rand, Subject: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:25 am

ALL I DID WAS CUT AND PASTE. I USED THE SAME METHOD AS MY SOLUTION TO THE MY NAME IS CIPHER: AKA MARY’S MONOTONE (see thread). It says:

I’m the one who robbed and killed Paul the fucking jewbag. To prove to you I’m the Zodiac and not faking Zodiac, I klipped one tab of the taxi-cab driver’s bloody top piece. I enjoyed talking to one officer at the corner of Maple St., but…

ADD TO THIS: BACKWARD K = E

Here’s another way to look at what I did with the first 7 lines. Just put the 2 UNUSED backward Ks (that are leftover in the version below in the place of the missing E’s in KILLED and PIECE. (Caresut did this for me before I figured out what the backwards K was; thanks Caresut!!). The trick and the reason this version looks somewhat different from the top one is that Z put characters upside down and on their side. So the backwards J is actually a 1 when you turn it upside down. Z is actually an N on its side; 9 is an upside down b; backward L is an upside down r, etc.

, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:44 pm

Rand’s solution for the first 7 lines of the 340.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:57 pm

Thanks for the hard work, Caresut. :cheers: Here’s the next part:

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:11 pm

Rand’s solution for the first 7 lines of the 340.

Am i missing something? It seems that the first lines of the 340 are not the symbols as they appear in Rand’s solution? The Zodiac 340 starts off with 3 symbols that look like the word HER. So does that mean they were moved around or altered by Rand?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:24 pm

I think he is moving, mixing and matching Morf.

He is moving them into a new order, and as there are enough letters available, you can pretty much create any message you wish.

It is an interesting and creative idea, but the code aspect does not match what Z did before or after, and the crude, obscene and anti-semitic language matches nothing in Zodiac.

BTW, was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:40 pm

I think he is moving, mixing and matching Morf.

He is moving them into a new order, and as there are enough letters available, you can pretty much create any message you wish.

It is an interesting and creative idea, but the code aspect does not match what Z did before or after, and the crude, obscene and anti-semitic language matches nothing in Zodiac.

BTW, was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

Okay, so we can all mix & match, and make our own messages…I see. So you can make messages like "eat at joe’s. Try the veal" or "I am the Zodiac and I could go for a snickers bar".

If we have to change what Z wrote, we are defeating his message. He wanted people to know what he had to say. He got off on it. I dont do much with ciphers, but I cant understand why people choose to alter what Z wrote. There would be no way to tell if it was correct. If it was solved as Z wrote it, and it made a coherent message, then it would probably be a correct solution.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:50 pm

Exactly.

That is why on the My Name Is Code and the Map Code I use almost all Harden Key, which is the key we know Zodiac created and used, to solve these small codes. Otherwise, if you create your own key, you can have it say anything you want. I think it is implicit that in a small code Zodiac would mostly or entirely use the Key he created and which he knew the police knew – he might change it up a little to make it a challenge, but any approach to the small codes that isn’t 90% or more Harden Key I personally am very skeptical on.

The 340 is large enough that one could reasonably posit that Z might create a largely new key, but even then one must be very careful and you must be consistent. I use a solution largely found in the 1979 FBI file, which avoids the intentional or unintentional "confirmation bias" or selectivity that we are all naturally inclined towards.

I like to read other approaches to the codes, but I am not much impressed if they stray far from Harden Key, known code principles and internal consistency.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:52 pm

Was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

Rand, what if anything makes you think Zodiac was anti-Jewish?

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:00 pm

Was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

Rand, what if anything makes you think Zodiac was anti-Jewish?

I think he is referring to the letters written to Jack Ruby (who was jewish). On this, I do agree with Rand. Those letters look strikingly like the "Bates had to die letters", and they were sent from Southern CA.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:07 pm

If Zodiac was Troy Houghton, he was violently anti-Semitic. I can show you newspaper articles regarding Dennis Mower, TH’s right-hand guy and member of the Church of Jesus Christ Christian, that say that all Jews should be exterminated. And how about this:

COMPARE THE LETTERS FROM THESE ENVELOPES TO THE LA LETTERS TO JACK RUBY (BELOW)

HERE’S MY MOCKUP OF A BATES HAD TO DIE LETTER USING THE LETTERS FROM THESE LETTERS FROM LA TO RUBY

MY MOCKUP OF BATES LETTER USING CHARACTERS FROM THE LA LETTER TO RUBY

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:12 pm

I think he is moving, mixing and matching Morf.

He is moving them into a new order, and as there are enough letters available, you can pretty much create any message you wish.

It is an interesting and creative idea, but the code aspect does not match what Z did before or after, and the crude, obscene and anti-semitic language matches nothing in Zodiac.

