On the right is the formation of the 1st occurrences that I eventually zeroed in on.

You get the above formation by taking the 1st occurrences of symbols from the cipher snaking back and fourth (left to right row 1, right to left in row 2, etc) and then you also write them out into the formation the same way, snaking back and fourth.

I thought this formation was visually interesting looking with the "+" symbol right in the middle of the formation, but there are also 3 other instances where there are multiple symbols from the "HER" sequence together. There are the symbols "GT," together horizontally, "BYL" vertically, and if you’re going to interpret the vertical line symbol as the letter "I" then there’s also the symbols "IV" together vertically.

"H E R" O "B Y L" "I V" S F C P M Z W J "G T" Q D A N K X U

These just look random to me. There doesn’t appear to be any rhyme or reason to them, but I was screwing around one time, treating those symbols as though they might have been intentionally placed as guides, and I was also treating the plus symbol position like it was a null position.

What I noticed is if you start in the bottom right hand corner with the letter "N" and you write out the "HER" sequence in a snaking horizontal path, and you skip the "+" symbol position, the letters "GT" end up in the same location as the symbols "GT," as seen below.

and if you start in the bottom left hand corner with the letter "U," write out the "HER" sequence snaking horizontally, again skip the "+" symbol, then the letters "HER" end up in the same position as the symbols "HER"

If you write out the "HER" sequence starting with the letter "L" from the upper left hand corner in a path snaking down and up, skip the "+" symbol position, then the letters "IV" end up in the same location as the symbols "IV"

and if you start from the upper right hand corner with the letter "L" write it out in a snaking vertical path again, skip the "+" symbol, then the letters "BYL" end up in the same location as the symbols "BYL."

So the letters that I started out with in each instance spell out the word "NULL."

A few things about this:

1) I don’t need to treat the + symbol position like a null, I could treat a different position. I just thought it was the most visually interesting looking that way and most people would probably agree that the + symbol is the most unusual symbol in the cipher so it feels right to me.

2) if it spelled out some other word like "FOUR," or "KILL" or something like that I would probably find that interesting too.

3) There are a couple of inconsistencies to it that bother me:

When I start with the letter "U" in the bottom left hand corner, I don’t need to write it out in a snaking path in order to get the letters "HER" to align with the
symbols "HER." I can just write it out straight. However, the other 3 times I have to write it out into a snaking path.

Also, when I start with the letter "L" in the upper right I don’t need to skip any symbol at all, however again with the other 3 I have to skip some symbol.

I personally think that if there’s something to this these are probably supposed to be written out into 1 big formation like this. I just find this intriguing looking because it spells out the word "NULL" right in the middle of the formation but then of course the formation is comprised of 4 sections or quadrants and in the middle of each section is an empty space or null position.

I could create different formations of course by taking the 1st occurrences from the cipher snaking back and fourth, and writing them out snaking back and fourth from a different corner, or write them out snaking vertically and create 7×9 formations, but i’m going to use this formation as my example because it’s the one I’ve spent the most time working with and there’s that consistency to it.

I’ll be back later to continue.

Probably need to ensure the dropbox folder for your images is set to ‘public’.

Here’s a thread regarding this issue on phpbb boards. https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtop … &t=2415366

Your idea sounds interesting, but none of your images are working…

Probably need to ensure the dropbox folder for your images is set to ‘public’.

Sorry guys, I think I have it fixed now. I hope I have it fixed : / I’ll be back later to share more about where I’ve been going with this.

Thanks

This may not be necessary, but I wanted to clarify the following statement with some images.

I could create different formations of course by taking the 1st occurrences from the cipher snaking back and fourth, and writing them out snaking back and fourth from a different corner, or write them out snaking vertically and create 7×9 formations

If one of these things is some kind of key to solving it, I can’ t figure out exactly what to do.

If I go in and fill in the + symbols into the empty spaces in the middle of each quadrant as seen below, to me it looks like possibly there’s some sort of addition that’s supposed to be going on.

Below is the same image as above except I’ve color coded each quadrant.

So the idea that I got hung up on the most is that the symbols are supposed to be matched up into groups of 4 somehow, and then 4 symbols would ultimately decipher to 1 letter.

