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Homophonic substitution

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Jarlve
(@jarlve)
Posts: 2547
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

@smokie, I think these lines are just a product of the amount of bigrams at those periods.

Interesting! It makes me curious if periodic trigrams could also be found to correlate to the periodic bigram peaks. Or, instead of trigrams, maybe periodic repeating fragments can also be found at the same periods where bigrams are peaking (the periodic equivalent of, say, the A?B?C type patterns where "?" can be any symbol).

If those kinds of patterns also peak at the same periods, maybe it would be a type of confirmation of the scheme.

I made a new measurement. It compares n-grams in the cipher and when a symbol matches it is counted, to give an example. N-gram size 5: "A1B1C" vs "A2B2C", 3 symbols match so the score for this comparison is 6, 3*(3-1). All n-grams are compared and the scores are summed. Here follow the results:

5-gram comparison for the 408 and 340 in a 17 by 20 grid (do transposition, undo transposition):

408:

Horizontals average: 854, 854
Verticals average: 453, 317
Diagonals 1 average: 376, 409
Diagonals 2 average: 395, 366

340:

Horizontals average: 537, 537
Verticals average: 387, 546
Diagonals 1 average: 423, 496
Diagonals 2 average: 411, 427
Bigram 19 scheme: 630
Bigram 15 scheme: 664

The new measurement is in favor of the scheme, and also when comparing other n-gram sizes.

AZdecrypt

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 4:54 pm
Jarlve
(@jarlve)
Posts: 2547
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

Another something in favor of the scheme, after expanding all symbols with a count of 10 or higher (7 symbols, 87 occurrences) the peaks are still there.

AZdecrypt

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 5:53 pm
smokie treats
(@smokie-treats)
Posts: 1626
Noble Member
 

True. But I am saying that these diagonal rows are words that have more than one English language high frequency bigram in them, or ends of some words abutting beginnings of other words where the ends and beginnings are English language high frequency bigrams.

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 5:57 pm
doranchak
(@doranchak)
Posts: 2614
Member Admin
 

What does that mean, "expanding all symbols"?

http://zodiackillerciphers.com

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 5:57 pm
Jarlve
(@jarlve)
Posts: 2547
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

What does that mean, "expanding all symbols"?

Assign a new unique symbol to every occurrence. So I introduced (87 minus 7) new symbols. It was the simplest option to show that the scheme cannot be attributed to some of the strange properties of the more frequent symbols, the whole cipher is in on it so to say.

AZdecrypt

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 6:36 pm
doranchak
(@doranchak)
Posts: 2614
Member Admin
 

Ah, I understand now. Thanks. That’s very interesting.

Thanks, all, for all the excellent work you’re all doing to pursue this! I have to again say how great it is for scientifically-minded folks to be actively focused on the 340 for a change. ;)

http://zodiackillerciphers.com

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 6:50 pm
smokie treats
(@smokie-treats)
Posts: 1626
Noble Member
 

5-gram comparison for the 408 and 340 in a 17 by 20 grid (do transposition, undo transposition):

408:

Horizontals average: 854, 854
Verticals average: 453, 317
Diagonals 1 average: 376, 409
Diagonals 2 average: 395, 366

340:

Horizontals average: 537, 537
Verticals average: 387, 546
Diagonals 1 average: 423, 496
Diagonals 2 average: 411, 427
Bigram 19 scheme: 630
Bigram 15 scheme: 664

The new measurement is in favor of the scheme, and also when comparing other n-gram sizes.

That is really cool. The score is lower for the 340 bigram 15 and 19 schemes as opposed to the 408 horizontals average, but that can probably be attributed to 63 symbols versus 54 symbols.

Do you mind scoring smokie9 if you get the chance. That may be a close interpretation of the 340, I believe.

I started a tracing map for "candy cane" 17×19 but yeah, it’s exactly the same as the tracing map for vertical 17×19. Last night I was really tired, and not sure where to go next.

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 10:48 pm
(@mr-lowe)
Posts: 1197
Noble Member
 

Looking at the chart repeats does the top half have a different structure to the bottom half ..that is they are two spaces apart in a row shift and one in a column shift where as in the bottom half they are only one row apart in column or row shift. Maybe he wrote the code out in two halves used a double shift for the top and a single shift for the bottom half.

