Someone who randomly murders people is obviously crazy. IMO, the type of nuttiness is irrelevant: almost any psychosis can come to a bad end.

In east london we have a lot of salt beef. Always associated historically with jewish working class here. Suspect same in new york at same time period (60s/70s onwards that i know of. (Edit – to be clear not suggesting z was jewish but that he came from an city where this kind of food available perhaps. Brick lane salt beef is very popular in london. Leaving london many english outside the capiral would barely know what ‘salt beef’ was)

If you left london, many people wouldnt know what salt beef was.

Was salt beef common in california during the Z letter years?
Id guess not right?

As an english man and a londoner. Z’s language certainly does not seem to be that of an englishman in my opinion. I recon most ‘brits’ here would agree.? (Edit – to be clear, i believe him to be an american born. Not born in england.)

Best

The disorganised layout of the letters and writing styles altering from script to print and back and forth suggest to me some mental disorder at least. Often the writing slides and tilts around the page awkwardly in z’s letters. I had a classmate who was unwell who did the same thing when writing.

The cards are better constructed. Z seems to have more experience and ability laying out images than structuring letters. Perhaps he used a typewriter for most his letters, but in ‘becoming’ Z the handwritten letters were another part of z’s vanity and ambition in attempting to disguise his writing or developing multiple writing styles. Even if he seems to occasionally drop into his natural script.

The cards and ‘design’ work seem to have some understanding of design information higerarchy and story telling. Like a film poster. It strikes me that laying out these kind of designs with a few hits of type on an image is his most ‘elegant’ form of experession.
The letters are childlike and awkward, like a duck outta water. Perhaps, simply, he no longer had access to a typewriter.

Through the chain of ‘certified’ z letters he certainly goes through a few sign off identities before finally becoming ‘a citizen’. Not typically the behaviour of a mental sound person id imagine?

John

Through the chain of ‘certified’ z letters he certainly goes through a few sign off identities before finally becoming ‘a citizen’. Not typically the behaviour of a mental sound person id imagine?

John

Yes, but even if there were no letters we could still be confident he was as crazy as a shit house rat.

Karborn: My POI’s mother married an American, possibly a marine, in the early 40s. She was from South Africa; and her last name, probably English. Could her origin have affected Z’s speech patterns as he was growing up?

How someone speaks in real life can be very different from the way they write. Being a big fan on Formula One racing I myself, and many fellow American fans, have picked up quite a bit of "British-isms" naturally. You can see it in our posts on Internet racing forums. Most of the media coverage we get on F1 is British, both print and television, even the commentators hired by American broadcasters are British so the language just sort of creeps into our own.

For instance, using "bin it" or "shunt" for a crash, "gearbox" for transmission, "binders" for brakes, "paddock" for the pit area, and others. These are not words you would use in American racing. Americans not involved in F1 wouldn’t know what the hell you were taking about. Being born and raised in Texas and speaking perfect Texanese, I would never use those words if I had not learned them by listening to Brits.

The words, and their spelling, that Zodiac used is something I have looked into rather extensively and I have concluded it’s evidence he was rather well read, perhaps well educated. Many of the supposed misspellings are actually the archaic spelling of the word and can be found in older literature. Much of that older literature is British in origin so of course it would come across that way. "Salt beef" for example is what we in the US call "corned beef" so that would be something Zodiac picked up from literature most likely. That doesn’t mean it was from British literature however as those words can cross over into older American writing, much like the British terms crossed over to American F1 fans.

I’ve very much in agreement with all this.

Karborn: My POI’s mother married an American, possibly a marine, in the early 40s. She was from South Africa; and her last name, probably English. Could her origin have affected Z’s speech patterns as he was growing up?

I think it’s likely that Z had other people in his family who were… I struggle with the right term, but I imagine he would have had some influence along the lines of being taught good manners and told to do things "properly". Also perhaps a little fuddy duddy, and old fashion. I don’t think his family was very modern so to speak.

