This was a period 19 ..I have separated the odds and evens to put the bigrams together..
But I think you can read it odds evens after the column 1 shift. That puts the bigrams together..
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Jarlve, I asked another question above. I am waiting in the starting blocks to start the new message.
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Now if you column shift all the evens up one the even words all come into line.. Odds and evens..
Jarlve, I asked another question above. I am waiting in the starting blocks to start the new message.
A new message please. Thanks.
O.k. I will have smokie17 ready for you within an hour or two.
EDIT: Here is smokie17, with 55 individual strings of period 19 diagonal rows randomly placed and varying in length. There are 63 symbols with somewhat inefficient diffusion but all homophonic.
I learned something very quickly making the message, however. I could only get 52 period 19 bigrams with matches (probably about 25 repeats), and I think that is because there is no continuation of rows from column 17 to column 2. I think that maybe we should also try to eliminate starting positions 18, 20, 22 . . . 54, because they are continuations of other rows.
Nevertheless, here is the message. I guess if you can solve this, then you can solve any period 19 transposition scheme without knowing what the scheme is.
16 8 18 35 11 9 35 4 32 3 5 22 14 17 26 23 6
46 36 12 54 31 40 28 59 27 39 63 55 47 18 42 1 24
40 33 19 38 48 14 61 5 4 50 59 36 58 34 8 31 17
51 52 50 44 20 39 1 13 57 11 62 58 5 16 24 15 48
33 9 60 61 5 32 52 51 27 28 62 11 47 37 38 57 35
33 56 9 17 44 1 16 54 4 63 32 2 25 55 53 48 16
27 3 7 61 29 28 39 52 28 18 58 40 17 41 39 8 48
48 31 51 19 11 13 59 24 15 33 22 58 26 31 12 18 44
42 14 36 5 17 35 55 62 34 57 52 30 8 54 1 28 24
60 9 44 6 37 45 40 29 19 63 48 59 41 14 32 36 16
22 46 13 35 21 31 61 19 38 51 53 49 47 19 54 4 46
18 26 50 5 40 7 28 28 63 42 28 13 42 27 5 34 30
40 49 31 1 24 2 14 18 39 11 9 28 58 48 31 36 61
37 58 50 55 5 33 52 28 27 19 57 11 35 4 39 22 9
48 40 44 58 61 27 43 33 48 52 14 47 36 42 7 8 51
28 48 47 31 62 41 54 60 59 61 24 32 36 5 11 9 34
33 53 27 50 25 28 16 63 47 8 31 4 38 48 12 17 52
61 39 24 19 14 32 23 22 51 11 33 5 44 12 46 21 62
1 9 28 15 3 57 21 53 24 8 13 32 48 35 59 43 8
27 61 42 54 52 44 10 5 28 12 63 1 45 40 58 51 6
I wonder if there is a way to use math to connect the strings.
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Thanks allot. You are right about the bigrams.
Some early results, ran a period 1 to 54 on the lines with smokie17 and 340 normally and reversed. AZdecrypt with 30 random restarts @ 1.000.000 iterations per cipher using Practical Cryptography 5-grams.
For the smokie17:
Average normal: 20812
Average reversed: 20395
Best return from normal:
Period: 17 Score: 21194 Ioc: 693 M: 185 C: 340 S: 63 carsinthesttodoab ianicouldshancebe lievawholaintsnaw holeorchenathenew hichalledbydownle allgodtheythatcwt hisasclunggodsher iesheaneoftorthen slesforclastresee ssunlitinsorgetin gdamainitrdsanfld loomwhathewhardte rnforsitewestiona thsmedintressiehi mbledismeherowedh edovertelloheamen ardrmofethefitsao chellwalofthnoteb utwavesfallscanbe adinboardtoseneel 1HND<4)0LbX)hghHI ciAY$?G.Z(>Q5$@L .V8;Qf>7_/VAW(AH" !7.87N$-[&Q)!@5L" -V$>Q__[ZIPghf&.[ Q._^hZW0@Pe0/e1"W 0<b/DU.#A^2'gb-@K <@3-8i&L7Ce?M)![A 3_8(R'MU_i6eM83@[ ((#4dV)V4(7KF[Xc4 2gH*/c5<X,ZDH5C_` d'?af0i)0L"-QKge@ N5R?K6<X8"83]Y74i e!(*8g<&)NL(D<8!V aIdLZc3a80@,?fLZ- Lgh;LK)@dd'-8H*[4 iK`Ma?C@W0[Cc]D/h 10Lddfi_7RT-AhXL #Wf/;LDCHd.DU/5I8 QgV&I7iK`W?3@&[L.