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 10:49 pm
smokie treats
(@smokie-treats)
Posts: 1626
Noble Member
 

Mr. Lowe, I think that you are looking at the blue bordered cells on the left that are diagonally next to each other. Look at them as if they are all period 19 bigrams that line up in diagonal rows sloping downward from left to right. The blue bordered cells that are next to each other are those cells in two contiguous rows.

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 11:00 pm
doranchak
(@doranchak)
Posts: 2614
Member Admin
 

This is gonna sound nutty, but…

Remember the "prime phobia" phenomenon?

Only one "+" and only "B" (the two most common symbols in the 340) fall on prime positions, which is strongly against expectations.

When I created that slide for my talk, I noticed that many of the prime positions seem to follow roughly diagonal paths. This reminded me of the Ulam spiral, which is a way to see that many prime numbers follow diagonals when written in a rectangular spiral pattern, like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam_spiral

It’d be really strange if this turned out to have some connection to a transposition scheme that makes common symbols tend to avoid roughly diagonal lines.

Yes, I already said it sounded nutty. :lol:

http://zodiackillerciphers.com

 
Posted : November 6, 2015 11:08 pm
doranchak
(@doranchak)
Posts: 2614
Member Admin
 

OK, so I took the 340, flipped it horizontally, then applied the period 15 scheme to produce a new ciphertext, which I confirmed has the 40 bigram repeats. Then I saw this interesting pattern:

And here’s another interesting one: A partial pivot!

Can someone confirm that my "untransposed" version of the flipped 340 is correct:

dEB+*5k.L(MVE5FV5
2c+ztZ1*HBpzOUNyB
O+l#2E.B)+kN^D(+4
(8KjROp+8zF*K<SBK
2H+M8|CV@K<Ut*5cZ
G|TC7z|<z2p+l2_cF
KUcy5C^W(cFHl%WO&
Dp+fZ+B.;+G1BCOO|
G)pclddG+4dl5||.U
qLcW<Sk.#KSMF;+B<
MF<Sf9pl/C|DpOGp+
2|5J+JYM(+lXz6PYA
TfN:^j*Xz6-z/JNbV
M)R)WkPYLR/9^%OF7
TB29^4OFT-+M>#Z3P
>L#2b^D4ct+B31c_8
LKJy7t-cYAy-RR+4>
f|p+dpVW)+k_Rq#2p
b&R6N:(+H*;>R(UVF
Fz9G++|TB4-y.LWBO

http://zodiackillerciphers.com

 
Posted : November 7, 2015 1:19 am
doranchak
(@doranchak)
Posts: 2614
Member Admin
 

The pattern from the period 15 scheme shows up again the period 19 scheme (unless I messed it up somehow):

Why would it appear again the same way? Is it just the normal geometrical relationship between the period 15 scheme and the period 19 scheme? Or did I mess up my untransposition?

H+M8|CV@K+l#2E.B)
>R(UVFFz9z/JNbVM)
|DpOGp+2|<Ut*5cZG
+kN^D(+4(G++|TB4-
R)WkPYLR/5J+JYM(+
|TC7z|<z28KjROp+8
y.LWBOLKJ9^%OF7TB
lXz6PYAG)p+l2_cFK
zF*K<SBKdy7t-cYAy
29^4OFT-+pclddG+4
Ucy5C^W(cEB+*5k.L
-RR+4>f|pM>#Z3P>L
dl5||.UqLFHl%WO&D
(MVE5FV52+dpVW)+k
#2b^D4ct+cW<Sk.#K
p+fZ+B.;+c+ztZ1*H
_Rq#2pb&RB31c_8Tf
SMF;+B<MFG1BCOO|2
BpzOUNyBO6N:(+H*;
N:^j*Xz6-<Sf9pl/C

Here’s another pattern, a reflection that doesn’t advance to the next row:

And another symmetrical repeating fragment:

Might just be noise but I thought I’d point them out.

http://zodiackillerciphers.com

 
Posted : November 7, 2015 1:44 am
smokie treats
(@smokie-treats)
Posts: 1626
Noble Member
 

Doranchak, I will have to look into the prime phobia phenomenon, which I did not know of. I think that it may be a clue about the key and wonder about how statistically significant it is. I think that with 63 symbols packed into a 340 symbol message there are going to be a lot of interesting patterns with practice messages. The + and the B are on my list for being polyalphabetic since they do not appear to be cyclic. They are my symbols 19 and 20.