It’s an interesting line of inquiry though, because finding a South African link would greatly narrow the pool of possibilities. If there’s one there though I haven’t noticed it, except maybe the vowel swapping.

I’ve always thought the idea of a "schizophrenic gate" was very silly sounding. Not because strange walking habits aren’t common among the mentally ill, but because we don’t know that he even walked like that to begin with.

The monotonal voice on the other hand I think is much more interesting. It is corroborated by several witnesses and there seems to be some agreement as to it’s sound. It’s try Hartnell describes it as a "drawl", but he’s unable to place it regionally. I think that’s telling a drawl is either regional, or idiosyncratic, since the Zodiacs drawl is idiosyncratic I would suggest all of the witnesses are describing the same thing. I think this type of speech characteristic is consistent with some kind of mental disturbance to the speech, the nature of which is uncertain. But I think his speech would have been fairly distinctive. As for say he disguised it, I think it’s almost certain he did, but pretending to have a monotone is not easy, so I don’t believe that this was the way in which he disguised his voice, more likely he altered it just enough.

The mental illness angle gets chewed over again and again with little added. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, I haven’t added that much in most of my ramblings, but it seems like there’s no end to the debate. I would suggest, and I know this sounds a bit presumptious, but I’ve noticed people often shy away from really doing the leg work on the topic. I think it stems from a tendency to treat it as this very personal thing, peoples idea’s about mental illness can often border more on belief’s than knowledge. A lot of it’s based on personal experience (which can actually be very good), but the average person probably doesn’t really have enough personal experience to get a full picture.

I think if you’re serious about this case you owe it to yourself, if you haven’t already, to read some good, reputable books on the subject. Don’t go and get a copy of the DSM from the library though, that’s like trying to learn English by reading a dictionary. It’s a reference work. Don’t bother with the self helpy, or dumbed down books either. Some of the best ones are published by university press and a lot of the books used at universities are also very good, so find out what they are. Books with plenty of cases studies are really good for getting a layman’s understanding of how the diseases work in the real world, after all you don’t have to learn how to treat them, you’re just trying to learn more about their everyday appearance and how they play out.

The Zodiac does appear to display signs of magical thinking and low level delusions. He also unquestionably demonstrates narcissistic and egotistical traits. I would argue that he is fundamentally not age appropriate, not by miles, but his maturity is a little stunted in some area’s.

The magical thinking seems to permeate his themes, so it seems doubtful that it is part of a ruse. Like all serial killers he has an active fantasy world, this suggests that all serial killers are to some degree mentally ill, and it goes it ties in nicely with low level delusions and magical thinking.

I don’t think there can be much doubt that the killer is not of entirely sound mind, although the difficulty is determining the degree and also the differences in opinion as to what it means to be "crazy". Many of use have some odd traits and we’d probably prefer it if people didn’t pathologize them. I would argue that the traits the Zodiac demonstrates are more serious and indicative of a real clinical illness, most likely either bipolar, or schizotypal personality disorder, both of which can vary greatly in severity. This is my working theory anyway, but I’m still doing research and I don’t make that statement with total confidence.

I think each piece of evidence of mental illness helps to corroborate the rest. If he’s delusional he’s more likely to be depressed, if he’s depressed he’s more likely to be delusional, and so on and so forth. I think it’s pretty shaking to argue for total sanity, and I don’t think it’s supported by other cases of serial killing. People are quick to point out that few serial killers are full blown schizophrenics, but that’s a huge mistake, whilst few are full blown, the number that show at least some schizophrenic traits is very high. In fact serial killers seem to fall mostly into the category of high functioning mentally ill and those who’s symptoms are just mild enough to pass for normal.