For the Zodiac 340:
Average normal: 20285
Average reversed: 20317
Referencing from the smokie17 returns I would expect higher returns from the 340 if it is anything like the smokie17, also difference between normal and reversed is very small. It seems likely that something more/different is going on for the 340.
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You found a few of the words and bits and pieces of the message. There are four words together with only one spelling error. I am impressed.
EDIT: I don’t think that you should give up on this idea on grounds of score alone. Score doesn’t tell us everything. The presence of five and six letter words, and especially multiple occurrences of the same five or six letter word.
Given that it is difficult to use the 55 fragment scheme and get as many period 19 repeats as the 340, what about 19 fragments?
Do you want me to make a message with 19 randomly placed fragments? It would probably be a lot easier to find the correct fragment order if there were only 19. Maybe we could have this baby solved in no time.
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I have tried 19 fragments before, it is not a problem. I’m running through allot of randomizations now for the smokie17 to see what comes out.
Score: 21421 Ioc: 665 M: 185 C: 340 S: 63 iiasplunglaintsnu eupenandmethautha tspairindintosout icabelievanursint heagreegrionssunl itistthehimtownan dtogandsurfawsint ressintalloresove rnonebutcomposhel lwanaspainsonthet racomofagosiranin starrshadowedrath specalledturteasi ntopeningsucoulds carlastmegaeledig methefirsatharetr icconsinetwavesfu lllockleallgodtho leorcraneoftomeel thenglesldloomwha <b/DU.#A^_/VAW(AH 8H*[4iK`M[W0@Pe0/ e1*/c5<X,bX)hghHI c$@L.V8;iAHND<4) 0L@3-883]Y74((#4d V)Y1"W08!VaIhf&iK `W?3@&ZDH5CQfg<&) NL(D<K)@dd'-Lgh;L -AhXL#WR'MUh10Ld dfi&QDU/V4(7K)0L" -Q>7a?C@2'gb-@K<K ge@N5g0@,?fLZ-ie! (*8>Q__[ZIP5I8QgV &I7F[Xc42gH$?G.Z( >Q5_i6eM83@[dLZc3 a8W0[Cc]D/)!@5L"- V$R?K6<X8"f/;LDCH d._7RT.[Q._^hZ"!7 .87N$-i&L7Ce?M[L. )
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Back to the row shuffle analysis.
I made four messages to compare with the 340.
Smokie16a is not a transposition cipher. I had to use only 35 symbols to get 77 period 19 bigrams with matches. Smokie16b-d increases the number of symbols in steps, with similar counts for period 19 matches.
I can paste the messages so that you can copy them if you want.
Here are the row shuffle results. Again, I shuffled each row 30 times for each of three trials (with more my spreadsheet would take a really long time). The numbers in the boxes show how the original row arrangement ranks as compared to the 30 shuffles with br = period 19 matches and scr = total score. The yellow shaded cells are averages of the three trials.
For example, if the number in the box is a 1, then the original arrangement has more period 19 matches or has a higher total score as compared to the 30 shuffles. If the number is a 2, then one of the random shuffles resulted in more period 19 matches or had a higher score.
Smokie16a (not a transposition cipher): Random shuffles always resulted in higher values ( red ) as compared to the original arrangement.
Smokie16b: The spreadsheet correctly found row 20 ( green ) as the untransposed portion of the message as shown by the higher values. However, because there were only 45 symbols, the values in many of the rows are higher that they are with smokie16c.
Smokie16c: With 59 symbols, there were very few shuffles resulting in higher values. And with more symbols, the values were lower than with smokie16b.
Smokie16d: With 63 symbols, the values were still low, but a bit higher than with smokie16c in some cases. But the spreadsheet correctly found row 3 ( green ) as the gibberish row.
340: The values are more comparable with smokie16d. Rows 3 and 18 ( orange ) have high values, suggesting that they may be gibberish rows. But compare with smokie16b row 14 ( pink ), which is not a gibberish row, and smokie 16c row 20 ( green ), which is a gibberish row. The values are comparable.
Also, my prior row shuffling of row 18 did not show such high values. I may have made a mistake when changing cell values between trials in the original experiment. I am not sure what happened.