Here are the diagonals for smokie9, which is my interpretation of the 340 but with only two polyalphabetic symbols. Just as with before, the shaded cells are those with symbols that are in period 19 bigram repeats. A lot of them line up in diagonal groups. Two images shown for clarity.

I honestly don’t know what to do next. Jarlve you have been working really hard on this subject, and if you need anything that I am capable of let me know. I have to gather some thoughts together.

EDIT: Jarlve, you have been working very hard on this and I wonder if you need to rest for a while. If you feel that way, let me know. I may need a little rest. I have some thoughts about some of this that I need to work on.

 
Posted : November 7, 2015 5:10 am
Jarlve
(@jarlve)
Posts: 2547
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

Do you mind scoring smokie9 if you get the chance. That may be a close interpretation of the 340, I believe.

Averages for smokie9, 5-grams (do, undo):
Horizontals: 572, 572
Verticals: 609, 502
Diagonals 1: 499, 551
Diagonals 2: 481, 593
Bigram 19 scheme: 738
Bigram 15 scheme: 662

Purely by bigrams statistics the smokie9 is probably not a good match for the 340, smokie12 is the closest I could find.

And here is the same image for the 340 (I posted it earlier):

Can someone confirm that my "untransposed" version of the flipped 340 is correct:

It’s correct. It’s the same as 340m_b15n in the following file.

In my file, the prefix is the input string and the suffix is the output string separated by an underscore.

Prefix:

340n = 340 normal
340m = 340 mirrored
340f = 340 flipped (vertical)
340r = 340 reversed (same as mirrored+flipped)

Suffix (unwrapped interpretation of the bigram 15, 19 thing):
b19n = distance 19 normal
b15m = distance 15 mirrored
etc

results_sub_directory=340_test

cipher_information=340n_b19n
H+M8|CV@K+l#2E.B)
>EB+*5k.L-RR+4>f|
pMR(UVFFz9z/JNbVM
)|D>#Z3P>Ldl5||.U
qLFHpOGp+2|<Ut*5c
ZG+kNl%WO&D(MVE5F
V52+dp^D(+4(G++|T
B4-R)WkVW)+k#2b^D
4ct+cW<SPYLR/5J+J
YM(+|TC7zk.#Kp+fZ
+B.;+c+ztZ|<z28Kj
ROp+8y.LWBO1*H_Rq
#2pb&RB31c_8LKJ9^
%OF7TBlXz6PYATfSM
F;+B<MFG1BCOO|G)p
+l2_cFKzF*K<SBK2B
pzOUNyBO6N:(+H*;d
y7t-cYAy29^4OFT-+
N:^j*Xz6-<Sf9pl/C
pclddG+4Ucy5C^W(c

cipher_information=340n_b19m
)B.E2#l+K@VC|8M+H
|f>4+RR-L.k5*+BE>
MVbNJ/z9zFFVU(RMp
U.||5ldL>P3Z#>D|)
c5*tU<|2+pGOpHFLq
F5EVM(D&OW%lNk+GZ
T|++G(4+(D^pd+25V
D^b2#k+)WVkW)R-4B
J+J5/RLYPS<Wc+tc4
Zf+pK#.kz7CT|+(MY
jK82z<|Ztz+c+;.B+
qR_H*1OBWL.y8+pOR
^9JKL8_c13BR&bp2#
MSfTAYP6zXlBT7FO%
p)G|OOCB1GFM<B+;F
B2KBS<K*FzKFc_2l+
d;*H+(:N6OByNUOzp
+-TFO4^92yAYc-t7y
C/lp9fS<-6zX*j^:N
c(W^C5ycU4+Gddlcp

