These are all the results scoring over 20750: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5r0r … UNJaElLNGM
Small warning, it are over 50.000 ciphers your computer may become a bit unresponsive. After I uploaded the file my Google drive crashed…
I ran my word search on all 50,000+ plaintexts. Here’s what it found:
http://zodiackillerciphers.com/jarlve-scytale-words.txt
Results are grouped by word length. Example of the format:
WordLength RelativeFrequencyInEnglish Word MaxAZDecryptScore Occurrences 10 1600 APPROACHED 20815.73 1
1. What transposition testing has not been done (probably a much shorter list)?
Well, I don’t keep any long term lists. With the development of the manipulation solver finally I am getting some structure and order in the process. I do kinda know what I have run through my solver if I see it. I think that there are allot of "blind" spots that we have missed, typically not considering other orientations and cipher dimensions in the hypothesis.
2. What can explain not getting a solution? It seems like we are narrowing things down.
Transposition quirks and errors, polyalphabetic to some degree or different language on top of transposition. For now I will mainly stick with transposition for a while but may do some side projects here and there.
My current best bet at what the 340 is: columnar or diagonal transposition in any compatible set of dimensions with a different cipher length and/or transposition errors. In short something like the smokie9. You created a bunch of these ciphers and they are very hard to solve and can exist in many other forms. I would like to take another look at that starting as simple as possible. Let me know if you are up for it.
I ran my word search on all 50,000+ plaintexts. Here’s what it found:
Thanks doranchak.
Jarlve, I want to continue exploring transposition. I think that the period 19 repeats show that most likely:
1. Zodiac used a shape where the plaintext direction was parallel to two sides of the shape; and
2. He transcribed columns that were next to each other in a direction that was perpendicular to the two sides.
The parallelogram is, although perhaps not a solution, a good example. It is slightly different from diagonal transcription. See the orange shaded cells.
Here is the transposition scheme, with the plaintext of "I like killing" same cells shaded orange. Scroll down to see the whole scheme, step by step.
.
Here is the un-transposition scheme, step by step as you scroll down:
Now check out what happens when I un-transpose the 340 with the parallelogram scheme and make the result 18 x 19 to compare with scytale. Scytale is on the left, and the parallelogram scheme is on the right. Most of the repeats are the same, and I boxed with heavy black one example so that you could see the different arrangement. However, there are also some new repeats. See the heavy brown box, 27-62. There are only four count of symbol 27, and two count of symbol 62. A highly improbable result.
So that is a good example of what you were talking about.
Here is the 340 untransposed with the parallelogram scheme, if somebody wants to try to solve it.
1 2 20 3 21 38 4 22 39 45 5 23 15 5 19 6 24 26
23 52 25 7 25 21 19 53 21 15 8 26 33 19 10 22 16 61
9 27 13 3 54 50 41 19 41 10 28 22 31 5 19 32 39 19
20 11 29 40 16 44 31 49 3 23 5 19 12 30 1 46 3 57
22 16 5 61 52 3 13 31 41 47 7 24 23 51 43 14 20 6
59 14 32 42 37 51 58 19 20 29 37 51 15 12 20 15 33 5
19 6 16 46 36 51 31 40 51 30 31 29 16 20 5 40 23 38
18 34 20 23 63 18 35 21 19 1 17 34 43 48 55 36 27 62
34 16 47 7 53 23 51 14 55 18 35 7 49 30 59 40 63 55
29 42 32 47 5 6 54 56 5 36 6 17 17 15 19 53 38 36
34 50 56 7 26 21 36 19 37 44 11 56 8 60 31 19 6 22
16 2 28 20 33 4 19 30 50 10 28 13 55 3 3 19 53 4
32 11 5 37 8 51 51 40 47 40 54 41 18 61 8 37 33 11
25 9 4 13 17 6 50 11 11 28 38 57 13 51 1 16 11 29
38 48 30 50 36 39 15 19 10 18 21 37 8 2 50 51 8 50
16 19 17 5 19 19 11 14 20 53 55 3 33 26 10 7 25 53
36 48 19 36 26 29 42 27 37 21 19 11 14 56 43 40 28 58
19 36 19 40 48 39 44 34 28 13 26 20 23 20 45 12 36 46
44 40 63 9 27 62 56 23 23 11 42 20 31 30 58 19
The parallelogram is, although perhaps not a solution, a good example. It is slightly different from diagonal transcription. See the orange shaded cells.
It is exactly the same as diagonal transposition.
