traveller1st, Subject: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:47 am

Not sure if this has been done before.

Messing around as usual and as a matter of course I thought I would stick my re-constructed 408 beside the 340 and stare at them for a while.

I noticed that the reversed k on the first line in each was in the same position so I thought I’d better check and see what others were. The diagram below shows the results with the matching symbols in each cipher highlighted.

There was a happy accident whereby I misplaced or incorrectly placed the overlay and found the match ups in the middle section where they are in the same positions but off by one line. This middle chunk lines up with and/or falls within the constrains of the 8 lines matching the splits in the 408, as do the other 2 chunks which line up with the same line as well as position on the line.

The other happy accident or discovery was the similarity in pattern of the 5 symbol section comprised of the matching Y in the centre with matching symbols at position 1 and 5 or start and end if you prefer.

This was all done matching from the top down but there are possibly matches to be seen working from the bottom up. In the 340, 3 lines from the bottom is the ‘word’ POSH. The PO in the word match line and position with PO in the 408 so that’s one at least.

Not sure what any of this could imply, as usual, but it looks interesting.

EDIT: Just to add that 5 symbol pattern translated to YOUMY in the Harden’s solution.

morf13, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:03 pm

Wow Trav,thats real interesting. You better get Dave in here and start attacking that, thats no coincidence. Tried to use his webtoy but its down
What were those letters in that spot on the 408? Maybe the letters in the 408 that were on those spots also correspond with the 340

smithy, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:12 pm

As usual Trav, your graffix is fantastix.

Hmmm.
Since the first few lines in both ciphers would contain the most variety, since they’d reflect the "first use" of symbols, then I suppose we should expect to see some coincidences in terms of placement between the two, given the symbol sets also overlap.
And since the "+" is the most common symbol in the 340 by some margin, you might also expect to see that.
Staistically, is it what you’d expect? I dunno. And I’m still gazing, in wonder.

How you noticed the "one line difference" thing I’ll never know.

entropy, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:23 pm

Cool stuff, traveller. Hmm… staring at the ciphers? Why has nobody ever thought of that before?

Could just be random happenstance since there are really only a few symbols matching in the same position between the two ciphers but there just seem to be endless anomalies like this, don’t there? I still have an intuitive hunch that there is SOME sort of interconnection between the 408 and 340 ciphers and that finding that connection could be the key to solving the 340. Perhaps looking at the two ciphers together in the way you link them together here might be of some benefit? Still think this was one of the most underappreciated cipher observations to date:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … 24-44-rows

Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:28 pm

Trav:

You missed one, i’m sure you’ll see it…

Nice Job…

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:22 pm

Yeah I’m not convinced myself that it isn’t just coincidence but it does have me wondering now if the 3 8’s in the Z13 aren’t some sort of skewed reference to the Z408 and it’s splits in relation to something that’s happening in the Z340. Did he use the layout of the symbols in the 408 in some weird way to create another encryption layer of some description?

The fact that the middle section is moved by one line within the 8 x 17 grid of the 408 ciphers is maybe an indication of some sort of referencing?

Also that the 5 symbol thingy falls right in the section of the 408 pertaining to his name and the Z13 of course was preceded by M name is ______ and the Z13 having 3 x 8 symbols which matches the line splits of the Z408.

Are these clews? be there dragons? or is it just another bunch of *ss? :scratch:

Daniel. feel free to point it out, my staring engine is down at the mo lol.

Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:27 pm

oops. sorry i got it wrong … right spot wrong characters…

This is very intersesting Trave again nice job…

Daniel

tahoe27, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:30 pm

So what are the words in the those sections of the 408 that might be the same words in the 340?

smithy, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:32 pm

Daniel – you meant the one on the end of line 6, no?
I’m sure there are more. I’d be disappointed if there aren’t.

T. – Naaaa, they can’t possibly have the same words in the same places. That wouldn’t be allowed.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:39 pm

I agree.

I don’t think that the 2 sections compared have the same solution. The translation in the 408 was YOUMY as in GIVEYOUMYNAME but I very much doubt that is the same in the 340 even if there is something to the similarities in placement but you never know.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:44 pm

I don’t think they would be the same words, but similarities with those words. Two "L’s", etc.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:44 pm

Daniel – you meant the one on the end of line 6, no?
I’m sure there are more. I’d be disappointed if there aren’t.

T. – Naaaa, they can’t possibly have the same words in the same places. That wouldn’t be allowed.

Thanks Smithy.