cipher_information=340n_b19f
pclddG+4Ucy5C^W(c
N:^j*Xz6-<Sf9pl/C
y7t-cYAy29^4OFT-+
pzOUNyBO6N:(+H*;d
+l2_cFKzF*K<SBK2B
F;+B<MFG1BCOO|G)p
%OF7TBlXz6PYATfSM
#2pb&RB31c_8LKJ9^
ROp+8y.LWBO1*H_Rq
+B.;+c+ztZ|<z28Kj
YM(+|TC7zk.#Kp+fZ
4ct+cW<SPYLR/5J+J
B4-R)WkVW)+k#2b^D
V52+dp^D(+4(G++|T
ZG+kNl%WO&D(MVE5F
qLFHpOGp+2|<Ut*5c
)|D>#Z3P>Ldl5||.U
pMR(UVFFz9z/JNbVM
>EB+*5k.L-RR+4>f|
H+M8|CV@K+l#2E.B)

cipher_information=340n_b19r
c(W^C5ycU4+Gddlcp
C/lp9fS<-6zX*j^:N
+-TFO4^92yAYc-t7y
d;*H+(:N6OByNUOzp
B2KBS<K*FzKFc_2l+
p)G|OOCB1GFM<B+;F
MSfTAYP6zXlBT7FO%
^9JKL8_c13BR&bp2#
qR_H*1OBWL.y8+pOR
jK82z<|Ztz+c+;.B+
Zf+pK#.kz7CT|+(MY
J+J5/RLYPS<Wc+tc4
D^b2#k+)WVkW)R-4B
T|++G(4+(D^pd+25V
F5EVM(D&OW%lNk+GZ
c5*tU<|2+pGOpHFLq
U.||5ldL>P3Z#>D|)
MVbNJ/z9zFFVU(RMp
|f>4+RR-L.k5*+BE>
)B.E2#l+K@VC|8M+H

cipher_information=340m_b15n
dEB+*5k.L(MVE5FV5
2c+ztZ2H+M8|CV@K<
Ut*5cZG|TC7zG)pcl
ddG+4dl5||.UqLcW<
STfN:^j*Xz6-z/JNb
VM)R)WkLKJy7t-cYA
y-RR+4>f|p+dp1*HB
pzOUNyBO+l#2E.B)+
kN|<z2p+l2_cFKUcy
5C^W(cFHk.#KSMF;+
B<MF<Sf9pl/C|DPYL
R/9^%OF7TB29^4OFT
-+MVW)+k_Rq#2pb&R
6N:(+H*;>^D(+4(8K
jROp+8zF*K<SBKl%W
O&Dp+fZ+B.;+G1BCO
O|pOGp+2|5J+JYM(+
lXz6PYA>#Z3P>L#2b
^D4ct+B31c_8R(UVF
Fz9G++|TB4-y.LWBO

cipher_information=340m_b15m
5VF5EVM(L.k5*+BEd
<K@VC|8M+H2Ztz+c2
lcp)Gz7CT|GZc5*tU
<WcLqU.||5ld4+Gdd
bNJ/z-6zX*j^:NfTS
AYc-t7yJKLkW)R)MV
BH*1pd+p|f>4+RR-y
+)B.E2#l+OByNUOzp
ycUKFc_2l+p2z<|Nk
+;FMSK#.kHFc(W^C5
LYPD|C/lp9fS<FM<B
TFO4^92BT7FO%^9/R
R&bp2#qR_k+)WVM+-
K8(4+(D^>;*H+(:N6
W%lKBS<K*Fz8+pORj
OCB1G+;.B+Zf+pD&O
+(MYJ+J5|2+pGOp|O
b2#L>P3Z#>AYP6zXl
FVU(R8_c13B+tc4D^
OBWL.y-4BT|++G9zF

cipher_information=340m_b15f
Fz9G++|TB4-y.LWBO
^D4ct+B31c_8R(UVF
lXz6PYA>#Z3P>L#2b
O|pOGp+2|5J+JYM(+
O&Dp+fZ+B.;+G1BCO
jROp+8zF*K<SBKl%W
6N:(+H*;>^D(+4(8K
-+MVW)+k_Rq#2pb&R
R/9^%OF7TB29^4OFT
B<MF<Sf9pl/C|DPYL
5C^W(cFHk.#KSMF;+
kN|<z2p+l2_cFKUcy
pzOUNyBO+l#2E.B)+
y-RR+4>f|p+dp1*HB
VM)R)WkLKJy7t-cYA
STfN:^j*Xz6-z/JNb
ddG+4dl5||.UqLcW<
Ut*5cZG|TC7zG)pcl
2c+ztZ2H+M8|CV@K<
dEB+*5k.L(MVE5FV5