I thought the simplest example is if you just write out the alphabet, and number each letter, 1 through 26, and then continue numbering it, 27 through 52, then 53 through 78, and lastly 79 through 104…

The idea would be that each symbol solves to a letter, each letter would have an initial corresponding value that you get from that 1st row, then you simply add those numbers together, and then that number would correspond to the letter that’s actually part of the message.

Hopefully people can sort through this image and understand what I’m getting at.

I thought that this would be kind of slick because it would allow for the symbols that are part of the 1st occurrences to also be used as part of the message.

I thought it went along nicely with the + symbol theme of the cipher… addition.

A process like this would also allow for the creation of a lot of unusual features since the only symbol that really matters is the last one, the last symbol just needs to take you from where you’re at with the 1st 3, to where you need to be, but why artificially create the specific unusual features that are present in the 340 cipher? I don’t know honestly.

Beyond that it’s somewhat overly weird (why would he do this?), would make the message much shorter (85 letters or less if each symbol is used only once,) and of course no matter how I match up the symbols I always get a bunch of random letters that don’t appear to say anything… so there’s that problem.

Generally I’ve treated the + symbols as though they’re used as part of recovering the message in the sense that they occupy space, but they have no value. So in the following instance below where there’s a + symbol involved, only 3 numbers get added together.

Maybe that’s not right though. I’ve considered that they’re supposed to be taken out and then the remaining symbols need to be written out into a different configuration, or maybe something else is supposed to happen with them.

Also, there are plenty of different ways that values can be given to letters: You can start counting from 1 or 0, he could have counted the "HER" sequence, a Vigenere square could be used to add up letters ( I think that’s like counting from zero). Letters could be omitted or merged when counting.

I’ve even considered something like what’s pictured below where the values of the letters would be different depending on which quadrant the letter is in. Not sure if it’s realistic to think that he would have done something like this, but I personally like the way it looks.

Someone on this forum posted a link to this old U.S. Army Cryptography Manual.

https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/decla … 078809.pdf

This is a screenshot of one of the processes that caught my eye.

I have a little bit more to share later, little observations, variations on how to match up symbols, etc. but this is the bulk of what I’ve been doing so far. Lately I’ve been experimenting with the 7×9 formations more. I’ll explain in more detail in the next couple of days.

But I was curious if other people could come up with other, better processes than what I’ve come up with. I personally like addition: Add em’ up, add em’ up, add em’ up.

Maybe the message is just in the bottom, or the 1st occurrences actually come out and something is done with the remaining symbols. Maybe only 2 symbols decipher to 1 letter, instead of 4. These are all possibilities that have crossed my mind, but haven’t necessarily worked much.

Anyways, thanks for letting me share my work on your site, and good luck to everyone that’s taking the time to look at this thing, no matter how you’re looking at it. Hopefully we’ll have some kind of verifiable solution at some point and then we can all go outside.

Pretty impressive work, and an interesting way to look at this thing! The 7×9 grids seem to coincide more with the formatting of the "paradice/slaves" cross on the HC card.

Have you experimented with using the bomb diagrams as clues for solving the cipher? The death machine letter really sounds more like a wink at how the cipher works than an actual bomb (IMO).

Maybe try backwards and forward in 5 symbol groupings?
Jelberg

Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:04 pm

Thanks. I actually haven’t given much consideration to any of his other correspondences. I am aware of the Halloween card though obviously, and you’re right, that configuration does more closely resemble the diagram thing written on the back of the card. As for the bomb diagrams, and death machine letter, I may give those a look at some point. Thanks for the suggestions.

There are lots of different ways to match up the symbols obviously. One idea that I’ve been experimenting with recently is that the key is actually supposed to be placed on top of the cipher, sort of slid horizontally, and vertically, and the symbols get matched up into the configuration of the empty spaces, however if you do this with any of the 9×7 configurations and keep the cipher in it’s original state you never hit column 9. The key is too wide.

So I’ve been focusing more on the 7×9 formations while experimenting with this.

The following image shows basically what i’m getting at. Then it would be moved around and the symbols just get matched up in groups of four that way.