BTW, was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

Okay, so we can all mix & match, and make our own messages…I see. So you can make messages like "eat at joe’s. Try the veal" or "I am the Zodiac and I could go for a snickers bar".

If we have to change what Z wrote, we are defeating his message. He wanted people to know what he had to say. He got off on it. I dont do much with ciphers, but I cant understand why people choose to alter what Z wrote. There would be no way to tell if it was correct. If it was solved as Z wrote it, and it made a coherent message, then it would probably be a correct solution.

OKAY, THANKS FOR THE PRAISE FOR MY HARD WORK.
SO YOU THINK YOU CAN MIX AND MATCH AND MAKE ANY MESSAGES YOU’D LIKE. OKAY. I’M SURE YOU CAN. GO AHEAD AND USE THE FIRST SEVEN LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. SHOW US HOW CONVINCING YOUR SOLUTION IS. WHAT WILL IT SAY: EAT AT JOE’S AND TRY THE VEAL? GREAT!!! SO WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE ZODIAC CASE. MY MIND BOGGLES AT THE NONSENSE THAT PEOPLE PUT FORTH BECAUSE THE 340 IS NOT A CIPHER. GO AHEAD AND BACK UP YOUR WORDS AND VIEW THAT YOU CAN GET ANYTHING FROM THE 340. ALL I’VE SUBSTITUTED IS BOXES FOR THE E’s (IT’S OBVIOUS THAT THERE AREN’T ENOUGH "E"s TO MAKE SENTENCES) AND A TRIANGLE FOR "THE." THE REST ARE JUST UPSIDE DOWN AND SIDEWAYS VERSIONS OF THE CHARACTERS.

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:12 pm

I am in agreement with Rand, the Ruby letters DO look alot like the Bates letters, right down to the same sized lined paper. Worth a closer look in my opinion.

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:15 pm

I think he is moving, mixing and matching Morf.

He is moving them into a new order, and as there are enough letters available, you can pretty much create any message you wish.

It is an interesting and creative idea, but the code aspect does not match what Z did before or after, and the crude, obscene and anti-semitic language matches nothing in Zodiac.

BTW, was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

Okay, so we can all mix & match, and make our own messages…I see. So you can make messages like "eat at joe’s. Try the veal" or "I am the Zodiac and I could go for a snickers bar".

If we have to change what Z wrote, we are defeating his message. He wanted people to know what he had to say. He got off on it. I dont do much with ciphers, but I cant understand why people choose to alter what Z wrote. There would be no way to tell if it was correct. If it was solved as Z wrote it, and it made a coherent message, then it would probably be a correct solution.

OKAY, THANKS FOR THE PRAISE FOR MY HARD WORK.
SO YOU THINK YOU CAN MIX AND MATCH AND MAKE ANY MESSAGES YOU’D LIKE. OKAY. I’M SURE YOU CAN. GO AHEAD AND USE THE FIRST SEVEN LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. SHOW US HOW CONVINCING YOUR SOLUTION IS. WHAT WILL IT SAY: EAT AT JOE’S AND TRY THE VEAL? GREAT!!! SO WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE ZODIAC CASE. MY MIND BOGGLES AT THE NONSENSE THAT PEOPLE PUT FORTH BECAUSE THE 340 IS NOT A CIPHER. GO AHEAD AND BACK UP YOUR WORDS AND VIEW THAT YOU CAN GET ANYTHING FROM THE 340. ALL I’VE SUBSTITUTED IS BOXES FOR THE E’s (IT’S OBVIOUS THAT THERE AREN’T ENOUGH "E"s TO MAKE SENTENCES) AND A TRIANGLE FOR "THE." THE REST ARE JUST UPSIDE DOWN AND SIDEWAYS VERSIONS OF THE CHARACTERS.

My point is that you are switching stuff around to match what you think it actually says, as opposed to trying to find a solution as it was laid out by Z. Again, I knw little about ciphers, and I dont get involved in them much. That being said, someone would knock my socks off with a coherent solution that came from the way it was laid out by Zodiac, and not by switching stuff around.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:22 pm

I think he is moving, mixing and matching Morf.

He is moving them into a new order, and as there are enough letters available, you can pretty much create any message you wish.

It is an interesting and creative idea, but the code aspect does not match what Z did before or after, and the crude, obscene and anti-semitic language matches nothing in Zodiac.

