Interesting. October 11th was a Saturday. For the Saturday presentation of the Mikado, it would have been matinee performance so in the afternoon. Do you know how long the Mikado play would have been?

Interesting. October 11th was a Saturday. For the Saturday presentation of the Mikado, it would have been matinee performance so in the afternoon. Do you know how long the Mikado play would have been?

No more than what is written in the article, which was found by another great member of this board. But if can identify any poi / suspect as a staff member there, I’d say the 1/m chance will get 1/B..

QT

Interesting. October 11th was a Saturday. For the Saturday presentation of the Mikado, it would have been matinee performance so in the afternoon. Do you know how long the Mikado play would have been?

No more than what is written in the article, which was found by another great member of this board. But if can identify any poi / suspect as a staff member there, I’d say the 1/m chance will get 1/B..

QT

Ah sorry I missed the date, I thought the play was playing around the time of Stine’s murder. Still interesting.

The Mikado didn’t start until a week later. There were rehearsals on that day though.

However, on the night of the Stine murder a Marquis De Sade biopic played at the Golden Gate Penthouse. The movie started at 7:15 that evening (playing time was about 2 hours) which meant Zodiac was out of the theatre around 9:15. It would have been a 9 minute walk to get to the intersection of Mason & Geary.. if you calculate time flagging down a taxi, getting out of the cinema etc. you can place Z at the corner of Washington & Cherry at around 9:55.

I’ve attached the info.

The relevance of this would be, as some of you might know, that De Sade also famously wrote about " the collecting slaves for the after life".

I think this one is a different theater so can’t follow any connection to Sade, yet. But people who had worked at the Curran Theater would be interesting to talk to, for sure.

Another Mikado play, only days after the Stine murder:

Just realized the topic was discussed 5 yrs ago
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?t=2648

QT

Yes, De Sade played at a different theatre. There is no proof the Z was at the Curran Theater, that is at this point pure conjuncture. Zodiac wrote about ‘killing people to collect slaves for his afterlife’ and so did the Marquis De Sade. I am therefore pretty certain Z was familiar with the work of De Sade. This movie played on the night Z killed Paul Stine, the timing matches up with the killing and it’s about a 9 minute walk from where Z would have roughly been calculated to have taken the taxi from.

As I said, the Mikado wasn’t playing that day – there were still rehearsal. So unless he was part of the cast or crew I think it is unlikely he was at the Curran Theater.

My bet would definitely be placing him at De Sade at The Golden Gate Theatre. Timing and everything just seems to match up.

Well, the Sade thing is a point. Additionally, if Mikado was running at Curran from January on, there was time enough to sort of ‘remember’ the lyrics for it. Obviously Z was not precise with that so he might have been a ‘listener’, possibly a worker who was present during the play for multiple times..

QT

Yes, De Sade played at a different theatre. There is no proof the Z was at the Curran Theater, that is at this point pure conjuncture. Zodiac wrote about ‘killing people to collect slaves for his afterlife’ and so did the Marquis De Sade. I am therefore pretty certain Z was familiar with the work of De Sade. This movie played on the night Z killed Paul Stine, the timing matches up with the killing and it’s about a 9 minute walk from where Z would have roughly been calculated to have taken the taxi from.

As I said, the Mikado wasn’t playing that day – there were still rehearsal. So unless he was part of the cast or crew I think it is unlikely he was at the Curran Theater.

My bet would definitely be placing him at De Sade at The Golden Gate Theatre. Timing and everything just seems to match up.

Hi themikado90…
Please provide information and link that proof that Marquis de Sade "wrote about ‘killing people to collect slaves for his afterlife’"

Guess is referring to this one

https://www.reddit.com/r/ZodiacKiller/c … sade_link/

"Possible"…anybody wants to read ‘Juliette’ to verify? I’ve got to warn you, French ‘Siècle de Lumière’, with Sade sitting in a dirty cold prison while writing his obscenities..