UPDATED.

morf13, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:00 pm

In the 408 solved by Harden, the open square represented the letter L, the backwards D stood for letter O, backwards Y stood for letter U,backwards Q stood for letter M, if we use those same solutions for the 340, the name LOU or LOUML seems to be present…just double check me on that,I used Hardin’s Keyscratch paper…

So maybe in the 340, the B symbol equals the letter L, the open square symbol equals the letter O, the backwards Y still stands for letter U like it did in the 408,the O symbol stands for letter M

smithy, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:04 pm

I don’t think they would be the same words, but similarities with those words. Two "L’s", etc.

Sorry T., I was being sarcy as usual.
The first three occurences are vowels I think (without looking it up, just reading through it from the start, having the solution in my head – ahem) – so I suppose there’s just the vague notion that they might represent characters that occur more often – from ETAOIN, for instance.
But it’s one hell of a reach, that!
I like the words coincidence and zynchronicity.

doranchak, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:13 pm

Trav:

IMO, the matching symbols are driven by the same coincidence-producing process that drives the matches that occur within the same cipher text, such as this discovery of yours:

Discussion on ZKF: http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=22615#p22615

I also explore such patterns in my article about the pivots: http://zodiackillerciphers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Pivots

You can compare the 340 and 408 directly via CryptoScope: http://oranchak.com/zodiac/webtoy/stats.html Scroll down to "Alignment analysis", then click the "Toggle form" button, then click "Load 340 and 408". Then, when you click the "Compute" button, you’ll see a grid summarizing the results of coincidences produced when lining up and comparing both cipher texts using various offsets. For example, if you click the link in the square corresponding to offset (0,0), you’ll get this:

which partially reproduces your findings. As you experiment with various offsets, and the cipher texts themselves, you can produce further coincidences.

morf13, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:18 pm

Dave,whats up with the webtoy site?

doranchak, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:20 pm

Dave,whats up with the webtoy site?

It’s working fine for me. You still can’t get to it?

http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/oranchak.com says that it’s up.

I’ve heard other reports of people having problems reaching the site, though. My service provider might be doing something goofy.

doranchak, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:24 pm

Here is more evidence that the patterns are just coincidences.

First, take the 408 and shuffle it like a deck of cards. Then, do the same to the 340. Stick both ciphers in the alignment tool and you’ll see the same kinds of coincidences. Here’s an example:

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:25 pm

Trav I highly suggest that you try getting amazing UK Savant Daniel Tammet to stare at thise two ciphers (and the other unsolved ciphers as well)

Here is info on Daniel Tammet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet

Here is an absolutly stunning program about him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-TJxI-WUMs

And just make it clear, I´m serious about this suggestion.

If my english, and code/cipher insigt, was better I would try contacting him myself, but I think it would be better if somone like Trav, doranchak or Morf or somone else with insight in codes and symbols etc did it.

morf13, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:33 pm

Here is more evidence that the patterns are just coincidences.

First, take the 408 and shuffle it like a deck of cards. Then, do the same to the 340. Stick both ciphers in the alignment tool and you’ll see the same kinds of coincidences. Here’s an example:

Dave,I know you are far more experienced then me with this stuff,but your example shows single letters popping up in the same spot,whereas Trav’s example is a ‘string’ with the backwards Y being in the same spot in the middle. How do we know if this is a coincidence? If the 340 symbols in that string represent the same letters as they did in the 408, I see the name LOUML. Do you see that? Double check me please.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:45 pm

Yeah probably is all coincidence. Still you can prove anything with …..

You’ll notice that after all this time I still forget that cryptoscope exists

doranchak, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:02 pm

Dave,I know you are far more experienced then me with this stuff,but your example shows single letters popping up in the same spot,whereas Trav’s example is a ‘string’ with the backwards Y being in the same spot in the middle. How do we know if this is a coincidence? If the 340 symbols in that string represent the same letters as they did in the 408, I see the name LOUML. Do you see that? Double check me please.

To show that the repeating string is just a coincidence, we have to search for all such patterns, and there are many possibilities that we have not yet considered.

The pattern trav brings up is: A?X?A (the "A"s representing the repeating symbols, "X" represents the "middle" symbol shared between ciphers, and each "?" is a wildcard). But there are many other patterns we might be interested in searching for, such as: AXA, A??X??A, AX?A, A?XA, AAX, XAA, etc. And if you allow for the repeating strings to be offset by a line or two, you increase the chances of finding matches.

With so many variants, I think more matches would turn up, even on randomly generated cipher texts.

doranchak, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:04 pm

Yeah probably is all coincidence. Still you can prove anything with …..