BTW, was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

I don’t agree that it doesn’t match what he did after the 408, which was solved in a day by school teachers). The reason I tried to solve the 340 this way is because of my "solution" to the MY NAME IS cipher. Zodiac introduces it: By the way have you cracked the last cipher I sent you? My Name Is–"
To me this is an obvious clue that the 340 is solved in the same way that the My Name Is (cipher) is solved. Zodiac is saying: this is how you crack the last cipher I sent you. And my solution to the My Name Is cipher is:

AKA M(ARIES) MONOTONE
AKA MARY’S MONOTONE

IS IT CORRECT? I DON’T KNOW. BUT IT ISN’T CORRECT TO SAY THAT MY 340 SOLUTION DOESN’T CONFORM TO ANYTHING ZODIAC DID. IT SIMPLY DOESN’T CONFORM TO THE 408, WHICH MAKES SENSE: WHY WOULD Z DO THAT AGAIN? IT TOOK SO LITTLE TIME TO CRACK, WHY ENCODE THE MESSAGE IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE FACT IS: NONE OF Z’S OTHER CIPHERS/CODES HAVE BEEN OFFICIALLY CRACKED.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:23 pm

"If Zodiac was Troy Houghton, he was violently anti-Semitic."

Yes, but can you show anything to say Zodiac was anti-semitic?

And was Stine a practicing Jew? And Zodiac would know this?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:26 pm

"MY MIND BOGGLES AT THE NONSENSE THAT PEOPLE PUT FORTH BECAUSE THE 340 IS NOT A CIPHER."

Recent FBI analysis says it IS a valid cipher.

I agree with that, and don’t buy for a minute it is nonsense, that Zodiac did all that for nothing.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:30 pm

Okay, so we can all mix & match, and make our own messages…I see. So you can make messages like "eat at joe’s. Try the veal" or "I am the Zodiac and I could go for a snickers bar".

If we have to change what Z wrote, we are defeating his message. He wanted people to know what he had to say. He got off on it. I dont do much with ciphers, but I cant understand why people choose to alter what Z wrote. There would be no way to tell if it was correct. If it was solved as Z wrote it, and it made a coherent message, then it would probably be a correct solution.

OKAY, THANKS FOR THE PRAISE FOR MY HARD WORK.
SO YOU THINK YOU CAN MIX AND MATCH AND MAKE ANY MESSAGES YOU’D LIKE. OKAY. I’M SURE YOU CAN. GO AHEAD AND USE THE FIRST SEVEN LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. SHOW US HOW CONVINCING YOUR SOLUTION IS. WHAT WILL IT SAY: EAT AT JOE’S AND TRY THE VEAL? GREAT!!! SO WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE ZODIAC CASE. MY MIND BOGGLES AT THE NONSENSE THAT PEOPLE PUT FORTH BECAUSE THE 340 IS NOT A CIPHER. GO AHEAD AND BACK UP YOUR WORDS AND VIEW THAT YOU CAN GET ANYTHING FROM THE 340. ALL I’VE SUBSTITUTED IS BOXES FOR THE E’s (IT’S OBVIOUS THAT THERE AREN’T ENOUGH "E"s TO MAKE SENTENCES) AND A TRIANGLE FOR "THE." THE REST ARE JUST UPSIDE DOWN AND SIDEWAYS VERSIONS OF THE CHARACTERS.

My point is that you are switching stuff around to match what you think it actually says, as opposed to trying to find a solution as it was laid out by Z. Again, I knw little about ciphers, and I dont get involved in them much. That being said, someone would knock my socks off with a coherent solution that came from the way it was laid out by Zodiac, and not by switching stuff around.

It would knock both of our socks off because it can’t be done. That said, why dismiss what I’ve done out of hand? You say you can get anything. try it. I essentially started from the top of the 340 and worked my way down, using the periods as guides to the lengths of the sentences and what goes in them (you don’t think i just cut up 340 characters, laid them on the table and starting pasting them together, do you?). Look at how the backwards Q becomes an apostrophe. Look at how the upside down characters, like J, become a numeral 1. I don’t know why this solution (and I’m quite certain it is the solution) doesn’t strike you as compelling. All I can say about your and AK’s reaction is: go figure? I’m sure that the cipher types, like Auth, are thinking the same way as you are: you can mix and match anything. Look closely at the logic of what I did and why. Look at what Z said about the My Name is Cipher/code. Look at the details of what I actually did here.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:33 pm

"MY MIND BOGGLES AT THE NONSENSE THAT PEOPLE PUT FORTH BECAUSE THE 340 IS NOT A CIPHER."

Recent FBI analysis says it IS a valid cipher.

I agree with that, and don’t buy for a minute it is nonsense, that Zodiac did all that for nothing.