One thing I like about this is that many of the symbols get used more than once making the message potentially longer, 110 letters or less.

What I don’t like about it is nothing that I try has yielded any positive results… so there’s that problem. Rewriting the cipher into different configurations is something i’m experimenting with.

I was also thinking that if i’m going to interpret the 1st 4 symbols as essentially saying "HER and then continue with this pattern," if i’m going to go there, which clearly I have…

Then it’s probably not unreasonable to consider the possibility that the next 4 symbols have some special significance as well: The backwards "P" symbol could be interpreted as a 9, the backwards "L" symbol could be interpreted as calling out the bottom right hand corner, and then the upside down "V" and "V" symbols could be interpreted as calling out a snaking vertical path.

So maybe he’s saying columns of 9, from the bottom right hand corner, snaking up and down.

I don’t know honestly. It’s highly subjective, but i’m still trying.

These are just some other random observations I made.

I noticed this pattern. There are other patterns like this in the cipher, but I thought this one was interesting, because it involves the 1st few occurrences of + symbols.

It breaks down after that.

Considering the cipher to be divided in half, it breaks down on a symbol where you can draw a spiraling route to that symbol through the top half, counter clockwise from the bottom left hand corner.

Considering the bottom half to be mirrored vertically in relationship to the top half, there is an identical symbol in the same location, and a spiraling route can be drawn from the upper left hand corner clockwise to that symbol.

Considering the "top half" to be the rows above row 10 the following spiraling routes can be drawn to that symbol.

The symbols at the axis points of the pivot features are located the same distance apart in the formations of the 1st occurrences of symbols, and writing the 1st occurrences out snaking from the bottom left hand corner puts them into the same orientation.

Considering the cipher to be divided in half, the symbols at the axis points of the pivots are located in the same rows in the top, the same distance apart, but in a different orientation.

From what I can tell, this is not all that uncommon to happen by chance, in fact, just in these 2 rows highlighted I noticed another instance where the same thing occurs with 2 symbols.

The cipher doesn’t really elegantly divide into 4 quadrants because of it’s configuration. I always thought that rows 10 and 20 looked very fake. If you’re trying to get the thing into 4 quadrants from that point, it kind of makes sense to cross out column 9. Then you’re left with these 4 equal quadrants of 72 symbols each.

After doing that these symbols in the corners spell out the word "FOUR."

O.K. I’m going to keep working on it when I can, but I can’t think of anything more to share at this time.

Good luck everyone.

I’ve added another unusual step to what I’ve been doing, and I just wanted to share it.

These unusual features of the cipher have been nagging me a bit, because with this idea that I’ve been working on he may have had the ability to artificially create these features and then preserve them during the encipherment process. But why would he do that? Why are they there?

One thing that I noticed is that if you add up all of the symbols that appear to be possibly being called out by the box corners, and all of the remaining "+" symbols, which I’ve been treating as nulls, they add up to 63 total symbols. I’ve called those out in red in the image below.

So I noted in a previous post on this thread that the symbols at the axis points of the pivot features are the same distance apart in the formation of the 1st occurrences of symbols that I’ve been working with. What I’ve been doing is writing out the formation of the 1st occurrences 1st, using the symbols at the axis points of the pivots in the cipher as indicators as to where exactly to write out the formation and it’s orientation, as seen in the image below.

Then i’m filling in all of the remaining empty spaces with the symbols from the cipher, but i’m omitting all of the "+" symbols, and the symbols that appear to be being called out by the box corner features. There are many different ways to do this obviously.

Then I work through different variations of the process I laid out previously on this thread.

I’ve come up with other little stuff, but this is the only idea I’ve had with any sort of substance really that may give significance to both the pivots and the box corners. Regarding the situation with the cipher looking like it may be artificially divided in half, I think there are lots of different things that could be going on with that, one of those things being nothing of course.

One thing that’s strange about this idea is that I’m removing all of the "+" symbols, but then i’m reintroducing a single "+" symbol back into the situation when I write out the formation of the 1st occurrences.

