy cat he sure didn’t make much fodder about it. I think a co-py cat would have been immediately writing about his exploits. And we know Stine was Z. So I doubt there was a copy cat thing happening.

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:41 pm

By Copycats, I was referring more to crank phone calls and letters from persons other than Zodiac, either in his style or perhaps claiming to be Zodiac. This seems to be the case with the TV Show caller and some of the bomb scare phone calls.

You are right about there not being a lot that another killer could pick up on to copy off of any of Zodiac’s murders.

It is more likely that other murders and deaths occurred which were thought to be Zodiac crimes, whether intended as copycat killings, or not.

bayarea60s, Subject: AM San Francisco Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:14 am

I still recall the day when Z supposedly called in to Jim Dunbar’s show…I don’t know what their share rating for that show was in the Bay Area that day but it had to be huge. 10/22/69, it was my brother’s 23rd birthday….I’m sure many here can recall that show as well.
I also recall year’s later while Dunbar was on the air at KGO/Radio someone came by the street right outside of where Dunbar did the show and opened fire. They didn’t realize it was bullet proof glass. Saved Dunbar’s life.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:34 am

Some good points raised here.

There was a case in Canada a few years ago of a serial killer who murdered girls and called the police from a phonebooth to taunt them. I think he also desecrated one of the girl’s graves. Thankfully they managed to tape one of the phonecalls and someone (his mum I think) recognised his voice. Turned out that his dad was a cop and he couldn’t stand him.

Z definitely had some issues going on with authority and I’d put money on him either having an abusive father or an absent father from an early age. If his abusive father was a cop then that would explain a lot as would his father being absent and Z having his discipline handed out by LE instead.

You and BayArea60’s make me think of Les Lundblad Jr. The son of a cop…ended up murdering his wife…in CLAYTON, CA.

***

The case you mention above…the guy was basically copying Zodiac. Or at least the case. He wrote on that grave "you are not the first and will not be the last". Yes it was his mother who I.D’s his voice.

bayarea60s, Subject: T27 Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:37 am

I hadn’t realized Lundblad’s son had done that…

Richard, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:48 am

Long breaks between letters…

There are two long breaks between Zodiac’s letters. The first one is almost three years long and occurred between his 22 March 1971 "Peek throught the Pines" postcard and his 29 January 1974 "Exorcist" letter. At that time, he claims a score of 37 kills.

In 1974, he writes a total of three letters; in January, May, and July. Then there is another long break (almost 4 years) with no verified correspondence until his final letter of 24 April 1978, when he states "I am back with you." With his final letter, he has a score which says "guess".

Where was he and what was he doing in those interim breaks between letters? The 1971 to 74 break would seem to indicate that he was still in the area killing people because of the increased "score". Was he still in the SF bay area, or had he moved and continued his murders elsewhere? If so, this would have been a deviation from his SF Bay Zodiac identity. Or, had he been incarcerated and was now just making a false claim of having killed some 20 persons in the interim?

The 1978 letter stating "I am back…" would indicate that he had been out of the area, or out of action for a while.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:24 am

Personally I don’t believe the 1978 letter was a genuine Z letter. I’m sure SFPD / FBI felt this too.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:31 am

Morrill felt the April 78 letter was likely real. Shimoda and SFPD thought it was fake, and most independent experts and researchers agree with them that it is fake, and traced. Yet FBI serial killer profiler treats the April 78 letter as real in his book "The Cases That Haunt Us", in his chapter on Zodiac. I think it is probably fake as the evidence of tracing is strong, but like almost everything else in this case, I suppose it can be debated, and not everyone will agree.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:12 pm

Mike Kelleher is on the record as trusting in its authenticity, which frankly leaves me very surprised.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:28 pm

I hadn’t realized Lundblad’s son had done that…

He shot her 4 times. The gun was never found. He said he left her alive that morning while he left to Reno to get money owned to him. He turned himself in..was easily convicted.

I will find the story and create a new thread.

bayarea60s, Subject: T27 Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:08 pm

So sad that so many men in our society have lost the concept of just walking away

, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 12:41 am

Wasn’t the October ‘kill’ supposed to be Paul Stine?

I still cannot understand why any of these disappearances and murders of lone women are regarded as possible Zodiac crimes.

Zodiac sent his "Dripping Pen" card on 8 November 1969. After his crosshair mark inside the card, he wrote: "Des, July, Aug, Sept, Oct = 7.

In his 9 November 1969 letter, he states: "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people…."

It would seem from his previous letters that he had already claimed Betty Lou and David killed in December 68, Darlene killed in July, Cecilia Shepherd killed in September, and Paul Stine killed October 11. He does not refer to Mageau or to Hartnell in his "score" because he specifically is referring to having killed 7 people, and those two survived his attacks.