Why do you say he did it all for nothing? What makes you think that it IS a valid cipher just because the FBI thinks it might be? Have they cracked it in 40 years. This is a classic case of letting the tail wag the dog. They say it must be a cipher or we think it’s a cipher, and so that’s how they’re going to solve the problem. You say: Z couldn’t have done all this for nothing. Why nothing? Because it’s solved as an anagram with clever letter play? It hasn’t been cracked the way I’ve done it in 40 some odd years. How is that "for nothing"? I don’t understand what you’re driving at.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:35 pm

"If Zodiac was Troy Houghton, he was violently anti-Semitic."

Yes, but can you show anything to say Zodiac was anti-semitic?

And was Stine a practicing Jew? And Zodiac would know this?

No. But Z (TH?) thought he was because Stein is a Jewish name.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:35 pm

"SO YOU THINK YOU CAN MIX AND MATCH AND MAKE ANY MESSAGES YOU’D LIKE. OKAY. I’M SURE YOU CAN. GO AHEAD AND USE THE FIRST SEVEN LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. SHOW US HOW CONVINCING YOUR SOLUTION IS. WHAT WILL IT SAY: EAT AT JOE’S AND TRY THE VEAL? GREAT!!! SO WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE ZODIAC CASE."

OK, I take your challenge, and I will use just the first line of the 340 AS IS NO CHANGES NO FLIPPING NO MOVING THEM AROUND and the last line and a half AS IS.

What I get is the name of a known killer, code expert, bomb maker and Zodiac suspect who was in the area for the key period of known Z crimes.

Or if you don’t like that, perhaps if you think Z was religious then on the first line you can get GOD. Or DOG. And on the last MANSO.

See the problem Rand?

I do appreciate a lot of your work Rand, I wouldn’t have offered to use my credibility with police authorities to vouch for you if I didn’t. I just don’t think much of this one particular effort of yours, thats all. It is creative, but I see nothing to indicate Z wanted us to use all the cipher symbols as letters, and a lot of what you do is very subjective (line and circle = I) and it generates enough letters that you could make different messages.

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:40 pm

Man you gusy can have these ciphers, they give me a headache. But until I see a valid and true solving of the cipher, and a coherent message, I will not be impressed.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:43 pm

I do in fact feel that based on work by Kite and using as a first stage solution the one found in the 1979 FBI file done by Graysmith, I have arrived at a largely correct solution to most of the 340. See it here:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … 0-t165.htm

The FBI has never responded, positively or negatively, to my work. But a state police code unit, which has cracked mafia, organized crime and prison gang codes, apparently thought enough of my work that they have requested the DNA of the man named in the code solutions.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:43 pm

Anyone can choose a few letters and get what they want. My challenge is: USE THE FIRST 7 LINES AND GET TWO SENTENCES THAT MAKE SENSE AND ARE GERMANE TO THE CASE. HECK, IF ONE LETTER DOESN’T WORK OR I CAN’T FIND A LETTER I NEED, THE WHOLE THING HAS TO BE DONE OVER AGAIN. IT’S OBVIOUS THAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITIES INVOLVED. PLEASE TAKE MY CHALLENGE AS I GAVE IT. USE THE FIRST 7 LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. YOU CAN USE WHATEVER SUBSTITUTE YOU WANT FOR THE BOXES BUT BE CONSISTENT.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:43 pm

Man you gusy can have these ciphers, they give me a headache. But until I see a valid and true solving of the cipher, and a coherent message, I will not be impressed.

What’s invalid or incoherent about my solution?

bentley, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:51 pm

I am in agreement with Rand, the Ruby letters DO look alot like the Bates letters, right down to the same sized lined paper. Worth a closer look in my opinion.

Not sure we can conclude that these are all on the same sized paper. In the yellow book Graysmith states the Bates had to Die letters were written on "common three-holed binder paper". What we see may have been cropped, as could the Ruby letter image, in which case binder paper is pretty common stuff.

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:56 pm

I am in agreement with Rand, the Ruby letters DO look alot like the Bates letters, right down to the same sized lined paper. Worth a closer look in my opinion.

Not sure we can conclude that these are all on the same sized paper. In the yellow book Graysmith states the Bates had to Die letters were written on "common three-holed binder paper". What we see may have been cropped, as could the Ruby letter image, in which case binder paper is pretty common stuff.

You are right. What I meant to say, was that it isnt on plain paper. It was lined (similar sz paper, unsure if brands match) but writing is close enough for me to hear more.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:06 am

Rand – There is nothing to suggest that Zodiac wanted us to take his cipher symbols and turn them all into letters. So I personally will not waste time playing with your concept. Others may.