cipher_information=340m_b15r
OBWL.y-4BT|++G9zF
FVU(R8_c13B+tc4D^
b2#L>P3Z#>AYP6zXl
+(MYJ+J5|2+pGOp|O
OCB1G+;.B+Zf+pD&O
W%lKBS<K*Fz8+pORj
K8(4+(D^>;*H+(:N6
R&bp2#qR_k+)WVM+-
TFO4^92BT7FO%^9/R
LYPD|C/lp9fS<FM<B
+;FMSK#.kHFc(W^C5
ycUKFc_2l+p2z<|Nk
+)B.E2#l+OByNUOzp
BH*1pd+p|f>4+RR-y
AYc-t7yJKLkW)R)MV
bNJ/z-6zX*j^:NfTS
<WcLqU.||5ld4+Gdd
lcp)Gz7CT|GZc5*tU
<K@VC|8M+H2Ztz+c2
5VF5EVM(L.k5*+BEd

cipher_information=340f_b15n
>;*H+(:N6R&bp2#qR
_k+)WVM+-TFO4^92B
T7FO%^9/RLYPD|C/l
p9fS<FM<B+;FMSK#.
kHFc(W^C5ycUKFc_2
l+p2z<|Nk+)B.E2#l
+OByNUOzpBH*1pd+p
|f>4+RR-yAYc-t7yJ
KLkW)R)MVbNJ/z-6z
X*j^:NfTS<WcLqU.|
|5ld4+Gddlcp)Gz7C
T|GZc5*tU<K@VC|8M
+H2Ztz+c25VF5EVM(
L.k5*+BEdOBWL.y-4
BT|++G9zFFVU(R8_c
13B+tc4D^b2#L>P3Z
#>AYP6zXl+(MYJ+J5
|2+pGOp|OOCB1G+;.
B+Zf+pD&OW%lKBS<K
*Fz8+pORjK8(4+(D^

cipher_information=340f_b15m
Rq#2pb&R6N:(+H*;>
B29^4OFT-+MVW)+k_
l/C|DPYLR/9^%OF7T
.#KSMF;+B<MF<Sf9p
2_cFKUcy5C^W(cFHk
l#2E.B)+kN|<z2p+l
p+dp1*HBpzOUNyBO+
Jy7t-cYAy-RR+4>f|
z6-z/JNbVM)R)WkLK
|.UqLcW<STfN:^j*X
C7zG)pclddG+4dl5|
M8|CV@K<Ut*5cZG|T
(MVE5FV52c+ztZ2H+
4-y.LWBOdEB+*5k.L
c_8R(UVFFz9G++|TB
Z3P>L#2b^D4ct+B31
5J+JYM(+lXz6PYA>#
.;+G1BCOO|pOGp+2|
K<SBKl%WO&Dp+fZ+B
^D(+4(8KjROp+8zF*

cipher_information=340f_b15f
*Fz8+pORjK8(4+(D^
B+Zf+pD&OW%lKBS<K
|2+pGOp|OOCB1G+;.
#>AYP6zXl+(MYJ+J5
13B+tc4D^b2#L>P3Z
BT|++G9zFFVU(R8_c
L.k5*+BEdOBWL.y-4
+H2Ztz+c25VF5EVM(
T|GZc5*tU<K@VC|8M
|5ld4+Gddlcp)Gz7C
X*j^:NfTS<WcLqU.|
KLkW)R)MVbNJ/z-6z
|f>4+RR-yAYc-t7yJ
+OByNUOzpBH*1pd+p
l+p2z<|Nk+)B.E2#l
kHFc(W^C5ycUKFc_2
p9fS<FM<B+;FMSK#.
T7FO%^9/RLYPD|C/l
_k+)WVM+-TFO4^92B
>;*H+(:N6R&bp2#qR