1 2 4 7 11 16 22 29 37 46 56 67 79 92 106 121 137 154 171 188 3 5 8 12 17 23 30 38 47 57 68 80 93 107 122 138 155 172 189 205 6 9 13 18 24 31 39 48 58 69 81 94 108 123 139 156 173 190 206 221 10 14 19 25 32 40 49 59 70 82 95 109 124 140 157 174 191 207 222 236 15 20 26 33 41 50 60 71 83 96 110 125 141 158 175 192 208 223 237 250 21 27 34 42 51 61 72 84 97 111 126 142 159 176 193 209 224 238 251 263 28 35 43 52 62 73 85 98 112 127 143 160 177 194 210 225 239 252 264 275 36 44 53 63 74 86 99 113 128 144 161 178 195 211 226 240 253 265 276 286 45 54 64 75 87 100 114 129 145 162 179 196 212 227 241 254 266 277 287 296 55 65 76 88 101 115 130 146 163 180 197 213 228 242 255 267 278 288 297 305 66 77 89 102 116 131 147 164 181 198 214 229 243 256 268 279 289 298 306 313 78 90 103 117 132 148 165 182 199 215 230 244 257 269 280 290 299 307 314 320 91 104 118 133 149 166 183 200 216 231 245 258 270 281 291 300 308 315 321 326 105 119 134 150 167 184 201 217 232 246 259 271 282 292 301 309 316 322 327 331 120 135 151 168 185 202 218 233 247 260 272 283 293 302 310 317 323 328 332 335 136 152 169 186 203 219 234 248 261 273 284 294 303 311 318 324 329 333 336 338 153 170 187 204 220 235 249 262 274 285 295 304 312 319 325 330 334 337 339 340
1. Zodiac used a shape where the plaintext direction was parallel to two sides of the shape; and
2. He transcribed columns that were next to each other in a direction that was perpendicular to the two sides.
Yes, there are good points to assume. Now let’s add some other points to the hypothesis.
3. He used (shapes) columnar or diagonal transposition with possible transposition errors in a set of dimensions compatible with producing period 19 bigram repeats.
4. The cipher thereafter was written out in a 17 by 20 grid possibly using some filler to fill up the last line.
If you agree on these added points, then what is the most important thing we need to figure out?
1. The most probable set of dimensions in which the columnar or diagonal transposition has been carried out. Or alternativly, the form of the shape, either a rectangle or a parallelogram.
2. The direction of the (un)transposition, there are 4 different ways of columnar transposition (corners) and there are 8 different ways of diagonal transposition, including untransposition these counts are doubled.
If you agree on these points also then I think the best next step is to list ALL the valid shapes/dimensions which produce period 19 bigrams and see if we can develop a technique to correlate the correct shape/dimensions and (un)transposition direction. That would be awesome.
5. The nulls used to fill in an incomplete rectangle could have been added before transcription, or after transcription.
6. The direction of inscription probably did not change; it was row by contiguous row or column by contiguous column. The direction of transcription probably did not change; it was row by contiguous row or column by contiguous column.
On point 5, the book I was reading discussed adding nulls before transcription so that the receiver of the message would be able to untranspose without error. It discussed adding high frequency plaintext instead of low frequency plaintext so that the nulls would be more difficult to identify. That doesn’t matter as much because we have homophonic substitution. But I guess my point is that this was a known technique and if you get any sentence fragments in your solutions that have extra letters in them, that could alert us to the positions of nulls used to fill an incomplete rectangle.
Smokie9 added the nulls after transcription. I suppose that nulls could have been added before transcription to complete an incomplete rectangle, and then another entire row of nulls could have been added to make 17 x 20.
I made a new spreadsheet last weekend that cross checks two periods and looks for matching symbols. I started with a period by period 19 comparison and got discouraged. I will finish that. I also started with a comparison of periods on basis of highest scoring repeats, but just count of repeats, wondering if the spike at period 39 is significant.
Still trying to figure out a scheme that causes high count of period 39 instead of period 38 repeats. Adding one or two random nulls could do it, but I want to figure out a simple scheme that can do it, if possible.
AZdecrypt: I am testing support for non-native cipher dimensions – dimensions that are not necessarily divisors of the cipher length. I have added this for the Diagonal and Rotate operations (Rotate is columnar transposition), also added a Blank operation.
The operation queue looks as follows in the test:
Min stack size: 3
Max stack size: 3
The above means that the solver will always pick 3 operations (if any valid combination is available).
Use any dimensions > 1
The above means that the operations that support non-native dimensions will pick a random set of dimensions.