Look, you came up with a creative proposed solution, and.. I don’t buy it. My opinion. Please submit your solution to the police and see if they will seek TH’s DNA or prints based on it. Maybe they will, I don’t know. But I doubt it because your solution does not use accpeted code principles and results in obscene and anti-semitic langauge that Zodiac never used. You have a lot better evidence regarding TH, IMO.

Here is what I think is the actual, real likely first stage solution to the 340, virgin and unmarked, and then marked with possible intended words. Do you think all these words appear by chance?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:11 am

Morf & Rand

These are the threat letters to Ted Kennedy I was talking about ( I think I mentioned them in Chat last night).:

These two items reminded me slightly of some Zodiac writing, and the ornate writing on the possible Hautz envelope and the card to the Lass sister.

, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:18 am

Anyone can choose a few letters and get what they want. My challenge is: USE THE FIRST 7 LINES AND GET TWO SENTENCES THAT MAKE SENSE AND ARE GERMANE TO THE CASE. HECK, IF ONE LETTER DOESN’T WORK OR I CAN’T FIND A LETTER I NEED, THE WHOLE THING HAS TO BE DONE OVER AGAIN. IT’S OBVIOUS THAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITIES INVOLVED. PLEASE TAKE MY CHALLENGE AS I GAVE IT. USE THE FIRST 7 LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. YOU CAN USE WHATEVER SUBSTITUTE YOU WANT FOR THE BOXES BUT BE CONSISTENT.

IMO, your solution is not very consistent. You use boxes for E. Another certain type of box for N. You also use E for E and the backwards K for E and
the backwards K is also used for K.
v is used as an A, U, and V. The + sign is used for "and" and also T.
You made 4 rules out of nowhere.
Triangle for "the".
Backwards K for E.
Boxes for E.
Slashed box for N.

You are making it fit and it would be easy for anyone to make up 4 rules like yours and come up with 2 sentences.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:35 am

Rand – There is nothing to suggest that Zodiac wanted us to take his cipher symbols and turn them all into letters. So I personally will not waste time playing with your concept. Others may.

Look, you came up with a creative proposed solution, and.. I don’t buy it. My opinion. Please submit your solution to the police and see if they will seek TH’s DNA or prints based on it. Maybe they will, I don’t know. But I doubt it because your solution does not use accpeted code principles and results in obscene and anti-semitic langauge that Zodiac never used. You have a lot better evidence regarding TH, IMO.

Here is what I think is the actual, real likely first stage solution to the 340, virgin and unmarked, and then marked with possible intended words. Do you think all these words appear by chance?

OF COURSE, AK, YOUR SOLUTION ABOVE MUST BE CORRECT. IT’S FABULOUS!! Very enlightening and germane to the case. I don’t know what I’ve been thinking about. It’s obvious the solution to the 340 couldn’t be what I’ve done. I substituted boxes for Es (of which there are barely any) and a triangle for THE. An occasional box with a diagonal for an N. THAT MUST BE WRONG. HOW FORCED OF ME TO THINK THAT THERE IS A SUBSTITUTE FOR Es AND IT’S THE BOXES. HOW RIDICULOUS OF ME TO THINK THAT THE CHARACTERS ARE SIMPLY LETTERS TURNED UPSIDE DOWN OR ON THEIR SIDE. IT’S OBVIOUSLY FORCED. AND IT’S OBVIOUS ANYONE COULD COME UP WITH ANYTHING BY MOVING LETTERS AROUND. IT CLEARLY DOESN’T COMPARE TO WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU’VE DONE ABOVE. IT’S SO OBVIOUS THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS SUPERIOR. IT’S SO OBVIOUS THAT WHAT YOU’VE DONE WITH IT AS A CIPHER IS MEANINGFUL AND ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

SORRY TO HAVE WASTED EVERYONE’S TIME WITH SO OBVIOUSLY SILLY A SOLUTION.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:40 am

I don’t know why this solution (and I’m quite certain it is the solution) doesn’t strike you as compelling.

I’ve been with you up to here Rand but I’m starting to get confused now. You came up with a solution to the 340 which apparently took you nearly all of last summer to refine and you stated that you are absolutely 100% certain that it’s correct and would stand by it. This latest new solution is entirely different to that and conveys an entirely different message. Which one is correct as you state that both are??? :confused:

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:43 am

This one is correct, IMO. I know I thought that the last one was correct. Of course, when you spend an entire summer doing something, you get excited and want to believe it’s correct. It was on the right track but too many substitutions. I think that this is correct. But it only took me a couple of days to do. And I realize that it’s a total waste of time. Unless I provide a "solution" to the 340 that treats it as a cipher, no one will take it seriously. But it’s not a cipher, so it will never be solved. I’m just wasting my time pointing out that Z was into anagrams. What can I say? I’m not going to give this another minute of time or thought.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:55 am

Here’s the problem in a nutshell: Gareth Penn put out this absurd theory that Z was a supermath genius who encoded his messages in binary Morse code. VOILA! Z becomes a super genius who created a cipher that can’t be cracked by supercomputers.