cipher_information=340f_b15r
^D(+4(8KjROp+8zF*
K<SBKl%WO&Dp+fZ+B
.;+G1BCOO|pOGp+2|
5J+JYM(+lXz6PYA>#
Z3P>L#2b^D4ct+B31
c_8R(UVFFz9G++|TB
4-y.LWBOdEB+*5k.L
(MVE5FV52c+ztZ2H+
M8|CV@K<Ut*5cZG|T
C7zG)pclddG+4dl5|
|.UqLcW<STfN:^j*X
z6-z/JNbVM)R)WkLK
Jy7t-cYAy-RR+4>f|
p+dp1*HBpzOUNyBO+
l#2E.B)+kN|<z2p+l
2_cFKUcy5C^W(cFHk
.#KSMF;+B<MF<Sf9p
l/C|DPYLR/9^%OF7T
B29^4OFT-+MVW)+k_
Rq#2pb&R6N:(+H*;>

cipher_information=340r_b19n
+-TFO4^92yAYc-t7y
d;*H+(:N6OByNUOzp
B2KBS<K*FzKFc_2l+
p)G|OOCB1GFM<B+;F
MSfTAYP6zXlBT7FO%
^9JKL8_c13BR&bp2#
qR_H*1OBWL.y8+pOR
jK82z<|Ztz+c+;.B+
Zf+pK#.kz7CT|+(MY
J+J5/RLYPS<Wc+tc4
D^b2#k+)WVkW)R-4B
T|++G(4+(D^pd+25V
F5EVM(D&OW%lNk+GZ
c5*tU<|2+pGOpHFLq
U.||5ldL>P3Z#>D|)
MVbNJ/z9zFFVU(RMp
|f>4+RR-L.k5*+BE>
)B.E2#l+K@VC|8M+H
c(W^C5ycU4+Gddlcp
C/lp9fS<-6zX*j^:N

cipher_information=340r_b19m
y7t-cYAy29^4OFT-+
pzOUNyBO6N:(+H*;d
+l2_cFKzF*K<SBK2B
F;+B<MFG1BCOO|G)p
%OF7TBlXz6PYATfSM
#2pb&RB31c_8LKJ9^
ROp+8y.LWBO1*H_Rq
+B.;+c+ztZ|<z28Kj
YM(+|TC7zk.#Kp+fZ
4ct+cW<SPYLR/5J+J
B4-R)WkVW)+k#2b^D
V52+dp^D(+4(G++|T
ZG+kNl%WO&D(MVE5F
qLFHpOGp+2|<Ut*5c
)|D>#Z3P>Ldl5||.U
pMR(UVFFz9z/JNbVM
>EB+*5k.L-RR+4>f|
H+M8|CV@K+l#2E.B)
pclddG+4Ucy5C^W(c
N:^j*Xz6-<Sf9pl/C

cipher_information=340r_b19f
C/lp9fS<-6zX*j^:N
c(W^C5ycU4+Gddlcp
)B.E2#l+K@VC|8M+H
|f>4+RR-L.k5*+BE>
MVbNJ/z9zFFVU(RMp
U.||5ldL>P3Z#>D|)
c5*tU<|2+pGOpHFLq
F5EVM(D&OW%lNk+GZ
T|++G(4+(D^pd+25V
D^b2#k+)WVkW)R-4B
J+J5/RLYPS<Wc+tc4
Zf+pK#.kz7CT|+(MY
jK82z<|Ztz+c+;.B+
qR_H*1OBWL.y8+pOR
^9JKL8_c13BR&bp2#
MSfTAYP6zXlBT7FO%
p)G|OOCB1GFM<B+;F
B2KBS<K*FzKFc_2l+
d;*H+(:N6OByNUOzp
+-TFO4^92yAYc-t7y

