That is the million dollar question. There is nice symmetry in the design of the 13-Symbol cipher, as there is when the alphabet is placed underneath it and the corresponding letters compared numerically.

Could you show us what you mean?

That is the million dollar question. There is nice symmetry in the design of the 13-Symbol cipher, as there is when the alphabet is placed underneath it and the corresponding letters compared numerically.

Could you show us what you mean?

A to A = 0, B to E = 3, C to N = 11, F to K = 5, H to M = 5, K to N = 3, A to L = 11.

That is the million dollar question. There is nice symmetry in the design of the 13-Symbol cipher, as there is when the alphabet is placed underneath it and the corresponding letters compared numerically.

Could you show us what you mean?

A to A = 0, B to E = 3, C to N = 11, F to K = 5, H to M = 5, K to N = 3, A to L = 11.

I like where you went with this, very interesting idea.

Before this thread gets out of hand, people should be aware that what was used was a form of "route cipher" (one-down, two-to-right) that just by coincidence, happens to partially match up with a scytale (rhymes with Italy) encoding.

The thing is, I am retired from this whole matter, and I just don’t have the time to put forth a long post explaining all the details of why.

So, just take it for whatever you think it’s worth. Someone with more time on their hands will probably explain it in more detail at some point.

You are trying to claim the 340 is a form of route transposition cipher. (A Skytale is a form of transposition cipher) However the route is too complex and convoluted to be a clear decryption method.
They managed to figure the pattern out once the key was applied and read the message. But the method lacks common sense for the receiving end.

Use common sense, what is more realistic to decipher:

A) Apply key, reverse shifts, decrypt skytale 9 turn.

or

B) Read diagonal down one, over two, down one, over two, down one, over two …. then read the lower corner, then the upper corner, then the next diagonal line over, down one, over two… and so on.

Who is going to apply this method and not mess it all up?

Use common sense, what is more realistic to decipher:

A) Apply key, reverse shifts, decrypt skytale 9 turn.

or

B) Read diagonal down one, over two, down one, over two, down one, over two …. then read the lower corner, then the upper corner, then the next diagonal line over, down one, over two… and so on.

Who is going to apply this method and not mess it all up?

Are you sure there’s not an option C)?

Use common sense, what is more realistic to decipher:

A) Apply key, reverse shifts, decrypt skytale 9 turn.

or

B) Read diagonal down one, over two, down one, over two, down one, over two …. then read the lower corner, then the upper corner, then the next diagonal line over, down one, over two… and so on.

Who is going to apply this method and not mess it all up?

Are you sure there’s not an option C)?

Option C) Find a better method that works for both encryption and decryption.

Remember this was 1969. Some guy had to come up with encryption using pen and paper. On the receiving end, the encryption method is also the decryption method.

Re: Homophonic substitution
Postby Mr lowe » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:17 pm

Ok smokie thanks.. Purposely making a scytale harder you could, when writing out your plain text lines On the scytale skip a row until you come back around ..basically odds and evens. That would mix it up more.. Also using two letters per space. Also starting with a row of junk and finishing with filler. Also maybe writing alternate lines out upside down gives you some letters like p as a d .. Writing it backwards..
Misalignment in the construction process as smokie pointed out Is the only way I can think of him mucking it up. It’s a pretty simple thing to do so I think if this is what he did it should be right.
Jarlvie. Making it in parts is very possible. A two or three part scytale cipher with different alignments .

Edit:Could the other z codes be scytale. Wrapped around a pencil. Still to short to break.

we discussed the scytale to death for a year or two back in 2016..he did all of this ..he made it in three parts and he misaligned and he made mistakes..

Mr lowe you are making yourself very suspicious now!

How old are you?

You also managed to fish up this thread: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=4805

Re: Homophonic substitution
Postby Mr lowe » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:17 pm

Ok smokie thanks.. Purposely making a scytale harder you could, when writing out your plain text lines On the scytale skip a row until you come back around ..basically odds and evens. That would mix it up more.. Also using two letters per space. Also starting with a row of junk and finishing with filler. Also maybe writing alternate lines out upside down gives you some letters like p as a d .. Writing it backwards..
Misalignment in the construction process as smokie pointed out Is the only way I can think of him mucking it up. It’s a pretty simple thing to do so I think if this is what he did it should be right.
Jarlvie. Making it in parts is very possible. A two or three part scytale cipher with different alignments .