The truth is more likely that Z made a cipher, the 408, and it was solved by amateurs in less than a day. So he thinks to himself: what a waste of time! I better come up with something different next time. So he writes out a message that consists of things like an upside down backward L for r; an upside down and backward J for 1; an I with a dot for I'(m), etc. Then he cuts it up and puts it back together in anagram form. Of course, he doesn’t understand that cipher types don’t believe that anything is an anagram. Too many degrees of freedom. So the thing remains unsolved. Frustrated, he says: by the way did you solve the last cipher I sent you? My Name Is —
whereupon he puts a simple anagram with an ARIES sign upside down. He’s not going to give his name, so he puts AKA M(ARIES) MONOTONE. He figures everyone knows he has a monotone voice. Mary is a common name. And there’s AKA in the anagram. So., once again he figures people will understand how to solve the 340. But they don’t bite.

The upshot of all this: Gareth Penn’s version of Z, which made Z what he is today — the most famous serial killer in US history — has become the standard view. And the 340 is seen as an indecipherable cipher created by a math genius who happened to be a serial killer. On the bright side, without Penn’s madness we probably wouldn’t care much about the Zodiac case. It was his version that turned Z into the myth he is today.

Quagmire, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:02 am

Sorry Rand – I’m definitely lost now! Who the bloody hell is Mary??!

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:02 am

This one is correct, IMO. I know I thought that the last one was correct. Of course, when you spend an entire summer doing something, you get excited and want to believe it’s correct. It was on the right track but too many substitutions. I think that this is correct. But it only took me a couple of days to do. And I realize that it’s a total waste of time. Unless I provide a "solution" to the 340 that treats it as a cipher, no one will take it seriously. But it’s not a cipher, so it will never be solved. I’m just wasting my time pointing out that Z was into anagrams. What can I say? I’m not going to give this another minute of time or thought.

Remember, THICK SKIN, we all make mistakes, but you cant get mad if some people dont see what you see, or the majority of people think its wrong.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:28 am

Sorry Rand – I’m definitely lost now! Who the bloody hell is Mary??!

Mary Tollerton, IMO. She was the pretty woman who worked at the Minutemen Headquarters in Norborne, MO — Troy Houghton’s home away from home. I’m sure he made lots of passes at her and wanted to believe she was interested in him. Perhaps she was.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:29 am

This one is correct, IMO. I know I thought that the last one was correct. Of course, when you spend an entire summer doing something, you get excited and want to believe it’s correct. It was on the right track but too many substitutions. I think that this is correct. But it only took me a couple of days to do. And I realize that it’s a total waste of time. Unless I provide a "solution" to the 340 that treats it as a cipher, no one will take it seriously. But it’s not a cipher, so it will never be solved. I’m just wasting my time pointing out that Z was into anagrams. What can I say? I’m not going to give this another minute of time or thought.

Remember, THICK SKIN, we all make mistakes, but you cant get mad if some people dont see what you see, or the majority of people think its wrong.

Yes, I’ve thrown my theory out there. If people disagree with it, oh well…

Quagmire, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:53 am

Sorry Rand – I’m definitely lost now! Who the bloody hell is Mary??!

Mary Tollerton, IMO. She was the pretty woman who worked at the Minutemen Headquarters in Norborne, MO — Troy Houghton’s home away from home. I’m sure he made lots of passes at her and wanted to believe she was interested in him. Perhaps she was.

OK. Thanks for clarifying this for me Rand.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:38 am

Reasons why it’s not a cipher:

1. The dashes at the beginning and end of line 10. If it’s a cipher, then these dashes that mark the beginning and end of the line that appears right at the middle of the 340 were just coincidences.

2. If it’s an anagram rather than a cipher, then Z could play with the placement of the characters to create clues. Look at this line in the 340:

U+R/OTEIDYB…
U R TO DIE BY (after the backslash read backwards)
rest of line: 9BTMKO. The 9 is an upside down b. So you have bOMB with TK left over. Uh-ohhh. The TK people will use this to support their case.

YOU ARE TO DIE BY BOMB. Z sent a bomb threat the next day.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:48 am

Rand I will go you one better. Many have worked on this, including The Foreigner and Bentley. There is a design in the 340, a symetry, a pattern. This would lead one to conclude either that it is not a cipher OR that it is a cipher but that it has tricks, traps and diversions OR it is a cipher but it involves a two stage translation method, such as a Caesar shift code.