cipher_information=340r_b19r
N:^j*Xz6-<Sf9pl/C
pclddG+4Ucy5C^W(c
H+M8|CV@K+l#2E.B)
>EB+*5k.L-RR+4>f|
pMR(UVFFz9z/JNbVM
)|D>#Z3P>Ldl5||.U
qLFHpOGp+2|<Ut*5c
ZG+kNl%WO&D(MVE5F
V52+dp^D(+4(G++|T
B4-R)WkVW)+k#2b^D
4ct+cW<SPYLR/5J+J
YM(+|TC7zk.#Kp+fZ
+B.;+c+ztZ|<z28Kj
ROp+8y.LWBO1*H_Rq
#2pb&RB31c_8LKJ9^
%OF7TBlXz6PYATfSM
F;+B<MFG1BCOO|G)p
+l2_cFKzF*K<SBK2B
pzOUNyBO6N:(+H*;d
y7t-cYAy29^4OFT-+

Why would it appear again the same way? Is it just the normal geometrical relationship between the period 15 scheme and the period 19 scheme? Or did I mess up my untransposition?

I can’t verify this untransposition. It starts the same as 340n_b19n but is misaligned from there.

When I created that slide for my talk, I noticed that many of the prime positions seem to follow roughly diagonal paths. This reminded me of the Ulam spiral, which is a way to see that many prime numbers follow diagonals when written in a rectangular spiral pattern, like this:

I don’t consider it nutty. :)

Some 7 years ago I became interested in the prime numbers and that sparked most of my programming work. I managed to re-invent Ulam’s spiral and posted my "discovery" on a forum only to make a fool of myself. So I spent about 2 years with the prime numbers (on my terms) and had at one point a program that was able to factorize large semi-primes up to 50 digits using mainly Fermat’s little theorem. That being said I’m certainly no authority on prime numbers but I have a very good understanding of the problem (eternal geometrization) and what to expect.

When displaying prime numbers in a grid, they will mainly follow straight lines down when the horizontal dimension is an even number (modulo 6) and diagonal lines (patterns) for uneven numbers. Ulam’s spiral is very good way to visualize the prime numbers and I actually derived the idea from Fermat’s little theorem (square numbers).

Yesterday, the thought entered my head that perhaps these prime devoid symbols signify overlapping of 2 periods or similar (example 14, 15). That the scheme he used at one point started to overlap on already filled squares and that instead of moving to another square he *overlapped* and created some symbols especially for this. I guess that when 2 periods overlap, these positions will very likely not be prime.

I honestly don’t know what to do next. Jarlve you have been working really hard on this subject, and if you need anything that I am capable of let me know. I have to gather some thoughts together.

EDIT: Jarlve, you have been working very hard on this and I wonder if you need to rest for a while. If you feel that way, let me know. I may need a little rest. I have some thoughts about some of this that I need to work on.

It’s Blizzcon so I will be less active for a couple of days (I have a virtual ticket).

I would like you to look into something if you feel like. In this image ( ) there is a comparison of 340 bigrams. You can see that there is a peak at 15 (green), 19 (red) and 29 (green). In the smokie12, a similar thing is observed. That is, the double of the peak period is not at its expected period. In a perfectly aligned scheme that peaks at 15, there will also likely be a smaller peak at 30, just because that’s the double of the peak period. In the 340 it can be seen at 29 instead of 30 and the same thing can be seen with the smokie12 (look for the first image in this post). This is actual evidence that some kind of misalignment is going on in the 340. What I’d like you to do is an in-depth comparison of period 15 versus 29 and see what you can find out.

AZdecrypt

 
Posted : November 7, 2015 12:22 pm
doranchak
(@doranchak)
Posts: 2614
Member Admin
 

Doranchak, I will have to look into the prime phobia phenomenon, which I did not know of. I think that it may be a clue about the key and wonder about how statistically significant it is. I think that with 63 symbols packed into a 340 symbol message there are going to be a lot of interesting patterns with practice messages. The + and the B are on my list for being polyalphabetic since they do not appear to be cyclic. They are my symbols 19 and 20.

Shuffle experiments show that + will fall only on 0 or 1 prime positions in 3% of shuffles. In 0.7% of shuffles, + and B each fall on 0 or 1 prime positions. So, I can’t easily dismiss the phenomenon as coincidence. More info here: http://www.zodiackillerciphers.com/?p=319

http://zodiackillerciphers.com

 
Posted : November 7, 2015 2:18 pm
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