I’ve always had an awkward gait/walk, and monotone voice, which I got the piss taken out of me for all my life. I now know this is due to being autistic spectrum or whatever the pc brigade like to call it these days. I’m not making a big case for zodiac to be autistic but he does display certain traits consistent with autism. Speaking properly, for instance, which may give rise to the supposed Britishisms, also, and I agree wholeheartedly, the not being age appropriate. This can, I stress can, be related to autism. I’ve only done things in life only if and when I’ve wanted to do them, not because it’s the time most people do them. I only learnt to drive when I was 40,and only because I bought a vintage car. I wouldn’t have bothered otherwise. I agree about not reading very rigid diagnostic works on mental illness, and also be careful about what you view as mental illness(we all have so called autistic traits, so I’m not including autistic spectrum under that term. Try some tests, it’s fun to see where you fit. Not trying to prove anything). I, however, according to simplicity, don’t have a theory of mind, and he knows this for a fact. I’m sure all of my posts have demonstrated this fact. I apologise, therefore, for burdening you all with the ramblings of a loon

There’s literally nothing to suggest he had Autism.

The problem here i think is that you’ve read everything about what Autism is you think every oddity is related to Autism.

As i’ve pointed out before, Schizoid personality disorder (one of many disorders of the zodiac) cleary states "autistic like thinking" – not autism not schizophrenia.

The reason i keep highlighting schizoid PD is because it is the biggest clue as it encompasses everything your saying but accurately.

I agree that personality disorder is a more realistic classification for Zodiac based on the evidence. Autism can coexist with, or be mistaken, for a PD or schizophrenia. I assume he had antisocial personality disorder AKA psychopathy.

All a trained psychologist would have to work with is a bunch of eccentric letters and a handful of witness descriptions. But just maybe, knowing the other factors outlined by egan and I, autism would be considered. I was told that acting and dramatics appeal to autistic people because it allows them to put on a "mask" to socially engage. This reminded me of his elaborate costume at Lake Berryessa.

The reason i am adamant about the null Autistic aspects is because he wrote in a specific manner to play on the minds of people. Its hard to elaborate on that but he knew exactly how to press the right buttons. A Autistic individual even a mildly effected one couldn’t do it like that, that’s not to say Autistics aren’t capable of being interesting psychopathic serial killers.

As for Schizophrenia, if he had gait issues due to his disorder then your talking about a individual that is really heavily effected which doesn’t add up over the entirety of what we know.

Again i point to Schizoid PD,
with this angle your looking for someone that probably became a recluse in 68,
a individual who probably started having financial, drinking problems.
A petty thief, a burgular, a arsonist in 1970 onwards

This offers many good avenues to look at.
He would have been the quiet awkward guy drinking alone in bars.
There was a strip club called "Chichi" near stines murder, that’s the kind of place you’ll find a lonely drunk man.

If you find a man who did any form of drunk disorderly conduct in 69 around such venues get your magnifying glass.

This is a very good Avenue and train of thought.

The reason i am adamant about the null Autistic aspects is because he wrote in a specific manner to play on the minds of people. Its hard to elaborate on that but he knew exactly how to press the right buttons. A Autistic individual even a mildly effected one couldn’t do it like that, that’s not to say Autistics aren’t capable of being interesting psychopathic serial killers.

Suspected serial killer Robert Durst has autism and sent out bizarre letters like Zodiac (lived in California in the late 60s so may have been influenced).

How many years did it take for you to receive a diagnosis of autism? Here it is a minimum of 2 years observation. Why because the multitude of other disorder can readily mimic autism to the untrained eye.

There’s too many things you have to omit to even lightly brush zodiac with autism.

i’ll leave it there.

How many years did it take for you to receive a diagnosis of autism? Here it is a minimum of 2 years observation. Why because the multitude of other disorder can readily mimic autism to the untrained eye.

There’s too many things you have to omit to even lightly brush zodiac with autism.

i’ll leave it there.

It took years as the waiting list is extremely long. I was assessed by a psychiatrist before being referred to a specialist.

My only reason for speculating is I find psychology and this thread fascinating.

I, however, according to simplicity, don’t have a theory of mind, and he knows this for a fact. I’m sure all of my posts have demonstrated this fact. I apologise, therefore, for burdening you all with the ramblings of a loon

Don’t let what one person says bother you, we’re dealing in opinions here and you have a right to yours just as everyone else. You’ve provided valuable insight in the discussion.