Also notice how "09" appears at key points on "The Shape". A hint that the number 9 and multiple or divisors of 9 are used in the decode?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:56 am

The recent FBI code unit analysis says the 340 is a cipher. I agree.

At this post:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … r-t434.htm

You will find a link to the webtoy 340 code solver.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:04 pm

I know. The FBI doesn’t know what it’s talking about. They also believed that TH was dead based on a wild story concocted by, as it turns out (but they didn’t know), his step sister and brother-in-law. They haven’t solved this case in over 40 years or cracked the cipher. I couldn’t give a hoot in hell what the FBI thinks or doesn’t think. They’re one of the problems with, not the solution to, this case.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:51 pm

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:26 am

All the more reason to believe it’s an anagram, not a cipher. Anagrams would give him the degrees of freedom to place characters where he wants them. A cipher doesn’t afford those degrees of freedom. The >, < ^, v are Us and As in my view. Lots of them to play with.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:08 am

How does the FBI know it’s a cipher if they can’t decipher it?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:19 pm

They say with their supercomputers and expert knowledge, and experience with codes, they can detect patterns indicated it does have a message, that it is NOT just random gibberish. Each of us can believe that or not.

The design patterns noted by myself and many others indicate that it is likely not just a regular cipher, but a multi-stage code that involves some anagram use. That is in fact what I think it is, and the decodes by Kite and myself using the Caesar Shift Code with 0-3-6-9 values is a multi-stage solution that involves some anagram use.

This is the proposed first stage of the solution – it comes from the 1979 FBI file and was slightly reworked by a group on the old zk board – and you can see Zodiac mixed in real words even whole coherent sentences with apparent gibberish. The gibberish (and even some of the words) are then subject to the second stage, a Caesar Shift Code.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:37 pm

They say with their supercomputers and expert knowledge, and experience with codes, they can detect patterns indicated it does have a message, that it is NOT just random gibberish. Each of us can believe that or not.

I can see patterns. But until they find it says SOMETHING, ANYTHING, ANYWHERE…I just don’t know how they can say that. It’s like Spocks "best guess"…better than most, but…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:44 pm

They say with their supercomputers and expert knowledge, and experience with codes, they can detect patterns indicated it does have a message, that it is NOT just random gibberish. Each of us can believe that or not.

I can see patterns. But until they find it says SOMETHING, ANYTHING, ANYWHERE…I just don’t know how they can say that. It’s like Spocks "best guess"…better than most, but…

Here is what I think is the actual, real likely first stage solution to the 340, marked with possible intended words.

Do you not think this "says something"?

"HERCEAN…I GIVE THEM HELL TOO…SEE A NAME … THESE FOOLSHALL SEE".

Do you think all these words appear by chance?

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:45 am

I can’t believe that you find HERCEAN…etc., etc. compelling and don’t think what I’ve done is worthy of comment or a possible solution. It’s just incredible to me. But go figure. I wish I had Z here and he could tell you for himself. Is the problem that my solution actually makes sense and uses the characters as they appear in Z’s 340 (just rearranged)?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:51 am

Paul was apparently not Jewish, and his name was not spelled the more typically Jewish way of "Stein".

Zodiac seems like a pretty smart fellow to me, so why would he go through tremendous work to create a code to say something that isn’t true?

Also, every bit of available evidence shows Stine was on his way to another fare when he picked up Zodiac. There is nothing to show that Z picked Stine, or had a grudge against Stine, or even knew the name of the cabbie before he stepped in that cab.

And nothing in previous Zodiac writing shows him to be racist or anti-semitic.

So IMO you have done a good and interesting effort, but I do not think it likely to be the correct solution.

I think the correct 340 solution is the one I posted above.

Who knows? Maybe we are both wrong.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:58 am

There is nothing in my solution that suggests that Z knew Stine or met him. He is mistaken in believing that Stine is a Jewish name, like Stein. That’s all. It’s an honest mistake on Z’s part. I’m sure the newspapers didn’t say: "A cab driver, Paul Stine, was murdered last night. By the way, Stine was not Jewish, even though his name sounds like Stein."

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:33 am

OK, maybe.

But you have Zodiac saying "fucking jewbag".

I have never heard the term "jewbag".

More importantly, you have Zodiac saying "fucking", which he never said before, and blatantly racist and anti-semitic "jewbag", when he never said anything remotely racist or anti-semitic before.

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:10 am

But you have Zodiac saying "fucking jewbag".

I have never heard the term "jewbag".