This, then, is five of the seven – so there are two others between Dec 68 and Oct 69. At least one of them (if not both) would have been in August 69, since he lists Aug in his card. Note that he does not state specifically how many or who he killed in either of these two November letters.

Assuming that Zodiac is being truthful, and at least referring to actual murder victims (whether or not he killed them) then one of those two unaccounted for victims could have been killed in August and another could have been killed in one of the other months listed. However, the possibility of Zodiac referring to/claiming the murders of Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Gay Furlong (both 13) in August 69 would seem a more logical conclusion. But keeping an open mind, the other scenario could be just as possible.

Regarding Zodiac killing lone women, I guess it would depend on how you view his patterns. He certainly claimed the abduction of Kathleen Johns. Although she had her baby with her, he did not know that until she got into the car with him – so he had thought she was alone. And Paul Stine was a "lone kill" – probably the most likely one that could actually be tied to Zodiac.

What strikes me as very creepy and nervy is that Z took the time to tear or cut off a piece of Stine’s shirt. This would seem to indicate meticulous pre-meditation to the extent of having something to prove himself guilty and send the pieces in the two letters that followed. I wondered what kind of insane person would take the time to do that, considering that this murder was different in that in was committed right in the city with lots of potential witnesses around in the apts. and by gunshot (not out in the isolated areas as were the others). Does anyone know if he tore the shirt or cut it with scissors? I guess he could have also used the knife but the pieces looked pretty evenly cut and it just seems this would have taken an extraordinary amount of sheer gall and extra time.

Then, when I saw the picture of Stine’s brother, the coloring and other things matched. Was the brother cleared by LE? It seems that a brother may have been familiar with Stine’s route and would feel more comfortable in taking a piece of the shirt….moreso than a complete stranger. Could the shirt have been a gift given to Paul by his brother for instance or have some other significance. Regardless, this murder stands out in several ways as being very different from the others imo.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 1:38 am

Then, when I saw the picture of Stine’s brother, the coloring and other things matched. Was the brother cleared by LE? It seems that a brother may have been familiar with Stine’s route and would feel more comfortable in taking a piece of the shirt….moreso than a complete stranger. Could the shirt have been a gift given to Paul by his brother for instance or have some other significance. Regardless, this murder stands out in several ways as being very different from the others imo.

lovethecar…you might want to talk about this in this thread:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … er-22-1969

(fyi–I discovered–thanks to an obit Tom Voigt posted, Joe Stine lived in Vallejo in late ’68. We are not saying Joe was involved in the killing, but some found it darn interesting he lived there and no one ever knew)

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 2:24 am

What strikes me as very creepy and nervy is that Z took the time to tear or cut off a piece of Stine’s shirt. This would seem to indicate meticulous pre-meditation to the extent of having something to prove himself guilty and send the pieces in the two letters that followed. I wondered what kind of insane person would take the time to do that, considering that this murder was different in that in was committed right in the city with lots of potential witnesses around in the apts. and by gunshot (not out in the isolated areas as were the others). Does anyone know if he tore the shirt or cut it with scissors? I guess he could have also used the knife but the pieces looked pretty evenly cut and it just seems this would have taken an extraordinary amount of sheer gall and extra time.

Apparently, he tore the thing. Neatest tearing of cloth I’ve ever seen. I don’t know about pre-mediation, though. He might have just wanted something to wipe his fingerprints off with, and only thought of sending swatches in the mail later. But that, of course, doesn’t really explain the neatness of the tears.

All in all, Zodiac seemed almost abnormally calm at Presidio Heights. Not only does he take his time wiping down the cab, he calmly strolls away, not even displaying any hint of panic when Fouke and Zelms roll up in their car. You’d think he’d at least freak at the sight of a police vehicle, but no. I can’t help but wonder if he had been on something to calm his nerves. I’m unfamiliar with weed; does smoking it cause such an effect?

Then, when I saw the picture of Stine’s brother, the coloring and other things matched. Was the brother cleared by LE? It seems that a brother may have been familiar with Stine’s route and would feel more comfortable in taking a piece of the shirt….moreso than a complete stranger. Could the shirt have been a gift given to Paul by his brother for instance or have some other significance. Regardless, this murder stands out in several ways as being very different from the others imo.

I think the suggestion that Joe Stine was Zodiac is grotesque. But if you want to poke around that angle, go right ahead.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 2:45 am

Nacht—Weed wouldn’t calm nerves. If anything–paranoia!