Ratio, operation queue:
1, Blank
Diagonal(x,y,t,a) <— LOCKED
1, Flip(17,20)
1, Mirror(17,20)
The number in front is the ratio, it can be changed by using the "+" and "-" keys. A higher ratio means the solver will pick this operation more often. The 2nd operation, Diagonal, has been locked with the "l" key, then the operation shows a purple color to indicate this. This means that the solver will always pick this operation as the 2nd operation and also that it cannot be randomly picked as the 1st or 3rd, etc operation.
The Flip and Mirror have been argumented by me by pressing the appropriate argument key when hovering over the operation in the queue. So in this case, I pressed the "x" key and filled in 17, and then pressed the "y" key and filled in 20. This will override the "Use any dimensions > 1" setting.
The Blank, Flip and Mirror operations remain unlocked so the solver can randomly choose the order of these operations. But since the Diagonal operation is locked in the 2nd place and the settings "Min stack size, Max stack size" are at 3, the solver picks at random 2 of these 3 unlocked operations for the 1st and 3rd place.
So the diagonal transposition hypothesis can be explored also considering that the cipher was flipped or mirrored at any step in the process, as an example.
Anyway it found these 2 in under 10 minutes, highest scoring so far. I realize that doranchak’s transposition explorer has also found these. Diagonal transposition in a 14 by 25 grid and 16 by 22 grid, 41 bigrams each.
AZdecrypt 0.992 (Practical Cryptography 5-grams) Manipulation, Index of coincidence Manipulation operation(s): Mirror(17,20), Diagonal(14,25,1,5), Mirror(17,20) Score: 20804.50 Ioc: 0.07224536 Entropy: 3.917943 Chi-square: 43.44698 Characters: 340 Letters: 19 tualallndedaneted eoretwoaningcamet refrantermstatirs ttioareeratureoft hesitchcampdahall edintasspnseinonh ourstalstedincars hiswillsalandstgt herstooweartsthou tlrgongadchipsedo nfinstitlesarnsth ananareensowondra rtotopedingofding asparennowassmagh erandersmagiriren onoppitscorallymu saliecametoadirip ledatasadewintert hingsalldrieinsea ntsthingtoinctmwh Multiplicity: 0.1852941 Characters: 340 Symbols: 63 Sequential: 1582.14 Bigrams: 41 OCBKBS<>;*HM+-D|H -48_c13B+AYP6zX|O 5*Ztz+c25VFOBWL.y WcLqU.||5z7CT|GZc R-ykW)R)MVbNJ/zS< 2#l+OBypd+p|f>4+R ^C5ycUKFc_Nk+)B.E /lp9fS<FM<B+;Fc(W R_TFO4^92BT7FO%^C jK8(4+(:N6R&bp2#q +Zf+pD&OK*Fz8+pOR MYJ+J5|2+pG1G+;.B tc4D^b2#L>P3Z#l+( BEdBT|++G9zFFVU(R |8M+H25EVM(L.k5*+ 4+Gddlcp)GtU<K@VC yJKL-6zX*j^:NfTld <|NUOzpBH*1AYc-t7 RLYPFMSK#.k2l+p2z >OpW%l+(D^k+)WV9/ AZdecrypt 0.992 (Practical Cryptography 5-grams) Manipulation, Index of coincidence Manipulation operation(s): Flip(17,20), Diagonal(16,22,1,2), Blank Score: 20675.10 Ioc: 0.07053618 Entropy: 3.908299 Chi-square: 37.8972 Characters: 340 Letters: 18 roeddorssensonded topthestsingchasi thislrdidthishils oholdinunagainero usoonbeseconcerof theachelongmorend eediotetochsmithn ithaltantedfroemm arrestinlaruesinh esmontestheatfilt oflessicsaidrient hecdaneofalaginat onschanttouriedfr omthenhindarstsfp proupfiddleoecddh eitcompanomingare hatrchssharooralb araalatertoldinfr ienotororourchiso neacatingaidthema Multiplicity: 0.1852941 Characters: 340 Symbols: 63 Sequential: 1261.74 Bigrams: 41 >+MC|D(cFHB)+kNf| p+dpVM)R)Wk.UqLcW <S5cZG|TC7z5FV52c +ztZ|TB4-y.LWBO^D 4ct+B31c_8+JYM(+l Xz6PYAfZ+B.;+G1BC OO|KjROp+8zF*K<SB KRq#2pb&R6N:(+H*; 9^%OF7TB29^4OFT-S MF;+B<MF<Sf9pl/2p +l2_cFKUcy5C^WHBp zOUNyBO+l#2E.KJy7 t-cYAy-RR+4>TfN:^ j*Xz6-z/JNbG)pcld dG+4dl5||2H+M8|CV @K<Ut*dEB+*5k.L(M VER(UVFFz9G++>#Z3 P>L#2bpOGp+2|5Jl% WO&Dp+^D(+4(8VW)+ k_PYLR/k.#K|<z1*L
Okay smokie,
1. The inscription could exist in any set of 2 dimensions.
2. The transcription could exist in any set of 2 dimensions.
3. A contiguous inscription direction, normal, flipped, mirrored or reversed.
4. A contiguous transcription direction, any valid columnar or diagonal transposition (24 total).
5. Inscription nulls.
6. Transcription nulls.
7. A secondary transposition with a contiguous direction in any set of 2 dimensions, normal, flipped, mirrored or reversed.