Sade’s philosophy, if it can be called so, was actually that there is no afterlife (thus ‘living’ rather now than later). Attention, lots of guys are in prison because of such attitude, just saying.

https://isi.org/modern-age/dostoevsky-v … s-de-sade/

“Before you were born, you were nothing more than an indistinguishable lump of unformed matter. After death, you simply will return to that nebulous state. You are going to become the raw material out of which new beings will be fashioned. Will there be pain in this natural process? No! Pleasure? No! Now, is there anything frightening in this? Certainly not! And yet, people sacrifice pleasure on earth in the hope that pain will be avoided in an after-life. The fools don’t realize that, after death, pain and pleasure cannot exist: there is only the sensationless state of cosmic anonymity: therefore, the rule of life should be … to enjoy oneself!”
― Marquis de Sade

But he indeed was thinking about the ‘afterlife’, after all:

Ibid. p. 285. Juliette is frequently upbraided by her teachers, but is on the lookout too for inconsistencies and weaknesses in those who instruct her. She questions Saint-Fond’s mastery on more than one occasion, for allowing himself to be in debt to others (ibid. p. 245.), and for allowing himself to believe in some form of afterlife (ibid. p. 370.). Meanwhile, she accuses Clairwil (who will eventually die by her hand) of a weakened atheism (ibid. p. 451.).

Thus, yes, it is a good hint. Better than the Egypt version, I’d say; as it is related to pain – and even slaves, too:

“the slave preaches the virtues of kindness and humility to his master, because as a slave he has need of them;but the master, better guided by nature and his passions, has no need to devote himself to anything excepting those things which serve or please him. Be as kind as you wish, if you enjoy such things – but dont demand any reward for having had this pleasure”

Z a Marquis de Sade reader? I’d say yes, guess he was fascinated by it. Good find, actually.

QT

Hi Theforeigner,

Here’s a small part from ‘Philosophy in the Bedroom’:

"Savages, the most independent of men, the nearest to Nature, daily indulge in murder which amongst them goes unpunished. In Sparta, in Lacedaemon, they hunted Helots, just as we in France go on partridge shoots. The freest of people are they who are most friendly to murder: in Mindanao, a man who wishes to commit a murder is raised to the rank of warrior brave, he is straightway decorated with a turban; amongst the Caraguos, one must have killed seven men to obtain the honors of this headdress: the inhabitants of Borneo believe all those they put to death will serve them when they themselves depart life; devout Spaniards made a vow to St. James of Galicia to kill a dozen Americans every day"

And link: https://supervert.com/elibrary/marquis- … he-bedroom

You’ll find more references to this in his book Juliette.

Guess is referring to this one

https://www.reddit.com/r/ZodiacKiller/c … sade_link/

"Possible"…anybody wants to read ‘Juliette’ to verify? I’ve got to warn you, French ‘Siècle de Lumière’, with Sade sitting in a dirty cold prison while writing his obscenities..

Sade’s philosophy, if it can be called so, was actually that there is no afterlife (thus ‘living’ rather now than later). Attention, lots of guys are in prison because of such attitude, just saying.

https://isi.org/modern-age/dostoevsky-v … s-de-sade/

“Before you were born, you were nothing more than an indistinguishable lump of unformed matter. After death, you simply will return to that nebulous state. You are going to become the raw material out of which new beings will be fashioned. Will there be pain in this natural process? No! Pleasure? No! Now, is there anything frightening in this? Certainly not! And yet, people sacrifice pleasure on earth in the hope that pain will be avoided in an after-life. The fools don’t realize that, after death, pain and pleasure cannot exist: there is only the sensationless state of cosmic anonymity: therefore, the rule of life should be … to enjoy oneself!”
― Marquis de Sade

But he indeed was thinking about the ‘afterlife’, after all:

Ibid. p. 285. Juliette is frequently upbraided by her teachers, but is on the lookout too for inconsistencies and weaknesses in those who instruct her. She questions Saint-Fond’s mastery on more than one occasion, for allowing himself to be in debt to others (ibid. p. 245.), and for allowing himself to believe in some form of afterlife (ibid. p. 370.). Meanwhile, she accuses Clairwil (who will eventually die by her hand) of a weakened atheism (ibid. p. 451.).