I however find the single "+" symbols location to be somewhat interesting because I keep thinking that there may be something going on in the bottom right corner of the cipher. One possible way to call out a bottom right corner is with a backwards "L" shape. Both of the pivots are backwards "L" shapes, one of the box corners is a backwards "L" shape, and while the other box corner is not a backwards "L," it is in very close proximity to the bottom right corner. There’s also that tiny "R" that’s written on the cipher near the bottom right corner.

So the reason I find that location interesting is because another Idea that I’ve been somewhat hung up on is that the key is actually supposed to be placed on the cipher and slid back and fourth matching up the symbols in the configuration of the empty spaces in the middle. This idea is more figurative than literal perhaps, meaning i’m not trying to suggest that he necessarily would have physically made something to put on the cipher and slide back and fourth, up and down, but nonetheless, I like the idea that this is how the symbols are supposed to be matched up.

but anyway’s, that "+" symbol just happens to be located in the upper left corner of the key when it is placed in the bottom right most position on the cipher, as illustated below.

and I like that.

I did want to mention too that i’m considering a possible Vigenere step involving some variation of the letters "HERBYLIVGT." That sequence is 10 letters long, and each row of the solution would be 10 letters long if the key on cipher thing is right, so i can’t ignore it.

O.K. I will continue to work on this thing as I have time.

Thanks and good luck everyone.

Very interesting and creative ideas, Irvine! Good luck, and I look forward to hearing more about your progress.

Very interesting and creative ideas, Irvine! Good luck, and I look forward to hearing more about your progress.

Thanks for the encouragement David. I’ll continue to work on it and chime in if I come up with anything else that may be significant.

O.K. I realize that things are starting to get a little bit out of hand here, but another thing that’s been nagging me quite a bit is this business with the forward facing "Q" being the only letter of the alphabet that’s not used as a symbol in the cipher. So I wanted to share some thoughts on that.

First of all, given what we know about the 408 cipher’s construction, I believe that Largo’s explanation that the forward facing "Q" may have been part of the key, but it was mapped to a low frequency plain text letter and simply didn’t make it into the cipher is the best explanation that we have.

That explanation makes perfect sense to me actually.

However, considering what I’m working on here, all of the symbols that are part of the key are represented in the cipher. So I have to ask the question: Why no "Q?"

It could just be coincidence that he left out that letter, but the letter "Q" is a letter that sometimes gets dropped when working through certain encipherment processes.

So I’ve considered writing out the alphabet, and omitting the letter "Q," numbering it as seen below, and then working through variations of the process I laid out previously on this thread.

I don’t particularly like the idea that he may have done this, because to my mind there seems to be no logical reason to omit a letter given the process, but logic really has nothing to do with any of this, so I feel like I must consider it. Maybe he just wanted to get the alphabet down to 25 letters even though it was not really necessary.

I’ve considered that he may have created a Vigenere Square and omitted the letter "Q." But again, why do that?

I’ve also considered that the omission of the letter "Q" as a symbol could be a clue that something was done where the alphabet was counted starting with the letter "Q," as seen below, and then the letters are counted starting from zero, essentially giving the letter "Q" no initial value.

I believe that a Vigenere Square starting with the letter "Q" would also be like giving that letter no numerical value.

I’ve also considered stuff like this but using the "HEROBY…" sequence instead.

Then my thoughts as to why no "Q" led me to consider that there may be some special significance to the other 25 letters of the alphabet that were used as symbols in the cipher. In the image below I’ve circled the 1st occurrence of each symbol again, but the 1st occurrence of each symbol that I perceive to be a forward facing letter I’ve circled in green.

In the image below I’ve written out all of the symbols(letters) that are circled in green into a single row, first taking them from the cipher in normal reading direction, and then taking them from the cipher snaking back and fourth, since there does seem to be a snaking theme to what I’ve been doing so far.

I’d like to note at this time that this cipher was mailed to the San Francisco Chronicle in November of 1969, it remains unsolved to this day, and this is the 2nd time that I’ve worked through some sort of a process involving the 1st occurrences of symbols that has led to the letters "SFC" being next to each other.

The 1st time is when I continued with the pattern of the letters "HER" through the alphabet to get the "HEROBY…" sequence, and now again here.

I just wanted to point that out.