More importantly, you have Zodiac saying "fucking", which he never said before, and blatantly racist and anti-semitic "jewbag", when he never said anything remotely racist or anti-semitic before.

First, I’m Jewish. The term "fucking jewbag" is fairly common. Here’s a link:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p … =jew%20bag

Second, Z used the word F**K: Fk, I’m crackproof:

Third, you say that Z never said anything remotely racist. I tend to think this is a Z letter. It seems racist to me.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:20 am

1. OK, "Jewbag" is a slang word. I never heard of it before. But I don’t claim to be an expert on slang.

2. Well it is not clear what Zodiac meant by "Fk". Some have speculated he meant "F–k". But if so, why didn’t he do it that way, or "F#$%"? As "Fk", in the context of "Fk I’m crackproof" it is not clear what he means. The Mad Bomber of NY signed his letters "FP", which also happens in the book "The Secret Agent" as a terror group named "FP". A possible "F K" in Asian style appears at the bottom of the Exorcist letter, and a possible "F Z" on the Halloween Card. Zodiac suspect Ted Kaczynski signed his letters as "FC". So it has been debated what Zodiac meant by "Fk".

If he did mean the curse word, he was discreet by NOT spelling it out, but here you have him spelling it out. Other than one "Bullshit", I don’t recall any other profanity in Z letters, and you have got him being explicit with the F word and spelling it out. Could have happened, but no history of that.

3. That May 78 letter, with the Manson stuff and the N word, has to my knowledge never been deemed authentic by police or a handwriting expert. The writing and tone appear different from previous Z letters. I happen to personally think it could be real, and an attempt at a misdirection by Zodiac, and as Manson was racist, the N word fits that as well. But we just don’t know if that is a real Z letter or not.

Also, even if that letter is real, and an honest expression of Zodiac’s views as opposed to a misdirection, it reveals a racism against blacks. I don’t see anything in any Z letter, confirmed or possible, indicating anti-Jewish feeling. I don’t agree, but some have even nominated persons with Jewish heritage or belief as suspects – Kane and O’Hare come to mind.

On the flip side, however, I thought Zodiac mentioning people wearing buttons saying "peace" or "black power" was an insult to them, a mocking of the student left and the black power movement. Also, Z used the old "racist" (or so deemed) version of the Mikado lyric about "banjo" players, which most had changed in current productions by the 60’s, as it was considered racist to blacks. So there is at least a little evidence (arguably) about Z being racist.

The bottom line is that the opinion of myself and others on this board about your proposed code solution is next to useless. If you truly think you have really solved the code, do what I did, and submit it to the police and FBI.

You can see the "Fk" better here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … f-t102.htm

rand, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:29 am

2. Well it is not clear what Zodiac meant by "Fk". Some have speculated he meant "F–k". But if so, why didn’t he do it that way, or "F#$%"? As "Fk", in the context of "Fk I’m crackproof" it is not clear what he means. The Mad Bomber of NY signed his letters "FP", which also happens in the book "The Secret Agent" as a terror group named "FP". A possible "F K" in Asian style appears at the bottom of the Exorcist letter, and a possible "F Z" on the Halloween Card. Zodiac suspect Ted Kaczynski signed his letters as "FC". So it has been debated what Zodiac meant by "Fk".
If he did mean the curse word, he was discreet by NOT spelling it out, but here you have him spelling it out. Other than one "Bullshit", I don’t recall any other profanity in Z letters, and you have got him being explicit with the F word and spelling it out. Could have happened, but no history of that.

Seems obvous to me that Fk refers to Fu@k; in fact, it never occurred to me that there was anything murky about it. But that’s my reading of it. Your explanations don’t make any sense to me. FP isn’t Fk; nor is F Z (if that’s what you see on the HC). If you’re going to assume that Fk means something other than the obvious in that sentence, then shouldn’t you say precisely what you think it says? So far I see nothing to make me think that it is anything other than what it looks like.

As for being discreet, he encoded it for heaven’s sake. Isn’t that more discreet than F#$K? And how would you encode that? How would someone translate that from code?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:35 am

I have no explanation, but I (and others) have explored if Zodiac used used, for whatever reason, two letters starting with "F" as a signature of some kind – FK, FZ, FK.

And if you are right that Fk means F–k, then why was he discreet there but you have him saying Fu—-g Jewbag?

It is a departure in tone. But who knows?

As I said, my opinion means little.

If you really and truly honestly think you have solved the code, do what I did, submit it to the FBI and police.

morf13, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:39 am

I think the FK meant F**k as well.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: 340: FIRST 10 LINES or so   Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:43 am

It very well could. That is the simplest conclusion.

If so, it raised the question why Z was discreet here but not with the 340 solution.