Thus, yes, it is a good hint. Better than the Egypt version, I’d say; as it is related to pain – and even slaves, too:

“the slave preaches the virtues of kindness and humility to his master, because as a slave he has need of them;but the master, better guided by nature and his passions, has no need to devote himself to anything excepting those things which serve or please him. Be as kind as you wish, if you enjoy such things – but dont demand any reward for having had this pleasure”

Z a Marquis de Sade reader? I’d say yes, guess he was fascinated by it. Good find, actually.

QT

Correct, De Sade himself did not believe in an afterlife but a few of his main characters did.

I actually hadn’t seen that link above yet. I think De Sade is always a point of interest for these kind of serial killers – BTK, Ian Brady and Myra Hyndley all shared an interest in him. I have read De Sade a lot over time and I’ve always thought it is very likely Z was familiar with his work….. it’s not a million miles away from killing the most dangerous game of all, too.

Also, the biggest find here is of course not that Zodiac was possibly a De Sade reader but we have a very likely location where he could have been that night; timings match up, a movie that would have sparked his interest, it was advertised for days in the newspapers that he loved to read… Maybe it would also explain his random attack (read; breaking the M.O.?) Perhaps the movie set of a need to kill and he jumped in the first taxi cab he saw? Obviously, this is pure conjecture at this point.

FWIW, Zodiac’s version of "As Some Day it May Happen" (the "I’ve got a little list" song) isn’t from The Mikado per se. Zodiac’s version doesn’t match the theatrical version. That’s because he had heard the Groucho Marx version, which was available on an album prior to the Z crimes.

Michael Cole covers this in Zodiac Revisited (2nd book, page 88), and it’s been discussed on the forums before. When you see the three versions side-by-side – the original, Groucho’s version, and Z’s version – it’s obvious Zodiac was quoting Groucho’s version and not the original. It’s also obvious Z misunderstood and misquoted some of Marx’s lyrics, to boot.

In other words, trying to link Z to productions of The Mikado may not be fruitful. Someone posted a San Francisco Chronicle story about the SFPD’s chase down the Mikado rabbit hole. SFPD learned pretty quickly that the lyrics in Zodiac’s letter were incorrect. They theorized that Zodiac might have sung the part of Ko-Ko and was recalling the lyrics from memory (hence the differences from the original), so they interviewed people who had played Ko-Ko in area productions of The Mikado, to no avail.

FWIW, Zodiac’s version of "As Some Day it May Happen" (the "I’ve got a little list" song) isn’t from The Mikado per se. Zodiac’s version doesn’t match the theatrical version. That’s because he had heard the Groucho Marx version, which was available on an album prior to the Z crimes.

Michael Cole covers this in Zodiac Revisited (2nd book, page 88), and it’s been discussed on the forums before. When you see the three versions side-by-side – the original, Groucho’s version, and Z’s version – it’s obvious Zodiac was quoting Groucho’s version and not the original. It’s also obvious Z misunderstood and misquoted some of Marx’s lyrics, to boot.

In other words, trying to link Z to productions of The Mikado may not be fruitful. Someone posted a San Francisco Chronicle story about the SFPD’s chase down the Mikado rabbit hole. SFPD learned pretty quickly that the lyrics in Zodiac’s letter were incorrect. They theorized that Zodiac might have sung the part of Ko-Ko and was recalling the lyrics from memory (hence the differences from the original), so they interviewed people who had played Ko-Ko in area productions of The Mikado, to no avail.

The Groucho Marx theory was recently debunked and quite soundly IMO. It happened recently with almost no reaction from long term members.