The symbols(letters) could also be taken from the bottom right corner straight or snaking, and then you’d get the same series of letters, just in reverse.

So I can go through all of the stuff I laid out previously in this post about numbering these various series of letters or creating Vigenere Squares out of them, but i’m still left with the nagging question: Why no "Q?"

So I haven’t discounted any of what I’ve laid out previously in this post as possibilities. I simply do not know what he may or may not have done, and there are probably many more things that I haven’t hit on, but the idea that I like the best so far is that he hid a matrix of the symbols for us in the cipher using the 1st occurrence of each symbol. We’re supposed to pull them out, and write them out into some type of a formation, a 7×9, or 9×7 specifically.

Then he also hid a 5×5 matrix of the letters of the alphabet, inside of the matrix of the symbols, but to get the letters of the alphabet down to 25 letters, he simply omitted the low frequency letter "Q." In the example shown below I’ve taken the symbols(letters) from the 9×7 formation snaking back and fourth, and I wrote them out snaking back and fourth.

I’m thinking maybe a possible Playfair step, or something along those lines.

When I notice all this B.S. it just makes me want to stop quite frankly.

I’m starting to think that the only thing I will have learned during the time I’ve spent working on this thing is that coincidences happen coincidentally, but i’m still trying.

One more random thing, I found the image on the left on the internet. If the image is accurate, then both of the last 2 first occurrences of symbols are forms of the letter "A." They are also in the bottom right corner of the 1st occurrences, and they are right next to each other.

I did want to add that setting aside all talk of possible Vigenere or Playfair steps, rewriting the cipher into different configurations, and any other general craziness, just modifying the 340 cipher to solve to a message using the most basic example of the encipherment process I’m considering here is somewhat daunting. This is not something that can be created in an hour. He would have had to set aside considerable time for it, and while not exactly rocket science, he still would have needed to be meticulous. He still would have needed to make sure he had all of his ducks in a row, and when I look at the 408 cipher, and I see all of the sloppiness, and mistakes, i’m quite skeptical that he would have done this or even been capable of doing something like this.

But again, i’m still trying.

Thanks, and good luck everyone.

I did want to add that setting aside all talk of possible Vigenere or Playfair steps, rewriting the cipher into different configurations, and any other general craziness, just modifying the 340 cipher to solve to a message using the most basic example of the encipherment process I’m considering here is somewhat daunting. This is not something that can be created in an hour. He would have had to set aside considerable time for it, and while not exactly rocket science, he still would have needed to be meticulous. He still would have needed to make sure he had all of his ducks in a row, and when I look at the 408 cipher, and I see all of the sloppiness, and mistakes, i’m quite skeptical that he would have done this or even been capable of doing something like this.

The 408 has character. It may just have been one of the first public ciphers that cycled its homophones sequentially. That cycling was probably not well understood by the majority until late 2011 when doranchak created http://zodiackillerciphers.com/wiki/ind … _sequences

The cycling breaks down in the last part and that was probably by choice. The 408 is made up of 3 parts and each part was sent to a different paper. In the notes that came with the ciphers Zodiac reveals the order of which the parts are to be placed in very subtly:

Vallejo times: Here is a cyipher or that is part of one. The other 2 parts have been mailed to the S.F. Examiner + S.F. Chronicle.
SF Examiner: Here is a cipher or that is part of one. The other 2 parts are being mailed to the Vallejo Times + S.F. Chronicle.
SF Chronicle: Here is a part of a cipher the other 2 parts of the cipher are being mailed to the editors of the Vallejo Times + SF Examiner.

Vallejo Times is listed first twice and is the first part. SF Examiner is listed first once and is the second part. SF Chronicle is listed last twice and is the third part.

In the last part Zodiac completes the rectangle with nulls/filler, not something everyone would care for. For that filler he pulls down a 4-gram so that it still appears to be a part of the cipher. The ciphers appear to be in a grid and are generally arranged very orderly. From the 340 we can see that the symbols are constructed in a specific way and with great consistency, something not everyone would manage. While there are some errors in the 408 they could be considered as minor since the cipher still solves very well and in no way would suggest that Zodiac was incapable of complexity. Though I would say that caring for order was more of his thing than being meticulous.