Edit:Could the other z codes be scytale. Wrapped around a pencil. Still to short to break.

we discussed the scytale to death for a year or two back in 2016..he did all of this ..he made it in three parts and he misaligned and he made mistakes..

Mr lowe you are making yourself very suspicious now!

How old are you?

You also managed to fish up this thread: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=4805

Mr lowe you are making yourself very suspicious now!
Jarl
i suppose im old enough
Jarl would it worry you if i said i know all of your secrets.
dave oranchak, Sam Blake and Jarl Van Eycke, im still working on geoffs.. fact sam lives not far from me now..
jtkgsonuji

So if I understand the sequence of proposed events:

1. The American Cryptological Society (or whatever) bigwig states in the paper that Zodiac should send a cipher containing his name and quotes Edgar Allen Poe at him.
2. Zodiac creates and sends 2 new codes based on Poe’s code designs.
3. The Z13 name code is designed with a wheel that you would need to decipher it (?) which is presumably in his living room. (not sure about #3)

So, basically Zodiac took it as a challenge and then the next 2 codes are a middle finger – The message here is:. "You’re going to quote Poe at me? I know more about Poe than you do!"

Sorry, that’s pretty badass. That’s like, he dropped the mail and walked away from the mailbox in slow motion. And the taunt in it is a totally Z thing to do.

The Poe thing indicates something really important. Zodiac isn’t just cutting and pasting designs out of a textbook or an army field manual. He knows more about the history of cryptology than, one suspects, many military cryptologists who know how to do it but don’t necessarily know where the techniques came from.

The ACS president makes a reference to Edgar Allan Poe. Not only does Zodiac know who and what he’s talking about. He has the knowledge to use Poe-designed codes in his next letters. And he has the confidence he’ll be good enough to stump the ACS president.

I still get into debates on certain popular websites with people who think Zodiac is a dimwit and all he’s doing is cutting and pasting designs out of a textbook or an army field manual.

Yeah, right.

The April 20th 1970 code may be circular in nature, hence the circled eights. I won’t post my idea here, because I don’t want to veer too much away from Mr Averly’s find.

OBVIOUSLY I am no cryptologist as you will see below … but my daughter and I were fooling around with the code and came up with something that is probably not interesting at all … and I would bet money has been tried multiple times before. The thought was that if Z was using the Poe reference and cipher info in that book to create his 340 and 13 cipher that maybe he pulled something right out of that article for the other 13 characters. (Also – the 13 hole punches and 13 eyes on the Halloween card might have some sort of meaning). Also in the lengthy write up from Poe’s book – it said something about using the letters or something with a wheel. Perhaps he sent us a wheel that would work and I bet I will be up until 2am trying to figure this out.

We came up with this:

a e n 0 0 k 0 m 0 j n a m
p o e a l l a n e d g a r
15 10 9 0 0 1 0 1 0 6 7 0 5

Again – rudimentary at best and embarrassing at worst …. but my helper is only 8. Nevermind how old I am. it does have a small pattern in the middle ‘001010’ …

I have sufficiently embarrassed myself … but I will keep looking for the other magic 13 letters.

I did put Edgar Allan Poe into the 13 symbol cipher a few years ago, but I was always of the opinion Margie that he would give us his name, but obviously not in full. I’ve just done another brief article combining the 13 symbol cipher and 13 hole postcard, which you have equally considered. Like I said above, I won’t post it here because it may move off Paul_Averly topic too much.

I did put Edgar Allan Poe into the 13 symbol cipher a few years ago, but I was always of the opinion Margie that he would give us his name, but obviously not in full. I’ve just done another brief article combining the 13 symbol cipher and 13 hole postcard, which you have equally considered. Like I said above, I won’t post it here because it may move off Paul_Averly topic too much.

I looked at your article when you mentioned that you had another theory! I too believe that he would give us his ‘name’ as well. And I think you found it !

It’s not a 100% match when you plug it in like the alphabet you plugged in as far as numerical symmetry …but it’s close!

a e n 0 0 k 0 m 0 j n a m
p r o o f k i m r c a c k
15 13 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 15 13 2 2

C and R in crack are misplaced….etc … but Z enjoyed his errors !

Nice One. If you want to find an unusual connection from cipher 2 with cipher 3 Margie, place the proper spelling of Zodiac under the Z O (black triangle) AIK from the bottom line of the 340. You might be surprised.