Jem, Subject: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:27 am

Maybe some of you guys already know this but, looking around the Z boards, I’m not seeing anything posted, so ~

The 408 and 340 ciphers fit exactly into two standard-size pages ruled into half-inch squares. The 408 will use one page plus one inch from another page. The second page will then fit the 340 exactly.

This would be easy enough with a ruler, or perhaps Zodiac used quadrille paper. Common sizes for quadrille paper are 4, 5 and 10 squares per linear inch. There’s also engineering paper, which I THINK is sometimes ruled in half-inch squares.

Is this another Zo-inky-dink? Or did Z create the first draft of his ciphers at the same time? Or did he make the 340 later, using the spare 8.5 x 10 inch paper?

I see that Bentley has talked about the 17 columns over at ZKF, saying he heard it from Rand. Either of ya’ll notice the number of rows, too? Anyone have any thoughts about what this might mean, if anything?

~Jem

bentley, Subject: Re: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:04 am

Jem, never noticed, or heard mention of the row Zinky-dink

Tantalizing to think the 340 plain text could be a continuation of the 408, and the key or coding structure was changed with perhaps the unsolved last 18 characters of the 408 being part of the 340 key. Until it solved conclusively, unfortunately, we’ll never know.

entropy, Subject: Re: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:25 am

Really interesting observation there, Jem.

A 1/2 inch ruled piece of 8 1/2 X 11 graph paper yields a 17 X 22 grid or 374 spaces. Two pages= 748 spaces, which is the combined capacity of both our solved 408 cipher and unsolved 340 cipher.

It’s been postulated that the unsolved portion at the end of the 408 cipher might actually be the beginning of the 340 cipher. Could they have perhaps been created at the same time but the method changed at the halfway point (after the 374th symbol in the 408 cipher)? Could symbols 375 to 391 have something in common to both ciphers?

Just a thought…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:09 pm

Yes, very interesting observation. To my knowledge you are the first to notice it!

I think it means something, but I don’t know what. Maybe that both codes were designed at the same time…?

entropy, Subject: Re: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:08 am

Reposting this post from ZKfacts to elaborate on why I think this is a really fascinating observation by Jem. I reposted Jem’s ideas there because there are some really brilliant cipher folks there who might be able to expand on the idea. Morf has always been very generous with sharing information elsewhere so I hope it’s cool to let everyone in on this topic. My math regarding the transition point in the first post was sloppy, by the way. If the 408 actually transitioned to the 340, as the post suggests, it would be after symbol #390 in the 408 where the substitution method stops working.

A poster by the name of Jem at morf’s site posted this really interesting observation. Perhaps it’s already been discussed somewhere?

Jem observed that Zodiac’s 408 and 340 ciphers together would fit EXACTLY on two pages of standard sized 1/2" ruled quadrille paper. An 8 1/2 X 11 inch paper divided into 1/2" squares yields 17X22 or 374 separate squares. Two pages together: 374 X 2= 748. The two ciphers together? 748 symbols. I think the meticulous neatness of Z’s ciphers, as opposed to his slanting writing, speaks to the probable use of an aid like graph paper, which has certainly been discussed.

Is it possible that the two ciphers were actually written together on two pieces of graph paper since the 408, presuming that it was written first, would fill roughly the first inch of a second page? Just so happens that the 340 cipher would fill the rest of this second page.

I think there are a couple of interesting things to consider with this observation:

– It may explain why Z’s longer ciphers were 17 columns in length- it is what fit into the template he was using.

– It COULD indicate that the 340 cipher is merely a continuation of the 408 utilizing a different method, in which case, the message in the 340 could be rather similar to what was already written if they were created at the same time.

– It COULD indicate that Z may have actually created a "390 cipher" and a "358 cipher" or at least the first message he decided to send ended at the 390th symbol and the next began at symbol 391. The final 18 undecoded symbols in the 408 would then represent the beginning of our unsolved "340 cipher" but Z simply decided to include the last space and an additional line when sending the 408, knowing that it would not be fully solved even if someone was able to figure it out the message.

Thoughts? I think it would be an interesting project to actually put these two ciphers together in a 17X44 matrix beginning with the 408 and see if anything stands out.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:12 am

morf13, Subject: Re: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:51 am

Interesting theory and thoughts

onewhoknows, Subject: Re: 340 + 408 = 17 columns x (20 + 24 = 44) rows   Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:59 am

Very good observation. All the symbols appear to be written at the same time.
He starts so much with, "This is the Zodiac speaking…" has anyone tried to solve
starting with that line? 43 years later, bit by bit, the circle tightens, around him.