Difficult to say exactly, but I would vote that the 340 is a transposition cipher based on the values as compares to smokie16b-d, and that row 3 or row 18 in the 340 are possible gibberish. That would equal 17 extra symbols that could probably totally throw off any attempts at un-transposing the message.
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Hi Jarlve can you run odds then evens separately through a solver of Doranchaks below period 19. this has not been done to my knowledge I have a good feeling about it.
And thanks for looking into my theory, and being positive, jarlve doranchak and smokie.. I don’t want to hijack your good work, so let me know when it’s time to move on..
with period 19:
H+M8|CV@K+l#2E.B)
>EB+*5k.L-RR+4>f|
pMR(UVFFz9z/JNbVM
)|D>#Z3P>Ldl5||.U
qLFHpOGp+2|<Ut*5c
ZG+kNl%WO&D(MVE5F
V52+dp^D(+4(G++|T
B4-R)WkVW)+k#2b^D
4ct+cW<SPYLR/5J+J
YM(+|TC7zk.#Kp+fZ
+B.;+c+ztZ|<z28Kj
ROp+8y.LWBO1*H_Rq
#2pb&RB31c_8LKJ9^
%OF7TBlXz6PYATfSM
F;+B<MFG1BCOO|G)p
+l2_cFKzF*K<SBK2B
pzOUNyBO6N:(+H*;d
y7t-cYAy29^4OFT-+
N:^j*Xz6-<Sf9pl/C
pclddG+4Ucy5C^W(c
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Like this, right?EDIT: Do you want a message that you are familiar with, or one that is new? Maybe starting with one you are familiar with would be better so that you can more easily see if your efforts are working.
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Not sure why your first line the end of that run row 8 column 16 comes back out on top, my set up that correlates correctly with doranchacs period 19 should bring that line out at the (-) sign at row 10 column 1. why is yours different? and does it matter, I think it would change most of it but you would get some words through the middle.
Edit :this was from your sample graph smokie but it did not come out in this post
Not sure why your first line the end of that run row 8 column 16 comes back out on top, my set up that correlates correctly with doranchacs period 19 should bring that line out at the (-) sign at row 10 column 1. why is yours different? and does it matter, I think it would change most of it but you would get some words through the middle. Edit :this was from your sample graph smokie but it did not come out in this post
Mr. Lowe, I don’t know what sample graph you are talking about. I noticed that you mentioned getting a laptop in an above post. I have a Lenovo and I love it. It only cost me a few hundred dollars and I have gotten many good quality entertainment hours for it. You should get yourself one as a Christmas present for yourself.
This one smokie And great idea. We do a $ 200 Chris Kringle.. I’ll put it on my wish list.. Or just buy one…hoho
An update on my progress: Here is a spreadsheet summarizing results of over a thousand transpositions that produced interesting results:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … sp=sharing
Hover over the column headings for explanations.
Each transposition was scored in azdecrypt (restarts 30, iterations 1,000,000). There are two scores per transposition: one for the cipher in the forward direction, and one for the cipher in reverse.
Some quick observations:
1) The highest number of bigram repeats found was 53
2) The operations "PeriodColumn(2) Period(18)" are often involved in transpositions that result in high bigram repeats. By themselves, they produce 44 bigram repeats. The various Swap and SwapLinear operations bump the numbers up further. "Swap" exchanges two equal sized rectangular regions of the ciphertext. "SwapLinear" exchanges two equal sized linear regions of the ciphertext.
3) The highest azdecrypt score was 20,900. The corresponding cipher’s transpositions were: PeriodColumn(2) Period(18) Swap(202, 104, 8, 1). This scheme results in 48 bigram repeats.
4) There seems to be some correlation between azdecrypt score and the number of bigram repeats. Consider this plot:
Each point represents the best azdecrypt score for a given transposition scheme. The x-axis represents the number of bigram repeats for that scheme. The y-axis represents the azdecrypt score. The plot shows a lot of variance, but notice how the bottom edge of the cluster drifts upwards as the number of bigrams increases.