You’ll notice that after all this time I still forget that cryptoscope exists

That only means that my software must be forgettable!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:20 pm

Actually it’s probably my subconscious telling me to avoid it because it would spoil all those little "I think I might have found something" moments.

morf13, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:22 pm

Not sure if this has been done before.

Messing around as usual and as a matter of course I thought I would stick my re-constructed 408 beside the 340 and stare at them for a while.

I noticed that the reversed k on the first line in each was in the same position so I thought I’d better check and see what others were. The diagram below shows the results with the matching symbols in each cipher highlighted.

There was a happy accident whereby I misplaced or incorrectly placed the overlay and found the match ups in the middle section where they are in the same positions but off by one line. This middle chunk lines up with and/or falls within the constrains of the 8 lines matching the splits in the 408, as do the other 2 chunks which line up with the same line as well as position on the line.

The other happy accident or discovery was the similarity in pattern of the 5 symbol section comprised of the matching Y in the centre with matching symbols at position 1 and 5 or start and end if you prefer.

This was all done matching from the top down but there are possibly matches to be seen working from the bottom up. In the 340, 3 lines from the bottom is the ‘word’ POSH. The PO in the word match line and position with PO in the 408 so that’s one at least.

Not sure what any of this could imply, as usual, but it looks interesting.

EDIT: Just to add that 5 symbol pattern translated to YOUMY in the Harden’s solution.

TRAV,I saw this at Zkfacts,and thought of you. I think they were on the same wavelength as you.

mike_r, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:09 pm

Hi Trav-

Nice job. We just have to keep looking at the evidence and noticing different patterns. One of them is going to pay off! I am not a statistician or cryptographer but I sense this may have some significance. I sent this to two guys I know who are heavy into crypto. I’ll see what they say. This once again proves that no matter how many things people discover about the case there are still new frontiers to be explored.

Mike

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:10 am

Morf,

I would say they were cause that looks like one of my ‘diagonals’ diagrams but I don’t recognise the numbers and stuff that’s been added to it.

Mike R,

Cool & thanks. I don’t know if anything will ever come of these patterns and things in the 340 but at the very least it’s been good working through them because some of them in the past were quite impressive looking but with Doranchak’s help we were able to show that they were quite normal.

I do feel however, that no matter how compelling some of these look, they are just surface scattering. Still, you never know and at least by looking at them and showing that they are such, it saves others down the line having to wonder about them.

traveller1st, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:22 am

Trav I highly suggest that you try getting amazing UK Savant Daniel Tammet to stare at thise two ciphers (and the other unsolved ciphers as well)

Thank you for this TF. I sent and invitation to Daniel this morning via his management Co.

smithy, Subject: Re: 408 vs 340 – Anyone seen this before?   Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:53 am

And now, an admission.

Since "conventional" computing has, at this point, failed to make sense of the 340, and so has cryptology (it’s not cryptology’s fault – it’s the "Zodiac’s" fault, but I digress), I decided a couple of years ago that I might be able to "think about" the 340 and find some limited potential areas of solution for myself, perhaps some words which are repeated, maybe, if I memorised it. Ahem.

So I set about doing so. I can recite it for you, if you like, using symbol names where letters – or backward letters – aren’t appropriate.
Well. I can for the first four lines, since it was about then that I came to my senses and decided it was time I left the house again.
(It’s like the time I decided to memorise square roots. Knowing what 1.41421356237 multiplied by itself is doesn’t go down well at parties, either.)

As far as I’m concerned, the exercise of "holding the 340 in your head", is futile, then. You’re not "storing" it in a way which allows comparison and manipulation, if you do it one symbol (I used the word advisedly) at a time. And to "store it" in a way you can think about its elements as strings for comparison, or as words, or as anything "useful"? Hmmmm. Is there some other way someone else might be able to "store" it to do so?
Perhaps.
But even so, would that be useful? I don’t think so.

I predict, then, that even as prodigious and unusual a memory as that possessed of by Daniel Tammet, could do absolutely nothing with it. Nada. Zilch.

If you’d like to check for yourself what I’m trying to say (and perhaps failing), then isolate, write down and think about memorising the symbols for the word "killing" in the 408, from that first line. Then take the second occurence and do the same, then see what sense you can make of visualising them, or chanting them, or trying to relate them to something else, and to each other. It’s a bit difficult.

I’m pleased I’ve admitted this. I feel better.

It may be solved this way, btw – by acheiving a readable table of believable material using a comparison of "probable" words which fit against a lexicon and don’t create too many multi-phones. But that won’t be done in anyones head. I’m pretty sure of that.