I don’t think there is anything wrong with considering the possibility of a person being involved in the killing of a sibling. Happens all the time. And I still don’t believe anyone is saying Joe WAS the Zodiac. But there are things that I question, and those things have been discussed in the link above.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 3:16 am

And here I was thinking the stuff mellows you.

If you consider the possibility that Joe was involved in his brother’s murder, the implication is that you’re considering the possibility that he was Zodiac. There’s no two ways about it.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 7:25 am

Then, when I saw the picture of Stine’s brother, the coloring and other things matched. Was the brother cleared by LE? It seems that a brother may have been familiar with Stine’s route and would feel more comfortable in taking a piece of the shirt….moreso than a complete stranger. Could the shirt have been a gift given to Paul by his brother for instance or have some other significance. Regardless, this murder stands out in several ways as being very different from the others imo.

lovethecar…you might want to talk about this in this thread:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … er-22-1969

(fyi–I discovered–thanks to an obit Tom Voigt posted, Joe Stine lived in Vallejo in late ’68. We are not saying Joe was involved in the killing, but some found it darn interesting he lived there and no one ever knew)

Interesting thread, I forgot about. Thanks

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 7:45 am

Nacht—Weed wouldn’t calm nerves. If anything–paranoia!

I don’t think there is anything wrong with considering the possibility of a person being involved in the killing of a sibling. Happens all the time. And I still don’t believe anyone is saying Joe WAS the Zodiac. But there are things that I question, and those things have been discussed in the link above.

He may have had a shot of something perhaps.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 8:31 am

parking ticket no witness. Large American car maybe cadillac seen leaving area on Oak Street.w ite car.

morf13, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 9:00 am

parking ticket no witness. Large American car maybe cadillac seen leaving area on Oak Street.w ite car.

HUH? Are you referring to the car seen leaving the Radetich murder? Did I miss something?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 9:21 am

fast white car seen leaving general area may or may not be killeq.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 9:57 am

Was there a computer glich? Or did I just make a mistake? (Hey it happened ONCE, it could happen again.)

I would swear I was reading about the Radetich case and someone, maybe Morf, asked "if he was writing a ticket maybe there are witnesses".

So I said it was a parking ticket, no witnesses.

What thread was that in? :scratch:

tracers, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 4:06 pm

Is it the post on the previous page?

AK Wilks
Chief

Posts: 2300
Join date: 2010-03-04

Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Today at 5:31 am
parking ticket no witness. Large American car maybe cadillac seen leaving area on Oak Street.w ite car.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Thu May 26, 2011 4:39 pm

Yes I posted that, but I swear it was in response to a thread on Radetich, where someone (Morf?) said "since he was writing aticket there may be witnesses", as if it was a speeding ticket, so I said, no, it was a parking ticket no witnesses.

Either my computer had a glich or I did.

, Subject: Re: Zodiac and his letters… Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:06 pm

Personally I think he was busier than given the credit for….I think he killed many before David and Betty Lou, and didn’t ask for any credit, and many after Stine and told us he wouldn’t be seeking any credit. His non-communique after Stine, well he told us that’s what he would do. One of the problems LE has many times in catching serial’s is that many times serial’s change their MO. And I know I’ve discounted many a case based on geographics alone, like I’d know that Z wouldn’t travel 8-10 hours and kill someone in a totally different jurisdiction, in a totally different manner. I’ve looked at Z as what makes sense to me, and not what may have made sense to him, where he may have travelled to. I figure if Z committed crimes in so. Cal, then he had to live there. Reality is, who says so, me?
Z said he shot a man in a car with a .38. He never said it was Officer Raditech. In fact he tells us he didn’t kill that officer, but he doesn’t take away his original statement, that he shot a man with a .38 who was sitting in a car. So we look at all Bay Area/Ca. cases in that timeframe and don’t find any, so thus Z’s lying. What if he did this crime in Mont., or Idaho, Nev., or anywhere else. We assume he couldn’t have done the crimes anywhere outside of where we set his parameter. Z may have been smart enough to figure out that’s exactly what we and LE would do.

Excellent points and I totally agree with you. Z could easily have done something like kill someone in southern CA and drive to northern CA, dump the body, spend the night at a cheap motel and return the next day. Or, even if he didn’t want to do that, he could have really had "fun" with LE in Los Angeles County alone, due to it’s size. The Los Angeles County Sherriff’s Dept. has approximately 17 different stations in various cities such as El Monte, Covina, West Hollywood, etc. Then the LAPD covers a lot of the same territory or overlaps might be the better term. Of course the California Highway Patrol gets involved as we see with the high speed chases. Then there are the adjacent counties such as Ventura, Orange, Riverside so Z could easily pick up a victim and dispose of that person miles away but in a totally different city or county which would cause lots of confusion, especially back in those days.