5) I noticed a strong response in L=2 homophone cycles with the following transposition scheme: PeriodColumn(2) Swap(3, 156, 3, 3)
The scheme applies period 2 to the columns, then swaps 3×3 regions at positions 3 and 156 (each position is drawn from the range [0,339]). Here’s more detail on what it looks like:
Original 340: HER>pl^VPk|1LTG2d Np+B(#O%DWY.<*Kf) By:cM+UZGW()L#zHJ Spp7^l8*V3pO++RK2 _9M+ztjd|5FP+&4k/ p8R^FlO-*dCkF>2D( #5+Kq%;2UcXGV.zL| (G2Jfj#O+_NYz+@L9 d<M+b+ZR2FBcyA64K -zlUV+^J+Op7<FBy- U+R/5tE|DYBpbTMKO 2<clRJ|*5T4M.+&BF z69Sy#+N|5FBc(;8R lGFN^f524b.cV4t++ yBX1*:49CE>VUZ5-+ |c.3zBK(Op^.fMqG2 RcT+L16C<+FlWB|)L ++)WCzWcPOSHT/()p |FkdW<7tB_YOB*-Cc >MDHNpkSzZO8A|K;+ After applying column period 2: HRp^P|LGdE>lVk1T2 N+(ODY<K)pB#%W.*f B:MUG(LzJyc+ZW)#H Sp^8Vp+R2p7l*3O+K _Mzj|F+4/9+td5P&k pRFO*CF2(8^l-dk>D #+q;UXVz|5K%2cG.L (2f#+Nz@9GJjO_Y+L dMbZ2By6K<++RFcA4 -lV^+p<B-zU+JO7Fy UR5EDBbMO+/t|YpTK 2cR|54.&F<lJ*TM+B z9y+|Fc;R6S#N5B(8 lF^54.Vt+GNf2bc4+ yX*4C>U5+B1:9EVZ- |.zKO^fq2c3B(p.MG RTL6<FW|Lc+1C+lB) +)CWPST(p+WzcOH/) |kW7BYB-cFd<t_O*C >DNkzOAK+MHpSZ8|; Operation: Swap(3, 156, 3, 3) First box: ^P| ODY UG( Second box: ^+p EDB |54 Both boxes shown in grid: HRp___LGdE>lVk1T2 N+(___<K)pB#%W.*f B:M___LzJyc+ZW)#H Sp^8Vp+R2p7l*3O+K _Mzj|F+4/9+td5P&k pRFO*CF2(8^l-dk>D #+q;UXVz|5K%2cG.L (2f#+Nz@9GJjO_Y+L dMbZ2By6K<++RFcA4 -lV===<B-zU+JO7Fy UR5===bMO+/t|YpTK 2cR===.&F<lJ*TM+B z9y+|Fc;R6S#N5B(8 lF^54.Vt+GNf2bc4+ yX*4C>U5+B1:9EVZ- |.zKO^fq2c3B(p.MG RTL6<FW|Lc+1C+lB) +)CWPST(p+WzcOH/) |kW7BYB-cFd<t_O*C >DNkzOAK+MHpSZ8|; Final result: HRp^+pLGdE>lVk1T2 N+(EDB<K)pB#%W.*f B:M|54LzJyc+ZW)#H Sp^8Vp+R2p7l*3O+K _Mzj|F+4/9+td5P&k pRFO*CF2(8^l-dk>D #+q;UXVz|5K%2cG.L (2f#+Nz@9GJjO_Y+L dMbZ2By6K<++RFcA4 -lV^P|<B-zU+JO7Fy UR5ODYbMO+/t|YpTK 2cRUG(.&F<lJ*TM+B z9y+|Fc;R6S#N5B(8 lF^54.Vt+GNf2bc4+ yX*4C>U5+B1:9EVZ- |.zKO^fq2c3B(p.MG RTL6<FW|Lc+1C+lB) +)CWPST(p+WzcOH/) |kW7BYB-cFd<t_O*C >DNkzOAK+MHpSZ8|;
Notice how the two swapped 3×3 boxes are appearing in the same column (they are marked with underscores and equal signs). It’s interesting, because I didn’t guide the search to look for such alignments.
Here is a side-by-side comparison showing how the above operation improves the L=2 cycles:
http://i.imgur.com/sqqlYEk.png
It makes me very curious. The PeriodColumn(2) operation seems to be involved with improvements of bigram counts AND L=2 homophone cycles.
I’m going to continue to sample from the space of transpositions.
Jarlve, the highest azdecrypt score I found in my recent results was 20900. Do you think that is a significant bump from the average for 340-character cipher texts? I think the original 340 scores around 20300.