What do you think?
Okay smokie,
1. The inscription could exist in any set of 2 dimensions.
2. The transcription could exist in any set of 2 dimensions.
3. A contiguous inscription direction, normal, flipped, mirrored or reversed.
4. A contiguous transcription direction, any valid columnar or diagonal transposition (24 total).
5. Inscription nulls.
6. Transcription nulls.
7. A secondary transposition with a contiguous direction in any set of 2 dimensions, normal, flipped, mirrored or reversed.What do you think?
I think that is perfect.
Great smokie!
If you want we could make a long term project out of it. It is quite a difficult hypothesis to fully explore so we must start very simple.
How about I make you 2 ciphers. One where you try to determine the transcription dimensions. And another where you try to determine if the transposition is columnar or diagonal. In both cases I will make all the other variables known.
What do you think?
That sounds good. Make them 17 x 20 though so I don’t have to remodel my spreadsheets. Sometimes you guys are way ahead of me and I take a long time to realize things. But I have been thinking about exactly what you are talking about. I think that you are trying to get me to realize the multitude of possibilities. At least this way somebody knows the answer to the puzzle. Just give me the first one for starters. I am thinking up an idea.
I saw some context in the second solve that you posted above.
roeddorssensonded
topthestsingchasi
thislrdidthishils
oholdinunagainero
usoonbeseconcerof
theachelongmorend
eediotetochsmithn
ithaltantedfroemm
arrestinlaruesinh
esmontestheatfilt
oflessicsaidrient
hecdaneofalaginat
onschanttouriedfr
omthenhindarstsfp
proupfiddleoecddh
eitcompanomingare
hatrchssharooralb
araalatertoldinfr
ienotororourchiso
neacatingaidthema
Inscription: normal.
Transcription: columnar.
No nulls and/or secondary transposition.
pr1_jarlve1.txt 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 2 15 12 16 17 9 18 19 20 10 21 1 22 23 24 25 20 26 13 27 4 28 29 30 31 13 32 3 6 33 34 35 36 28 20 37 25 38 28 39 10 40 11 15 7 41 17 6 42 29 21 19 29 22 43 27 1 38 39 37 44 45 15 23 7 33 34 26 30 5 46 20 37 28 7 4 44 33 47 12 8 11 14 48 44 13 3 23 49 38 10 35 24 25 1 17 21 1 40 6 45 38 16 7 32 38 11 46 17 30 15 36 37 39 26 32 20 28 43 43 34 17 5 37 26 41 32 8 4 48 10 9 3 2 21 3 47 42 39 19 9 2 4 5 34 14 1 18 16 10 1 38 25 36 47 44 20 38 49 49 42 23 29 42 21 16 33 31 45 39 22 27 46 50 11 17 40 24 39 13 28 15 7 23 16 36 30 19 6 49 13 12 41 45 37 18 3 8 2 5 42 46 22 8 21 19 27 43 19 33 10 19 5 24 26 35 1 1 9 25 32 39 30 10 40 13 13 49 23 45 16 33 26 46 13 14 34 43 10 12 44 15 47 46 38 25 6 7 41 48 40 47 19 37 11 18 1 32 48 14 8 17 10 49 6 35 36 21 22 3 27 18 24 36 23 1 13 39 15 19 27 29 38 45 41 35 33 11 34 32 46 2 30 11 31 17 33 20 25 31 16 24 31 12 31 20 26 48 10 12 49 9 35 31 44 14 43 37 45 14 47 34 22 15 40 12
I think that you are trying to get me to realize the multitude of possibilities.
Yes, but also genuinely interested at taking a fresh and all encompassing thorough look at the (your) hypothesis. I really think it is the most promising direction. I just tried to solve my own cipher and got a whole bunch of perfect solves in about 10 minutes. That’s the other aspect, finding out if my solver can actually get it.
Thanks for the message. The period 19 repeats are really just offset repeats at this point. They could be period 15, period 39 ( vertical transcription ) or period 41 ( vertical transcription ). Or some other period if transcription is diagonal.
I am going to work on my systems while I work on you message, so it may take a little time.
